Dexterity Melee (And really small)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically looking to create a melee character that depends on Dexterity.

I want to get the Dervish Dance feat for Dex is attack and damage with Scimtars (which also means high Crit chance). Until I learned it prevents two weapon fighting. Now I'm considering Shadow Blade, an agile enchantment or sword of graceful strikes if it's possible for me to shrink them.

This way I have DEX for: AC, Reflex, Initiative, Stealth, Attack & Damage

And the idea with going smaller is for:

1. Fun and kicks
2. Attack and AC Bonuses
3. Stealth Bonuses
4. DEX bonus according to the Monster Manual

So any advice in how to optimize a dexterity melee character and how to fight well and be the smallest size possible (and play well as being that small) would be most appreciated.

[Psyren]

You generally don't want to go smaller than Small because then you have to enter a creature's square to attack it (provokes), plus you don't threaten squares (no AoOs or flanking of your own), and you start to have trouble justifying reaching a creature's vitals.

Speaking of flanking, one of the best ways for Dex melee to be effective is bonus damage of some kind. Dervish Dance is good, but not quite enough on its own because you're not getting the multipliers or PA that a Strength meleer is. The best ways for more damage are either sneak attack, or a mechanic like the Magus' Spell Combat.

[Captnq]

Here's the thing with going smaller. You basically need to depend on weapon enhancements over your abilities. Your class levels should be focused on getting you extra attacks, and your equipment should be focused on doing all the heavy lifting as far as damage is concerned.

Or go spellcaster. Size means very little to a spellcaster.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Here's the thing with going smaller. You basically need to depend on weapon enhancements over your abilities. Your class levels should be focused on getting you extra attacks, and your equipment should be focused on doing all the heavy lifting as far as damage is concerned.

Or go spellcaster. Size means very little to a spellcaster.

Not if Dexterity applies to damage.

[Vortenger]

Shadow Blade as in the feat from ToB? Please be aware it adds dex to your damage, whereas the Agile enhancement replaces strength entirely. They stack. For two feats and a specific weapon enhancement (across 3.5/PF boundaries) that doesn't seem too unreasonable. Helps TWF'ers and 1H'ers do something viable for damage.

And as others said, rolling a d2 for damage means diddly if you add your sky-high dex mod twice or sneak attack to each hit.

[Red Fel]

The X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread strikes again!

For Dex-to-damage alone, you've got a whopping 12 different options. Plus four on Dex-to-hit, and one on Dex-to-hit-and-damage. Plus a bunch of other stuff.

Go nuts!

EDIT: Almost forgot. If you're interested in a good tripping build, you can do some great stuff with feats and small size. Consider Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk from Races of the Wild. The former lets you enter the square of a creature two sizes larger than you (instead of the usual three) without provoking AoOs, and gives you soft cover when you do (+4 AC). The latter puts three tactical options on top of that - first, when you move into a two-size-larger opponent's square, he is treated as flat-footed and you gain +4 to confirm crits; second, any round you're in such a square and fight defensively or use Combat Expertise, attacks against you have a 50% chance to hit the big guy instead; and third, you can attempt a trip with Dex, which cannot be counter-tripped and deprives your opponent of his size bonus on the opposed check.

Oh, and think about this tidbit - technically, that second option can be used with a tanking ally, as a caster or ranged combatant. You can hide underneath your beefy friend and there's a 50% chance any attacks against you will hit him instead.

As I mentioned, there are advantages to a trip build springing from this. Consider, for example, Pebble Underfoot from Dragon Compendium. You gain +4 to trip attempts against creatures two size categories larger than you, and they can't counter-trip.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Note - Underfoot Combat (RotW) removes the AoO from moving into the square of an opponent 2 sizes bigger than you. I'd advise combining it with Confound the Bigfolk (same book).

[mabriss lethe]

It seems like no matter what link I choose, lately, my advice stays pretty constant.

If you want to go for a size below small, your best bet is to work in a one level dip into Pyrokineticist (or better yet, one of the other energy variants.) The fire lash ability works like a whip, and no matter how small you become, its reach is still 15', nor does the damage die for the ability change with your size. Because it's sort of a whip, you won't be missing out on threatening spaces if you go for a tiny race(you'll be losing out on them already since you're using a whip), and since it functions as a ranged touch attack, it's keyed off of Dex from the start. However, you don't get get to add strength damage, but that's not really a loss if you're using smaller races. Power attack, though, still works normally.

[Metahuman1]

Being Smaller then Small can work.

You need movement. The Ardent's Freedom Mantle and The clock Soul Meld that gives perfect maneuverability flight (forget the name.), come to mind as things to nab.

And you'll absolutely want the feats Underfoot Combatant and Confound the Big Folk. Knowledge devotion is good too.

I'd also consider using the Swordsages Giant Killing Style Stance from the setting sun school. +2 to Hit and +4 to damage per hit while in this stance, per size category you are smaller then your target.

Consider that with a Dip of 1 level into Ardent, some Construct Graphs form MMII to get around sucking up Str penaltys, and a Totemist chassie with the unarmed swordsage AFC for tones of attacks.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Some good feats here which I like.

I can see the potential in tripping, but I like the idea of just doing massive damage and slaying giant guys easily.

Also, what methods are there of shrinking size (other than reduce person pernamency) that I could use? Or simply where can I find very small playable races?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Muckdwellers (Serpent Kingdom) and Pixies (MM) are both Tiny.

The compression psionic power can reduce yur size multiple stages, with augmentation.

[tyckspoon]

Muckdwellers (Serpent Kingdom) and Pixies (MM) are both Tiny.

The compression psionic power can reduce yur size multiple stages, with augmentation.

Pixies are Small. Grigs are Tiny, and are also playable, although for most uses aren't as good as Pixies. Jermlaine (MM2) and Muckdwellers are the options I know of for LA 0 Tiny races, but then you have to deal with being a repugnant fairy-goblin-thing or a stunted pseudo-lizardman.. (on the plus side, Jermlaine have pretty good Dex and Wisdom mods, so if you really really want to just be as small as possible.. they make half-decent PsyWars and Swordsages, so you can get your Shadowblade Compression on and poke people to death with your Fine-sized martial arts.)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Muckdwellers (Serpent Kingdom) and Pixies (MM) are both Tiny.

The compression psionic power can reduce yur size multiple stages, with augmentation.

Interesting, what stats would Muckdwellers have as a player though?
Because it has no "As a character" section.

As for compression, interesting but too temporary for my liking's.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Pixies are Small. Grigs are Tiny, and are also playable, although for most uses aren't as good as Pixies. Jermlaine (MM2) and Muckdwellers are the options I know of for LA 0 Tiny races, but then you have to deal with being a repugnant fairy-goblin-thing or a stunted pseudo-lizardman.. (on the plus side, Jermlaine have pretty good Dex and Wisdom mods, so if you really really want to just be as small as possible.. they make half-decent PsyWars and Swordsages, so you can get your Shadowblade Compression on and poke people to death with your Fine-sized martial arts.)

Also interesting, but same question in regards to how do I know what stats to apply as a player?

[Gwazi Magnum]

So I also found Hengeyoki - Sparrow Form where in 3.5 has no LA so at level one I'm at Fine size.

However, it has no listed method of damage (and as a sparrow I'm assuming no hands so no weapons). So are there non-spell ways to make the sparrow do damage? Morph arms? Bite attack? Wielding a weapon in his talons?

[Metahuman1]

Metapower (Linked Power + Synchronicity) on Compression will allow you to safely refresh it regularly with out cutting into your action economy. Combine with Incarnum Recharge Trick and you don't run the risk of running out of PP on top of that.

Throw on the freedom Mantle for swift action dimension door, a level of factotum with jack of all trades and knowledge devotion, and a level of swordsage.


Now, here's the dirty trick. See if you can get your Dm to agree to letting you make an affiliation that let's you have the effects of a 1st level shadow hand stance as a membership benefit on constantly, including qualifying for effecting feats. Then take Confound the Big Folk and Underfoot Combatant, Knowledge devotion, weapons Finesse, Shadow Blade Strike and if you and squeeze them in, The TWF line.

Here's what it's gonna look like.

Before Combat, enter Giant Killing Style Stance, and at the outset, roll knowledge checks to fire up knowledge devotion.

Manifest compression, Linked power kicks in and you get Synchronicity, which get's you a standard action, so you don't loose any actions. Next, Manifest your power form your freedom Mantle and swift action dimension door to your opponent's square.

Now, full attack, Adding Dex mod + Knowledge devotion check + 2 per size category difference between you and target + BaB + Enchantment bonus on weapons + flat size bonus too hit and Dex Mod + Weapon damage + Enchantments + Knowledge Devotion Bonus + 4 per size category difference between you and opponent. Keep full attacking kill he's dead, then swift action teleport to the next foe. Reapply compression as needed.

Edit:

By Technicality Unarmed strikes work, and Soulmelds form Magic of Incarnum work if you bind them.