This must be said.

[D20ragon]

We'll begin with a box, and the plural is boxes,
But the plural of ox becomes oxen, not oxes.
One fowl is a goose, but two are called geese,
Yet the plural of moose should never be meese.
You may find a lone mouse or a nest full of mice,
Yet the plural of house is houses, not hice.

If the plural of man is always called men,
Why shouldn't the plural of pan be called pen?
If I speak of my foot and show you my feet,
And I give you a boot, would a pair be called beet?
If one is a tooth and a whole set are teeth,
Why shouldn't the plural of booth be called beeth?

Then one may be that, and three would be those,
Yet hat in the plural would never be hose,
And the plural of cat is cats, not cose.
We speak of a brother and also of brethren,
But though we say mother, we never say methren.
Then the masculine pronouns are he, his and him,
But imagine the feminine: she, shis and shim!

Let's face it - English is a crazy language.
There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger;
Neither apple nor pine in pineapple.
English muffins weren't invented in England .

We take English for granted, but if we explore its paradoxes,
We find that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square,
And a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.
And why is it that writers write, but fingers don't fing,
Grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham?
Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend?
If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them,
What do you call it?

If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught?
If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?

Sometimes I think all the folks who grew up speaking English
Should be committed to an asylum for the verbally insane.
In what other language do people recite at a play and play at a recital?

We ship by truck but send cargo by ship...
We have noses that run and feet that smell.
We park in a driveway and drive in a parkway.
And how can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same,
While a wise man and a wise guy are opposites?

You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language
In which your house can burn up as it burns down,
In which you fill in a form by filling it out,
And in which an alarm goes off by going on.

By Richard Lederer

I just thought this must be said.

[tomandtish]

This is so awesome....

and proves that English is a language defind more by the exceptions rather than the rules.

[Kneenibble]

This was written by an author named Richard Lederer and was part of a published work, so please remember to give credit.

[D20ragon]

Yes,I know. Not trying to take credit,just agreeing wholeheartedly. I didn't know who it was by,thanks for telling me.

[Heliomance]

Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation,
I will teach you in my verse
Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse
I will keep you, Susy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy.
Tear in eye your dress you'll tear,
So shall I! Oh, hear my prayer,
Pray, console your loving poet,
Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!
Just compare heart, beard and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain.
(Mind the latter, how it's written).
Made has not the sound of bade,
Say said, pay-paid, laid, but plaid.
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as vague and ague,
But be careful how you speak,
Say break, steak, but bleak and streak.
Previous, precious, fuchsia, via,
Pipe, snipe, recipe and choir,
Cloven, oven, how and low,
Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery:
Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles.
Exiles, similes, reviles.
Wholly, holly, signal, signing.
Thames, examining, combining
Scholar, vicar, and cigar,
Solar, mica, war, and far.
From "desire": desirable--admirable from "admire."
Lumber, plumber, bier, but brier.
Chatham, brougham, renown, but known.
Knowledge, done, but gone and tone,
One, anemone. Balmoral.
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel,
Gertrude, German, wind, and mind.
Scene, Melpomene, mankind,
Tortoise, turquoise, chamois-leather,
Reading, reading, heathen, heather.
This phonetic labyrinth
Gives moss, gross, brook, brooch, ninth, plinth.
Billet does not end like ballet;
Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet;
Blood and flood are not like food,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Banquet is not nearly parquet,
Which is said to rime with "darky."
Viscous, Viscount, load, and broad.
Toward, to forward, to reward.
And your pronunciation's O.K.,
When you say correctly: croquet.
Rounded, wounded, grieve, and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive, and live,
Liberty, library, heave, and heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven,
We say hallowed, but allowed,
People, leopard, towed, but vowed.
Mark the difference, moreover,
Between mover, plover, Dover,
Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police, and lice.
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label,
Petal, penal, and canal,
Wait, surmise, plait, promise, pal.
Suit, suite, ruin, circuit, conduit,
Rime with "shirk it" and "beyond it."
But it is not hard to tell,
Why it's pall, mall, but Pall Mall.
Muscle, muscular, gaol, iron,
Timber, climber, bullion, lion,
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, and chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor,
Ivy, privy, famous, clamour
And enamour rime with hammer.
*****, hussy, and possess,
Desert, but dessert, address.
Golf, wolf, countenance, lieutenants.
Hoist, in lieu of flags, left pennants.
River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,
Doll and roll and some and home.
Stranger does not rime with anger.
Neither does devour with clangour.
Soul, but foul and gaunt but aunt.
Font, front, won't, want, grand, and grant.
Shoes, goes, does. Now first say: finger.
And then: singer, ginger, linger,
Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, and gauge,
Marriage, foliage, mirage, age.
Query does not rime with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Dost, lost, post; and doth, cloth, loth;
Job, Job; blossom, bosom, oath.
Though the difference seems little,
We say actual, but victual.
Seat, sweat; chaste, caste.; Leigh, eight, height;
Put, nut; granite, and unite.
Reefer does not rime with deafer,
Feoffer does, and zephyr, heifer.
Dull, bull, Geoffrey, George, ate, late,
Hint, pint, Senate, but sedate.
Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,
Science, conscience, scientific,
Tour, but our and succour, four,
Gas, alas, and Arkansas.
Sea, idea, guinea, area,
Psalm, Maria, but malaria,
Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean,
Doctrine, turpentine, marine.
Compare alien with Italian,
Dandelion with battalion.
Sally with ally, yea, ye,
Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, key, quay.
Say aver, but ever, fever.
Neither, leisure, skein, receiver.
Never guess--it is not safe:
We say calves, valves, half, but Ralph.
Heron, granary, canary,
Crevice and device, and eyrie,
Face but preface, but efface,
Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.
Large, but target, gin, give, verging,
Ought, out, joust, and scour, but scourging,
Ear but earn, and wear and bear
Do not rime with here, but ere.
Seven is right, but so is even,
Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen,
Monkey, donkey, clerk, and jerk,
Asp, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.
Pronunciation--think of psyche--!
Is a paling, stout and spikey,
Won't it make you lose your wits,
Writing "groats" and saying "grits"?
It's a dark abyss or tunnel,
Strewn with stones, like rowlock, gunwale,
Islington and Isle of Wight,
Housewife, verdict, and indict!
Don't you think so, reader, rather,
Saying lather, bather, father?
Finally: which rimes with "enough"
Though, through, plough, cough, hough, or tough?
Hiccough has the sound of "cup."
My advice is--give it up!

~G. Nolst Trenite

[Haruki-kun]

nor ham in hamburger

Er.... well, that's because Hamburg, Germany....

[Tebryn]

And English Muffins were indeed invented in England.

[D20ragon]

Hey,I'm just a messenger.

[Elder Tsofu]

Hey,I'm just a messenger.

But you made the decision to bring the message? :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

I love those poems.

[Aedilred]

Worm and storm,
In the part of the country where proper English still be spoken, those two rhyme. :smallbiggrin:

[Heliomance]

In the part of the country where proper English still be spoken, those two rhyme. :smallbiggrin:

Really? How on earth do you pronounce them? I can't make them sound the same without one or both sounding ridiculous.

[Hawkflight]

And English Muffins were indeed invented in England.

Just saying, no they weren't. They were invented by an Englishman in NYC.

[Aedilred]

Really? How on earth do you pronounce them? I can't make them sound the same without one or both sounding ridiculous.
All the "w-rm" words are pronounced phonetically. So "worm" rhymes with "storm". Otherwise how can you tell the difference between a worm and a wyrm?! :smalltongue:

[BWR]

English pronunciation and spelling makes a lot more sense if you study older forms of the language.

[The Extinguisher]

But every language has its exceptions. We just forget about the hundreds of words that actually follow the rules.

[factotum]

The reason for all these weirdities about plurals and the like is because English isn't really a single language--it has some basis in Anglo-Saxon, but then you've got to add the Norman French that came in with William the Conqueror on top of that. (Fun fact: this is the reason why English is one of the few languages in the world where the meat of an animal is named something different to the animal itself--it's because the animals were looked after by the Anglo-Saxon peasants, but the meat was eaten by their Norman overlords; thus "cow" comes from the Anglo-Saxon, whereas "beef" is from the French). Then you get the tendency for English to nick any cool-sounding word from the languages spoken in the Empire (which is where things like pyjamas and juggernaut come from). Finally, there's the way that plurals which are commonly used tend to change over time, whereas ones that aren't stay as they were--see "knife" and "knives" compared to "dwarf" and "dwarfs".

[SiuiS]

Made and bade are identical.

And the plural of dwarves has been in popular usage for a very, very long time, with dwarfs being a correctly spelled word because an object dwarfs an item which is dwarfed by it.

Storm and worm? I think you're right, and we've just used worm as "were-m" for a long time out of habit.

[gooddragon1]

Firstly:

Stand Up
Sit Down
Stand Down
Sit Up

Next:

db
qp

Lastly:

I had some fun much earlier on this forum...


Sorry, but this comment has been stored for so long...

What ho? I'm not sure which ho you refer to...

Also...

...and what have you?

>Pocket lint at the moment my good sir.

...if you will.

>No, I won't, and you can't make me.

To which I add: "If I may..."

>No you most certainly may not. In fact, I both expressly forbid it and forbid it expressly.

EDIT:

Why do you have to append 'I say' to the beginning? I already know that you're saying that. Well, you're not even really saying it, you're just typing it.

Mwa ha ha ha ha. Nyah. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3262/2692068123_19785589c1_m.jpg

[BWR]

The reason for all these weirdities about plurals and the like is because English isn't really a single language--it has some basis in Anglo-Saxon, but then you've got to add the Norman French that came in with William the Conqueror on top of that.


Pedant mode activate!
English is very much a Germanic language and if you removed the OE inheritance you wouldn't have anything but a bunch of random words left. The Norman French influence is far less than is commonly made out. Sure, we got a lot of words but these are words, not grammar. Also, lots of detail words or synonyms is not the same as primary function words. One need merely look at the most commonly used words in English and you will find practically all of them are inherited directly from OE. It isn't exactly impossible to create sentences in English without using actual English words, but try making sensible everyday language without pronouns, prepositions, articles, basic verbs and nouns or other words that aren't derived from OE.

If you removed the Norman (and all other non-English language elements) influence and kept the OE, you'd be left with a much poorer language in terms of number of words and detail, but still a fully functional language. The reverse is not true.

[BWR]

Made and bade are identical.

And the plural of dwarves has been in popular usage for a very, very long time, with dwarfs being a correctly spelled word because an object dwarfs an item which is dwarfed by it.

'bade' is pronounced the same as 'bad', not 'maid'.

'dwarves' as the plural of 'dwarf' is indeed old, but 'dwarfs' was the most common plural until Tolkien came along

[SiuiS]

'bade' is pronounced the same as 'bad', not 'maid'.

I've never heard it as such. But I am thinking bade in the sense of bidding.
E: huh. Dictionary lists both as valid pronunciations. Learn sommat new e'ery day.


'dwarves' as the plural of 'dwarf' is indeed old, but 'dwarfs' was the most common plural until Tolkien came along

Well if you really want to go back, there's also douroughs. Goodness, it took me seven chapters to figure out the bloke was a dwarf! Still pronounced it dough-rough in my head though.

[Sholos]

But every language has its exceptions. We just forget about the hundreds of words that actually follow the rules.

I'm trying to think of a German word that is an exception to pronunciation rules and don't know any. But that might be my limited knowledge of the German language. The issue with English is that there are just so many exceptions to the "rules". So very many more than other languages have, and it's largely due to the fact that English is a whole bunch of different rulesets combined and mashed up.

[Heliomance]

I've never heard it as such. But I am thinking bade in the sense of bidding.

That is indeed the sense it is being used in. I suspect (recent) linguistic drift is responsible for the dictionary saying "baid" is a valid pronunciation, traditionally it's definitely "bad".

[Eldan]

I'm trying to think of a German word that is an exception to pronunciation rules and don't know any. But that might be my limited knowledge of the German language. The issue with English is that there are just so many exceptions to the "rules". So very many more than other languages have, and it's largely due to the fact that English is a whole bunch of different rulesets combined and mashed up.

I can't think of any either, and I speak German. There's a few letters that can have more than one sound associated with, though. "V", in German, can be close to "F" ("Vor") or "W" ("Velo", Latin words). "Y" can be either "ü" ("Gymnastik", "Ypsilon", Greek words in general), "i" ("Schwyz") or rarely even as "J".
So, there's a few words where some guessing is involved if you don't know them, but they are rare. Especially "Y", which is a very rare letter in German and almost exclusively used to render foreign words.

[Aedilred]

The big culprit in pronunciation terms is probably the Great Vowel Shift, which started changing the way words were pronounced round about the time printing arrived and started standardising spelling. As for irregularities with plurals and the like, well, who knows, although English is hardly unique in that respect.

[BWR]

I know more than one person who would cringe in pain at the term 'Great Vowel Shift', which was not so unique as the term indicates, and started quite a bit earlier than most books would have you believe.

[SaintRidley]

BWR, thanks for saying basically everything I would have said had I seen this earlier.

[FinnLassie]

I'd say this video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s) is somewhat relevant to the thread's topic.

[Atreyu the Masked LLama]

Ow!! Now my brain hurts, and you all wonder why I never leave SMBG!

*retreats from forum*

[SiuiS]

That is indeed the sense it is being used in. I suspect (recent) linguistic drift is responsible for the dictionary saying "baid" is a valid pronunciation, traditionally it's definitely "bad".

well, to be fair we have this problem with the word bathe, too. Traditional British pronunciation is a far cry only sometimes from American, but it is indeed a far cry in those cases.

I remember seeing that on TV once as a wee filly. A gent was talking to a British woman about dog grooming, and she said they would "bath" the dog, and he handled it with a terrible lack of grace. "Bath? You mean bathe (bay-ð)? We say bathe."
"Well we invented the language, so you'd be wrong, not I."

I was quite distressed the American was such a jerk.

[Zrak]

I'm not sure I follow. The American claimed to have invented the language and told the Englishwoman she was wrong?

[SiuiS]

I'm not sure I follow. The American claimed to have invented the language and told the Englishwoman she was wrong?

The American said "you speak English funny/wrong!" And the Brit woman was all >:-\

I sided with British lady. It's different, but judgement is wrong.

[No brains]

Chinese has my vote for weirdest language because of this abomination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-Eating_Poet_in_the_Stone_Den).

[Zrak]

I guess I would consider her response much more rude than his, at least from how they came across in your post. Then again, I didn't see it, so I can't really say.

[Heliomance]

well, to be fair we have this problem with the word bathe, too. Traditional British pronunciation is a far cry only sometimes from American, but it is indeed a far cry in those cases.

I remember seeing that on TV once as a wee filly. A gent was talking to a British woman about dog grooming, and she said they would "bath" the dog, and he handled it with a terrible lack of grace. "Bath? You mean bathe (bay-ð)? We say bathe."
"Well we invented the language, so you'd be wrong, not I."

I was quite distressed the American was such a jerk.

I've only ever heard "bathe" pronounced bay-ð, but it's perfectly acceptable to use "bath" as a verb here, yes.

[BWR]

The final, silent -e at the end tends to indicate a preceding single vowel is long, so it's no wonder people look at the way a word is spelled and overcorrect.
but 'bade' rhyming with 'bad' is the more correct of the two, if we are considering origin: the past tense of 'biddan' ('bid') in OE is 'bæd', which is pronounced almost identically with 'bad'.

[Zrak]

I think it's weird to argue that a spelling, meaning, or pronunciation is more correct because it existed first. It happens all the time in debates over terms and pronunciations, but I find it leads to an absurd conclusion; if the spelling/pronunciation/interpretation closer to the Old English root is correct because of its closer proximity to Old English, it seems to follow that we should all just go back to speaking Old English, as it is the most correct form of English by virtue of being the closest to itself.

[BWR]

That works for me.

[SaintRidley]

The final, silent -e at the end tends to indicate a preceding single vowel is long, so it's no wonder people look at the way a word is spelled and overcorrect.
but 'bade' rhyming with 'bad' is the more correct of the two, if we are considering origin: the past tense of 'biddan' ('bid') in OE is 'bæd', which is pronounced almost identically with 'bad'.

Just remember that OE vowels, particularly those in strong verbs, have morphed over time as the language has changed - we don't pronounce bid with the same vowel as the Anglo-Saxons pronounced biddan with, after all. Another example: Drifan (drive) becomes Draf (drove) in the past tense.

[BWR]

Yes, but the vowel in 'biddan' short, and the short vowels haven't changed as much as the long ones and diphthongs. It's not a perfect match, but the /æ/ is pretty close the modern English short 'a' in e.g. 'bad'. Far, far closer than a long 'a' sound.

[SaintRidley]

Yes, but the vowel in 'biddan' short, and the short vowels haven't changed as much as the long ones and diphthongs. It's not a perfect match, but the /æ/ is pretty close the modern English short 'a' in e.g. 'bad'. Far, far closer than a long 'a' sound.

The vowel in biddan is short, in length, but is more similar to Spanish i than it is to the i in bid.

Of course, the way that /æ/ changes in the transition from Old to modern English is, like every other vowel, inconsistent. Sprecan -> spræc became speak -> spoke, after all.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that OE vowels don't make particularly good models for how modern English words should be pronounced. Pronouncing bade either way works, really. There's no sense making a big debate of it. Or perhaps I should say "Ne is ræd to macianne him micele rædelse."

[SiuiS]

I've only ever heard "bathe" pronounced bay-ð, but it's perfectly acceptable to use "bath" as a verb here, yes.

All I'm hearing is that I still really don't know how ae is supposed to be pronounced.

[Grinner]

All I'm hearing is that I still really don't know how ae is supposed to be pronounced.

To confuse the matter further, I always thought it was a long i, pronounced like "aye".

[Aedilred]

All I'm hearing is that I still really don't know how ae is supposed to be pronounced.
In IPA, æ is a short "a" (as in "cat", assuming you speak a relatively normative dialect of English). As far as I'm aware, this was also roughly the expected pronunciation in Old English. In modern English, in those words where the lettering is still used, the pronunciation for it could have gone anywhere - a long e, a long i, or an "ay" sound.

[SiuiS]

In IPA, æ is a short "a" (as in "cat", assuming you speak a relatively normative dialect of English). As far as I'm aware, this was also roughly the expected pronunciation in Old English. In modern English, in those words where the lettering is still used, the pronunciation for it could have gone anywhere - a long e, a long i, or an "ay" sound.

Ah, then the solution is obvious isn't it?

*punches modern English in the kidney* Stop it!

[BWR]

More confusingly, 'ae' in Latin is pronounced closer to 'aye'.

[Aliquid]

'dwarves' as the plural of 'dwarf' is indeed old, but 'dwarfs' was the most common plural until Tolkien came along
Tolkien actually admitted he made a mistake by spelling it 'dwarves'. He noted that technically the plural should be 'dwarrows'.

[hamishspence]

The statement was that "the only correct plural in English is dwarfs" but also, that he chooses to use "dwarves" to make it clear that it's not short people he's talking about, but folkloric beings.

And that "dwarrows" would have been more technically correct in that case, but less clear- so he chose "dwarves" instead.