3.5 You Die They Die

[unseenmage]

So Homunculus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/homunculus.htm) have this trait where if their "master" dies then so do they. (I always interpreted "master" to mean creator, as they're listed as "never sold".)

That got me thinking, what if one were to Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) (thanks Wharrrrrrgarbl) or Shapechange the BBEG into a Homunculus? Would the person who cast the spell be considered the BBEG-Homunculus creator?

If this works, what's the earliest level that it could be employed at? Could be funny to go about collecting BBEGs and their chief henchmen as Homunculus Pokemon. :smallsmile:

Edit: Are there other ways to link two creatures so that if one dies so does the other?

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Well, the range on Shapechange is personal, so no go there. Of the polymorphs, Baleful Polymorph only lets you turn stuff into animals, so that's out, too. Polymorph Any Object is only permanent if you can get 9+ on the duration factor, so if I were running it the only BBEGs threatened with permanent polymorphing into a homonculus would have to be primarily made of minerals, as well as at least two of the following:

Made mainly of earth or clay
Tiny in size
Already a construct
Int 10 or higher

The intelligence is basically a freebie, but unless you're up against a Warforged, I don't see it happening.

[Tysis]

Polymorph any Other doesn't do contructs, and shapechange is personal. Though you might be able to do it with a wish, or by just creating a new spell.

You could try Trap the soul, and put the gem into a homunculus that you crafted.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Well, wait. I don't see anywhere in the SRD description of Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) that it disallows polymorphing into constructs. What it does say is that you can't polymorph nonmagical objects into magic items, or vice versa, but if I were running the game, I would not define a living creature as a nonmagical object, and while homonculi have associated creation costs, I wouldn't classify them as magic items, either - they're creatures, with a creature type, hit dice, etc. Polymorphing one creature into another (even a creature of a different type) is not at all unreasonable.

[unseenmage]

Polymorph any Other doesn't do contructs, and shapechange is personal. Though you might be able to do it with a wish, or by just creating a new spell.

You could try Trap the soul, and put the gem into a homunculus that you crafted.

Energy Transformation Field (SC) is vaguely worded enough that one of it's interpretations allows you to hit other creatures with Personal Range spells.


Well, wait. I don't see anywhere in the SRD description of Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) that it disallows polymorphing into constructs. What it does say is that you can't polymorph nonmagical objects into magic items, or vice versa, but if I were running the game, I would not define a living creature as a nonmagical object, and while homonculi have associated creation costs, I wouldn't classify them as magic items, either - they're creatures, with a creature type, hit dice, etc. Polymorphing one creature into another (even a creature of a different type) is not at all unreasonable.

'Constructs as Magic Items' is a rules interpretation. While not a stretch for Golems, whose description has them as a kind of Magic item, for other Constructs it is only implied. In games where you can modify your Golem using the MIC Magic Item rules they are also immune to Polymorph Any Object.

However, by RAW/RAI Homunculus aren't Magic Items.

[Tysis]

Well, wait. I don't see anywhere in the SRD description of Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) that it disallows polymorphing into constructs. What it does say is that you can't polymorph nonmagical objects into magic items, or vice versa, but if I were running the game, I would not define a living creature as a nonmagical object, and while homonculi have associated creation costs, I wouldn't classify them as magic items, either - they're creatures, with a creature type, hit dice, etc. Polymorphing one creature into another (even a creature of a different type) is not at all unreasonable.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong then but PaO says it functions as polymorph and for polymorph to turn something into a construct, they must already be a construct.


The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Right, I don't see why Polymorph Any Object couldn't be used to turn a creature into a homonculus; I was disputing the assertion that PAO can't be used to turn stuff into constructs.

That said, if you want permanent polymorphing (as you mentioned re: catching 'em all in the first post), I don't see a way to do it to anything that wasn't, at minimum, mostly made of minerals to begin with. Permanent Shapechange isn't really an option.

[unseenmage]

Right, I don't see why Polymorph Any Object couldn't be used to turn a creature into a homonculus; I was disputing the assertion that PAO can't be used to turn stuff into constructs.

That said, if you want permanent polymorphing (as you mentioned re: catching 'em all in the first post), I don't see a way to do it to anything that wasn't, at minimum, mostly made of minerals to begin with. Permanent Shapechange isn't really an option.

There's always hitting them with the Mineralize Warrior (Un59) spell first, that makes them an Earth type creature even.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong then but PaO says it functions as polymorph and for polymorph to turn something into a construct, they must already be a construct.

Ah, this posted at the same time as my previous post. So, my reading is that, just as polymorph is as Alter Self except that it allows for changing into a much wider variety of creature types, so too does Polymorph Any Object expand the list of allowable types. If you look at the wording, it goes:

Alter Self:

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, blah blah blah

Polymorph:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: blah blah blah

Polymorph Any Object:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another, blah blah blah

So, since we're now including things which don't even have creature types, I think that the logical expansion is that it's not an issue for PAO to switch to creature types including constructs.

[unseenmage]

Ah, this posted at the same time as my previous post. So, my reading is that, just as polymorph is as Alter Self except that it allows for changing into a much wider variety of creature types, so too does Polymorph Any Object expand the list of allowable types. If you look at the wording, it goes:

Alter Self:


Polymorph:


Polymorph Any Object:


So, since we're now including things which don't even have creature types, I think that the logical expansion is that it's not an issue for PAO to switch to creature types including constructs.

Makes sense to me, thanks for doing the analysis. OP edited to reflect and thanks given. :smallsmile:

I wonder if POA can be Dispel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)-ed?

For Pokemon-ing Smoky Confinement (CMa117) is likely the better option but my primary goal is still to see how early one can start chaining BBEGs and friends to one's own wellbeing and lifeforce.
As POA is an 8th level spell I suspect "early" might be the wrong term though. :smallfrown:

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Any spell with a permanent duration is perpetually in effect and can be dispelled at any time, so a permanent PAO can be dispelled. PAO really doesn't seem like a great choice for enslaving people, frankly. :\

[unseenmage]

Any spell with a permanent duration is perpetually in effect and can be dispelled at any time, so a permanent PAO can be dispelled. PAO really doesn't seem like a great choice for enslaving people, frankly. :\

An excellent point.

But then again, the premise of the excercise is that death will somehow stop the bad guy, which in D&D is rarely the case.

So my plan falls apart at two points, the revolving door afterlife isn't much of a threat and a simple Dispel Magic undoes the lifeforce linkage.

Hmmmm...

[Tysis]

Ah, this posted at the same time as my previous post. So, my reading is that, just as polymorph is as Alter Self except that it allows for changing into a much wider variety of creature types, so too does Polymorph Any Object expand the list of allowable types. If you look at the wording, it goes:


So, since we're now including things which don't even have creature types, I think that the logical expansion is that it's not an issue for PAO to switch to creature types including constructs.

Ah, see I thought it meant as polymorph but now you can target any creature or object, willing or not.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Ah, see I thought it meant as polymorph but now you can target any creature or object, willing or not.
Your reading makes sense, too, but the "willing" bit does get addressed earlier, in Baleful Polymorph.