[3.5] Malconvoking

[macdaddy]

I am playing a Malconvoker and just hit 7th level.

Wizard 5 / Malconvoker 2
Rapid Summoning UA variant
Focused Specialist Conjurer (banning: Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy)

I've been wondering about feat selection:

So far,
1. Extend Spell
1 (Human) Meta Magic School Focus (Conj)
1. (Wizard) Scribe Scroll
3. Sculpt Spell
5. (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus Conjuration
6. Augment Summoning

This gives me a few free scultped spells (Grease, Glitterdust, cloud of bewilderment).

But I've been wondering if those 3 feats (Extend, MMSF(Conj), and Sculpt Spell) are really worth it or not. Realistically, there are not a lot of higher level conjuration spells worth sculpting, and doing that to the lower level spells kind of peters out in usefulness at higher levels. But I'm not sure what else is worth taking.... and I have no idea what to take starting at 9th level....

I was also wondering if the Summoning conjurer variant would be any good for me? Basically, I keep exactly what is above, while giving up scribe scroll and getting +2DC to the dispel difficulty of my summons.

I would appreciate any advice people can give me (and yes, I did read through the malconvoker handbook, but it didn't have too many feats to really recommend)

[Particle_Man]

How high level is your character likely to get in this campaign? What is your break point for Malconvoker (or are you going all the way)? Where do you want to go after Malconvoker is done?

[macdaddy]

Ah

I plan on using the phb2 rules for retraining later. I will end up as wizard 3, master specialist 10, malconvoker 5 (possibly 6), archmage 1 (or 2).

the campaign will probably end around level 12, but it's possible it could go further.

[macdaddy]

Any advice on feats?

I guess at 9th level the summon elemental reserve feat is useful.
At 12th, craft contingent spell.

for 15th and 18th, probably have to take a feat or two to qualify for Arch Mage or just skip it and take paragnostic apostle or something.

[ngilop]

I recommend the summon elemental reserve feat. Not for you main summons, of course, but with the earth elemental's earth glide ability, the ari elemental's whirlwind ability they make great spies and distractions.. end even the water elemtals drench ability has come in handy for me once.


I say skip the archmage stuff, its really not needed. If the campaign is only going up to 12 level. i would say don't retraint o ive yourself 10 levels of master specilaist. as that way how you gonna get the sweet 5th level of Malconvoker?

[macdaddy]

I am getting Malconvoker 5 at 10th level. PERIOD

If I retrained, I would do so for 11th level, so I could then be Wiz 3, MS 2, Malconvoker 5, MS 1.

The big question is, how far should I go on Malconvoker?
MC 6 - Planar binding made easier
MC 7 - summon +2 will saves, and +2DC to dispel
MC 8 - +2 HD limit on planar binding (see Baalor, if you have the ballz for it)
MC 9 - Safe summons.... I'm not sure I understand this one. If a planar bound creature breaks free, OR a summon is controlled by someone else, can you still dismiss the critter?

Wiz 5 with the summoning ACF means that at Wiz5/MC7, I would have +4 to the DC for dispelling my summons. Not too shabby.

Capping MC at 7th level would let me do Wiz 3/ MS 2 / MC7/ MS 8.

The thing is as a Focused Specialist Conjurer, (banning Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy), I don't have much in the way of debuff's to throw on Planar bound critters. So the higher ones will be harder to control.

PLUS, I believe my DM will interpret the wording of the planar binding spells to LIMIT the length of the spell to 1 day per caster level. In my opinion, this makes planar binding fairly useless. Summon and negotiate in a safe environment, travel to location, *poof* critter leaves.

[Ramza00]

Buy a metamagic rod of sculpt spell. A lesser rod (up to 3rd level spells) costs 3,000 gp on the open market. You can easily afford 1 at 7th level if you are doing normal wbl. Don't waste feats on sculpt spell even though that spell is awesome.

Same logic with extend spell, you are going to use extend spell with your lower level to mid level slots (your buffs) and not your highest level slots. Thus spending 3,000 gp to extend 1st to 3rd level spells 3 times a day is a bargain. Once you move to 4th to 6th level spells you will be casting level 6 to level 7 spells and thus level 11+. Use your highest level spells to end encounters, use your low to mid level to buff.

If Dragon is allowed there is a feat called Nexus Method in Dragon 319. Requires a class that prepares spells. You can spontaneously convert your spell slots into summon monster spells similar to how a druid does summon nature ally. There is one big but though you can only do this to spell slots that do not house a conjuration spell. So while the feat is awesome it is less awesome for a focused specialist, since most of your non conjuration spells are lower level spell slots and you only have 1 or 2 non conjuration spell slots of your highest level.

Other good feats (Reposting from treantmonk's handbook)
Fiendish Summoning Specialist (PH): Allows you to add one evil creature per level to your summon monster spells. It will require you to be of non-good alignment though (restricting you to the neutral alignments). (Planar Handbook) - (thanks to Roccu for this suggestion - very good!)

Improved Initiative (PHB): is nice to have in conjunction with Rapid Summoning. It gives your boys a better chance to hit the enemy flat footed.

Cloudy Conjuration (CM): Nice ability - summon the creature beside the opponent and cover your opponent in sickening smoke for free. Keep in mind that you just granted them concealment (though the right summons ignore that).

Summon Elemental (CM): Any summoner should take this Reserve feat as soon as it's available (CM). This grants a standard action Elemental Summoning. The Elemental will be Small, Medium or Large depending on the level of the summoning spell you use to power it - and will last 1 round/level per level of the spell used to power. See my "Fun with Summon Elemental" rant at the beginning of the Summon Monster section.

--------------

Finally consider taking spontaneous divination instead of your wizard 5 feat. You can only cast spontaneous wizard spells that you already have in your spellbook, but doing so is *expletive* awesome.

[macdaddy]

metamagic rods
Trust me, I'd LOVE to be able to buy a lesser metamagic rod of sculpt or extend. However, my GM is a low-magic realm kind of guy. Since craft rod requires a 9th level caster.... perhaps. We were reading it before that metamagic rods required a 17th level caster, but that's not true due to the DMG errata, so *maybe* it can be available. But I doubt it.

Wealth
At 7th level I have the following magic items: Cloak of Resistance +1(which I loaned to the Barbarian), wand of mirror image (22 charges).

Yup. That's it.

I have far less than my expected wealth by level, with around 11K GP in cash, plus those two items. I have gold, just nothing I can spend it on.

I am considering taking Craft Wondrous Item just so I can make a headband of intellect and a few other things. But the required downtime for making those items might be prohibitive. Plus he won't allow another spell caster to contribute a spell if I don't have it.

Spontaneous Summoning:
As you pointed out, not a big deal for a Focused Specialist. I will have 2-3 summon monster spells per spell level, then a BC spell, and using my remaining open non-conj slot on a utility spell (like fly, dimension door, rope trick, etc).

It kind of sucks that the only feat that truly works on summoning is Augment summoning. It would be cool if there was an improved augment summoning that did +6 to STR/CON, like the 10th level summoning ACF wizard feature. Maybe I can get the GM to "create" such a feat.

[Akal Saris]

I'd pick up the summon elemental feat at 9th level as others have said. Or craft wondrous/craft rod/craft wand if the campaign seems to be giving you an opportunity to take time off for crafting.

Quicken spell and improved initiative are always useful. If you were to retrain extend spell and shape spell, I'd suggest trading in for those 2 feats.

[ngilop]

how on earth you can think 1 day / level is useless on planar binding blows my mind.

idk about you but there is a lot I can do for 20+ days with a Pit fiend ( FYI they don't have any sense motive)

[Akal Saris]

From my own experience as a DM for a high level sorcerer, the various ways for outsiders to break free/avoid the summoning circle can make it a high-cost expenditure of time (both real and in-game) & spells. It's still worthwhile, especially once you have 6th level malconvoker, though.

[Particle_Man]

Wealth
At 7th level I have the following magic items: Cloak of Resistance +1(which I loaned to the Barbarian), wand of mirror image (22 charges).

Yup. That's it.

I have far less than my expected wealth by level, with around 11K GP in cash, plus those two items. I have gold, just nothing I can spend it on.

Hmmm . . . if the magic item spread is that low, this might make Vow of Poverty more attractive (since Malconvokers can cast evil conjuration/summoning spells without it being an evil act for them, presumably this would not hurt their exalted status).

On the other hand, if you have the gold (and if you ever get periods of downtime) you might consider taking crafting feats and make your own magic items. Suddenly you are not only equipped for your WBL, but you are also wayyyyy ahead of most NPC villains in the game, if I interpret your DM's setting correctly.

And isn't the wording on Planar Binding such that the fiends bound always have at least a 1 in 20 chance of breaking free and going after you? It might be risky to go further than level 5 as a Malconvoker. I mean, it might still be fun, and you can prepare for a "jailbreak" but it is still risky.

[Andezzar]

If I retrained, I would do so for 11th level, so I could then be Wiz 3, MS 2, Malconvoker 5, MS 1.Look at the rules for retraining again. If you cannot qualify for Master Specialist at wizard 3 you cannot retrain the fourth and fifth wizard level to that PrC. If you already qualified at wizard 3, why use retraining and not take the PrC in the first place?

[Andezzar]

And isn't the wording on Planar Binding such that the fiends bound always have at least a 1 in 20 chance of breaking free and going after you? It might be risky to go further than level 5 as a Malconvoker. I mean, it might still be fun, and you can prepare for a "jailbreak" but it is still risky.Where do you get that? Neither attribute checks nor caster level checks auto-succeed on a 20.

[macdaddy]

Look at the rules for retraining again. If you cannot qualify for Master Specialist at wizard 3 you cannot retrain the fourth and fifth wizard level to that PrC. If you already qualified at wizard 3, why use retraining and not take the PrC in the first place?

Why? So i can get the wizard 5 bonus, which is either a free feat or +2DC to dispel my summons. Either seems a LOT better than skill focus (spellcraft) at lower levels.

And the only real requirement for master specialist is SPF(Conj), which I need for Malconvoker, so it was taken at 1st level.

[macdaddy]

Hmmm . . . if the magic item spread is that low, this might make Vow of Poverty more attractive (since Malconvokers can cast evil conjuration/summoning spells without it being an evil act for them, presumably this would not hurt their exalted status).

On the other hand, if you have the gold (and if you ever get periods of downtime) you might consider taking crafting feats and make your own magic items. Suddenly you are not only equipped for your WBL, but you are also wayyyyy ahead of most NPC villains in the game, if I interpret your DM's setting correctly.

If only. Vow of Poverty (whole exalted book) is not allowed.

You'd think we would be equal or ahead of the bad guys, but no. There has been some "planar event" that is causing weird stuff to happen. Bad guys usually teleport out 1-4 rounds after they die.... with all their stuff. Sometimes we cannot get to them in time, sometimes we can and maybe get one thing. We seem to be collecting a lot of bows though... grrr. These guys come back alive usually, with little memory of what happened right before their death. Last encounter, after killing the drow cleric, one fighter went to help a barb that was being sandwiched while the other began ripping items off the dead cleric; and when we took down the drow fighter, we made sure we didn't kill him and stabilized him at -3.

On the bright side, last game we had 2 PC's die (both pretty spectacular) and both teleported out in a blue flash. So we hope they re-appear alive in town without any level loss from being resurrected. They will probably lose XP from the adventure though or whenever their memory stopped.

[Particle_Man]

Where do you get that? Neither attribute checks nor caster level checks auto-succeed on a 20.

"If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you" Under Planar Binding, Lesser.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htm

[Particle_Man]

On the bright side, last game we had 2 PC's die (both pretty spectacular) and both teleported out in a blue flash. So we hope they re-appear alive in town without any level loss from being resurrected. They will probably lose XP from the adventure though or whenever their memory stopped.

Sounds like your characters are in the Matrix. :smallwink:

Well, what about magic item crafting feats then? You have the gold and you can customize your items. Assuming the DM gives you the time to craft, of course.

[Andezzar]

"If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you" Under Planar Binding, Lesser.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBindingLesser.htmWith a positive charisma modifier, you cannot roll a 1, because 1 plus a positive integer is always greater than 1.
You could only roll a natural 1, which the rule does not call for.

Additionally this is consistent with the default rule about ability/skill checks and similar to to the fail by 5 or more rule of some skills.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe we interpret "roll" differently. If it said "get a 1" I would agree with you but it says "roll a 1" so I don't.

More relevantly, the OP should check what the OP's DM says on the matter.

[Andezzar]

I'd agree with you if the rules either spoke of a natural 1 or said something about the roll of the die coming up as a 1. The roll of a check is only ever compared to any number after all modifiers are added

To determine if your character succeeds at a task (such as attacking a monster or using a skill), you do this:
Roll a d20.
Add any relevant modifiers.
Compare the result to a target number.
If the result equals or exceeds the target number (set by the DM or given in the rules), your character succeeds. If the result is lower than the target number, you fail.

[Particle_Man]

Note that step one of what you quoted says "you roll a d20" and then step two says you "add any relevant modifiers", and note that the Planar Binding Spell doesn't say "if you get an ability check result of 1" it says "if you roll a 1".

"Modifiers
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll."

Seems to back up my interpretation.

To me it is clear that "to roll a 1" means rolling the actual die and getting a 1. You interpret it differently, but I am not convinced of your interpretation.

[Andezzar]

Not quite:

If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.As I already quoted on checks numbers are only compared after you add the modifiers. So cannot know if a roll on a check is a 1 before adding the modifiers. As such you can only ever roll a 1 on a check, if your modifiers are less than +1.

The number showing on a die is only relevant in specific exceptions and are referred to differently:
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit (see the Critical Hits sidebar, page 140).

Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, page 177). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

[Particle_Man]

In which case, by your interpretation, if someone's charisma modifier is just awful and they get a final charisma check result of 0, or -1, or -2, the bound creature does not break free, because the result is not a 1.

This seems counter-intuitive. By my interpretation, the worst possible roll on a d20, and only the worst possible roll on a d20, results in the creature breaking free. On your interpretation, there are cases (such as where the charisma modifier is -2) where the worst possible result does not result in the creature breaking free, but the third-worst possible result does.

Alternatively, you could interpret things your way and also treat 1 as a Target Number, but that leads to even more counter-intuitive results, namely that the creature almost always breaks free (and indeed will do so if the charisma modifier is +0 or +1 or indeed any non-negative number) because the charisma check result will almost always meet the target number (just as if the target number is a armour class, a roll result that is higher than the person's AC still hits the person - you don't need to hit exactly their AC, no more, no less). Indeed the only way to be save would be to have a charisma modifier of -20, but then you would almost never get the bound creature to agree to your bargains.

The spell does not say "if you get a 1 or less", after all. I think that supports my interpretation, as there is provision in the Diplomacy skill, for example, for explicitly stating "less than 1" "less than 5", etc. as a result of a skill roll.

My interpretation is, therefore: If (as the first part of the charisma check) you roll a 1, then (independently of the final result of the charisma check) the creature breaks free. This is consistent with the idea that a charisma check is done in steps, with the roll being the first step (and in this case, a relevant step).

I believe your interpretation is something like "If the charisma check results in a 1, after modifiers are added to the die roll, then the creature breaks free".

[Particle_Man]

For what it is worth, Pathfinder goes the "natural 1 and all Hell breaks loose" route on Planar Binding.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-binding

[Andezzar]

I never said that the rule was particularly intuitive, or that you should play it as written, just that the rules do not support your interpretation.

5% chance for disaster regardless of the check's result is pretty dysfunctional as well, about as bad as critical fumbles. At least you do not get more castings as you level up so the chance does not increase with level as it does if you used critical fumbles on attack rolls.


For what it is worth, Pathfinder goes the "natural 1 and all Hell breaks loose" route on Planar Binding.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-bindingNatural 1 =/= 1 on a check

[Particle_Man]

Whether dysfunctional or not, that is how Pathfinder decided to go with that spell. There is a 5% chance of failure on a charisma check vs. a bound creature.

I think that the rules in 3.5 support my interpretation and that Pathfinder is effectively clarifying a disputable point (since we are disputing it, I call it disputable) for their game.

Which brings me back to the OP, since I think that the OP should check with the OP's DM and see what the OP's DM's ruling is on this. Because, whether you call it a house rule or not, if the DM's ruling is similar to my interpretation, it provides a reason to think hard before risking the planar binding line of spells, which in turn might provide a reason to break from Malconvoker after taking 5 levels in it. Conversely, if the OP's DM rules as what I would call an inaccurate interpretation and what you would call the correct interpretation, then there is more reason to pursue Malconvoker for all 9 levels.

[Particle_Man]

Natural 1 =/= 1 on a check

Similarly, "roll a 1" =/= getting a 1 as a check result. :smallsmile: It is merely one step in making the check result.