Vikings

[Avilan the Grey]

...So, saw my first episode yesterday (not the first episode; I think it's the 5th or so).

I am... not entirely disliking it. Whenever Hollywood tries to do Vikings, they tend to do badly, but this is... okay.

What I really liked:
The pronounciation of words are absolutely correct (if we pretend Vikings spoke modern Swedish). To get English-speaking actors to actually pronounce Scandinavian words almost exactly correct (no real acccent) takes a heck of a lot of coaching and practice.

Sets were very well made and correct (as far as we know).

What was better than I expected:
Clothes were okay, although not colorful enough. Too much animal hides and brown and grey to be historically correct. No horns, thank god(s).

What I disliked:
Everyone is dirty. Why? Vikings washed themselves every day. Yet everybody except the king has dirty faces.

The priests at the temple obviously were inspired by Catholic and Ortodox Christian priests, so were the rituals. I know we actually have no real clue how they dressed and behaved IRL, but this was so... obvious.

The Vikings, at least the ones from Svithjod (Sweden) supposedly doesn't know France exists. How can they not? Also, I thought Rollo was Danish, or possibly Norweigian, not Swedish...


So for the story... As far as I can tell, were I came in to the story Rollo has not yet invaded France, but he is being tempted to go there. So this must all take place before 885. Other than that I guess it emulates Rome; very slow plot, lots of talking. And nudity.

[Cheesegear]

So for the story... As far as I can tell, were I came in to the story Rollo has not yet invaded France

The story...Is based on this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_Lodbrok). The Viking who went to England, had a look at what a King was, and decided that that would be pretty cool, and then went around converting the Viking pseudo-democracy into a monarchy by killing everyone else.

...That's why it's on the History Channel...Because it's supposed to be Historical. So far the only son of Ragnar's that we've been introduced to is Bjorn (later Bjorn Ironside accoring to history) who becomes King of Sweden at some point, again, not a spoiler, that's history.

[Avilan the Grey]

The story...Is based on this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_Lodbrok). The Viking who went to England, had a look at what a King was, and decided that that would be pretty cool, and then went around converting the Viking pseudo-democracy into a monarchy by killing everyone else.

Oh I know. But that is, as far as I understand it, THE Rollo*. That's why I mentioned him. Ragnar is only really famous for being the supposed founder of the scandinavian kingdoms; Rollo had a much bigger role in history as a whole.

Also, if indeed the sacking of Lindisfarne is supposed to be depicted in the first episode (according to Wikis), and Rangar was leading the raid? Well that goes historical correctness out the window. He was probably not even born yet, back then.

*The Rollo who was bought off by Charles Le Simple from sacking Paris by gifting him the entire Normandy area, which in turn led to the founding of THE most influential culture in Medieval Europe (the fact that they founded modern England is only the one thing most people know, they were vastly influential militarely and politically far and wide, including the entire mediterranian area.

[Cheesegear]

Ragnar is only really famous for being the supposed founder of the scandinavian kingdoms; Rollo had a much bigger role in history as a whole.

Maybe that will be more explored in later Seasons? Or perhaps even in a spin-off? Who knows. So far, the show - as an entity of itself - is about the founding of the Scandanavian Kingdoms (and even their conversions to Christianity on some level). It doesn't matter what Rollo does insofar as the story is not actually about him at this point.

If the showrunners wanted to make a show about the origins of Normandy, then sure, there'd be more Rollo. But they didn't so there isn't.

[Avilan the Grey]

Maybe that will be more explored in later Seasons? Or perhaps even in a spin-off? Who knows. So far, the show - as an entity of itself - is about the founding of the Scandanavian Kingdoms (and even their conversions to Christianity on some level). It doesn't matter what Rollo does insofar as the story is not actually about him at this point.

If the showrunners wanted to make a show about the origins of Normandy, then sure, there'd be more Rollo. But they didn't so there isn't.

Oh i know. I just find him a more intersting character.
The more I think about it, the "dung ages" and "constand face dirt" really annoys me more and more. It's like they did all this research, then threw it out the window at places just because the audience expects dirt, or something. At least i hope that is the case, because if they genuinely believe vikings walked around all day (and slept all night) with mud on their faces... :smallsigh:

Also, I know it's a matter of taste, but the Internet is apparently aflame with desire for Lagertha... It's like they never seen an average-looking Scandinavian woman before :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Hyena]

The Vikings, at least the ones from Svithjod (Sweden) supposedly doesn't know France exists. How can they not? Also, I thought Rollo was Danish, or possibly Norweigian, not Swedish...

His nationality is a major debate literally everywhere where his name is mentioned.

[Noldo]

Everyone is dirty. Why? Vikings washed themselves every day. Yet everybody except the king has dirty faces.

Some historians have suggested that although Vikings did wash quite often for time period’s standards, everyone washed their hands and faces in the same bowl. The bowl (full of then clean water) was first presented to the highest ranking (i.e. the king), who would wash himself first and thereafter the bowl would be passed down to the hierarchy. If one takes that to be historically accurate, it would make sense that the highest ranking individuals would have cleaner faces than others, for the water would be quite dirty by the time the regular folks would be washing their faces.

[BWR]

We all know that the only way to distinguish between a king and a commoner is the king hasn't got **** all over him.

[Avilan the Grey]

We all know that the only way to distinguish between a king and a commoner is the king hasn't got **** all over him.

...

...

Touché.

:smallbiggrin:


Some historians have suggested that although Vikings did wash quite often for time period’s standards, everyone washed their hands and faces in the same bowl. The bowl (full of then clean water) was first presented to the highest ranking (i.e. the king), who would wash himself first and thereafter the bowl would be passed down to the hierarchy. If one takes that to be historically accurate, it would make sense that the highest ranking individuals would have cleaner faces than others, for the water would be quite dirty by the time the regular folks would be washing their faces.

This is from the witness of the Arabian trader who also claimed to be the lover of the queen of Iceland. Among other things.
But even if that is true, the actual mud would disolve and wash off. Even if the water is dirty, the visible layers of dirt would disappear.

[MLai]

Is this a documentary, a History Channel mockumentary, or a TV series with actual dramatic plot?

[Cheesegear]

Is this a documentary, a History Channel mockumentary, or a TV series with actual dramatic plot?

It's a TV Series, based on pseudo-historical events. Like Spartacus, Rome, The Tudors, etc. But with Vikings.

[Mathis]

Unlike Avilan I've seen the entire series except season 2 which is set to air sometime in march 2014. The face dirt thing you mention really isn't as common as your impression make me believe. Throughout the show people are often dirty after traveling, doing work or other physical activities. For the most part their faces are clean and washed although not always clean after our standards. Even so, it's not known that the vikings washed every day as you say. They probably did wash their faces often, perhaps as often as every day

The show also depicts the supposed tradition of washing their faces and hair in a communal basin that everyone blows their snot and spit into. A tradition you should know we only know about from a Muslim traveler, Ahmad ibn Fadlan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan) who would have been disgusted by the difference in hygiene, coming from a place (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad#A_centre_of_learning_.288th_to_13th_centur ies.29) that was at the time arguably more advanced than the Rus Vikings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'_people) he encountered.

The show isn't historically accurate. It even gets something as simple as geographical locations wrong such as placing Uppsala high up in the mountains. Like Cheesegear mentioned earlier it's based on the story of Ragnar Lothbrok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnar_Lothbrok), a character it's doubtful ever even existed. None of this really detracts from the shows quality as an action drama, but if you are looking to learn something about Vikings you'll be disappointed and misinformed.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It even gets something as simple as geographical locations wrong such as placing Uppsala high up in the mountains.

Swedish mountains are a big problem in American ideas of Scandinavia in general. The CGI rotor-scoped Beowulf had them too. Apparently Scandinavia is Norway on both sides.

[Socratov]

Oh i know. I just find him a more intersting character.
The more I think about it, the "dung ages" and "constand face dirt" really annoys me more and more. It's like they did all this research, then threw it out the window at places just because the audience expects dirt, or something. At least i hope that is the case, because if they genuinely believe vikings walked around all day (and slept all night) with mud on their faces... :smallsigh:

Also, I know it's a matter of taste, but the Internet is apparently aflame with desire for Lagertha... It's like they never seen an average-looking Scandinavian woman before :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

to be honest, I love the series. Not only is it actually trying to be histrorically correct, it's bold. And yes a lot of people haven't been to Sweden (or other scandinavian countries for that matter) and thus have the hots for Lagertha. When it comes to women Sweden is often (at least by some friends of mine) as the holy land of hot women. One of my friends did an internship there syaing he was on pilgrimage. Yes, I have some weird friends :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

Edit: the series are made in Ireland btw. That explains a lot about the quality of accents and language as well as the non-hollywood feel :smallamused:

[Avilan the Grey]

Swedish mountains are a big problem in American ideas of Scandinavia in general. The CGI rotor-scoped Beowulf had them too. Apparently Scandinavia is Norway on both sides.

Yeah... In reality it is something like this:
Norway has 100000000000 mountains. Sweden has 200. Denmark has... a rather small hill.

(Not to be taken 100% seriously!)

:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Well, within 150 years they might learn the truth. It took them about that long to stop making horned helmets...

[BWR]

Except the bit about Denmark's hill. Seriously, Himmelbjerget (http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himmelbjerget) (the heavenly hill/mountain) would count as no more than a smallish hill here.

[t209]

So Live action version of Vinland Saga, except it doesn't have Robbaz (http://www.youtube.com/user/Robbaz) equivalent named Thorkell, Viking ninja, and set in viking take over of England (like collapse of Charlesmagne and Rise of Canute the Great).

[Hawriel]

If they are not selling slavs into slavery then they are not real vikings.

[t209]

If they are not selling slavs into slavery then they are not real vikings.
Then again, everyone has slave back then. a slave can come from any race too; Irish, Saxons, Norse, and even unlucky Frank. But Slave did have a chance to be freed but it's still a terrible system, especially in a mine.

[Winter_Wolf]

I'm pretty happy with the show, at least the episodes I've seen. They did a Vikings marathon and I ended up thinking they'd have been smarter to split it up into two days, though. Only saw season one, but I'm pretty sure I saw most of the episodes in a row. (Surprisingly STILL not as painful as watching a director's cut of any of the Lord of the Rings films.)

I will say that while I have no illusions about anything on the History channel being anything more than "based on" history, I thought this was a much better rendition than I was expecting. It's interesting to hear opinions from people who actually live in Scandinavia regarding the show, though.

It surprises me that even though I think of Ragnar as an incredible butthead, the actor still manages to make him sympathetic. I don't actually like him, but I still want him to succeed. Actually I felt pretty sympathetic to most of the characters, even Ragnar's jarl.

[Frozen_Feet]

Except the bit about Denmark's hill. Seriously, Himmelbjerget (http://nn.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himmelbjerget) (the heavenly hill/mountain) would count as no more than a smallish hill here.

Yeah, even we Finnish people laugh at it and we only have a couple moderately tall fjelds.

[Opperhapsen]

Everyone is dirty. Why? Vikings washed themselves every day. Yet everybody except the king has dirty faces.

The Norse probably washed about once a week, we can base this knowledge on the fact that Saturday is called "Bathday" in the Scandinavian languages.
We also know that this is more than what the Anglo-Saxons and French did.

So
y'know
There's that.

By our standards they weren't very cleanly, but they were quite vain.
We know this because some of the most common Viking artefacts are tweezers, combs, brushes, razors, and ear picks.

[Avilan the Grey]

The Norse probably washed about once a week, we can base this knowledge on the fact that Saturday is called "Bathday" in the Scandinavian languages.
We also know that this is more than what the Anglo-Saxons and French did.

"Bath" and "Wash" are two different things. A fully naked-in-wooden-tub bath is one thing. To wash hands and face every morning is something else.

[t209]

So Avilan,
How would you compare this show to Vinland Saga?

[Avilan the Grey]

So Avilan,
How would you compare this show to Vinland Saga?

Never heard of that one, sorry.

[Giggling Ghast]

The dirtiness of the Vikings may simply be a case of Reality is Unrealistic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic); modern viewers expect people living a thousand years ago to be filthy savages, so the show adds a layer of dirt to its cast to keep people from complaining.

[Socratov]

The dirtiness of the Vikings may simply be a case of Reality is Unrealistic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic); modern viewers expect people living a thousand years ago to be filthy savages, so the show adds a layer of dirt to its cast to keep people from complaining.

you know, it's considered polite to warn people of TvTropes links. They are known to be addictive.

[t209]

Never heard of that one, sorry.

It's a manga about vikings. But it is set during king sweyn's reign.

[warty goblin]

The dirtiness of the Vikings may simply be a case of Reality is Unrealistic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic); modern viewers expect people living a thousand years ago to be filthy savages, so the show adds a layer of dirt to its cast to keep people from complaining.

Meh. You spend all day doing physical labor outdoors, or in other dirty places, you get dirty. This isn't particularly hard to figure out. If you do it day after day, pretty soon modern one-shower-a-day standards of cleaniness start to seem pretty stupid. In my experience when I'm actually doing hard labor, bathing starts to become a once every three or four days sort of thing, with somewhat more regular attention paid to the actual obvious dirt.

[Irenaeus]

I watched the first five episodes back when they started airing it.

I didn't really chose to let some of the dramatic approaches to history bug me much, but I thought I'd share a two things I noticed which hasn't been mentioned.

The first is that they seem to approach the ancient Norse society as a fairly authoritharian tribalism, which doesn't really fit well with the sources we have, showing a high degree of egalitarianism (if you were an adult, free male, at least), with leaders being very much dependent on the approval of his warriors.

Secondly, it seems to depict a society based largely around a modern nuclear family at a time when the extended family was extremely dominant. I understand that screenwriters dislike this (as they often dislike any family relations which they do not have a clear purpose with), but I'd like to see it represented, as it would have been a fairly good way to enchance the feeling of exotic historicity.

I disliked the costume design of Lagertha when she took to the field, but I can't remember the specifics, so I don't have much interesting stuff to add there.

[Avilan the Grey]

with somewhat more regular attention paid to the actual obvious dirt.

That's my point. Only in "The Dirt Ages" media people walk around with obvious mud on their faces. You might be smelly, and have bad dentaly hygiene compared to modern times, but no vikings nor medieval peasants would be caught dead walking to the market (or just sitting by the pot, cooking food for dinner) being all muddy.

[t209]

That's my point. Only in "The Dirt Ages" media people walk around with obvious mud on their faces. You might be smelly, and have bad dentaly hygiene compared to modern times, but no vikings nor medieval peasants would be caught dead walking to the market (or just sitting by the pot, cooking food for dinner) being all muddy.
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=342
This comic should explain all the clinches in Hollywood. But knight's tale done it right (other than the silly one).

[JadedDM]

I watched the first season, up to the second to the last episode. Then I just lost interest in it and never finished. I don't even remember why, really. I can't speak for its historical accuracy, but I didn't overall find it all that entertaining.

[Wardog]

...
This is from the witness of the Arabian trader who also claimed to be the lover of the queen of Iceland. Among other things.
But even if that is true, the actual mud would disolve and wash off. Even if the water is dirty, the visible layers of dirt would disappear.

As it happens, I was browsing a book about the vikings in my local bookshop the other day.

Apparently, while Ahmad ibn Fadlan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_ibn_Fadlan) claimed the vikings were disgustingly filthy (not washing after having having sex or going to the toilet, and sharing the same washbasin after having spat and blown their noses in it), a Persian diplomat of roughly the same era (sorry, I can't remember his name) claimed the vikings he met were the cleanest people he ever saw.

I don't know if that means one of the reports is more reliable than the other, or just that Ahmad ibn Fadlan just had the misfortune to run into a particularly grotty bunch of vikings.

[BWR]

Could also be that Ahmad just relayed what he'd heard from another source. Or that he invented it wholecloth for whatever reason. Or that he exaggerated somethings.
Or that the other person hadn't actually witnessed these disgusting habits that Ahmad had.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't know if that means one of the reports is more reliable than the other, or just that Ahmad ibn Fadlan just had the misfortune to run into a particularly grotty bunch of vikings.

It seems Ahmad was a bit of a story teller, he claimed to have been taken all the way to Iceland, of which there is little proof (scolars are fairly sure he actually spent time with real Vikings, but he might have done it in present day Germany, or France or Russia at trading posts).
And of course he kept telling everyone that the beautiful redheaded Viking queen of Iceland fell instantly in love with him and they slept together several times.

...So yeah, I'd put more money on the other guy.

[Ravens_cry]

That's my point. Only in "The Dirt Ages" media people walk around with obvious mud on their faces. You might be smelly, and have bad dentaly hygiene compared to modern times, but no vikings nor medieval peasants would be caught dead walking to the market (or just sitting by the pot, cooking food for dinner) being all muddy.
And even 'smelly' is a relative thing, as your nose (or, rather, your brain) gets desensitized after a while. Furthermore, the lack of availability of sugar and white breads to most meant teeth were probably not too bad. Not straight mind, and certainly not that blinding, Hollywood, white, but not as bad as you might expect. The richer classes had options as well (http://www.gallowglass.org/jadwiga/herbs/teeth.html#Wine_Rinse_and_Herb_chewing).

[t209]

Now it's turning into Smelly vikings debate.
Anyway, I kinda viewed it as Live Action version of Vinland Saga (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/vinland_saga/v01/c001/52.html), except it's set in the year 1000s (which was justifiable for some Viking adopting Feudalism) the later chapters of the manga gave them some sympathetic sides (though they do keep slaves and treat them brutally for our modern eyes).