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Balor01
2013-11-22, 06:54 AM
So, after being raided by adventurers, goblin tribe figured out, hiring other adventurers to kill the first party would be the best deal.

Primary party is operating in mountainous area, devastating the goblin tribes.

My question is, what would be a good way for "adventurer hunters" to approach this beyond following a trail of destruction and eventually sneak up on enemy party? How would "hunters" maximize their advantage?

thanks

Sidmen
2013-11-22, 07:00 AM
Well, can we assume that the first party isn't exactly being smart about their travel plans (standard operating procedure seems to be dumping tons of gold and looted stuff on every random village as they pass)? So finding the actual party won't be a real concern?

If I were in charge of finding and killing an adventuring party - I'd follow them to the next dungeon delve and wait, oh, half an hour after they enter the dungeon. Then I'd follow them in. By the time I caught up with them, I'd expect that all their spells and consumables would be more-or-less expended. And if they come out beforehand, it's probably because they just got savaged and needed to come back up for resupply.

That's just the nastiest way I can think of to hunt down a party. Specific tactics would rely on the specific party I was hunting and my own level and resources.

lytokk
2013-11-22, 08:21 AM
Track them down, and figure out where the next stop is. After they've raided a dungeon, find out what town they're going to next. Set up a shop there (or take one by force) and when they split up to spend their money, take them out one at a time.

Alternatively, stay at the inn inside the town (hopefully just one, otherwise book rooms at every inn) and take them out quickly and quietly in their sleep.

Balor01
2013-11-22, 08:44 AM
when they split up to spend their money.

take them out quickly and quietly in their sleep.

1. they don't split up. ever.

2. they always keep one person as a guard. They call it "protocol beta".

SethoMarkus
2013-11-22, 09:39 AM
If this is intended to be PC vs PC groups of adventurers:
First, make sure each group is alright with Player vs Player conflicts. If they are, run it just like you would any other campaign, but be sure to keep the groups separate. I can't really think of a good way to run this in person without risking meta-knowledge, but some groups can handle that. Otherwise, a forum game seems the best way to do this.

As far as actual tracking the other party down, it shouldn't be any more difficult than tracking any NPC raiding party. The Track feat can be used to follow the physical path; divination can be used to locate the party; Gather Information in towns that the party has visited (shouldn't be too difficult to find these; just look for the surplus gold concentration!); etc. As long as the party isn't actively trying to cover up their tracks, just follow the smoke.


If this is intended to be PC mercenaries hired by goblins vs NPC adventurer raiders:
Standard procedure, except you have unusual patrons. Most of what I said above still applies here, but keep in mind that the NPCs will probably be slightly more prepared for a fight specifically against the PC group than if they were also PCs (especially if the PCs did not know they were being tracked). This may not be entirely fair, but the DM will probably take some creative license to ensure the encounter ends up being more than the PCs taking out the NPCs in their sleep via coup de gras.


If this is intended to be NPC mercenaries vs PC raiders:
Run this encounter as though it were any other ambush against the PCs. Allow the PCs a saving throw if they are being scryed on, roll spot checks and listen checks if they are being followed/tracked closely, and generally feed into a sense of paranoia. Eventually, a group semi-optimized to take out the PCs will show themselves and force a confrontation.


For actual combat tactics, reconnaissance is key. Scrying and divination are useful, but don't underestimate good old-fashion investigative roleplaying. If you come across a goblin campsite that the target party has raided, use knowledge, search, and spellcraft checks to try to figure out just what happened. Heck, you can even approach the other group on friendly terms and backstab them when they are most vulnerable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html). Once you know the party's modus operandi you can start to plan specifics.

Really, without knowing more about each group involved, we can't offer specific tactics, but good things to consider are battlefield control, ambush tactics, and counter tactics. Have a way to control the field to your advantage, whether that be spells like Wall of Force or separating the party throughout a structure; divide and conquer. If you are tracking, only attack when you are guaranteed a surprise round; hit the enemy hard before they know you are even attacking. If you are being tracked, well, the OP already mentioned "protocol beta"; hope that it works. Always know your own weaknesses and how to overcome them; always know how your attacks can be countered and how to avoid that; always have a back-up plan for when things go sour; and, always know where the (safest) exit is.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-11-22, 10:55 AM
Most importantly, make sure that you're very specific in your setup, that you make it clear to the players during/after the fact that these are trained thugs who were hired by the goblins. You don't want it to feel arbitrary.

geeky_monkey
2013-11-22, 11:16 AM
Why bother tracking them?

Just sit in a tavern looking mysterious and they'll come to you!

You can then send them off into an ambush with the promise of easy XP and gold.

Morithias
2013-11-22, 11:19 AM
Well, can we assume that the first party isn't exactly being smart about their travel plans (standard operating procedure seems to be dumping tons of gold and looted stuff on every random village as they pass)? So finding the actual party won't be a real concern?

If I were in charge of finding and killing an adventuring party - I'd follow them to the next dungeon delve and wait, oh, half an hour after they enter the dungeon. Then I'd follow them in. By the time I caught up with them, I'd expect that all their spells and consumables would be more-or-less expended. And if they come out beforehand, it's probably because they just got savaged and needed to come back up for resupply.

That's just the nastiest way I can think of to hunt down a party. Specific tactics would rely on the specific party I was hunting and my own level and resources.

That is exactly what people used to do in Ultima Online. It was a brutal game, and player hunting was one of the best ways to make money.

Ducklord
2013-11-22, 11:21 AM
Why would anyone in their right mind want to attempt attacking a party of murder hobos? If the goblin tribe is so easy to loot, why don't they loot it themselves? :smallbiggrin:

awa
2013-11-22, 02:50 PM
why would pcs even bother going into the goblin cave they could just murder all the farmers they meet and take there live stock, the wealth carries itself.

seriously though
Pcs have a ton of loot for there cr if the mercenaries get to keep it on top of there goblins pay that is a good deal for them.

Jay R
2013-11-22, 03:03 PM
Why would anyone in their right mind ...

"adventurers".

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-22, 03:13 PM
Why bother tracking them?

Just sit in a tavern looking mysterious and they'll come to you!

You can then send them off into an ambush with the promise of easy XP and gold.

why bother sending them off into an ambush? poison the ale and have your caster summon up some succubus and incubus bar workers, they'll kill themselves off while paying you for it.

Slipperychicken
2013-11-22, 04:32 PM
Most importantly, make sure that you're very specific in your setup, that you make it clear to the players during/after the fact that these are trained thugs who were hired by the goblins. You don't want it to feel arbitrary.

Stick an agreement/bounty in a note on one of their corpses, which mentions that a goblin tribe hired them. If your PCs kill them and loot the bodies, then they'll find the note and hopefully read it*. Even though goblins don't write (at least by PF lore anyway), then maybe it's a reminder for the mercenary. Or a journal entry.


*If your players decide not to read the obviously plot-important note they found on their assassins' bodies (I find it absolutely shocking that some players do things like that), then go "durr hurr why'd deze boyz attak us, we're da heroz lawl", you can feel comfortable knowing that their stupidity knows no bounds.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-22, 04:35 PM
Stick an agreement/bounty in a note on one of their corpses, which mentions that a goblin tribe hired them. If your PCs kill them and loot the bodies, then they'll find the note and hopefully read it*. Even though goblins don't write (at least by PF lore anyway), then maybe it's a reminder for the mercenary. Or a journal entry.


*If your players decide not to read the obviously plot-important note they found on their assassins' bodies (I find it absolutely shocking that some players do things like that), then go "durr hurr why'd deze boyz attak us, we're da heroz lawl", you can feel comfortable knowing that their stupidity knows no bounds.

well...how heroic and smart are they really if they go in and butcher/steal from a tribe of goblins civil enough to use mercenaries to regain their lost goods instead of just going on a butchering spree at the nearby villages, then immediately after said mercenaries catch up to them think "oh hey they weren't justified in revenge at all, let's go kill and steal what's left of their base!"

Slipperychicken
2013-11-22, 04:49 PM
well...how heroic and smart are they really if they go in and butcher/steal from a tribe of goblins civil enough to use mercenaries to regain their lost goods instead of just going on a butchering spree at the nearby villages, then immediately after said mercenaries catch up to them think "oh hey they weren't justified in revenge at all, let's go kill and steal what's left of their base!"

I find this bit particularly ironic. There's nothing civil about paying people to kill each other.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-22, 04:55 PM
I find this bit particularly ironic. There's nothing civil about paying people to kill each other.

depends on how you describe civil. we've had "civil" wars that are some of the bloodiest fights in history. to most civilized cultures the idea that it's not as bad if you aren't the one doing it is pervasive and allows the use of mercenaries, especially in response to being attacked and stolen from, to be considered a perfectly reasonable response. is it nice and kind? no. is it more reasonable than going out yourself and starting a fight? yes.

Slipperychicken
2013-11-22, 04:57 PM
is it nice and kind? no.

That's the definition of "civil" I went with, since you were discussing the use of mercenaries in relation to goblins being justified in taking revenge.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-22, 05:03 PM
That's the definition of "civil" I went with, since you were discussing the use of mercenaries in relation to goblins being justified in taking revenge.

ok then, allow me to rephrase back to my first point on the matter. what's better, sending mercenaries to defeat a group that in your eyes just butchered friends and family and took their valuables as a trophy..or going out to the nearest towns to do the same in order to get the resources to go and fight the enemy yourself. which of the two implies a higher degree of logical thought and organization and which implies nothing more than blind rage.

Slipperychicken
2013-11-22, 05:28 PM
a higher degree of logical thought and organization and which implies nothing more than blind rage.

Thought and organization don't imply justification. Even the most depraved and unreasonable people can pay for murder. I would personally see it just as a desperate (and costly) continuation of the violence, rather than some shocking revelation of goblins' civility.

Besides, everyone knows that goblins are intelligent (or at least sentient) creatures. Their ability to hire mercenaries shouldn't come as such a shock.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-22, 05:38 PM
Thought and organization don't imply justification. Even the most depraved and unreasonable people can pay for murder. I would personally see it just as a desperate (and costly) continuation of the violence, rather than some shocking revelation of goblins' civility.

Besides, everyone knows that goblins are intelligent (or at least sentient) creatures. Their ability to hire mercenaries shouldn't come as such a shock.

by that logic the adventurers should never have been able to attack the goblins in the first place if they want anywhere near a good alignment. besides, civil and justified aren't the same thing, the definition of civil has more to do with organization than with whether the group is particularly nice or likable.

and yes goblins are sentient and can easily be intelligent, their ability to hire mercenaries however IS a shock in settings where their preferred tactic is to get a bunch of goblins together then go attack the nearest thing till they have a lot of food and weapons so they can attack something bigger (such as pathfinder where they are often relegated to the role of minor menaces to a town).

Honest Tiefling
2013-11-22, 07:15 PM
Your party seems REALLY paranoid. Wouldn't that make their behavior stand out? If they never split up, they are either high enough to get magical lodgings, or they all cram into one inn room. If they always have a guard, they either have someone on high alert in inns and taverns, or always sleep outside. Also sounds like they'll always be in armor as well, if not magically buffed to ding on detect magic radars.

Slipperychicken
2013-11-22, 07:48 PM
Your party seems REALLY paranoid sensible.

FTFY.

I wish my adventuring groups were smart enough not to split up.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-22, 08:03 PM
Your party seems REALLY paranoid.

paranoia is a survival trait gained by any PC who talks to their DM for more than a minute at a time. the DM can be the nicest person they know but if they let a plan for a "challenging" encounter slip you'll feel like they're going out of their way to kill you.

Honest Tiefling
2013-11-22, 08:05 PM
I stand by my point that if these guys won't even split up to go shopping in a city or to take a crap, they are probably going to stand out unless this happens to be in the Capital of Murderhoboia.

Slipperychicken
2013-11-22, 08:08 PM
take a crap

No one defecates in D&D. That's part of the reason why adventurers wear one set of clothes each and never change it unless there's a bonus involved.

catsora
2013-11-24, 07:27 PM
So I guess the best way for a group of adventurers to track another group of adventurers would be thinking as an adventuring party. They tend to be paranoid, so have them slowly go crazy and get them to be on the run from percieved threats into a real one.
For example, they might try to interrogate someone and get into trouble with the authorities and have to leave town. The other party makes use of some very innocuous spies like birds or other small wildlife controlled by a druid or ranger.
These little spies then allow the enemy party to anticipate the travels of your group and remain one step ahead of them.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-11-24, 11:38 PM
Stick an agreement/bounty in a note on one of their corpses, which mentions that a goblin tribe hired them. If your PCs kill them and loot the bodies, then they'll find the note and hopefully read it*. Even though goblins don't write (at least by PF lore anyway), then maybe it's a reminder for the mercenary. Or a journal entry.


*If your players decide not to read the obviously plot-important note they found on their assassins' bodies (I find it absolutely shocking that some players do things like that), then go "durr hurr why'd deze boyz attak us, we're da heroz lawl", you can feel comfortable knowing that their stupidity knows no bounds.
Ooooh, that's clever! I endorse that 100%. May have to steal that idea...

No one defecates in D&D. That's part of the reason why adventurers wear one set of clothes each and never change it unless there's a bonus involved.
In a word: Prestidigitation.

TheOOB
2013-11-25, 05:05 AM
First of all, the hunting party is unlikely to be adventurers. Adventurers usually don't take wetwork jobs, and they know better than to hunt down others who follow the most dangerous profession in the world, that tends to lead to wealth and great magical power. Assassins make far more sense.

Attack them where it hurts. Going against a full party of adventurers is suicide. Go after their friends, their allies, their partners, anyone who deals business with them. Sow distrust among them. Anything to get them separated. Alternatively sneak posions or curses onto them. Convincing a merchant to sell them a cursed sword works wonders.

Slipperychicken
2013-11-25, 09:04 AM
Ooooh, that's clever! I endorse that 100%. May have to steal that idea...


I mean, it's not my idea originally. A whole bunch of rpgs use it routinely (skyrim, oblivion, and fallout come to mind as examples). Any situation where you can count on the PCs looting corpses and not being complete tools OOC.

Alejandro
2013-11-25, 10:36 AM
So, after being raided by adventurers, goblin tribe figured out, hiring other adventurers to kill the first party would be the best deal.

Primary party is operating in mountainous area, devastating the goblin tribes.

My question is, what would be a good way for "adventurer hunters" to approach this beyond following a trail of destruction and eventually sneak up on enemy party? How would "hunters" maximize their advantage?

thanks

It depends on what edition we are talking about, different resources are more or less available.

Ideally, the goblins place some nice treasure in some forgotten cave or dungeon in the mountains. They give their mercenary group the location. This group goes and befriends the PCs (after doing some legwork to find out the best way to approach them, their personal interests, and such) and hires them as bodyguards to escort them to said cave. They need bodyguards, of course, because of all the goblins, and the PCs already have a reputation for smashing goblins.

The PCs escort them to the treasure (if the goblin powers that be want to get rid of some goblins they don't like, they can send them to attack the group, with their mercenaries knowing about and agreeing to the risk) and the mission is a success, they return safely. Absolutely no shenanigans are pulled, no cursed items in the treasure, the mercenaries follow their agreement precisely, and so on. This helps set up trust between the two groups.

Then, the mercenaries inform the PCs that they have learned of a much bigger haul tucked away up there in the mountains, and since the PCs gave such a good account of themselves, they want to hire them a second time. Again, they are friendly and cooperative, and head into the wilds, preferably towards something really dangerous. They wait until the PCs have done their job as guardians, using up some of their resources, let them start to rest, and then quietly eliminate or at least remove their watchperson. This is fairly easy to do with the right spells and sudden action from multiple directions.

Once that's done, they incapacitate the other PCs as they rest, not killing them if that can be helped, although it would be a good idea to cut off their hands, feet, eyes, and tongues (bring healing magic along to help keep them alive afterward.) Then bring the crippled PCs back to the goblins to be eaten/kept as slaves/tortured/etc.

Mutazoia
2013-11-25, 09:07 PM
If the goal for the Merc's is to kill the PC's, I would have one (the Merc Wizard) pose as a collector of ancient artifacts and hire the PC's to retrieve some magic bauble (that may or may not actually exist) guarded by an ancient spirit from the depths of a nearby dungeon. The dungeon that is just taxing enough to whittle away the PC's strength until they get to the end...and find not a ghost with a bauble but an ancient red dragon wondering why these puny adventurers kicked in his front door. The merc's can follow and either jump the PC's right after they finish off the dragon (and are 3/4 dead) or leave quietly while the dragon is digesting lunch.


No one defecates in D&D. That's part of the reason why adventurers wear one set of clothes each and never change it unless there's a bonus involved.

What do you think bags of devouring were designed for? Porta-potties! (Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "bag of random crap.")