Give Paladins Bard Casting?

[CyberThread]

I don't mean, bard spells, just bard spell progression, how much of a shift do you think the class would have, it had access to its spell list, in the prospective of having a bards spell levels.

((Theoretically , would find matching level 5 and level 6 spells for the class to use))

[holywhippet]

I'd say they would get a fair bit more powerful. Some of their spells are lower level versions of spells on other lists, but a paladin would normally be of a much higher level when they would be casting it. They'd be getting the holy sword spell at level 10 also and that's a freaking powerful spell.

[Coidzor]

The Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) would not be broken if it got Full BAB, no, but then, neither would the Magus.

As for shifting things? You'd have to rejigger the spell list to account for 3 additional spell levels (Orisons, 5ths, and 6ths) and that you're not having to wait till the end of your career for 4th level spells, so some spell options are going to move up a spell level or two. Others, due to the poor design of the Paladin to begin with, would stay right where they are.

It's a clear upgrade, sure, but that's not a bad thing in this case. No, not a bad thing at all.

[Devronq]

I've tried that and I also gave them spells at the same level a cleric would gain them, and made up some 5-6lv spells to count as paladin spells and I like the results . Sorry I know I'm vague I haven't got to play it much but it looks good.



Random, when I misspelled paladin my phone correct a it to Kalashnikov weird hey?

[jedipilot24]

The Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) would not be broken if it got Full BAB, no, but then, neither would the Magus.

As for shifting things? You'd have to rejigger the spell list to account for 3 additional spell levels (Orisons, 5ths, and 6ths) and that you're not having to wait till the end of your career for 4th level spells, so some spell options are going to move up a spell level or two. Others, due to the poor design of the Paladin to begin with, would stay right where they are.

It's a clear upgrade, sure, but that's not a bad thing in this case. No, not a bad thing at all.

I suggest giving the Paladin the Mass versions of their lower level spells as well as thematically appropriate Cleric spells such as Disrupting Weapon, Righteous Might, Divine Power, Spell Resistance, and Heroes Feast.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Bards are spontaneous casters, and don't know nearly enough spells relative to the Paladin's already limited list. I'd use Adept spell progression (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) if anything, and all the Adept 5th level spells except Baleful Polymorph are fitting for a Paladin, though I'd add Greater Dispel Magic, Word of Recall, Righteous Might, and Flame Strike to those for the Paladin 5 spell list.

[One Step Two]

A friend of mine designed a homebrew setting, and the aim was to push Paladins into Tier Three. One of the changes was to make their casting purely Cha based so they are a little less MAD, and another change was to give them casting upto 6th level spells, much like the bard. The spell lists are as follows:

Paladin Spell List
Orisons:
create water, cure minor wounds, detect magic, detect poison, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance, virtue, vision of glory
1st Level:
bless, bless water, bless weapon, cure light wounds, detect undead, divine favor, divine sacrifice, endure elements, golden barding, lesser restoration, magic weapon, protection from chaos, protection from evil, resurgence, second wind, silvered weapon, strategic charge, traveler’s mount
2nd Level:
benediction, bladebane, bull’s strength, call mount, clarity of mind, cloak of bravery, conduit of life, consecrate, delay poison, divine presence, eagle’s splendor, light of faith, master cavalier, owl’s wisdom, remove paralysis, resist energy, righteous fury, shield other, stone fists, strength of stone, touch of restoration, turn amathema, undetectable alignment, zone of truth
3rd Level:
blessed sight, blessing of bahamut, cure moderate wounds, daylight, discern lies, dispel magic, earth hammer, greater magic weapon, heal mount, holy smite, light of wisdom, magic circle against chaos, magic circle against evil, mass resurgence, order’s wrath, prayer, remove blindness/deafness, remove curse, smite heretic, war mount
4th Level:
break enchantment, cure serious wounds, dampen magic, death ward, dispel chaos, dispel evil, holy sword, lawful sword, lesser visage of the deity, light of purity, mark of justice, neutralize poison, phantom charge, restoration, revenance, sacred haven, seek eternal rest, spiritual chariot, winged mount
5th Level:
atonement, bolt of glory, cure critical wounds, dismissal, disrupting weapon, divine agility, flame strike, hallow, hold monster, lesser planar ally, light of courage, mass cure light wounds, raise dead, righteous might, spell resistance, stoneskin, true seeing, undeath to death, wall of fire
6th level:
antimagic field, bastion of good, cometfall, crown of glory, dictum, greater dispel magic, greater restoration, heal, holy word, mass bull's strength, mass cure moderate wounds, mass eagle's splendor, mass owl’s wisdom, power word: blind, resurrection, righteous wrath of the faithful, sunbeam, vengeance halo, visage of the deity

The spell list was let mostly alone for 1st - 4th level spells, and expanded upon, adding more powerful spells like Raise dead, and Greater Restoration, because the Campaign setting excluded Clerics. The addition of' 'Mass' spells, combined with Full CL instead of Half, meant they became a better battlefield commander, able to buff, and bless allies.

As an Aside, I don't know his stance on the Battle Blessing feat, and how it would interact with these spells.

edit: whoops, 6th level spells got put in the wrong spot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's a pretty solid boost. After you grab the feat taxes of Serenity and Battle Blessing, you'd have a pretty solid chassis, if not class. But Paladin/Ordained Champion/Sacred Exorcist or Paladin/Fist of Raziel would both be solidly T3.

[One Step Two]

With the mods my friend made, you don't need the Serenity Tax, it's built in.

[Grod_The_Giant]

With the mods my friend made, you don't need the Serenity Tax, it's built in.
Well, sure-- so does the fix I made, and pretty much every full-on fix I've ever seen, for that matter. But it wasn't what the OP was asking about, so I figured he was already aware of MAD issues.

In any case, CyberDrag: you should also make casting Charisma-based to reduce MAD, and pump up Smite considerable. Make it usable per-encounter instead of per-day, pump up the damage, let it apply to all attacks in a full attack, or steal the Pathfinder version. Boost the effects of Lay on Hands-- steal the Dragon Shaman's version, or the Pathfinder version. Just use the Pathfinder paladin. There, I think that's all of the forum's standard paladin-fix-advice.

[LTwerewolf]

They'd be getting the holy sword spell at level 10 also and that's a freaking powerful spell.

Glory domain, clerics get the same spell at 9.

[Gabe the Bard]

If you give them bard casting, you should also give them a bard's BAB progression. Every class that has at least 6 spell levels also has a bard or cleric's BAB, in 3.5 and PF.

[CyberThread]

should I drag out the prc's that grant 6th level casting on fast progression :P

[Coidzor]

If you give them bard casting, you should also give them a bard's BAB progression. Every class that has at least 6 spell levels also has a bard or cleric's BAB, in 3.5 and PF.

That's because Full BAB is overvalued by designers relative to its actual worth.

[Fable Wright]

If you give them bard casting, you should also give them a bard's BAB progression. Every class that has at least 6 spell levels also has a bard or cleric's BAB, in 3.5 and PF.

On the other hand, though, Duskblades get 5th level spells and full BAB and caster level, and many more spells/day than the classes that do grant 6 spell levels. Would halving their number of spells per day and granting one more spell level, like forcing them to cast every spell with Versatile Spellcaster, really be broken?

[Spore]

Glory domain, clerics get the same spell at 9.

To display Clerics as the looser in this instance is perhaps not correct if you compare the whole class.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Should be fine. A prestige paladin that's cleric 4/ fighter 1/ prestige paladin 15 gets the same but better, save cl, less one BAB. 6th level cleric spells at cl 12 is nasty even at level 20, especially given that cl boosters aren't really hard to come by.

[Karoht]

The Inquisitor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor) would not be broken if it got Full BAB, no, but then, neither would the Magus.

As for shifting things? You'd have to rejigger the spell list to account for 3 additional spell levels (Orisons, 5ths, and 6ths) and that you're not having to wait till the end of your career for 4th level spells, so some spell options are going to move up a spell level or two. Others, due to the poor design of the Paladin to begin with, would stay right where they are.

It's a clear upgrade, sure, but that's not a bad thing in this case. No, not a bad thing at all.
Easy solution, rather than adjusting their lists too much.
Give Paladin access to the Inquisitor spell list at identical progression, as they already share many of the same spells. Any Paladin Spells that are on the list work at whatever level the Inquisitor would gain them. Any Paladin Spells not on the list are the only spells you need to adjust.

In return, Inquisitors get Full BAB, and access to the Paladin Spell list as well as their own.

If further 'fairness' is required, maybe give the Paladin 1 less spell slot or spell known per level. Maybe.

[LTwerewolf]

To display Clerics as the looser in this instance is perhaps not correct if you compare the whole class.

Someone mentioned that getting holy sword at level 10 may be too strong, and I pointed out that another class gets it a level sooner. It's not about a class winning or losing, but more the fact that this powerful spell is already available at these levels, or even sooner if archivists are involved.

[Renegade Paladin]

Giving divine power and righteous might to a full BAB class that already focuses on hitting things... Clericzilla is kind of bad enough, guys. :smalltongue: Especially if it was Pathfinder divine power, where instead of making BAB equal caster level and sticking an enhancement bonus on Strength, it's just a flat luck bonus to attack and damage and an extra attack as per haste. >_>

[LTwerewolf]

Divine power on a 3.5 paladin would net you +6 str, and some temporary hitpoints, so that's not a big deal. It's far more of a big deal on clerics, where it removes one of the only "balancing" factors the class had (the BAB). Righteous might is typically the weaker half of that combo. The biggest part of that bonus is the reach, and if you're using size shenanigans, the size bonus.

[Honest Tiefling]

Of course, it would likely also matter what the heck else is in the party, and the skill of the player behind the paladin.

Personally, if I was DMing, I'd probably hear the player out on making a PF archetype provided that the rest of the party wouldn't become overshadowed. If it was 3.5, I think I'd be even more inclined if I got the player's build plan for their character to 20th level.

Personally, I've been toying with the idea of giving the paladin a domain or subdomain myself.

[Coidzor]

Giving divine power and righteous might to a full BAB class that already focuses on hitting things... Clericzilla is kind of bad enough, guys. :smalltongue: Especially if it was Pathfinder divine power, where instead of making BAB equal caster level and sticking an enhancement bonus on Strength, it's just a flat luck bonus to attack and damage and an extra attack as per haste. >_>

Did you forget your blue? :smallconfused: Part of the reason Clericzilla is bad is because all of those delicious buffs are self-only and melee sucks without them. Giving those self-same buffs to previously sucktacular melee, on the other hand at least makes Paladin competitive with Cleric to some extent.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Righteous might is nice but divine power is almost completely redundant on a paladin if he's casting from his own slots. It's nice from a wand before he has a girdle of giant strength though.

[Fax Celestis]

d20r paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181496) is a six-level caster, fwiw.

[Talya]

Adapt the Mystic Ranger concept to become Mystic Paladin...gain 0-5th level spells at a very rapid pace at the cost of getting class features somewhat delayed.

[Spore]

Adapt the Mystic Ranger concept to become Mystic Paladin...gain 0-5th level spells at a very rapid pace at the cost of getting class features somewhat delayed.

Why delayed? The 3.5 paladin is weak as is. The PF paladin I COULD get behind...

[Talya]

Why delayed? The 3.5 paladin is weak as is. The PF paladin I COULD get behind...

Because Mystic Ranger gives you sorcerer spell level progression...they'd stop being weak pretty quickly. (especially as Paladins also qualify for Sword of the Arcane Order...)

Pathfinder Paladin is well designed.

[T.G. Oskar]

I tend to incline to quality over quantity regarding Paladin spellcasting, so aside from a few exceptions, it all depends on how you play with the spells.

Even if you have 5th level and 6th level spells and the same spellcasting as a Bard (spontaneous, CHA-based, using the same list of spells known and spells per day), you're still focusing four of your spell levels in the Paladin spell list. Now, I made a mention of very good Paladin spells in the Spell Compendium (Deafening Clang, Divine Sacrifice, Silverbeard, Flame of Faith, the eponymous Rhino's Rush, Shield of Warding come to mind; I don't mention Righteous Aura or Draconic Might or Greater Status because they're 4th level spells), but you'll quickly hit a snag here: if you're limiting mostly to PHB and SpC for your spell choices, you'll notice 2nd level and 3rd level will have so-so choices, 1st level will LOSE spells (because, to pad 0-level spells, you'll return Resistance and Virtue to orisons), and you'll have a very heated 4th level because most of the good spells are there. Without the ability to choose them as you'd desire, you'd have to focus on the few spells that are truly worthwhile. Is it worthwhile to choose Holy Sword, if I might end up with the odd chance of getting a Holy Avenger that does the same but better? Is it worthwhile to choose Righteous Aura as one of my 4-5 spell slots?

There's some definite benefits, such as full CL and an increased save DC for your spells (as you're killing MAD, which is arguably the greatest benefit ever), but it all depends on the spell list. Trust me, and here I can say I "talk by experience", but a well-padded spell list will usually trump adding more spell levels, since while both will eventually add up some extra spells, the latter will have to wait until 13th level to get the benefit, while the former will see a definite change from 4th level. Sure, the latter will get its spells much earlier (1st-level spells 2 levels earlier, 2nd-level spells 4 levels earlier, 3rd-level spells 4 levels earlier and 4th-level spells likewise 4 levels earlier), but it'll always depend on your spell choices, so the spells you choose will usually be pretty specific. For example: going by the Paladin spell list as it currently stands (and using the 3.5 version), what would be your definite choices for 1st-level spells? Note that some of the nicer spells you could have (Shield of Faith, Nightshield, Conviction) are off-limits for you, and offensive spells are pretty limited (Magic Weapon, and with SpC, you get Deafening Clang, Divine Sacrifice and Rhino's Rush at most).

If you're willing to shift Paladin spellcasting to 2/3rds spellcasting ability, it's imperative that you give a once-over to its spell list from levels 1-4, because some spells that were necessary to be dropped a level or two may suddenly appear at their right spot. Furthermore, the Paladin needs to have some of the Cleric buffing spells added to their list by default (like the three spells I mentioned above, but that's only the tip of the iceberg) and perhaps one or two additional offensive spells. Perhaps even Heroism, Greater Heroism and Good Hope, while at it (it's what I did, after all, though I kept 4-level casting). With a revised spell list, you have the chance to take the class well into Tier 3; as it stands, the Paladin might enter the bottom rung of Tier 3 by 10th-13th level, since you get 4th level spells earlier and eventually your first 5th level spells, which may include stuff like Righteous Might and maybe even Blade Barrier. However, it's important to consider that some spells may need to be shifted a bit upwards (Dispel Chaos/Evil is the first one that comes to mind).

In short: it can be done, but you can't cop out just by adding 5th and 6th level spells. Revise the entire list or you risk making a decent, but not strong, patch.

[Grim Reader]

I've been doing some work on rebalancing the Magus, Duskblade and Hexblade against each other. Aiming for tier threes that do not step on each others toes all the time much.

My initial though on this is that Battle Blessing + Sword of the Arcane Order is a very easy way of pushing this class well above the point I've been aiming for. Not Tier Two by any means, but overshadowing tier three gishes at similar optimization levels.

[Coidzor]

I've been doing some work on rebalancing the Magus, Duskblade and Hexblade against each other. Aiming for tier threes that do not step on each others toes all the time much.

My initial though on this is that Battle Blessing + Sword of the Arcane Order is a very easy way of pushing this class well above the point I've been aiming for. Not Tier Two by any means, but overshadowing tier three gishes at similar optimization levels.

If your gishes aren't getting the right spells off of the Wizard list to compete, that's a problem with their spell lists, since unless you banned gish PrCs too, they already have to compete with gishes that draw from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. :smallconfused:

If your problem is essentially Quickened Wizard Spells, then just make Battle Blessing not work for wizard spells obtained through Sword of the Arcane Order. :smallconfused:

If the problem is Battle Blessing itself, well, unless they're persisting or otherwise pre-buffing or they're a gish that doesn't use buffs, they all need some way of being able to cast their buffs without standing around with their thumbs up their asses. Tweak Battle Blessing to something more palatable and make it available to all relevant gishes, no? :smallconfused:

As for in general and not just in comparison with other gish-types, strengthening the Paladin's spell list and casting should leave them in a place where Sword of the Arcane Order is unnecessary, so one can probably eliminate or change it. Possibly even just change it into a PrC, a gish counterpart to Mage of the Arcane Order, maybe.

[Grim Reader]

If your gishes aren't getting the right spells off of the Wizard list to compete, that's a problem with their spell lists, since unless you banned gish PrCs too, they already have to compete with gishes that draw from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. :smallconfused:

I am not banning anything, I am rebalancing them a bit. The Magus, Hexblade and Duskblade all fill the same niche. The Magus is just better. And I like them all, so I'm trying to differentiate them, and make them a bit more distinct from each other.

The Magus spell list is fine as it is. My changes to the Hexblade among other things opens up the familiar teaching familiar from the Witch, so the entire Witch list is open. I am happy with my new Hexblade.

I am currenty working on the Duskblade, where spells known, spell aquisition and spell list could stand a little bit of work.

I've compared spells known, spell level accessible, spell slots and chassis across several points in their careers.

And what I'm seeing here is that the proposed Paladin, with two feats worth of optimization, blows them out of the water. The Magus and Duskblade has options for a limited number of quickened castings. The Hexblade relies less on spells.

This Paladin has a chassis of d10 hd, full-BaB, Divine Grace on saves and full armor and weapons. Spell level progression matches the Magus, who has the fastest one among them. Spell aquisition is a mix of all spells known (Paladin spells) and Wizard. Spell lists is Paladin plus Wizard. All spells speeded up, all the time.

This isn't broken by any means, but it does overshadow the Magus or Duskblade. Basically, it is a Magus that trades his other class features for Divine Grace, all Paladin Spells (Plus whatever 5th and 6th level Divine Spells gets added), the full Wizard spell list opened, constant Quickened on all standard action spells, and full BaB.

I'm saying, if you want to use this, don't let this Paladin have Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order. Instead, let him have some kind of more limited battle-casting mechanism.

[Quorothorn]

tl;dr I agree this idea has potential, though I would at least consider limited spells known rather than having it be a full list class, since that would seem to put it ahead of the Bard.

Longer version:
I have been toying with the idea of something similar to this: basically, give the Paladin Bardic casting (including it being based off of Charisma, not Wisdom), possibly with one less spell per day at all points.

In my current plan for it in my campaign, the Paladin class is not just for Lawful Good characters (or even just for the four extremes of LG, CG, LE, and CE): rather, each Paladin picks one of four Ethos (Law, Chaos, Evil, and Good) and their class abilities are all reflective of that (for example, Paladins of Chaos get Detect Law at-will and their Smite targets Lawful creatures).

This also affects their casting in that each Paladin gets a 'free' extra Spell Known at each spell level, depending on their ethos:
1st: Protection from Chaos/Law/Good/Evil
2nd: Magic Circle Against Chaos/Law/Good/Evil
3rd: Order’s Wrath/Chaos Hammer/Unholy Blight/Holy Smite
4th: Dispel Chaos/Law/Good/Evil
5th: Dictum/Word of Chaos/Blasphemy/Holy Word
6th: Shield of Law/Cloak of Chaos/Unholy Aura/Holy Aura
(Nothing at 0th-level because they get Detect [Opposing Alignment] at-will anyway.)

Doesn't seem too crazy to me. Because of how slow to-6ths are compared to full, none of these spells will be available at an earlier class level compared to a Cleric--they all either 'arrive' at the same class level or one behind. (I am aware that they could be used in Archivist/etc early-access shenanigans, however.)

And the incomplete/rudimentary 'upgraded' base spell list:
1st: Bane, Bless, Bless Water, Cause Fear, Corrupt Weapon, Cure Light Wounds, Curse Water, Divine Favor, Doom, Endure Elements, Inflict Light Wounds, Magic Weapon, Lesser Restoration.

2nd: Bear's Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Cure Moderate Wounds, Darkness, Daylight, Delay Poison, Eagle’s Splendor, Hold Person, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Owl’s Wisdom, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth.

3rd: Atonement, Blindness/Deafness, Cure Serious Wounds, Deeper Darkness, Divine Power, Discern Lies, Dispel Magic, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Greater Magic Weapon, Prayer, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse.

4th: Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Deity’s Might, Dimensional Anchor, Ethos’ Weapon [Holy Sword but for whatever alignment the Paladin has as their ethos], Freedom of Movement, Heal Mount, Inflict Critical Wounds, Mark of Justice, Neutralize Poison, Poison, Lesser Planar Ally, Restoration.

5th: Break Enchantment, Commune, Dominate Person, Hallow, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Raise Dead, Unhallow.

6th: Greater Restoration, Harm, Heal, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds, Teleport, Planar Ally, Plane Shift [this and Teleport because most alignment-representative Outsiders get them].

I would probably not allow Battle Blessing to combine with this, because auto-quickens for spells that are actually powerful seems...iffy.

(Other potential changes: Smite is 1/day per class level and cuts through DR besides /- and /adamantine; expanded skill list, possibly more skill points; Lay on Hands changed to 'Conduit', which is more like the Pathfinder version of the ability but with any 'element' type allowed as an option, from positive energy to fire; a few bonus feats; and the ability to choose eight different "Auras" over the course of a 20-level progression, based off the Aura of Courage and all its many ACF counterparts. Oh, and a good WILL save.)

[Grim Reader]

Thinking about it, I'd ban Sword of the Arcane Order. Granting Wizard spells to 6th level is a lot more than granting it to someone who goes to 4th level in 20.

Battle Blessing...I'd restrict it a bit. Allow it to work on spells of up to 3rd level, I think.