How does Turn Undead work?

[Kaiseresc]

Been trying to decypher how it actually works.
It is really strange. I can't seem to understand. Do you really do damage? and then the undead flee?

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

So, when you try to turn undead, you roll for two things: the strongest undead you can turn, and how much undead badness you can turn.

To tell the strongest undead you can turn, roll a turning check and consult the table here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead). The check result tells you the maximum hit dice on any individual undead you are able to turn with this turning attempt. That means that if I have a 3rd level cleric who is trying to turn a 5th level vampire rogue, he needs a result of 16 or better on the turning check or the vampire will just laugh it off. This number is not always the creature's character levels, or whatever, the important number is the creature's hit dice - a mummy lord (www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm), for example, is a 10th level cleric, but has 18 hit dice - 8 from being a mummy, 10 from being a cleric.

After you know what the strongest undead you can turn is, you roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. Turning damage is not hit point damage, and the use of the word damage is unfortunate. Each point of turning damage you do lets you affect one more HD of undead - so if you roll 10 for your turning damage, you can turn up to 10 skeletons, or 5 skeletons and one 5th level vampire rogue (assuming your turning check result was good enough).

It's quite an odd mechanic, to be sure. Was that explanation understandable?

[Subaru Kujo]

Been trying to decypher how it actually works.
It is really strange. I can't seem to understand. Do you really do damage? and then the undead flee?

Whar got it pretty well down to numbers. But the actual result depends on whether you spontaneously cast Cure or Inflict spells. Cure spell converters turn undead, and destroy weaker ones, while Inflict casters rebuke undead (they cower instead of running all over hell), or command them (take direct control).

End result is about the same though. Make the check, and you have fleeing/dead/cowering/minion undead.

[Fax Celestis]

It is possibly the dumbest mechanic in all of 3.5.


roll a Charisma check (1d20+CHA)
look up information on the Turning table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turnOrRebukeUndead)
roll 2d6 + effective turning level + Charisma modifier
ask your DM for info in re: how many HD your opponents have (which, btw, is info you shouldn't know)
determine effect by picking targets to send fleeing in terror or destroy


So it uses a table lookup; two die rolls (one of which is nonstandard); AoE burst but targeted within that burst; restricted to specific kinds of creatures that you may or may not even ever see; also restricted according to a poorly scaling HD value (esp. since undead have the highest number of HD per CR out of any creature type in the game); and provides you, the player, with metagame info you shouldn't have, all because the designers decided that turning undead was a sacred cow mechanic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SacredCow) that needn't be changed.

Make your life easier and just use Pathfinder's Channel Energy ability instead.

[AlanBruce]

I must agree with the above post- it is needlessly complicated and does take time off combat to figure out how it works, whether hidden undead got affected (inadvertent metagaming) and it's just generally groan worthy when you want a fast flowing campaign, but because plot requires it, undead are present and the cleric will try to turn.

I haven't seen PF's version, but Complete Divine attempted a fix on turning, a variant rule. Turns the cleric into a holy fireball, but it's much easier to keep track of and is a lot less time consuming.

[Dalebert]

I think I like the alternate turning rules. You do 1d6 of damage per cleric level to all undead within 30 feet. I can't recall which book it was in. Negative clerics heal 1d6 but I'm wondering how they potentially gain control. If they lose that, then it sucks. It's always been a nice feature of the negative clerics that they can have some pet undead.

EDIT: Found it. Page 87 of Complete Divine.

Maybe ask your DM if he's okay with it. I think it's a vast improvement for positive-channeling clerics.

[AlanBruce]

I ran the variant turning rules in CD awhile back.

The dwarven cleric of Pelor wanted to know what happened when he used Greater Turning from the Sun Domain.

Since the variant simplifies a lot but fails to cover a bunch of essentials, I houseruled that Greater Turning does max damage per die.

Since there were no neutral or evil pc clerics who could rebuke/command undead, I never got around the issue of applying the variant to that aspect of turning.

I suppose it was meant to simplify it all by either damaging or healing the undead, nothing else.

[Kaiseresc]

thank you everyone.

as for the explanation, it confirms what I originally thought: it is one hell of a confusing mechanic. It only creates instability and giving away "free info" is kind of dumb.
but none the less I'm grateful for the explanation, I realized how I'm better off following the other advices: turn undead variation. I loved it. Thanks both of you, I'm going to let that be the turn undead rule instead of the frustrating version from PhB.

[Dalebert]

I would try to figure out a way that negative clerics can gain control over undead. Maybe if you roll healing that would have killed them if it were dmg and they're half your level or lower in HD. That seems fair but I haven't thought it through much.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

I would actually let any Rebuke Undead attempt which would deal enough damage to destroy them control them instead, as though they were affected by Dominate Person (as though cast by the cleric, maybe nix the telepathy), at the cleric's discretion. Require a turning attempt, rather than a round of concentration, each day to maintain control. Makes it difficult to control powerful undead for any significant length of time, but retains opportunities for evil clerics to get in over their heads. :smallamused:

[Thrawn183]

Turning undead is like relativity, no one actually understands it.

[Psyren]

ask your DM for info in re: how many HD your opponents have (which, btw, is info you shouldn't know)

Nitpick - the DM doesn't have to share that info with you. He can simply send the appropriate number of undead scurrying for the exits.

Anyway, part of the clunkiness of the 3.5 version is that many undead are immune to fear but they wanted to do a fear effect. I do prefer the PF version though, which is a much more straightforward will save.

[Fax Celestis]

Nitpick - the DM doesn't have to share that info with you. He can simply send the appropriate number of undead scurrying for the exits.

Anyway, part of the clunkiness of the 3.5 version is that many undead are immune to fear but they wanted to do a fear effect. I do prefer the PF version though, which is a much more straightforward will save.

Yes he does, since you pick affected targets.

[Psyren]

Yes he does, since you pick affected targets.

I'm not seeing that - it says you turn the closest ones first. The only time the player gets to choose is when there are already-turned undead in the area and you have the option to skip over them.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm not seeing that - it says you turn the closest ones first. The only time the player gets to choose is when there are already-turned undead in the area and you have the option to skip over them.

And if there are four skeletons who are 15' away?

[Gnoman]

In the event that there are multiple undead exactly the same distance from you, they are of differing HD, and this difference in HD is not blindingly obvious, it could be argued that information is made available to the player that they otherwise would not have. This, however, is an exceedingly rare situation, as undead either tend to be interchangeable mooks (skeleton/zombie hoards), or very clearly different power levels (such as a vampire/lich with a bunch of minions). (Note that the mechanic relies on HD, not HP. Damage or varied HP rolls will have no effect).



Personally, I dislike turning because it makes encounters with undead extremely swingy even by 3.5 standards. Either you have a cleric that eliminates a level-appropriate undead without much of a fight, or you don't have one and the same encounter becomes really dangerous.

[Sliver]

I have a relevant question... Can an evil cleric get close to a rebuked (cowering) undead? A good cleric can't do it without it, ummm, breaking, the turning effect, but is there no such limit for the rebuke undead ability?

[Kelb_Panthera]

How does turn undead work? Poorly.

Undead hit dice grow at a much faster rate than CR. Consequently, at lower levels turn undead is iffy, by mid-level it's only useful if you've dedicated resources to making it viable, by high-level you can just forget about it unless you've dedicated your character to nuking undead with turning attempts and next to nothing else.

[Psyren]

And if there are four skeletons who are 15' away?

Determine randomly. I don't see anywhere that the player gets to choose, is what I'm saying.

(Honest question, by the way, I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing at this point.)

[Fax Celestis]

Determine randomly. I don't see anywhere that the player gets to choose, is what I'm saying.

(Honest question, by the way, I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing at this point.)

There isn't.

It's a very poorly defined, quadruple-limited (type, HD, area, effective turning level) ability that quite frankly either does nothing or ends the encounter.

[Dalebert]

Has anyone done a little play-testing to see if the variant turning rules from Complete Divine are comparable in power to turning? Without analyzing at all, they seem pretty good. Just the fact that damage stacks while the old turning didn't is a huge plus. For instance, things that you can destroy with just one turning old-style, are you roughly likely to destroy the same HD worth of things in one shot with the variant? More? Less?

[Dalebert]

Also, if a DM is using the variant, would it make sense to apply it to all forms of turning, i.e. the powers granted by some domains (Air, Earth, Water, Fire, and Plant)?

[Dalebert]

For instance, things that you can destroy with just one turning old-style, are you roughly likely to destroy the same HD worth of things in one shot with the variant? More? Less?

Actually, the math is pretty str8-fwd. You would normally destroy undead of half your hit dice or fewer on a successful turn. Shadows have 3 HD and 19 hp. Wraiths have 5 HD and 32 hp (d12). A cleric would do an average of 3.5 hp per d6 so a lvl 6 cleric would do about 3.5 * 6 = 21; enough to destroy a shadow. A lvl 10 would do 35; enough to destroy a wraith. It seems about right except that it's better because your doing dmg even if you don't destroy it making the ability more useful at higher levels even when the undead are getting relatively tougher.