[3.5 Class] An angry little girl aka the Barbarian that didn't smash.

[wombatula]

So my players are doing a campaign soon that spreads over a long amount of time, and one of them has requested to play, and I quote, "An angry little girl". They wanted to be a barbarian, but wanted to be more dexterity based rather than strength, since for a significant part of the campaign their character will be a pre-teen girl whom I imagine would have some trouble wielding a greatsword that outweighs herself.

Now, we aren't married to Barbarian here, other classes are possible, but Barbarian does 90% of what the player wants, but seems to be too reliant on strength and if only for RP reasons the player was planning on picking up Weapon Finesse and using light weapons, and had suggested punch-daggers or, and again players words here "Some wicked Wolverine claws because then I could be like X-23, but obviously not built into my hands". The main thing that the player wanted from Barbarian was the whole anger and rage theme, since that seems to be the focus here.

I did a little bit of digging and couldn't really find anything appropriate, all the Barbarian variants I found were either not really any closer to what I was searching for, or were even further away from what I needed. Perhaps I could solve this issue with a couple feats? Are there any feats to switch the rage bonuses to dex possibly? Are there any feats or early prestige classes for non-Barbarians that emulate Rage to a certain extent? Or are we just stuck between a rock (not getting the theme the player wants) and a hard place (either having a gimped character or having to radically bend the rules to give them a non gimped character?).


While discussing this with a friend he linked this homebrew variant:

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Hunter%27s_Trance_(3.5e_Alternate_Class_Feature)

Seems a simple solution, looks balanced to me anyone else think otherwise?

[Vanitas]

There is a variant Barbarian in Unearthed Arcana that gets an extra attack in Rage - definitely speed based.
There is an elf prestige class in Races of the Wild called Wildrunner that gets a Dex-boosting reagelike ability.

[Greymane]

If you're willing to go less physical, Wilder can fit this idea rather well. But with angry mind powers instead.

[ArcturusV]

Might want to look into Sohei. Sohei is basically an unholy cross between Barbarian and Paladin, with some Monk to flavor.

Key facets:

1) Requires a lawful alignment. Might be a deal breaker for the character. Might not be. Worth mentioning as you were looking into Barbarians who can never be Lawful.

2) Has Paladin Like spell casting (Minor caster, divine flavoring, buffs and healing mostly).

3) Instead of Rage they get "Ki Frenzy" which gives them +Dex instead, and allows them to use a Flurry of Blows. Not quite a Flurry of Misses because unlike the Monk the Sohei is full BaB and not quite as MAD.

4) They get Mettle, that "Evasion for Fort and Will" which can fit the idea of an angry little girl who can just seethe right through things.

[wombatula]

While discussing this with a friend he linked this homebrew variant:

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Hunter%27s_Trance_(3.5e_Alternate_Class_Feature)

Seems a simple solution, looks balanced to me anyone else think otherwise?

[DogbertLinc]

Ferocity, from "Urban Class Features" web enhancement, gives +4str/+4dex rage and Whirling Frenzy is a reasonable option too (It is in srd).

She can also multiclass into Swordsage for Shadow Blade (dex to damage).

A Druid Avenger (SRD) gets rage (and presumably can get rage ACFs, too) so she can be magic rage person.

[avr]

The Hunter's Trance certainly isn't imbalanced on the high side. I mean, it's interesting, but it doesn't last long enough to be useful often outside of combat, and it's not like they'd be doing a lot of damage with a mediocre strength and a non-increasing +1d6 damage.

With Barbarian 1-2/Swordsage X she could have good defences and adequate offence. Setting Sun could find that dex/wis boost handy and your player may enjoy the image of a little girl doing anime judo throws.

[Prime32]

The Frantic Rage feat from Faiths of Eberron lets you switch your rage's Str bonus to a Dex bonus. You need access to the Madness domain though. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773)

Try combining it with Whirling Frenzy for extra dodginess. And don't forget to take the Shadow Blade feat for Dex to damage.

[PraxisVetli]

3) Instead of Rage they get "Ki Frenzy" which gives them +Dex instead, and allows them to use a Flurry of Blows. Not quite a Flurry of Misses because unlike the Monk the Sohei is full BaB and not quite as MAD.

Sohei has 3/4 BAB

[Eldan]

THere are several ACFs that give dex-based rage and they are all pretty nice in the right build. You might want to model a human child as a halfling, I've done that before and it works quite well. Feat-halfling (was it strongheart?), maybe.

[wombatula]

THere are several ACFs that give dex-based rage and they are all pretty nice in the right build. You might want to model a human child as a halfling, I've done that before and it works quite well. Feat-halfling (was it strongheart?), maybe.


The main issue with that is while the character will be a child for a chunk of the campaign, by mid campaign she will be a teenager, by late campaign an adult. Doing it like that would require her to be basically completely rebuilt between phases of the campaign, whereas using the model I am currently planning on its just a matter of removing ability modifiers once she hits her teen years.

[Yuki Akuma]

The main issue with that is while the character will be a child for a chunk of the campaign, by mid campaign she will be a teenager, by late campaign an adult. Doing it like that would require her to be basically completely rebuilt between phases of the campaign, whereas using the model I am currently planning on its just a matter of removing ability modifiers once she hits her teen years.

You'd better not be giving her a bonus to Dexterity.

Not only would that screw her over when she grows up (if her build is Dex-focused), have you ever seen a kid do... anything? If anything they should have a Dex penalty, and yet I always see people applying +Dex to "child" templates.

[Fax Celestis]

I might recommend beguiler.

This sounds insane, but hear me out. Beguilers get rage as a spell, and smashiness is not expected of a beguiler. You'll get a ton of skill points, socially manipulative spellcasting (which, applied judiciously, can be masked as a child plying its influence on another), rage, and other Enchantment buffs.

Also, you can turn invisible, rage, and then smack a dude in the back of the head.

For added hilarity, take Smiting Spell or three levels of duskblade so you can smack people with whelming touch.

[Spore]

Urban Barbarian (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/barbarian.html#_urban-barbarian-%28archetype%29) Archetype for PF Barbarians.

[wombatula]

You'd better not be giving her a bonus to Dexterity.

Not only would that screw her over when she grows up (if her build is Dex-focused), have you ever seen a kid do... anything? If anything they should have a Dex penalty, and yet I always see people applying +Dex to "child" templates.


I obviously would not, all ability modifiers are NEGATIVE when a child, but thank you for the vote of confidence in my abilities as a DM.

[AstralFire]

Is there any problem with the whirling frenzy Barbarian in Unearthed Arcana/d20srd.org?

[Hiro Protagonest]

since for a significant part of the campaign their character will be a pre-teen girl whom I imagine would have some trouble wielding a greatsword that outweighs herself.

You just haven't watched enough anime.

[Telonius]

Sounds like a Swordsage focused in Tiger Claw to me, maybe with a dip into Barbarian.

[HaikenEdge]

How married to the idea of a specific race is the player? If not, maybe a Shifter might work, with the shift being fluffed as more of an anger thing, as opposed to a lycanthropy thing.

[Kennisiou]

Seconding Sohei. It fits what the character wants to a T and it's easy to refluff its oriental flavorings to some other sort of martial power.

Edit x2: Also, consider having the player get two weapon fighting. For "speed based" play it seems like stacking lots of attacks with on-hit effects attached is good. Splashing a few scout levels and maybe seeing if the DM will allow a feat similar to swift tracker that lets scout and sohei levels stack to determine skirmish effectiveness as well as ki frenzies/day and their strength could be a good idea (and is pretty light rule 0 use considering Sohei and Scout are both classes that really wish they had more splatbook support than they wound up getting).

Edit x3: Assuming that rule 0 were allowed, a tentative build I'd use would be spirit lion totem barbarian 1 (for pounce and the rage theming) sohei 15, scout 4. If it's not allowed, I'd consider going with the spirit lion totem dip anyways since pounce is super useful on characters that are reliant on multiple attacks for damage.

[Clistenes]

If you are willing to use a homebrew, I once found a Barbarian variant for an Al-qadim, game, the Dervish. I can't find the link, so I will copy it here (I saved it):

Dervish (Barbarian)
Except as noted below, the dervish class is equivalent to the
barbarian class in the SRD.

The dervish is a warrior who serves a cause with single-minded
intensity, to the point that he becomes a whirling, living
weapon of destruction in service to that cause. Unlike the
barbarian of the northern lands, the dervish is literate; a part of
civilized society, he may be lawful, neutral, or chaotic. What
distinguishes him from others is not his style of dress or lack of
manners, but his intense devotion.

The cause for which a dervish fights can be any, as long as it is
strongly held. The dervish may seek to promote a religious
faith, to follow a charismatic leader, or to complete a great task.
If the dervish is ever without a cause – because of a completed
task, a slain leader, or any other reason – the dervish is unable
to frenzy until a new cause is selected.

Adventures: A dervish’s devotion to his chosen cause in life is
the source of his power as well as the meaning for his
existence. To this end, he will undertake adventures whenever
they promote that cause or are complementary; the dervish
will never willingly undertake actions which would harm his
cause.

Races: Human dervishes can be found in both nomadic tribes
and in cities, although they tend to keep a lower profile within
settled towns. Half-orc dervishes are common among the orc
tribes, and many have sworn oaths of vengeance against the
dune elves. The single-mindedness of the dervish holds appeal
for the kheri, while jannlings are drawn to the flash of the
dance. Most sewer goblins and sandstorm halflings lack the
desire to follow the way of the dervish.

Religion: For some dervishes, religious faith may be
completely irrelevant. For others, it is their raison d’etre.
Fiery rhetoric and appeals to emotion tend to hold greater
sway among the dervishes than clear thinking and profound
theology. Dervishes are rarely Pantheists; the most common
deities worshiped by the dervishes include Hajima the Brave,
Old Kor, and Namj the Adventurous.

Other Classes: Dervishes see nearly all other people as being
passionless, especially dour faris, fakirs, and viziers. They are
drawn to strong personalities such as desert riders, sha’irs,
mystics, and moralist priests. Most everyone else is
unimportant.

Abilities: Constitution is a key ability for the dervish as it
determines how long a whirling frenzy may last. Dexterity is
also important as frenzies preclude the wearing of all but light
armor. Charisma and Intelligence are of least priority to the
dervish; he already knows his cause is right, so what does he
care what you think of him?

Alignment: Any.

Class Skills:
The dervish's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Cha), Intimidate
(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis),
Perform (dance) (Cha), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
Class Abilities:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dervish is proficient
with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and shields
(except tower shields).
Literacy: [replaces Illiteracy] Dervishes are, like members of
other classes, able to read and write.
Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Rage] A dervish can fly into
a whirling frenzy a certain number of times per day. In a
whirling frenzy, a dervish temporarily gains a +4 bonus to
Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class on on Reflex
saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the dervish may make one
extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this
attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that
round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks
of opportunity the dervish might make before his next action.
While raging, a dervish cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-,
or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist,
Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities
that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or
activate magic items that require a command word, a spell
trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to
function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise,
item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of whirling
frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character's
Constitution modifier. A dervish may prematurely end his
whirling frenzy. At the end of the whirling frenzy, the dervish
loses the whirling frenzy modifiers and restrictions and
becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to
Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of the current
encounter (unless he is a 17th-level dervish, at which point this
limitation no longer applies; see below).
A dervish can fly into a whirling frenzy only once per
encounter. At 1st level he can use his whirling frenzy ability
once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he
can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six
times per day at 20th level). Entering a whirling frenzy takes
no time itself, but a dervish can do it only during his action, not
in response to someone else's action.
Greater Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Greater Rage] At
11th level, a dervish's bonus to Strength during his whirling
frenzy increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class
and on Reflex saves increases to +3.
Instinctive Reflexes (Ex): [replaces Indominable Will] While
in a whirling frenzy, a dervish of 14th level or higher gains the
evasion ability. If the dervish makes a successful Reflex saving
throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a
successful save, he instead takes no damage.
If the dervish already possesses the evasion ability from
another source, the dervish gains improved evasion while in a
whirling frenzy. He still takes no damage on a successful
Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes
only half damage on a failed save.

Tireless Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Tireless Rage] At
17th level and higher, a dervish no longer becomes fatigued at
the end of his whirling frenzy.

Mighty Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Mighty Rage] At
20th level, a dervish's bonus to Strength during his whirling
frenzy increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class
and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

Replace the Strength bonus during Frenzy with a Dexterity bonus, and be done with it.

[Ruethgar]

The Implaceable barbarian(Dragon 330) gets dex and DR on their rage. They lose fast movement though which takes out the barbarian's most valued ability(pounce). A dip in kensai fighter could help with the potentially exotic weapon, granting proficiency, damage and attack with one level. If your player wouldn't mind going unarmed, you could tack on City Brawler which would get two weapon fighting if you wanted it and it would mesh well with a ward cestus kensai. Chaos martial monk is always nice, even without cheese. Shapeshift druid is a good dip for some free boosts. The passion domain is technically valid for Extend Rage and could get you an infinite number of lesser rages with a one level cleric dip and a feat.

[wombatula]

Seconding Sohei. It fits what the character wants to a T and it's easy to refluff its oriental flavorings to some other sort of martial power.

Edit x2: Also, consider having the player get two weapon fighting. For "speed based" play it seems like stacking lots of attacks with on-hit effects attached is good. Splashing a few scout levels and maybe seeing if the DM will allow a feat similar to swift tracker that lets scout and sohei levels stack to determine skirmish effectiveness as well as ki frenzies/day and their strength could be a good idea (and is pretty light rule 0 use considering Sohei and Scout are both classes that really wish they had more splatbook support than they wound up getting).

Edit x3: Assuming that rule 0 were allowed, a tentative build I'd use would be spirit lion totem barbarian 1 (for pounce and the rage theming) sohei 15, scout 4. If it's not allowed, I'd consider going with the spirit lion totem dip anyways since pounce is super useful on characters that are reliant on multiple attacks for damage.

I am the DM, and not sure if I would allow it. Also I absolutely guarantee that level 20 is not happening in this campaign. We also already have a scout in the group so I would be hesitant to allow it if only for that reason, as the scout player would be heavily marginalized in this case.

[wombatula]

How married to the idea of a specific race is the player? If not, maybe a Shifter might work, with the shift being fluffed as more of an anger thing, as opposed to a lycanthropy thing.


For the sake of the campaign I've requested Human, Elf, and Dwarf only and the players agreed to it. Racial conflict is at the heart of the story, and it's a homebrew setting (still FR but a small continent set apart from the established canon).

[wombatula]

If you are willing to use a homebrew, I once found a Barbarian variant for an Al-qadim, game, the Dervish. I can't find the link, so I will copy it here (I saved it):

Dervish (Barbarian)
Except as noted below, the dervish class is equivalent to the
barbarian class in the SRD.

The dervish is a warrior who serves a cause with single-minded
intensity, to the point that he becomes a whirling, living
weapon of destruction in service to that cause. Unlike the
barbarian of the northern lands, the dervish is literate; a part of
civilized society, he may be lawful, neutral, or chaotic. What
distinguishes him from others is not his style of dress or lack of
manners, but his intense devotion.

The cause for which a dervish fights can be any, as long as it is
strongly held. The dervish may seek to promote a religious
faith, to follow a charismatic leader, or to complete a great task.
If the dervish is ever without a cause – because of a completed
task, a slain leader, or any other reason – the dervish is unable
to frenzy until a new cause is selected.

Adventures: A dervish’s devotion to his chosen cause in life is
the source of his power as well as the meaning for his
existence. To this end, he will undertake adventures whenever
they promote that cause or are complementary; the dervish
will never willingly undertake actions which would harm his
cause.

Races: Human dervishes can be found in both nomadic tribes
and in cities, although they tend to keep a lower profile within
settled towns. Half-orc dervishes are common among the orc
tribes, and many have sworn oaths of vengeance against the
dune elves. The single-mindedness of the dervish holds appeal
for the kheri, while jannlings are drawn to the flash of the
dance. Most sewer goblins and sandstorm halflings lack the
desire to follow the way of the dervish.

Religion: For some dervishes, religious faith may be
completely irrelevant. For others, it is their raison d’etre.
Fiery rhetoric and appeals to emotion tend to hold greater
sway among the dervishes than clear thinking and profound
theology. Dervishes are rarely Pantheists; the most common
deities worshiped by the dervishes include Hajima the Brave,
Old Kor, and Namj the Adventurous.

Other Classes: Dervishes see nearly all other people as being
passionless, especially dour faris, fakirs, and viziers. They are
drawn to strong personalities such as desert riders, sha’irs,
mystics, and moralist priests. Most everyone else is
unimportant.

Abilities: Constitution is a key ability for the dervish as it
determines how long a whirling frenzy may last. Dexterity is
also important as frenzies preclude the wearing of all but light
armor. Charisma and Intelligence are of least priority to the
dervish; he already knows his cause is right, so what does he
care what you think of him?

Alignment: Any.

Class Skills:
The dervish's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Cha), Intimidate
(Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis),
Perform (dance) (Cha), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex).
Class Abilities:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dervish is proficient
with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, and shields
(except tower shields).
Literacy: [replaces Illiteracy] Dervishes are, like members of
other classes, able to read and write.
Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Rage] A dervish can fly into
a whirling frenzy a certain number of times per day. In a
whirling frenzy, a dervish temporarily gains a +4 bonus to
Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class on on Reflex
saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the dervish may make one
extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this
attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that
round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks
of opportunity the dervish might make before his next action.
While raging, a dervish cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-,
or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist,
Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities
that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or
activate magic items that require a command word, a spell
trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to
function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise,
item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of whirling
frenzy lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character's
Constitution modifier. A dervish may prematurely end his
whirling frenzy. At the end of the whirling frenzy, the dervish
loses the whirling frenzy modifiers and restrictions and
becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to
Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of the current
encounter (unless he is a 17th-level dervish, at which point this
limitation no longer applies; see below).
A dervish can fly into a whirling frenzy only once per
encounter. At 1st level he can use his whirling frenzy ability
once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he
can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six
times per day at 20th level). Entering a whirling frenzy takes
no time itself, but a dervish can do it only during his action, not
in response to someone else's action.
Greater Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Greater Rage] At
11th level, a dervish's bonus to Strength during his whirling
frenzy increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class
and on Reflex saves increases to +3.
Instinctive Reflexes (Ex): [replaces Indominable Will] While
in a whirling frenzy, a dervish of 14th level or higher gains the
evasion ability. If the dervish makes a successful Reflex saving
throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a
successful save, he instead takes no damage.
If the dervish already possesses the evasion ability from
another source, the dervish gains improved evasion while in a
whirling frenzy. He still takes no damage on a successful
Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes
only half damage on a failed save.

Tireless Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Tireless Rage] At
17th level and higher, a dervish no longer becomes fatigued at
the end of his whirling frenzy.

Mighty Whirling Frenzy (Ex): [replaces Mighty Rage] At
20th level, a dervish's bonus to Strength during his whirling
frenzy increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class
and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

Replace the Strength bonus during Frenzy with a Dexterity bonus, and be done with it.

This could be a good answer, definitely one of the most viable choices as it retains balance while still giving the player what they want.

[Metahuman1]

I would consider the following build.

Unarmed Swordsage 2/ Totemist X.

Fluff the unarmed strikes as vicious attacks were there gonna hurt. Eye gouges, Jugular/throat shots, crotch shots, that kinda thing.

Use a Shadow Hand Stance and get Shadow Blade Strike, which I believe works on natural weapons. Now, get loads of natural weapon soul melds, and fluff it as channeling her fury to turn her very soul into a weapon. Since you've got metric tones of attacks, you can fluff it as attacking with intense speed and unbridled ferocity.

The force property in MiC, the Speed property in the monster manual, and the Mage slayer Property form Complete Arcane would all be exceptional properties to consider for this build on an amulet of Mighty Firsts.

Force makes it so DR doesn't make you nearly unplayable, Speed doubles your attacks in a full attack action just about, and Mage Slayer will add a lot of damage to anything that is in any way magical, which after a certain level is everything.

Dex based so you don't need more then really a 10 str, maybe a 13 if you decide there some feat you MUST have. But that does mean you seriously wanna pump your dex something fierce.