Invisible Objects, What's the Point?

[unseenmage]

Inspired by this question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16475779&postcount=2070) in the RAW Q&A thread I got to wondering about the RAW/RAI of Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm) affecting objects.

I know Gaze Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) pass through Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) and similar effects because they are invisible. I suspect that Gaze Attacks would also pass through Invisible objects as well. Would this have any effect on Ray spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)?

Making a very small object Invisible could aid in Sleight of Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm) checks, but as there's no listed bonus it would default to DM decision, probably a +1 or +2.

Glyphs, Seals, and stuff like Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) could be triggered through an Invisible object. Though the object might shield you from the effects because the Explosive Runes would have to damage it first.


Edit: And we might have a winner here folks,

On one build I have, I use Sequester to turn all of my gear invisible. I also used the Ghost Form spell (essentially Permanencied due to a repeating Temporal Reiteration trap on my armor) and a monk level with a ghost touch necklace of natural weapons.

Now all of my equipment is incorporeal and invisible, even to True Seeing. None of it can be targeted (including by Greater/Dispel Magic) or stolen or sundered, and nobody will suspect I'm even wearing anything to hit me with various Dispel spells. I never have to take any of my magic items off, either, no matter what I'm doing. I can run around in mundane clothes or even naked, and nobody will be the wiser.

[Kelb_Panthera]

One obvious use is turning a container invisible so as to hide its contents. This would, of course, require a fresh casting each time you added an item to the container. Still, it's a useful way to hide documents or royal seals and such.

[Red Fel]

Actually, there's a very smart tactical use for invisible objects - thwarting See Invisibility.

Consider it for a moment. If you are invisible, someone with See Invisibility has you dead to rights. They can punch you, blast you, do as they like.

If you are surrounded by invisible objects, that advantage can be turned against them. You can still hide behind these objects, blocking line of sight. Ironically, their ability do see the invisible gives you a host of invisible objects behind which to hide.

Another way is to blind these targets. Suppose, for example, you had a spell which imbued an object with light so bright that it requires a save-or-be-blinded roll. Put it on a small object, something you could place on the wall, floor, or ceiling undetected. Make the object invisible, and the light will be as well. (Maybe. Probably needs a ruling.) If someone comes by and casts See Invisibility or True Seeing in your hallway? Bam, blinded by the light.

[Story]

Invisibility can also be permanancied on objects.




If you are surrounded by invisible objects, that advantage can be turned against them. You can still hide behind these objects, blocking line of sight. Ironically, their ability do see the invisible gives you a host of invisible objects behind which to hide.

Well the objects are translucent, so it'd require DM adjucation, but it might work.



Another way is to blind these targets. Suppose, for example, you had a spell which imbued an object with light so bright that it requires a save-or-be-blinded roll. Put it on a small object, something you could place on the wall, floor, or ceiling undetected. Make the object invisible, and the light will be as well. (Maybe. Probably needs a ruling.) If someone comes by and casts See Invisibility or True Seeing in your hallway? Bam, blinded by the light.

This one doesn't work. The light is explicitly still visible.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Another way is to blind these targets. Suppose, for example, you had a spell which imbued an object with light so bright that it requires a save-or-be-blinded roll. Put it on a small object, something you could place on the wall, floor, or ceiling undetected. Make the object invisible, and the light will be as well. (Maybe. Probably needs a ruling.) If someone comes by and casts See Invisibility or True Seeing in your hallway? Bam, blinded by the light.

This explicitly won't work this way. An invisible light source still sheds the same amount of light, per the spell description. They used a torch as the example.

[ddude987]

There is always the invisible fog cloud trick... cast an invisible fog cloud around yourself to screw with the people with see invisibility.

[Rubik]

On one build I have, I use Sequester to turn all of my gear invisible. I also used the Ghost Form spell (essentially Permanencied due to a repeating Temporal Reiteration trap on my armor) and a monk level with a ghost touch necklace of natural weapons.

Now all of my equipment is incorporeal and invisible, even to True Seeing. None of it can be targeted (including by Greater/Dispel Magic) or stolen or sundered, and nobody will suspect I'm even wearing anything to hit me with various Dispel spells. I never have to take any of my magic items off, either, no matter what I'm doing. I can run around in mundane clothes or even naked, and nobody will be the wiser.

[Legendxp]

I am exceedingly grateful that you made a thread for this. I hadn't realized that wanting a RAI answer was outside the scope of the thread. I made a mistake and should have read up on the forum rules more thoroughly.

Back on topic, could you make fake pitfalls with this spell? I always assumed you had to only choose a singular object and not an area. Also, if more than one spellcaster was working in conjunction with one another could they affect a larger object than each one, by themselves, could manage?

EDIT: That explosive runes thing is pretty funny. Stick a whole bunch of explosive runes on the back of some post-it-notes (or the d&d equivalent) and put those on an adamantine tower shield. Now walk up to somebody and cast invisibility on it, thus reading the notes.

[unseenmage]

I am exceedingly grateful that you made a thread for this. I hadn't realized that wanting a RAI answer was outside the scope of the thread. I made a mistake and should have read up on the forum rules more thoroughly.

Back on topic, could you make fake pitfalls with this spell? I always assumed you had to only choose a singular object and not an area. Also, if more than one spellcaster was working in conjunction with one another could they affect a larger object than each one, by themselves, could manage?

EDIT: That explosive runes thing is pretty funny. Stick a whole bunch of explosive runes on the back of some post-it-notes (or the d&d equivalent) and put those on an adamantine tower shield. Now walk up to somebody and cast invisibility on it, thus reading the notes.

I'm uncertain what the RAW is for invisible-ing hunks of ground. Some DMs rule the ground as an object in 10' sections like wall sections or ship sections, other DMs rule the ground as part of the colossal object that is the planet.
Edit: Even fewer DMs will rule that individual grains of sand and dirt are seperate objects in and of themselves. But that's always seemed silly on the face of it to me, but that's just my opinion.

Multiple casters means multiple castings which could affect more objects that way. In the case of ground this could be more 10' sections, depending on DM.

[Epsilon Rose]

See those windows over there? They're foot thick adamantine blocks with a centimeter of glass on either side for appearances. I can't wait until some adventurer comes crashing through one.


Or, in other words, it can be used to give you nice windows without sacrificing structural integrity or defensive properties.

[Rubik]

Anyone with a ring of invisibility or a few spell slots to burn can use the Invisibility spell on chests and doors to see what's inside or on the other side. This is especially useful if you suspect that there's a major trap afoot.

Did the DM give you a puzzle with two chests, where one sets off a Circle of Death and the other hides an escape route from the flooding room you're in? Cast Invisibility on one and you'll immediately know which one to open without worry.

[erikun]

Would this have any effect on Ray spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm)?
Ray spells require Line of Effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect), which is blocked by a solid object. Even if the object is invisible, it only provides Line of Sight, not Line of Effect.


Now all of my equipment is incorporeal and invisible, even to True Seeing. None of it can be targeted (including by Greater/Dispel Magic) or stolen or sundered, and nobody will suspect I'm even wearing anything to hit me with various Dispel spells. I never have to take any of my magic items off, either, no matter what I'm doing. I can run around in mundane clothes or even naked, and nobody will be the wiser.
Why would anyone ever want to target an individual magic item you are holding with Dispel Magic, when they could simply target you with Dispel Magic and it has the same effect on every magic item you are wearing, regardless of if they know it is there or not? The best use for invisible equipment would be to prevent opponents from trying to grab/sunder it.

And I can think of a bunch of reasons to cast Dispel Magic on the incorporeal humanoid trying to punch me to death.

[unseenmage]

One obvious use is turning a container invisible so as to hide its contents. This would, of course, require a fresh casting each time you added an item to the container. Still, it's a useful way to hide documents or royal seals and such.

How does the above work with the below?
I know the description says that the targeted creature and all their gear is invisibled, but how does it interact with unattended objects and their contents?


Anyone with a ring of invisibility or a few spell slots to burn can use the Invisibility spell on chests and doors to see what's inside or on the other side. This is especially useful if you suspect that there's a major trap afoot.

Did the DM give you a puzzle with two chests, where one sets off a Circle of Death and the other hides an escape route from the flooding room you're in? Cast Invisibility on one and you'll immediately know which one to open without worry.

[Rubik]

Why would anyone ever want to target an individual magic item you are holding with Dispel Magic, when they could simply target you with Dispel Magic and it has the same effect on every magic item you are wearing, regardless of if they know it is there or not? The best use for invisible equipment would be to prevent opponents from trying to grab/sunder it.You cannot use Dispel Magic (or the Greater version) on an item a creature is wearing unless you target the item directly. D.M. targeted on a creature only dispels spell effects, not items. The only way to target all objects that a creature is wearing is by a Chain'd targeted Dispel Magic. Area Dispels don't affect magic items, either.


And I can think of a bunch of reasons to cast Dispel Magic on the incorporeal humanoid trying to punch me to death.How can you tell that he's incorporeal unless he passes through stuff? Ghost touch allows him to walk normally when he wants, and he can even touch other stuff, too.

And in this case, Dispelling wouldn't do much good, given that the build in question uses the StP erudite's learning mechanic on a society mind and has Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) going. No Dispel for you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How does the above work with the below?
I know the description says that the targeted creature and all their gear is invisibled, but how does it interact with unattended objects and their contents?

Upon closer review of the spell description, I was wrong in my previous post. Only a creature's carried objects become invisible when tucked away. If you cast a permanent invisibility followed by a permanent animate object it should work and with only a single casting of invisibility + permanency.

[unseenmage]

Upon closer review of the spell description, I was wrong in my previous post. Only a creature's carried objects become invisible when tucked away. If you cast a permanent invisibility followed by a permanent animate object it should work and with only a single casting of invisibility + permanency.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.

[Urpriest]

I know Gaze Attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) pass through Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) and similar effects because they are invisible.

Huh? How do you figure that? As far as I've read on the subject, Gaze Attacks require Line of Effect like everything else.

[unseenmage]

Huh? How do you figure that? As far as I've read on the subject, Gaze Attacks require Line of Effect like everything else.

It's in the description of Wall of Force. In the SRD even.

[Urpriest]

It's in the description of Wall of Force. In the SRD even.

Ah, oddly enough hadn't checked the spell itself...you'd think they'd also put the rule in a more general place if it was expected to apply generally, but I guess that's not the case here.

[Dalebert]

Anyone with a ring of invisibility or a few spell slots to burn can use the Invisibility spell on chests and doors to see what's inside or on the other side.

The ring only works on the wearer. It doesn't just let you cast invisibility on anyone or anything.

[Dalebert]

Huh? How do you figure that? As far as I've read on the subject, Gaze Attacks require Line of Effect like everything else.

So can you have an opaque visor and cast invisibility on your helmet so you can see but not be affected by gaze attacks?

[Rubik]

The ring only works on the wearer. It doesn't just let you cast invisibility on anyone or anything.It says you get the benefits of the Invisibility spell. One of the benefits of having the spell is casting it on others.

You could always cast it on a blindfold of true darkness. Gain blindsight and still see normally.

[edit] Oh, and you can give Invisibility to others using the ring no matter what if you spent +6,000 gp on a spellblade weapon.

[DarkEternal]

In one campaign I played, there was a pit. Some odd 15 feet wide. Nothing really fancy to jump over by any character not in full plate with a running jump. In the middle of the chasm, however were three vertical invisible bars protruding from the ceiling. So, someone takes a running start, jumps and splats into the bars before he slides down and into the chasm filled with all sorts of nastiness unless he manages a dexterity check or something of the sort. It is funny at the very least.

[Story]

It says you get the benefits of the Invisibility spell. One of the benefits of having the spell is casting it on others.

You could always cast it on a blindfold of true darkness. Gain blindsight and still see normally.

[edit] Oh, and you can give Invisibility to others using the ring no matter what if you spent +6,000 gp on a spellblade weapon.

Only by the most tortured reading of RAW, and even then, it'd never work in a real game. The more common meaning is that by "benefiting from invisibility, as the spell" it means that you effectively have it cast on you, not that you're suddenly able to cast it on others.


In one campaign I played, there was a pit. Some odd 15 feet wide. Nothing really fancy to jump over by any character not in full plate with a running jump. In the middle of the chasm, however were three vertical invisible bars protruding from the ceiling. So, someone takes a running start, jumps and splats into the bars before he slides down and into the chasm filled with all sorts of nastiness unless he manages a dexterity check or something of the sort. It is funny at the very least.

Ah, the Kaizo Mario. That'll teach them not to "waste" a Fly spell.

[Dalebert]

You could make some cool traps using invisible objects. Hammer some spikes through a plank of wood and block a door with it. Make it invisible. Cast a scary illusion on the other side of the room so people flee out the door...

[Rubik]

Only by the most tortured reading of RAW, and even then, it'd never work in a real game. The more common meaning is that by "benefiting from invisibility, as the spell" it means that you effectively have it cast on you, not that you're suddenly able to cast it on others.Even if that's so, a spellblade still allows you to redirect the spell to another target, explicitly, for another 6,000 gp.

[unseenmage]

You could make some cool traps using invisible objects. Hammer some spikes through a plank of wood and block a door with it. Make it invisible. Cast a scary illusion on the other side of the room so people flee out the door...

In that vein, Invisible razor Wire sounds right nasty.

[Telok]

One really nasty thing from back in AD&D was to have goblins in a tunnel fleeing from the adventurers. They ran under (goblins are short) an invisible greatsword mounted horizontally above thier heads. The fighter chasing them ran into the sword.

Suddenly the adventurers weren't so hot to chase the goblins at full speed so they escaped.

[Urpriest]

So can you have an opaque visor and cast invisibility on your helmet so you can see but not be affected by gaze attacks?

Provided that it worked that way (unseenmage pointed out that at least for Wall of Force it doesn't), you only need line of effect to the person, not the eyes. It's magic, it's just magic that's triggered by eye contact.

[Metahuman1]

There's a none optimization centered use.

You can pretend there not in play. You can pretend that your walking magic items shop/magic arsenal of a character is, in fact, at most using one or two key items, there own ability's, and that's it.