Shadow Evocation

[DruidAlanon]

Can a shadow evocation create a Leomund's Shelter? I had an argument about that. Will it function as a real Shelter, protecting from weather etc?

[Phelix-Mu]

I've often wondered about this. My understanding is that some Will saves can be voluntarily failed, but I'm not sure if just any Will saves could be failed. If one fails the Will save, then I think it would work as the normal spell that is being copied.

Totally not an expert, though. One will be along shortly, no doubt.

[eggynack]

I think that it completely fails to block out weather, and that it has standard failure chance, just as any shadow evocation would. According to the text, "Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect," and, "Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell." Thus, the weather, which I think qualifies as a mass of objects, would automatically disbelieve the shelter, and the shelter would therefore have no effect on the objects.

[HaikenEdge]

Can a shadow evocation create a Leomund's Shelter? I had an argument about that. Will it function as a real Shelter, protecting from weather etc?

I assume the weather, being mindless, wouldn't need to make a Will save to disbelieve, so the shadow Leomund's Shelter would protect you from only 20% of the weather.

[Phelix-Mu]

I think that it completely fails to block out weather, and that it has standard failure chance, just as any shadow evocation would. According to the text, "Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect," and, "Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell." Thus, the weather, which I think qualifies as a mass of objects, would automatically disbelieve the shelter, and the shelter would therefore have no effect on the objects.

This sounds both accurate and humorous. You may believe you are protected from the elements, but the elements know better. While you feel warm, you are, in fact, covered in snow and close to death.

[Morithias]

This sounds both accurate and humorous. You may believe you are protected from the elements, but the elements know better. While you feel warm, you are, in fact, covered in snow and close to death.

Until you pump the shelter to 160% real, making it so the elements think its' more real than you do.

[eggynack]

Until you pump the shelter to 160% real, making it so the elements think its' more real than you do.
I don't think that works here. The reality or lack thereof of the shadow evocation doesn't matter, because a success on the save just causes the spell to fail automatically.

[Morithias]

I don't think that works here. The reality or lack thereof of the shadow evocation doesn't matter, because a success on the save just causes the spell to fail automatically.

Hmmm, sorry I thought we were talking about a shadowcraft mage.

I stand corrected.

[HaikenEdge]

I don't think that works here. The reality or lack thereof of the shadow evocation doesn't matter, because a success on the save just causes the spell to fail automatically.


If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur.
This seems to say that, even if a save was made, the spell still functions at 20% effectiveness.

[eggynack]

Hmmm, sorry I thought we were talking about a shadowcraft mage.

I stand corrected.
Do shadowcraft mages have any way around the restriction I noted?

This seems to say that, even if a save was made, the spell still functions at 20% effectiveness.
Indeed, but as I quoted from the text, if the effect is a non-damaging one, then a successful save causes the spell to do nothing. Such is the nature of things.

[holywhippet]

Shadow evocations are supposed to be quasi-real. Shadows and creatures from the plane of shadows can have an effect on the prime material plane while they are there.

[HaikenEdge]

Indeed, but as I quoted from the text, if the effect is a non-damaging one, then a successful save causes the spell to do nothing. Such is the nature of things.

I'm not clear on this. Shadow Evocation's description seems to be saying that, if the effect is nondamaging, it's 20% effective, or 20% likely to work. Secure Shelter from the SRD (which I'm assuming is based on the spell in question) allows no save.

Also, now that I look at it, Secure Shelter is a Conjuration spell, so you can't Shadow Evocation a Secure Shelter, though you can Shadow Conjuration one.

[eggynack]

I'm not clear on this. Shadow Evocation's description seems to be saying that, if the effect is nondamaging, it's 20% effective, or 20% likely to work. Secure Shelter from the SRD (which I'm assuming is based on the spell in question) allows no save.

Also, now that I look at it, Secure Shelter is a Conjuration spell, so you can't Shadow Evocation a Secure Shelter, though you can Shadow Conjuration one.
Shadow conjuration is a different matter. In that case, the text says that the given result is 20% likely to occur, rather than a 20% effect being applied to each raindrop, so only one-fifth of the raindrops are stopped by the shelter. Shadow evocation, which isn't the relevant spell in this case, as you noted, works differently. Of non-damaging effects, shadow evocation says, "Against disbelievers, they have no effect."

[Pokelord2]

This thread has made my night. I'm totally going to argue with my GM now that I 'fool' my party into resting in 80% of the elements. Make a will save and if you fail you don't realize that you are sleeping in a rain. Too bad the character in question has not yet picked up ranks in Bluff or I'd tell them that they wet the bed.

[DruidAlanon]

I just don't feel its OK for an illusion to have real effect. As far as I understand, people inside the shelter may feel warm and protected while they are wet and their bodies are in hypothermia.

[Phelix-Mu]

I just don't feel its OK for an illusion to have real effect. As far as I understand, people inside the shelter may feel warm and protected while they are wet and their bodies are in hypothermia.

The key is the shadow descriptor. By adding a smattering of semi-real shadowstuff, the illusion becomes somewhat real.

What do "semi-real" and "somewhat real" mean? Well...excellent question. It means stuff gets weird real fast.

[HaikenEdge]

I just don't feel its OK for an illusion to have real effect. As far as I understand, people inside the shelter may feel warm and protected while they are wet and their bodies are in hypothermia.

I don't think of Shadow Conjuration as an illusion in the traditional sense; rather than being a glamer or a figment, which have no physical substance, it literally takes shadowstuff from the Plane of Shadow to craft the creation or conjuration. In a sense, they are being protected from the elements, albeit not as well as they think.

I'm more curious what a 160% real shadow Secure Shelter would be like in the snow. Would it be more warm and comfy than a normal Secure Shelter would be?

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm more curious what a 160% real shadow Secure Shelter would be like in the snow. Would it be more warm and comfy than a normal Secure Shelter would be?

Big BrotherShadowcraft Mage wants you to know you can never be too safe.:smallwink:

[DruidAlanon]

The key is the shadow descriptor. By adding a smattering of semi-real shadowstuff, the illusion becomes somewhat real.

What do "semi-real" and "somewhat real" mean? Well...excellent question. It means stuff gets weird real fast.

Yes, maybe ta better option is to say that it blocks a X% of elements + provides a sense of safety.

My question raised when our sorcerer picked shadow evocation. Since I'm a druid with 20+ check on survival at lvl 9, I felt kinda... useless when he created a shadowy shelter for the rest of the party while I was setting up a tarp+ a dakota fire next to a snow shelter for the rest of my stuff.

[eggynack]

I'm more curious what a 160% real shadow Secure Shelter would be like in the snow. Would it be more warm and comfy than a normal Secure Shelter would be?
Nah, the effects would happen to each individual snowflake on an individual basis. Long story short, snowflakes bounce off the shelter like super-balls. :smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

This discussion is typical. Start with a fairly straightforward premise, devolve into the kind of madness that makes the elder brain wish it had reproductive organs. Classic example: the conjuration spell summon logic. On face value, summon logic works as advertised; irons out crazy RAW, rewrites dysfunctional rules, and many other things that almost threatened to make forums like this one unnecessary.

Then comes Shadowcraft Mage, and suddenly the rules are 160% logical, and Mr. Elder Brain is looking for his condoms again as he shouts praises to Thoon.

[avr]

Summon logic? That doesn't work in an Antilogic Field does it? I can see the flaw in your plan right there.

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, you're right. I guess the primacy of anti-logic fields toward establishing a balance point for summon logic (and logic generally) must have won out around the drawing board where they were drawing up the rules.

[HaikenEdge]

I firmly believe that Summon Logic does not work in any way, shape or form, because like all of the game system, it was researched and produced by the chaotic entities known as game designers, when everybody knows Logic is lawful, and spellcasters cannot use spells of opposite alignment.

[TuggyNE]

This seems to say that, even if a save was made, the spell still functions at 20% effectiveness.

That only applies to attacks, and tiny hut is certainly not an attack.

[wizardpants]

That only applies to attacks, and tiny hut is certainly not an attack.

A hut is not an attack?

You young people, so lucky these days. Clearly your generation missed out on the Great Hut Wars of '76.

160% quasi-pseudo-real huts, being named after various kooky magicians and then summoned and thrown about, all willy-nilly. Some of the huts come out of the water, some of the huts don't come out of the water, and some of the huts come out of the water more hut than your youthful noggin' could possibly comprehend. I still reach for my sword when I see a thatch roof, and I will always see the doors and windows of those I killed in my nightmares.

Those days were no laughing matter, son. Remember your roots or someday there might be a Second Great Hut War.

[nedz]

A hut is not an attack?

You young people, so lucky these days. Clearly your generation missed out on the Great Hut Wars of '76.

160% quasi-pseudo-real huts, being named after various kooky magicians and then summoned and thrown about, all willy-nilly. Some of the huts come out of the water, some of the huts don't come out of the water, and some of the huts come out of the water more hut than your youthful noggin' could possibly comprehend. I still reach for my sword when I see a thatch roof, and I will always see the doors and windows of those I killed in my nightmares.

Those days were no laughing matter, son. Remember your roots or someday there might be a Second Great Hut War.

I do believe that you are confusing Huts with Gazebos.

[DruidAlanon]

so, is there any strict answer to how a shadowy shelter functions?

[TuggyNE]

so, is there any strict answer to how a shadowy shelter functions?

Yes. Not at all.

[fluke1993]

So what happens if I use shadow conjuration to cast summon logic and fail my will save, while everyone else passes theirs? Am I simultaneously right? Am I wrong? Am I both at the same time? What if I am 40% right and 60% wrong? Is my logic flawed?

[Phelix-Mu]

So what happens if I use shadow conjuration to cast summon logic and fail my will save, while everyone else passes theirs? Am I simultaneously right? Am I wrong? Am I both at the same time? What if I am 40% right and 60% wrong? Is my logic flawed?

Thou must atone, and pray unto Curmudgeon for a ruling that shall return the light to your blighted existence.

Sorry for all the off-topic stuff. Shadow magic does weird stuff to my head, and is putting me in mind of all the Craft(glamour) stuff that my group is dealing with in my current Exalted campaign. If you believe the illusion, it's 100% real. If you don't, it has no effect. So the fair folk lit the building on fire, then created a 100% real illusion that the building wasn't on fire. If you were stupid enough to believe the illusion, no fire. If you "passed the will save," you died in a blazing inferno.

My head just about exploded.

[Inuzuka]

So the fair folk lit the building on fire, then created a 100% real illusion that the building wasn't on fire. If you were stupid enough to believe the illusion, no fire. If you "passed the will save," you died in a blazing inferno.

But non magical fire only does 1d6 per round...

[Jack_Simth]

Can a shadow evocation create a Leomund's Shelter? I had an argument about that. Will it function as a real Shelter, protecting from weather etc?
Shadow Evocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm)? Nope. Not at all. 100% failure. Secure Shelter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secureShelter.htm) is Conjouration(Creation), Sor/Wiz-4, so even Shadow Conjouration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm) won't do it (as it is limited to 3rd level. Are you thinking of Tiny Hut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm)?

[Phelix-Mu]

But non magical fire only does 1d6 per round...

Mostly the falling building was supposed to kill them. Fair folk don't tend to think things through, as well, so this was more of a burst of inspiration on the part of one of the cataphracts, not a well-though-out plan.

[Dalebert]

First, I'm a party pooper. Shadow Conjuration is lvl 4 and can only simulate lvl 3 and lower spells, so no right off the bat. You'd have to use greater.

Aside from that, it's not useless. It might still keep baddies out. A lot of wild animals will just not interact with it therefore not provoking a saving throw for disbelief. Smarter things might fail their save and it would keep them out as well as a regular one. If they made their save, I assume it would have only 20% of the toughness and hit points for them trying to break in or tear through a wall. I also imagine it might be good enough for mild weather, say 20% of the normal range of temperature that a regular one would protect against. It's kind of like being in a poorly insulated house. Still better than being outside but not so great in a blizzard. I think even a very thin-walled, flimsy house would keep mild rain out though.

That's prolly how I'd handle it as a DM.