Dervish character creation help

[KnotKnormal]

So i wanted to create a character that is good moving around the battlefield. starting level 10. we have access to PHB 1 and 2 and all the complete books except psyonic. I want this character to remain a martial character currently i have made a scout 5/fighter 2/dervish 3

scout 5for the skirmish damage as well as the out of combat skills.
fighter 2 level dip to pick up the bonus feats and boost base attack.
Dervish 3 because it basically does what i want it to do.

Chosen Feats are as follows.

Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (scimitar)

Let me know what you think so far and how i can improve upon her.

[herrhauptmann]

Chosen Feats are as follows.

Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (scimitar)

Let me know what you think so far and how i can improve upon her.
There's better options for Dodge. Try midnight, desert wind, or expeditious.
Ditch two weapon defense and weapon focus.
Get rid of Mobility and get it as an armor enchantment.
You want scimitars? Get snowflake wardance.
Read the Zinc Saucier on Dervishes, I think it was #13.

How about swiftblade? Gives skirmish, spring attack.
Ranger2/wizard5/swiftblade3. I guarantee you'll be able to contribute more effectively than the scout build.

[KnotKnormal]

There's better options for Dodge. Try midnight, desert wind, or expeditious.
Ditch two weapon defense and weapon focus.
Get rid of Mobility and get it as an armor enchantment.
You want scimitars? Get snowflake wardance.
Read the Zinc Saucier on Dervishes, I think it was #13.

How about swiftblade? Gives skirmish, spring attack.
Ranger2/wizard5/swiftblade3. I guarantee you'll be able to contribute more effectively than the scout build.

Can't use any of the feats you mentioned. I'm limited to only the Complete Books and PHB 1 and 2. weapon focus dodge and mobility are all required for dervish. and i want to stay away from spell casting as a whole. my character was never exposed to magic as part of her back story.

[herrhauptmann]

Can't use any of the feats you mentioned. I'm limited to only the Complete Books and PHB 1 and 2. weapon focus dodge and mobility are all required for dervish. and i want to stay away from spell casting as a whole. my character was never exposed to magic as part of her back story.

My bad on the books. Is the srd available to you? It has a bit of stuff from unearthed arcana in it.

If you're limited to noncasting as a result of story, you should tell us. So beside being noncasting, and you wanting to fight while running around, is there anything else about the character that's set in stone? Race and alignment maybe?

Mobility can be gotten via armor, and it counts for purposes of prereqs. Some gold is worth a lot less than a feat slot. I'm trying to remember what book it's in, but a quick check of my crystal keep files isn't telling me anything. When I know, I'll tell you.

A problem with dervish is power creep. Older options (prc/feats) that were ok in 2004 have been pretty much invalidated with the printing of newer better options. (Exceptions exist of course, like frenzied berserker)
So, how about ditching a level in dervish or fighter and taking a level in barbarian?
Not straight barbarian though. Spirit Lion barbarian from complete champion. This gives you the option to do a pouncing charge the times when hitting and moving away seems like a bad idea. (If you think the enemy is an ubercharger to some degree).
Also take whirling frenzy from UA/SRD if you can. It's a pretty dumb idea, spinning in circles while fighting, but that's what happens when the writers spent their highschool/college years reading drizzt books. It's an extra attack and a boost to your reflex.
Barbarian also gives you another speed boost that stacks with any from scout, as well as items and buff spells.

[KnotKnormal]

My bad on the books. Is the srd available to you? It has a bit of stuff from unearthed arcana in it.

If you're limited to noncasting as a result of story, you should tell us. So beside being noncasting, and you wanting to fight while running around, is there anything else about the character that's set in stone? Race and alignment maybe?

Mobility can be gotten via armor, and it counts for purposes of prereqs. Some gold is worth a lot less than a feat slot. I'm trying to remember what book it's in, but a quick check of my crystal keep files isn't telling me anything. When I know, I'll tell you.

I don't know about the SRD ill have to ask on that one. as far as i know it is strictly the books for now.

Sorry for not putting the non casting up front. my race right now is human for the extra feat but that can change as long as it's in those books. alignment i would like to remain neutral good, but i can sway lawful/chaotic if i need to.

Did not know about the mobility on an item thing. thanks for that tip, also i considered the barbarian a while ago for those reasons. i might swap out one of my fighter classes for is, and with mobility on an item, I'm not losing anything.

[sabelo2000]

There was an Iron Chef dervish round also, check out there for inspiration. One tactic that always seems to come up is to combine Dervish with Invisible Blade, so that you can combine the free-action Bluff checks with your mobile dervish dance, and deal sneak-attack damage 20 times in one round. (Keep in mind, this is about the only tactic that makes Invisible Blade playable). However, this does mean you have to dedicate your entire build to this concept from Lvl1, since it takes all 20 levels to get the payoff. If you go that route, suggest taking Monkey Grip to wield Large kuri and have some actual damage potential.

If you can convince your DM to allow Tome of Battle, there are some maneuvers there that combine very well with Dervish mobility. Otherwise, Pouncebarian as suggested above is a nice tactic. Pounce in, dance out.

[KnotKnormal]

Bad news, i was just informed that the party is starting on the executioners block so no starting money or equipment so the mobility on equipment thing won't work. Also no SRD.

other then that I love the lion barbarian thing, I know how to work it into my back story and I'll ask my DM to change it to a tiger for flavor purposes.

I think I'll skip the invisible blade route, the campaign won't get far enough to see the payoff, so not entirely worth it in my mind.

[Eldariel]

I strongly suggest Ranger picking up the feat Swift Hunter [Complete Scoundrel] over Fighter. This gives you the ability to deal Skirmish damage to your Favored Enemies. For the record, the 5 normally immune types are Undead, Construct, Elemental, Plant & Ooze.

Scout 4/Ranger 2/Dervish works really well. Human with Flaws would get you some extra feats to play around with but even without, you'd at least qualify.


If you go that route, suggest taking Monkey Grip to wield Large kuri and have some actual damage potential.

I must point out that Large Kukri do 1d6 damage to the 1d4 of Medium Kukris. You also get -2 from Monkey Grip. There are some sizedness-issues too. But seriously, 1d4 -> 1d6 isn't a significant upgrade far as damage goes (about 1 damage per attack) especially since we're talking about dealing like 5d6 20 times in a turn already (so you'd get 20 extra damage to the 300+ base). The Monkey Grip wouldn't give you more than like 3% increase in your overall damage, which is decidedly not worth a feat.

Maxim "Never take Monkey Grip" is pretty good to stick by; the feat is just bad outside extreme fringe cases (you're wielding a Colossal+++ two-handed weapon, have access to no magic items or spells and want to get the +~6d6 bonus in dice - goes without saying you need to stack a lot of spells/powers or be really large for that to be consideration-worthy).

[KnotKnormal]

I strongly suggest Ranger picking up the feat Swift Hunter [Complete Scoundrel] over Fighter. This gives you the ability to deal Skirmish damage to your Favored Enemies. For the record, the 5 normally immune types are Undead, Construct, Elemental, Plant & Ooze.

Scout 4/Ranger 2/Dervish works really well. Human with Flaws would get you some extra feats to play around with but even without, you'd at least qualify

To make sure im reading this right the feat allows ranger and scout to stack for the purpose of figuring out favored enemies and skirmish damage and AC so a scout 5 ranger 2 would get +2D6 +2 AC and 2 favored enemies. is this right? or is it better then I'm giving credit?

[Eldariel]

To make sure im reading this right the feat allows ranger and scout to stack for the purpose of figuring out favored enemies and skirmish damage and AC so a scout 5 ranger 2 would get +2D6 +2 AC and 2 favored enemies. is this right? or is it better then I'm giving credit?

You're correct. But the key part is, you can Skirmish vs. 2 favored enemies, ergo two types you normally cannot use Skirmish against (e.g. Undead and Elementals, or Arcanists as per Complete Mage "Arcane Hunter"). Furthermore, if you ever do go further into either Scout or Ranger, you'll get +3d6/+2 Skirmish on level 9 and 3rd Favored Enemy on level 10.

Of course, you'll also want Improved Skirmish-feat [Complete Scoundrel] for extra +2d6/+2; this gives you overall Skirmish of +4d6/+4 and eventually +5d6/+4.

[KnotKnormal]

You're correct. But the key part is, you can Skirmish vs. 2 favored enemies, ergo two types you normally cannot use Skirmish against (e.g. Undead and Elementals, or Arcanists as per Complete Mage "Arcane Hunter"). Furthermore, if you ever do go further into either Scout or Ranger, you'll get +3d6/+2 Skirmish on level 9 and 3rd Favored Enemy on level 10.

Of course, you'll also want Improved Skirmish-feat [Complete Scoundrel] for extra +2d6/+2; this gives you overall Skirmish of +4d6/+4 and eventually +5d6/+4.

Gah... All these juicy feats... i think improved skirmish will have to wait till level up I'm out of feats to choose and awesome call on the ranger... really boosts my skills and the fact that i have a +13 ref save going in is freaking awesome. unfortunate my attack drops by 1.

[Eldariel]

Gah... All these juicy feats... i think improved skirmish will have to wait till level up I'm out of feats to choose and awesome call on the ranger... really boosts my skills and the fact that i have a +13 ref save going in is freaking awesome. unfortunate my attack drops by 1.

You can at least skip Two-Weapon Defense out of the feats listed in the first post as it's just plain inferior to Improved Skirmish (also kinda mediocre as a whole). That's a way to save a feat.

TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target [Complete Warrior], Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), Weapon Focus would be what I'd suggest for your whole career. If Character Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are allowed, I'd write 'em in and use the two feats to get a bit closer to where you wanna be. Deadly Defense [Complete Scoundrel] is a good feat if you end up with extras later on (but with how many feats you need, I don't think that will be an option).

[KnotKnormal]

Any way to negate or at least mitigate the amount of AoO I'll be taking?

[Eldariel]

Any way to negate or at least mitigate the amount of AoO I'll be taking?

Uh, Tumble? It's a class skill, you can use it while dancing, you'll never be taking a single AoO from individual enemies if you can get +24 Tumble (every +2 Tumble beyond that reliably allows you to evade an additional enemy).

[herrhauptmann]

Swiftblade. :smalltongue: If under the effect of a haste you cast yourself, you get miss chances.

Ok, seriously now. What you want are miss chances.
Smoking weapons are good, but they only count on miss chances for the square where you start/end your turn. So taking an AOO mid-charge? No help.

I'd swear there was a line about miss chances on this guide. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026 I'm not seeing it, but check out the section on tactical movement.

[KnotKnormal]

Swiftblade. :smalltongue: If under the effect of a haste you cast yourself, you get miss chances.

Ok, seriously now. What you want are miss chances.
Smoking weapons are good, but they only count on miss chances for the square where you start/end your turn. So taking an AOO mid-charge? No help.

I'd swear there was a line about miss chances on this guide. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026 I'm not seeing it, but check out the section on tactical movement.

Yeah but i can stack miss chances with item i pick up during the game, i don't want to cram more into this then i have to.

[KnotKnormal]

Uh, Tumble? It's a class skill, you can use it while dancing, you'll never be taking a single AoO from individual enemies if you can get +24 Tumble (every +2 Tumble beyond that reliably allows you to evade an additional enemy).

lol oops... forgot about that. I'm at +18 right now so i can effectively tumble for 20 feet get my 4D6 and 4AC and not provoke anything as long as there are only 3 enemies near by. otherwise i actually have to roll.