Mission: Most min-maxiest Ultimate Magus. Mmm...

[Dalebert]

This is a character I made and my plans for him, but I'm open to suggestions. Also, curious if I broke the rules somewhere. Do you like this combo and how what would you do differently?

Currently Beguiler (2 lvls) and Focused Transmuter (3 lvls) to qualify for UM next level. Picked enchantment, illusion, and evocation as my opposed schools. Human. Replace familiar with Sudden Shift from PHII.

Feats:
1st: Able Learner (all skills cost 1 point, even cross-class)
1st: Spell-casting Prodigy, INT (bonus spells in both classes)
1st: FLAW: Non-combatant -2 melee (extra feat)
1st: Extend spell metamagic
3rd: Practiced Spellcaster--beguiler (plan to retrain at 13)
6th: Craft Wands for a level or two, then retrain to Fiery Burst

Possible future feats: Rapid Metamagic and Enlarge Spell

Possible expanded spell knowledge: Quick Potion--cast it extended with any leftover beguiler spell slots. Save spells for the next day. At lvl CL12, that's 24 hours duration.

Practiced spellcaster allows me to advance my wizard class faster so I'm only one spell level behind in it than I would be as a pure wizard (7th lvl spells at character lvl 15).

Beguilers have so many enchantment and illusion spells plus Advanced Learning to fill in some gaps so it compliments my wizard side loss, though with a little lag in spell levels. They even get Sending which is one of the few Evocation spells I would miss, though a level higher. Also, as my Advanced Learning, I can take Shadow Magic to create semi-real illusions of evocation magic. Not that I care about evocation much anyway, but would make him even more versatile which is my goal. Plus, he can pick which evocation spell on the fly. Continual Flame?

The extra transmutation spell slots are great for blowing on metamagics for beguiler spells. Able Learner means continuing to max-out the more expansive beguiler skills forever at 1 pnt, though with fewer points, but high INT helps. My max rank remains just as high as if I had stayed a beguiler. SC Prodigy means I will still get a general spell slot for many, many levels as long as put stat-ups in INT and invest in an INT boost item. Those affect spells per day, yes?. Fiery Burst is a nice at-will evocationy effect that can be powered by transmutation slots. Ironic since evocation is an opposed school (but see above).

Shooting mainly for versatility, utility, support rather than blasty kind of mage. Lagging behind one spell level as a wizard seems like a small price to pay for all of that.

[SaintNick]

I've always been a fan of the Wizard/Nar Demonbinder mix since it abuses the Ultimate Magus a bit more. You gain access to a nice set of spells earlier than you normally would and as you level UM, your caster level can start to really run away. Here is an example build:

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ultimate Magus 1/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus +9/Archmage 3

Feats:
Iron Will via Otyugh Hole, Human Bonus, or Flaw
1 Spell Focus (Conjuration)
1 Improved Initiative (Combat Wizard)
1 Immediate Magic: Abrupt Jaunt
3 A Metamagic Feat
5 Spontaneous Divination
6 Mindsight

Pick up Versatile Spellcaster and Residual Magic and you should be good to go.

[macdaddy]

Class Entry:
Why do Beguiler 2/ Wizard 3 instead of Beguiler 1/Wizard 4?

You will actually be TWO levels behind a standard wizard because of this instead of 1 level. That means 4th level spells at 9th level instead of 8th and so on. It does mean you will get 2nd level beguiler spells 1 level earlier (8th level i believe instead of 9th); but I hardly think that is worth it.

feat selection
I always thought spellcasting prodigy was a pointless, wasted feat. You can duplicate the same thing with a headband of intellect +2, which also does much more, so why take the feat? The cardinal rule for min/maxing is NEVER take a feat that can be duplicated by a magic item

Don't forget split ray as a future meta magic feat. Works great with necromancer and transmutation ray spells.

Sculpt spell is BRILLIANT and Empower spell is also a good choice.

advanced spell learning
Rules as FAQ'd, you cannot add ANY spells to your Beguiler list. However, most DM's will skip that ruling as it kind of hoses Beguiler.

If he allows it, consider adding Nerveskitter to your beguiler list. You won't be doing much with your 1st level Beguiler spell slots anyway, and this is one that will get used a lot.


check out this ultimate magus diary (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=338.0). It has some good insights

[gorfnab]

Here is an Ultimate Magus Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=431) (updated one here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4039)) that may provide you with some insight

One Ultimate Magus build I like is: Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF) 5/ Knight of the Weave 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Incantatrix 4.

[Trilby]

My two cents:
beguiler 1 / wizard 5/ UM 10 / X 4

human bonus feat: able learner, max fun with skill points
1: collegiate wizard (CArc, p. 181) - more spells known automatically. Spellbooks are a rarity in the campaign I'm in, YMMV.
3: practiced spell caster - beguiler
5: wizard bonus: either deceptive spell (cityscape, p. 60; fits thematically with a beguiler, and this baby has saved my hide at times), or extend spell (useful, but lesser mm wands of extend are cheap), or silent spell (le sneaky)
6: versatile spell caster (Races of the Dragon, p.101) - very useful for a UM.
The rest is open and you have even more options if you take a flaw.

You lose only 1 UM progression level to beguiler (choose wizard first time, next one goes to beguiler, choose wizard again after).
This build misses out on a 5-level PrC capstone, but if you go archmage you don't miss out on a lot. I'd go Incantatrix for more metamagic, or Initiate of the Seven Veils 4 (reactive warding twice a day).

Invest skill points in sleight of hand (alternate use for it in Races of Stone p. 133; allows you to hide spellcasting). This in combination with deceptive spell will make it difficult for enemies to know it's you casting, combine that with good bluff, and great roleplaying opportunities abound.

To my knowledge UM does not advance things like Cloaked Casting, Advanced Learning, or Surprise Casting; you'll need to find another way to add shadow evocation to your list.

Versatile spell caster allows you to sacrifice two spell slots to cast a known spell of one level higher. This gets very cheesy very fast, but handle it responsibly and all those low level beguiler slots become one-less-lower level wizard spells. Of your choosing. Or metamagic as per UM's abilities. I get a lot of versatility (the clue is in the name :smallcool:) from this feat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

An Illumian with the Krau sigil can go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10 and have 14/15 Wizard casting. Illumians are Humanoid (Human) and can take Able Learner. Krau also helps make up for your slightly delayed Wizard caster level, and note you can use this to make your caster level equal your character level, then apply Arcane Spell Power from UM afterward.

If you're opposed to using Illumian, a better build that loses two Wizard levels would be Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM with Master Spellthief. You can still put 10/10 UM toward Wizard, so at level 15 you'll have Wizard 13 casting and Beguiler 8 casting. Your caster level in each class will be 13 + 8 + 1 + 4 = 25 at level 15, due to Master Spellthief adding your spellcasting capability in each class to determine your caster level, plus Arcane Spell Power further increasing it. You don't even need to get Practiced Spellcaster.

[Vincent Dragon]

Human
Wizard 5
3 levels of +1 arcane casting PrC
Spellthief 1 (with Master Spellthief feat)
Knight of the Weave 1
Ultimate Magus 10

You got around caster level 45, have spells per day as Wizard 18 and as Knight of the Weave 8 (a spontaneously spell list of 0 level spells up to 6th level spells).

[Dalebert]

Adv Learning
Several people have said you don't get Adv Learning. It does seem like a separate class feature. However, the language for CL-only advancement in prestige classes and I think specifically under UM is that you advance only in terms of "spells known" and "spells per day" but no other class features. Adv L clearly seems to fall under spells known for a beguiler. How do you conclude otherwise?

Practiced Spellcaster
It's true that I could advance faster as a wizard for a while, but eventually PS caps out at your HD and one level lower than your current wizard level which forces you to go up a level as a beguiler anyway, putting you back at 2 levels behind eventually. That's how I calculated it anyway. Considering that, I got a little impatient for some 2nd level beguiler spells early on because they're so damned handy. I liked that spread a little better in terms of getting new spell levels. Otherwise it was a long dry spell early on of no new spell levels. Some of you seem to have found a work-around for this but it's unfamiliar material that I will have to look up. Several classes mentioned that I'm unfamiliar with.

Collegiate Wizard looks great! The world we're in is very low magic. We will never, ever just find a spellbook. We did finally find a guild and we can buy spells sometimes but he's a little stingy about that too. It's still early enough, I'm sure he'll let me switch feats.


I always thought spellcasting prodigy was a pointless, wasted feat. You can duplicate the same thing with a headband of intellect +2, which also does much more, so why take the feat?

Because the feat and the magic item stack which means even higher level bonus spells. Also, it is doubly effective because it boosts both classes. However, weighing it against Collegiate Wizard, at least in this low magic game, it doesn't look as appealing.

[Dalebert]

Because the feat and the magic item stack which means even higher level bonus spells. Also, it is doubly effective because it boosts both classes. However, weighing it against Collegiate Wizard, at least in this low magic game, it doesn't look as appealing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to agree with you though. Beguilers have butt-tons of spells already. My wizard is a focused transmuter so he also has a ton of spell slots. The main benefit of this is one more of my higher level spells a day (above what a +2 INT item gives), but is it worth the feats I'm giving up? How often is this character going to not have enough spells to cast? Very questionable.

[Trilby]

Advanced learning is a beguiler class feature (PH2: 'You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature (see below) as you increase in level). You take a level in UM, which states you advance spells known if applicable, spells per day, caster level, and nothing else. It does not advance another class' class features.
You could argue that it does progress on lvls 1, 4, and 7 because Word of God forgot to add the 'and nothing else' clause to that paragraph. Actually read to the end of the paragraph, it's there so this does't fly.
All this is academic, though, I'm not your DM, if you can get more spells known this way, more power to you.

[Phaederkiel]

if I may make an ass of myself:

I would not ban evocation in an UM. I did it, and it hurt.
Sure, there will be people saying that Direct Damage has no place outside of a mailman. Yet: very often there is a situation that a fireball can deal with in one shot.

just my two cents.

[Dalebert]

Trillby, I still don't see any new information to interpret the wording differently. It's very straight-fwd.

"you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained."

How is AL a benefit other than spells known? It falls under spells known for a beguiler, a benefit that is granted by UM.

Of course I agree with you about Cloaked Casting, Surprise Casting, BAB, skill points, and everything else a beguiler gets for advancing. Those are clearly class benefits other than spells known and spells per day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How is AL a benefit other than spells known? It falls under spells known for a beguiler, a benefit that is granted by UM.

The Beguiler class doesn't have the typical 'spells known' feature of spellcasting. UM states, "and spells known, if applicable" implying that not every class benefits from that portion. For example, Sorcerer spells known (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer) would be improved by UM, because it is named spells known. Advanced Learning is not named spells known, so it doesn't get improved by UM, despite the fact that it does grant you knowledge of additional spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It still seems like you choosing to interpret that verbiage in a very specific and not very intuitive manner that seems kind of arbitrary. Not sure why you're interpreting it like that. So this also means that on the wizard side, they don't get to learn two new spells when they gain a level. They have to find or buy all their new spells. That's much worse than not getting AL on the beguiler side, at least in the low-magic game that I'm in right now. We never find spell books and scrolls are extremely rare.

The difference is that a Wizard or Sorcerer has their spells known built into their spellcasting base feature, so it gets improve along with the spellcasting base feature. Advanced Learning is not built into a Beguiler's spellcasting, it's a separate class feature. A Beguiler's spells known is gained upon being able to cast a given spell level, and that's the only spells known that gets improved by any '+1 level of existing class' prestige class feature.

Furthermore, it is widely accepted on a primarily Beguiler build to dip a single level of a +1 spellcasting prestige class after the 5th level, so that the subsequent Advanced Learning class features are delayed one level and grant spells of a higher level. If a +1 spellcasting prestige class also improved Advanced Learning, this would not be possible.

[Dalebert]

I completely respect thoughts along the lines of "As a DM, I would rule that UM doesn't include Adv L" because you just feel it's too much. I guess I'm just curious if there is errata somewhere that has actually clarified this beyond just an oddly specific interpretation of the verbiage which seems counter-intuitive to me personally.

It raises another question for me. Does this interpretation also conclude for a wizard side that you do not automatically learn two new spells at each level to add to your spellbook? Those freebies are a class feature of wizards who do not have a clearly-named "spells known" chart or feature.

EDIT: Wow, you responded really quickly. I deleted it so I could try to be clearer but you had already responded to it.

[Dalebert]

The difference is that a Wizard or Sorcerer has their spells known built into their spellcasting base feature, so it gets improve along with the spellcasting base feature. Advanced Learning is not built into a Beguiler's spellcasting, it's a separate class feature. A Beguiler's spells known is gained upon being able to cast a given spell level, and that's the only spells known that gets improved by any '+1 level of existing class' prestige class feature.

Again, if you told me this as my DM, I'd say "DM is always right. The end." What I'm trying to get from you is where all of this is actually defined. For instance, where does it say that the 2 spells at each level is given as part of "+1 lvl of existing class"? The only thing I have ever seen is that it only advances spells known and spells per day. Two people in this thread have come to this same conclusion so I'm inclined to think this is in fact explained somewhere. I'd just like to see it. Otherwise it just feels like an arbitrary declaration.


Furthermore, it is widely accepted on a primarily Beguiler build to dip a single level of a +1 spellcasting prestige class after the 5th level, so that the subsequent Advanced Learning class features are delayed one level and grant spells of a higher level. If a +1 spellcasting prestige class also improved Advanced Learning, this would not be possible.

Yes, that would be my ruling as a DM because I currently still interpret Adv L as "spells known" by beguilers.

[Trilby]

I guess it comes down to your definition of spells known--always a murky subject. You consider advanced learning part of spells known, just like a wizard's spellbook. I don't. The reason I don't agree, is that adding to a wizard's spellbook is his normal way of adding spells to his spells known list. For a beguiler the equivalent is automatically knowing all the spells on his list for that spell level. As an additional class feature, he gets advanced learning.
But as I said, academic. I can see your point, the wording is very vague. But it explicitly calls out that advanced learning is a different class feature, hence my disagreement. I know of no rulings on the issue, but I'm no rulings expert.
Kind of interested in this, if you're right, I get to add a spell to my spammable list, which is useful. Gotta love having (even) more options.

[Ansem]

Class Entry:
Why do Beguiler 2/ Wizard 3 instead of Beguiler 1/Wizard 4?

You will actually be TWO levels behind a standard wizard because of this instead of 1 level. That means 4th level spells at 9th level instead of 8th and so on. It does mean you will get 2nd level beguiler spells 1 level earlier (8th level i believe instead of 9th); but I hardly think that is worth it.

It doesn't matter which combination, it becomes 4/3 in both cases.
As with 2/3 with the first +1 to lowest it becomes 3/3 making them equal and therefor your own choice which the next +1 goes to.
Only way this is abused is with Wizard/Sorcerer and a feat to spontaneously cast or prepare a spell and go Main caster 5/UM/Add secondary caster/continue UM

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It doesn't matter which combination, it becomes 4/3 in both cases.
As with 2/3 with the first +1 to lowest it becomes 3/3 making them equal and therefor your own choice which the next +1 goes to.
Only way this is abused is with Wizard/Sorcerer and a feat to spontaneously cast or prepare a spell and go Main caster 5/UM/Add secondary caster/continue UM

Actually no, it counts which one has the lower caster level. With Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler, your Wizard caster level will be behind most/all of the time.

Starting out Beguiler 2/ Wizard 3 you can put 10/10 UM toward Wizard, and you get 2nd level Beguiler spells at 6th level. Starting out Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4 you can put UM 1 and 4 toward Wizard, but UM 7 has to go toward Beguiler. So by level 10 you're still two Wizard levels behind, but in this case you don't get 2nd level Beguiler spells until 8th level. A second Beguiler level over a fourth Wizard level also gives you class features and more base skill points, though starting Wizard 4 you can take your fifth Wizard level after UM for one of the ACFs in CC. But there's really no drawback using one over the other, 1/4/UM and 2/3/UM are pretty much equal.

If you make the character an Illumian with the Krau sigil it's another story, as you can go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4 and apply 10/10 UM toward Wizard. Illumians are also Humanoid (Human) so you can still get Able Learner on that build.

[Dalebert]

The reason I don't agree, is that adding to a wizard's spellbook is his normal way of adding spells to his spells known list.

Exactly--normal for a wizard. What makes Adv L "abnormal" or "additional" for a beguiler? One could also arbitrarily decide that going out and finding spells and learning them as described for a wizard is their "normal" way they learn spells and the two per level is an "additional class feature". The ability is actually just like a beguilers; just better.


But it explicitly calls out that advanced learning is a different class feature...

Different from what? Where does it explicitly call this out? When you say "normal" feature vs. "additional" feature, these seem to be words you've arbitrarily defined for yourself. I don't see those words here:


Spellcasting: At each level except 1st, 4th, and 7th, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in both a prepared arcane casting class and a spontaneous arcane casting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of those classes would have gained.

And if they're clarified elsewhere, reference where "spells known" is explicitly certain things and not others as you have interpreted it? Like...
"Just the spell list if a class has a defined spell list"
and
"Just spells from the chart if the class has a spells known chart"
and
"Both the spells learned from found spellbooks and scrolls as well as spells they can select from advancing in level but only for a wizard and not for other classes that get to automatically learn new spells for advancing"

Even judging the intent, the conclusion is the same--that prestige classes like this are intended to advance you in just the spellcasting ability of the original class without other class features, and the verbiage explicitly defines the three things that includes:
1) what spells they know how to cast
2) how many spells per day and
3) caster level.

By that very clear verbiage, many things are excluded such as cloaked casting because it doesn't fall under those three explicitly named class features. Adv L explicitly does.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Advanced Learning isn't spells known, it's spells added to your class spell list, which are then automatically known due to how he automatically learns any spells on his class list that he could cast. They're added to his class spell list, and UM does not advance any such feature.

[Dalebert]

Advanced Learning isn't spells known, it's spells added to your class spell list, which are then automatically known due to how he automatically learns any spells on his class list that he could cast. They're added to his class spell list, and UM does not advance any such feature.

You keep stating that as a declaration without making a case for it based on the rules. And a wizard gets to add two new spells to his spellbook each level which he then knows. Same thing.

From beguilers:

Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list spells known through your advanced learning class feature (see below) as you increase in level.

Honestly, I think what's throwing you, and not just you, is that they gave it a name (Adv L) and added it to a chart of class features which I understand can make it seem somehow separate or "additional", whatever that means, compared to the wizard class feature but that's only because it's too complicated to describe in a couple of sentences because it's so much more limited. They don't get it every level. They get it nine five times at specific levels. So they needed to give it a name so they could put it in a chart for clarity. That doesn't make it any more "additional" than the wizard ability. It just means it needed to be charted.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You keep stating that as a declaration without making a case for it based on the rules. And a wizard gets to add two new spells to his spellbook each level which he then knows. Same thing.

Not the same thing. Wizards only get to add spells known from the Wizard spell list. The Beguiler's equivalent is when he gains access to a new spell level, he automatically learns every spell on his class list of that level. This is his spells known, and this is what UM advances.

When a Wizard adds spells to his class spell list, for example via the feat Arcane Disciple, he still must learn those spells. A Beguiler automatically learns all the spells on his class spell list, so there's no additional effort to learn them. UM specifically states, "spells known, if applicable" indicating that some classes won't benefit from that. A Beguiler's spells known are automatic, rather than X per level, so in this case it's not applicable. Advanced Learning does the same thing as Arcane Disciple, it adds them to his class spell list, but it just happens to be on a class that automatically gets to learn any spell added to his class spell list. It indirectly grants a spell known, and the UM progression is not applicable.

Twisting the words hard enough to wring new meaning out of them does not make your interpretation correct.

[Trilby]

Honestly, I think what's throwing you, and not just you, is that they gave it a name (Adv L) and added it to a chart of class features which I understand can make it seem somehow separate or "additional", whatever that means, compared to the wizard class feature but that's only because it's too complicated to describe in a couple of sentences because it's so much more limited.


They don't get it every level. They get it nine five times at specific levels.
Much like the UM progression class feature is described in two paragraphs, one of which is an exact example of what you say is too complicated? Granted, it's not the prettiest text (being the origin of this discussion :smallwink:), but it's there, and it's not the confusing part of the text.

Also, it's a sentence before the one you quoted that defines spells known for a beguiler explicitly:

When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list.

It is the sentence after the one you quoted that makes me see advanced learning as a additional--and thus different--class feature:


You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature (see below) as you increase in level.
Keyword being also, as in, in addition to. And it explicitly mentions advanced learning as a class feature.

Again, academic discussion as far as I'm concerned. Your game, your rules
You already get spells transferred by a UM class feature, so what's 2 more (3rd and 7th 'beguiler' level only, so not game breaking in my opinion)?

I just don't see how I'm wrong?

EDIT: You asked about the minmaxiest build, and that is by far the nar demonbinder build mentioned before. Also, spellthief shenanigans with the master spellthief feat give you an insane caster level.

[Dalebert]

Keyword being also, as in, in addition to. And it explicitly mentions advanced learning as a class feature.

Yes, of course it's a class feature. Also under wizards, it has "Class Features" in bold, colored lettering followed by "All of the following are class features of the wizard." and the 2nd thing in the list is "Spells:" followed by a detailed description of how they can learn them and the 2 per level and so forth.

I'm also pointing to very explicit language in UM that it's one of exactly three class features that it actually grants (spells per day, spells known, and caster level). "Additional" is language that I've only seen in this thread; not in the books anywhere.

Biffoniacus_Furiou appears to be attaching a very elaborate personal interpretation of just two words: "if applicable", an interpretation that I also don't see anywhere in the books. A more straight-fwd interpretation is that there are a number of classes that add to spells known at some levels but not all including bards, rangers, paladins, and beguilers. From lvl 1 to 2, beguilers don't learn any new spells. From 3 to 4, they do. And from 2 to 3, they do (from Adv L). So it's applicable for those levels.


Again, academic discussion as far as I'm concerned. Your game, your rules. You already get spells transferred by a UM class feature, so what's 2 more (3rd and 7th 'beguiler' level only, so not game breaking in my opinion)?

I agree. It just coincidentally so happens that my interpretation is beneficial to my character and Biffoniacus' is beneficial to his. FWIW, I have a player who is likely going to make a beguiler/wizard/UM in my game and I of course intend to use the same interpretation in my game.

[Dalebert]

Keyword being also, as in, in addition to. And it explicitly mentions advanced learning as a class feature.

From the wizard "spellbook:" section (which is in the list of Class Features for wizards)


At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own

So I had it backward. Per this bizarre interpretation because of the word "also", UMs do get the 2 spells per level on the wizard side but they can't learn any more spells from scrolls or found spellbooks because that's "additional" for wizards.

[Trilby]

I think (strictly interpreting) RAW is kinda backwards :smallwink:. I guess I'm never going to convincingly prove one point or the other. Which is why we have DMs in the world. :smallbiggrin:

That said, your argument does not hold. The wizard's ability mentioned is not dependent on class advancement. As a wiz5/beg1/um10, I'd have as much right to copy another's spellbook as I would as a wiz 16. Advanced learning is dependent on beguiler level, so (to me) this line of reasoning is comparing apples to oranges.

But like I said, by all means rule otherwise (or convince your dm to do so). So long as you're being consistent in universe, does it really matter?
And as your interpretation of the rules is (slightly) more powerful, go for it. :smallcool:

[Dalebert]

That said, your argument does not hold. The wizard's ability mentioned is not dependent on class advancement.

Okay, true. I do have to concede that. Still I was mostly trying to address the absurdity of excluding something as being "additional", an arbitrary term nowhere in the RAW that you seemed to use because Adv L is a class feature. Meanwhile the wizard section of PHB points out that the 2 spells per level is, in fact, a class feature and one that is based on level advancement as a wizard. At no point does UM specifically reference the 2 spells per level class feature of wizards. It simply falls under "spells known" so it's obviously included.

[Trilby]

At no point does UM specifically reference the 2 spells per level class feature of wizards. It simply falls under "spells known" so it's obviously included.

And it doesn't do so either for progressing spells known for a beguiler. UM progresses spells known, if applicable. Not what we're debating. I reread the entry for advanced learning.


Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd level, you can add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the enchantment or illusion school and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know. Once a spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.

(Emphasis mine)

We are debating whether UM progresses expansion of a spell list, because that is what advanced learning does.


When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list.

You say UM progresses advanced learning because of your interpretation of the sentence 'Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list' (A spell list and a 'spells known list' are not the same thing. For the particular purpose referenced above i.e. choosing which spells to cast, they are the same for a beguiler).
You then go on to replace 'spells known list' with 'spell list' in order to 'prove' that advanced learning should be grouped in with spells known and thus progressed.

However, you forget that, though beguilers use them in a similar way, spells known are rules-wise a different beast from a spell list. The sentence you quote is a clarification of the previous paragraph.

They are not the same thing: adding to a class' spell list is mechanically different to adding to a spells known list. Advanced learning adds to your beguiler class spell list, not to your spells known list. However, because a beguiler knows their entire spell list, the benefit provided by advanced learning essentially adds to their spells known list, precisely because it expands their class' spell list.
[/rules lawyer mode]

[Dalebert]

From a strictly rules-and-somantics-lawyering POV, I feel I have to concede your point. Beguilers are really weird--not exactly sorcerers and not quite wizards.

I do feel that for all practical purposes the spell list for a beguiler already includes illusion and enchantment spells from the wiz/sor list and they just get far fewer choices from their list than a sorcerer does. Based on how they're describing the Adv L process, what they're describing is a beguiler adding to their spells known in much the same way a wizard gets her two spells per level -- through study and research they learn it and then know the spell. I also feel the intent of UM and other prestige classes that advance spellcasting ability is to advance on those terms (spells they know, spells per day, and caster level). This seems more like a glitch than the intended meaning... but a legitimate glitch that you can argue to a DM or that a DM could use as reasoning to deny you five more spells.

I still think the language is ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way, because they made beguilers this weird amalgam of sorcerer and wizard.