Whirling frenzy and haste

[Raezeman]

Don't know if this has been asked before (looked but didn't find), but:
Does the extra attack from whirling frenzy (UA rage variant) stack with the extra attack from haste? At first thought i would think yes, since sources of additional attacks that don't stack have it specifically stated in the explanation, and whirling frenzy doesn't. However, giving a 5th level barbarian 3 attacks (albeit all with -2 on attack) through the aid of a 5th level wizard seems a bit overpowered.

So what do you think? So asking both for official rules and possible reasons for houseruling.

[Eldariel]

They stack just fine. Whirling Frenzy is kinda Rapid Shot-esque, except for melee. And yes, it's really strong to the point of being potentially overpowering compared to other melee types, especially on low levels; 4d4+24 damage is actually fairly impressive for 1 round on level 1 and if charging, we're talking about +9 to hit on both too (this is Orc Barbarian 1 with 18 Strength pre-racials, Whirling Frenzy & Lion Totem; Frenzy up and you get a total of 26 ergo +8, to hit at +1 BAB, +8 Str, +2 Charge, -2 Frenzy and damage at Guisarme for 2d4+12 Str).

Such Barbarians do give up longetivity in lacking Con (less HP) and Will-save bonus (traditionally a rough save for Barbs and a brutal one to fail), but the gains to AC (effectively +4 comparatively since they lose the penalty and gain a bonus) and Reflex aren't entirely irrelevant. Also, these Barbies are quite the monsters at range since Whirling Frenzy doesn't stipulate melee attacks. Of course, higher up melee damage is easy to rack up in any number of ways but Whirling Frenzy comes online level 1, up to 3 times per day with Extra Rage, and it can last for up to 8-9 rounds with enough Con so it's easily an encounter each. So, it's really strong for low level games, still good higher up, and works just fine with Haste.

[Raezeman]

some info: the barbarian i am talking about only different from standard by the whirling frenzy, so no totem thingy. Only 1 level barbarian (rest fighter). He (well, she, the character is female) has 16 strength and usually attacks with full power attack with her two-handed great sword. At the moment (level 4) she is the main damage dealer of the group, but also the only one to hit negatives so far (-6 to be precise, and what a battle the was!).

[Fouredged Sword]

Haste has a clause that says "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects". You can read into that what you will. Most DM's I play with read that as haste stacking with almost nothing.

[Eldariel]

Well, that doesn't really change anything. She's gonna be really strong, and definitely able to rip up most level appropriate encounters, but without Lion Totem she needs full attacks to do that damage. She's gonna be even more screwed than normal with Haste if enemy moves out of melee since she's missing out on 2 attacks (3 next level) that way. A bug in the combat system if you will. Overall, I'd say it's okay for a primary melee damage dealer to do tonnes of damage.


Haste has a clause that says "This effect is not cumulative with similar effects". You can read into that what you will. Most DM's I play with read that as haste stacking with almost nothing.

There's precedent for Haste stacking with Rapid Shot & Flurry of Blows though, and Whirling Frenzy is quite similar to both (all of them give the option to either attack for full normally, or at -2 all attacks with an extra attack). As such, I think any argument about them not stacking is rather flimsy.

[Raezeman]

So maybe i should rephrase the question:
assuming the extra attacks DO stack, would you houserule against it, and why or why not?

[Eldariel]

So maybe i should rephrase the question:
assuming the extra attacks DO stack, would you houserule against it, and why or why not?

If Whirling Frenzy was allowed in the first place, I see no reason to remove the incentive for a caster to buff the melee with Haste. I think it's a matter of either not allowing Whirling Frenzy (based on it giving already the highest damage early game melee class a massive early damage spike) or allowing Whirling Frenzy ('cause melee should do a lot of damage and Whirling Frenzy helps to that end); I don't think using Haste as a balancing tool is a good call here since it's not a factor controlled by that character but rather other characters.

[Killer Angel]

So maybe i should rephrase the question:
assuming the extra attacks DO stack, would you houserule against it, and why or why not?

I wouldn't rule against it, and for one main reason: if I, as a DM, got some prolems with huge damage from meleers, i would veto things as Whirling Frenzy. If I'm OK with WF, then i'm OK with stacking haste.