What Questions does everyone want answered in a Linear Guild Prequel?

[CaDzilla]

I want to know what Malack's spawn were, how Nale and Sabine first met and slightly exploration into Drow society, even if it's very little.

[Chad30]

How did Nale and Sabine meet? What made z so loyal, and Nale loyal to him? Why exactly did he hate Malack so much? More details about the battle that led to his exile.

[DaggerPen]

I definitely want to know about how the various Linear Guild members met and why Nale hates Malack so much. Aside from that, I'd just generally like to get a better sense of Nale's childhood with Tarquin - we've gotten enough hints to know it must have been pretty rough, to say the least, but I'm curious to know more generally how Nale turned out how he turned out.

[ChristianSt]

All :smallcool:

... What, that isn't a valid option?

Then I would go with as much as possible. :smallwink:

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm interested in Sabine and the IFCC more than anything else. What were her exact orders? Was she originally supposed to manipulate Tarquin and use his empires? Why did she start working for the IFCC? Were the archfiends originally just doing things for the sake of Evil, or was there a unified goal like there currently is with the Gates?

Though I get the feeling that part of the story is less likely to get significant attention, and showing too much of the archfiends ruins their mysterious air.

[Zmeoaice]

Da-nanananananana Da-nanananananana BATMALACK

http://i40.tinypic.com/moeic.png

(THX to zimmerwald1915 for the image)

I'd also like to see Julio ruining Tarquin's weddings and Ian being thrown in prison.

[Benthesquid]

Where did Hilgya go after Dungeon Crawlin' Fools?

(Actually, if we could get a whole parallel book following Hilgya's adventures and encounters with the same things the OotS are dealing with (the fall of Azure City and rise of Gobbotopia, the death of a huge number of Black Dragons, the Cliffport Killings) but from a radically different perspective, that would be cool. No pressure or anything)

Seconded on Z's joining the Linear Guild.

[WindStruck]

What is Thog's favorite flavor of ice cream?

THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW!!

[DaggerPen]

What is Thog's favorite flavor of ice cream?

THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW!!

I would have guessed it was fudge ripple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html).

[Bird]

What sort of childhood did Thog have?

[Altessia]

Why did the Linear guild decide to get throw-away characters like Yikyik? These kobolds all show up for one piece of the comic, then get maimed and defiled upon their deaths.

A badass halfling monk would've been fun to see! Oppose Belkar's nature with a very soulful, deep-thinking sort of person Xp

[Bulldog Psion]

The question I want answered is, why do we need another story with that tedious vermin Tarquin in it? :smallbiggrin:

Edit: in order to forestall (ha!) some of the protesting clamor that might arise over my use of the word "tedious," I'll simply say that I also found Tarquin a lot more interesting originally. But now his endless, ponderous, "I-told-you-so" lectures are starting to seriously annoy me. He's gone from the savagely urbane tyrant to a noxious, nagging (if lethal) bore. For me, that is.

[Kish]

A Linear Guild prequel wouldn't need to be Tarquin-focused; Tarquin could be a minor character in Nale's story.

[CaDzilla]

Exactly, Start of Darkness didn't really have Xykon as the focus, but Redcloak.
Also, if anyone deserves to be the villain of this book, it's Malack

[Bird]

I think this quote of the Giant's is worth bringing up. He posted this in response to speculation about a prequel book for V's soul splices:


And as far as writing stories about them, no thanks. I don't see any appeal in writing a story where the main character is an unrepentant evil maniac, like all three of them clearly are. You'll note that Xykon isn't the main character of Start of Darkness, not really. Redcloak is. The best I could imagine would be writing a story where one of them was the villain, but that would be largely undercut by the fact that we know in advance that they are going to die and be damned to the Lower Planes.

So, yeah...not going to happen.

So, a prequel with a protagonist who is an "unrepentant evil maniac" is probably out. All of the Linear Guild characters are evil, and they're all pretty unrepentant. I guess which of them are "maniacs" might be the question -- or at least, which are closer to the Redcloak end of things than the Xykon end.

[TheBST]

How exactly did Nale and Xykon meet before the comic began?
There's a conversation I'd like to have witnessed- if only for some Thog/MitD banter.

[Synesthesy]

Tarquin may be as evil as Xykon, but Nale? We all now have assumed that he was that evil becouse of his father, so now that he's death Nale could be a protagonist just like Redcloak (who, IMHO, is more evil then Nale, even if reddie has got a good mission for the sake of goblin's race)

[CaDzilla]

The Linear Guild do have depth as characters and we know more about them than those 3 splices.

[Grey Watcher]

Assuming we do get a Linear Guild prequel, I think I'd want most to see the details of what happened when Nale was nine that made him decide he wanted to kill Malack.

Though the idea of a dialogue scene with Thog and the MITD does sound hilarious.

[orrion]

Assuming we do get a Linear Guild prequel, I think I'd want most to see the details of what happened when Nale was nine that made him decide he wanted to kill Malack.

Though the idea of a dialogue scene with Thog and the MITD does sound hilarious.

:thog: oooo a gate

:mitd: What gate?

:thog: thog forgot

[CaDzilla]

Assuming we do get a Linear Guild prequel, I think I'd want most to see the details of what happened when Nale was nine that made him decide he wanted to kill Malack.


Seeing as how he called Laurin his aunt, what was his relationship to the rest of Team Tarquin?

[Bulldog Psion]

How exactly did Nale and Xykon meet before the comic began?
There's a conversation I'd like to have witnessed- if only for some Thog/MitD banter.

This is an excellent point. I'd love to see that, too.

[Divayth Fyr]

Seeing as how he called Laurin his aunt, what was his relationship to the rest of Team Tarquin?
The speech balloon used quotation marks for that - likely Tarquin had Nale call the members of the TT his uncles and aunts (with Malack removed from that later for obvious reasons).

[Synesthesy]

Assuming we do get a Linear Guild prequel, I think I'd want most to see the details of what happened when Nale was nine that made him decide he wanted to kill Malack.


I'm Italian, and I'm afraid that Malack was a Evil Catholic Priest of Nergal :smalleek:

[Grey Watcher]

Seeing as how he called Laurin his aunt, what was his relationship to the rest of Team Tarquin?


The speech balloon used quotation marks for that - likely Tarquin had Nale call the members of the TT his uncles and aunts (with Malack removed from that later for obvious reasons).

Yeah, pretty sure she's an honorary aunt, just as a lot of my parents' friends were introduced to me as "Aunt This" or "Uncle That" even though they're of no biological relationship to me, but are, in fact, things like my dad's childhood friends or college buddies or whatever.

[orrion]

Seeing as how he called Laurin his aunt, what was his relationship to the rest of Team Tarquin?

Likely the same - treated as aunts and uncles because close friends of the family. Roy had the same sort of thing happen with Eugene's old adventuring buddies.

[Copperdragon]

Oh, gods, please no Linear Guild Prequel. Please, please no. They had their time in the screenlight, they had their backstory, it was covered in the story, it was good that way (from the view in the rear mirror), but please not more of that.

Rich, rather pick something more interesting. Who cares what went between Nale and Malack? I doubt it's getting more interesting by knowing the details, they are not necessary for the story. Especially as it already closed in the main storyline.

[Gift Jeraff]

Oh, gods, please no Linear Guild Prequel. Please, please no. They had their time in the screenlight, they had their backstory, it was covered in the story, it was good that way (from the view in the rear mirror), but please not more of that.

Rich, rather pick something more interesting. Who cares what went between Nale and Malack? I doubt it's getting more interesting by knowing the details, they are not necessary for the story. Especially as it already closed in the main storyline.

Your opinion sucks.

[Heksefatter]

I would definitely read a LG prequel, but personally I think an Order of the Scribble prequel would be more interesting. A Linear Guild prequel would likely focus quite a bit on Nale and how he got warped under Tarquin's overbearing personality. But part of the charm of Team Tarquin as a story is how they were introduced as amiable characters, even if many guessed they were evil. Eventually the monsters revealed themselves. That reveal can't be done again.

Also, while I love Tarquin as a villain, an entire story with him in a prominent role might be pushing it. I feel such a story would likely be overtroperrific.

Furthermore, using an entirely villainous cast is dangerous, and it can be difficult to create sympathy in the reader. The Linear Guild and Team Tarquin are scum. While they may be amiable enough in some cases, they are all selfish with the possible exception of Malack, whose unselfish goals were entirely unsympathetic.

With all these "buts", I would still like to see what happened between Nale and Malack.

[The Pilgrim]

There is one and only one big question to be answered by a LG prequel:

- Nale: Nature or Nurture?

[CaDzilla]

I would definitely read a LG prequel, but personally I think an Order of the Scribble prequel would be more interesting. A Linear Guild prequel would likely focus quite a bit on Nale and how he got warped under Tarquin's overbearing personality. But part of the charm of Team Tarquin as a story is how they were introduced as amiable characters, even if many guessed they were evil. Eventually the monsters revealed themselves. That reveal can't be done again.

Also, while I love Tarquin as a villain, an entire story with him in a prominent role might be pushing it. I feel such a story would likely be overtroperrific.

Furthermore, using an entirely villainous cast is dangerous, and it can be difficult to create sympathy in the reader. The Linear Guild and Team Tarquin are scum. While they may be amiable enough in some cases, they are all selfish with the possible exception of Malack, whose unselfish goals were entirely unsympathetic.

With all these "buts", I would still like to see what happened between Nale and Malack.
This coming arc about the last gate will probably tell everybody what they need to know about the Scribble. After all, it's where the Scribble started to drift apart.

You obviously wouldn't focus too much of your time as a reader on Tarquin, it would probably shift to Malack, the main focus of Nale's anger.

Also, what about SoD? It made the Sapphire Guard, a bastion of light and hope, look very unsympathetic.

[Happy Gravity]

There is one and only one big question to be answered by a LG prequel:

- Nale: Nature or Nurture?
Both! tenchar

[Heksefatter]

This coming arc about the last gate will probably tell everybody what they need to know about the Scribble. After all, it's where the Scribble started to drift apart.

You obviously wouldn't focus too much of your time as a reader on Tarquin, it would probably shift to Malack, the main focus of Nale's anger.

Also, what about SoD? It made the Sapphire Guard, a bastion of light and hope, look very unsympathetic.

The thing with SoD is that the real focus is actually Redcloak and the goblins, not Xykon. And though Redcloak is evil, his struggles and those of his fellow goblins do call on sympathy. The overall goal of goblin equality is sympathetic, even though it is gradually perverted. And the way that the goblins are treated does call on sympathy.

But Nale has always been a highly selfish being. While Team Tarquin can be likeable enough initially, they have very few truly redeeming features. To me, the story runs a great risk of being bastard vs. bastards, and failing to give an answer about why I should care about any of these people.

[Bird]

The thing with SoD is that the real focus is actually Redcloak and the goblins, not Xykon. And though Redcloak is evil, his struggles and those of his fellow goblins do call on sympathy. The overall goal of goblin equality is sympathetic, even though it is gradually perverted. And the way that the goblins are treated does call on sympathy.

But Nale has always been a highly selfish being. While Team Tarquin can be likeable enough initially, they have very few truly redeeming features. To me, the story runs a great risk of being bastard vs. bastards, and failing to give an answer about why I should care about any of these people.
Among Team Tarquin, Laurin seems to have a fairly sympathetic goal (though I am sure this goes along with 'irredeeming' features as well -- did she know about Malack's plans?). But, she's such a minor character at this point that it's hard to imagine her carrying a story.

[Heksefatter]

Among Team Tarquin, Laurin seems to have a fairly sympathetic goal (though I am sure this goes along with 'irredeeming' features as well -- did she know about Malack's plans?). But, she's such a minor character at this point that it's hard to imagine her carrying a story.

I thought of that, but it doesn't really add up, does it? Laurin is already a rich and personally powerful woman, a near-epic psion. (Possibly epic, my guess is barely not there). She already has all that she needs to assure her daughter a peaceful and comfortable life. Maybe this is what she tells herself, but it isn't really plausible.

[Bird]

I thought of that, but it doesn't really add up, does it? Laurin is already a rich and personally powerful woman, a near-epic psion. (Possibly epic, my guess is barely not there). She already has all that she needs to assure her daughter a peaceful and comfortable life. Maybe this is what she tells herself, but it isn't really plausible.
Oh, sure, I'm right there with you -- it doesn't add up on a practical level. A bloody international conspiracy is a bizarre way of keeping a random plumber safe.

But, it seems that a relatable motive at least occupies some portion of her consciousness -- even if that is only what she tells herself. So, she at least appears to be less of an evil maniac than the likes of Xykon or Nale -- though, so did Malack.

[Heksefatter]

Oh, sure, I'm right there with you -- it doesn't add up on a practical level. A bloody international conspiracy is a bizarre way of keeping a random plumber safe.

But, it seems that a relatable motive at least occupies some portion of her consciousness -- even if that is only what she tells herself. So, she at least appears to be less of an evil maniac than the likes of Xykon or Nale -- though, so did Malack.

I think even Tarquin is less evil than Xykon. Xykon doesn't have any redeeming features of all. Even Tarquin and Malack are at least capable of some sort of friendship.

In any case, while it may well be that Laurin is less evil than the rest of her troupe, it is not really enough to make her a sympathetic character in the story of the LG. Also, my guess is that an LG prequel would have most focus on Nale. After Nale, his cohorts, particularly Sabine, would have the biggest role, together with Tarquin and Malack. Laurin would probably not be a very big character in the story. Almost surely not higher than the no. 5 spot (after Nale, Sabine, Tarquin and Malack) and possibly lower. I can't see how she could be the basis of audience sympathy.

[Bird]

I think even Tarquin is less evil than Xykon. Xykon doesn't have any redeeming features of all. Even Tarquin and Malack are at least capable of some sort of friendship.
Tarquin is pretty gosh darned evil, but yes, he doesn't have quite the unstoppable antisocial impulse that Xykon does.


In any case, while it may well be that Laurin is less evil than the rest of her troupe, it is not really enough to make her a sympathetic character in the story of the LG. Also, my guess is that an LG prequel would have most focus on Nale. After Nale, his cohorts, particularly Sabine, would have the biggest role, together with Tarquin and Malack. Laurin would probably not be a very big character in the story. Almost surely not higher than the no. 5 spot (after Nale, Sabine, Tarquin and Malack) and possibly lower. I can't see how she could be the basis of audience sympathy.
Oh, yeah, 5 spot is generous. I'd certainly expect to see more of Thog, and there are many other characters who could potentially be more prominent -- The Empress, The Fiends, Z, Hilgya, even unnamed folks like a "love interest" of Tarquin's, a child of Malack's, etc. I could see her carrying her own little story if the book was done Origin of PC's style, though, or being an important part of the dynamic when TT is together.

Really though, I'm just not sure whether this is a book the Giant would want to write.

[angry_bear]

Not all stories need sympathy though. Some just need you to understand the character. Seeing as a LG prequel would likely be comprised of a single book, you can get away with having that sort of story. The only real problem is when an ongoing series is comprised of nothing but unlikable monsters. It shouldn't really be a problem with a one off book though.

[bguy]

Oh, sure, I'm right there with you -- it doesn't add up on a practical level. A bloody international conspiracy is a bizarre way of keeping a random plumber safe.

Maybe Hannah's father was someone even more powerful than Laurin who wanted to take Hannah away from her, so she needed a group of powerful allies to help keep him away.

[Bird]

Not all stories need sympathy though. Some just need you to understand the character. Seeing as a LG prequel would likely be comprised of a single book, you can get away with having that sort of story. The only real problem is when an ongoing series is comprised of nothing but unlikable monsters. It shouldn't really be a problem with a one off book though.
My starting point for this train of thought was when the Giant said (in response to the idea of a prequel for the soul splices) that "I don't see any appeal in writing a story where the main character is an unrepentant evil maniac". He pointed out that Redcloak is the main character in SoD, not Xykon. So, a potential issue is whether or not the LG characters are close enough to the Redcloak end of things as opposed to the Xykyon end that the Giant would want to write it.


Maybe Hannah's father was someone even more powerful than Laurin who wanted to take Hannah away from her, so she needed a group of powerful allies to help keep him away.
That could help explainher joining up with TT, yeah. At a certain point, though, I think the rational course of action is to find a safe part of the world to teleport your daughter to -- not to keep toppling nation-states. Laurin's justification strikes me as a bit Walter White.

[Tetsujin-28]

I think this quote of the Giant's is worth bringing up. He posted this in response to speculation about a prequel book for V's soul splices:



So, a prequel with a protagonist who is an "unrepentant evil maniac" is probably out. All of the Linear Guild characters are evil, and they're all pretty unrepentant. I guess which of them are "maniacs" might be the question -- or at least, which are closer to the Redcloak end of things than the Xykon end.

It's possible that the prequel could begin with Nale having more sympathetic qualities only to lose them as the story goes on, either due to his upbringing or a traumatic event, bringing him closer to the Redcloak side of things. There have been hints of him being the way he is due to his environment (as opposed to Xykon who seems to have had a good environment yet turned out to be a horrible monster anyway) so it's not entirely impossible.

Though, my bet is that if there is a Linear Guild prequel, Sabine will be the main character. It's safe to say that Rich still has future plans for her, and while she's definitely evil, she has been shown to form working relationships with others (primarily Nale, but she was rather friendly towards V and Miko) which makes it easier to write a story about her. Rich's comment is certainly vague and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think his comment was mainly referring to how Xykon and the soul splices are pretty much "If you're not useful to me, then I will kill you" characters, making them difficult to write stories where they're the main protagonists about while Sabine's at least open to forming relationships with others and not as willing to murder on a whim.

[hoff]

Shoulderpad guy name and class

What is Miron's debt to Tarquin

How the IFCC came to be (it is tied to Sabine background)

Elan's mom name

I would still like an Order of the Scribble prequel more though. They did not get as much screentime as the linear guild.

[Bird]

It's possible that the prequel could begin with Nale having more sympathetic qualities only to lose them as the story goes on, either due to his upbringing or a traumatic event, bringing him closer to the Redcloak side of things. There have been hints of him being the way he is due to his environment (as opposed to Xykon who seems to have had a good environment yet turned out to be a horrible monster anyway) so it's not entirely impossible.

Though, my bet is that if there is a Linear Guild prequel, Sabine will be the main character. It's safe to say that Rich still has future plans for her, and while she's definitely evil, she has been shown to form working relationships with others (primarily Nale, but she was rather friendly towards V and Miko) which makes it easier to write a story about her. Rich's comment is certainly vague and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think his comment was mainly referring to how Xykon and the soul splices are pretty much "If you're not useful to me, then I will kill you" characters, making them difficult to write stories where they're the main protagonists about while Sabine's at least open to forming relationships with others and not as willing to murder on a whim.
We have seen a goateed infant Nale smacking infant Elan in his underdeveloped head -- but we know that Giant doesn't really believe that infants can be evil, so maybe Nale did take a turn for the worse.

I'd love a Sabine-focused story. There's a lot of mystery surrounding her complex of motivations, and I've always appreciated that her love for Nale has been chief among them. I figure we'll get a lot more on her in the main story, but her origin tale would be a lot of fun to see.

My impression is the Sabine is fairly willing to murder on a whim, but I agree that she's not a maniac in the Xykon or Haerta Bloodsoak mold.

[SowZ]

What is Thog's favorite flavor of ice cream?

THE WORLD NEEDS TO KNOW!!

It's purple.

[Tetsujin-28]

We have seen a goateed infant Nale smacking infant Elan in his underdeveloped head -- but we know that Giant doesn't really believe that infants can be evil, so maybe Nale did take a turn for the worse.

That was just a joke from the earlier strips, which were still pretty sparse on plot, long before Rich had in mind the deep story we have now. Again, don't wanna put words in Rich's mouth, but I get the feeling that if he wrote that today, he wouldn't have put in that joke. Sort of like how the Dungeon of Dorukan having a very different back story for Roy.


I'd love a Sabine-focused story. There's a lot of mystery surrounding her complex of motivations, and I've always appreciated that her love for Nale has been chief among them. I figure we'll get a lot more on her in the main story, but her origin tale would be a lot of fun to see.

Agreed.


My impression is the Sabine is fairly willing to murder on a whim, but I agree that she's not a maniac in the Xykon or Haerta Bloodsoak mold.

Yeah now that I think about it, she did do ritual sacrifices with Nale on a regular basis, so yeah I guess you could say that she does murder on a whim, heh. Still not Xykon/Haerta levels of craziness, though. That's hard to top.

[Synesthesy]

However, Tarquin is not less evil then Xykon. Simply Xykon is chaotic, and Tarquin is Lawful. Friendship and loyalty to a group is part of the Lawful, not Evil alligment. This is why Tarquin can think for the best for his group or family (or better: for what he think is the best) and he can be an evil tyrant who burn slaves.
Tarquin is not better then Xykon, nor he's more charismatic. Tarquin is just smarter.

And the eventual prequel would use Tarquin just as SoD used Xykon: a minor charapter whose story is told in function of the story of the main charapter (Nale or Reddie).

Nale was evil, but not so evil. And Elan didn't want to hurt him, his dream was to be a family. Now, read everything in this arc, how he died, how he acted against his oppressive father, we are more sympatetic for him. So, a prequel book could ruin what the main story has done.... If you didn't want Nale to be sympatetic, you would have to make him die another way.

[Bird]

That was just a joke from the earlier strips, which were still pretty sparse on plot, long before Rich had in mind the deep story we have now. Again, don't wanna put words in Rich's mouth, but I get the feeling that if he wrote that today, he wouldn't have put in that joke. Sort of like how the Dungeon of Dorukan having a very different back story for Roy.
Yes, agreed, a joke -- OotS is not going to seriously forward the idea that a baby (a non-supernatural baby, at that) is evil.


However, Tarquin is not less evil then Xykon. Simply Xykon is chaotic, and Tarquin is Lawful. Friendship and loyalty to a group is part of the Lawful, not Evil alligment. This is why Tarquin can think for the best for his group or family (or better: for what he think is the best) and he can be an evil tyrant who burn slaves.
Tarquin is not better then Xykon, nor he's more charismatic. Tarquin is just smarter.
As a quibble, friendship is neither lawful nor chaotic. Elan's alignment doesn't make him any less capable of friendship than Hinjo.


And the eventual prequel would use Tarquin just as SoD used Xykon: a minor charapter whose story is told in function of the story of the main charapter (Nale or Reddie).

Nale was evil, but not so evil. And Elan didn't want to hurt him, his dream was to be a family. Now, read everything in this arc, how he died, how he acted against his oppressive father, we are more sympatetic for him. So, a prequel book could ruin what the main story has done.... If you didn't want Nale to be sympatetic, you would have to make him die another way.
Dunno. Thing is, Redcloak, while evil, has an altruistic goal in mind. As Heksefatter brings up, if Nale has ever been less than selfish -- we haven't seen any evidence of it. Given the Cliffport massacre, I don't think he's less evil than Tarquin, either; he's just less successful.

It would be possible to have a story in which we saw flickers of good in him get snuffed out.

[SinisterLaugh]

Don`t think I want any particular question to be answered. Just want to see Nale and his team in action again :smallsmile:

[FlawedParadigm]

I, personally, am all for a prequel about how things came to be in the lives of Tarquin, Nale, and pals. After the main story finishes, however. I'd like to know more of Westeros too, but as I've been reading both stories for at or over ten years now, I want to see how they conclude before dipping into stuff I'm merely curious about from an academic perspective. (Yes, I mean beyond the scope of the Dunk & Egg stories.)

[ti'esar]

Tarquin is not better then Xykon, nor he's more charismatic. Tarquin is just smarter.

I don't see any reason to believe that Tarquin is smarter than Xykon, and at least two good reasons to think that he isn't. Xykon is lazier, but that's not the same thing.

[Heksefatter]

I don't see any reason to believe that Tarquin is smarter than Xykon, and at least two good reasons to think that he isn't. Xykon is lazier, but that's not the same thing.

You can definitely make some arguments that Tarquin is the smarter of the two. I think it is true, but I agree that the arguments are not conclusive.

- Xykon can be incredibly rash. During the battle of Azure city, he rushed directly into the throne room. This led to a fight which almost finished Xykon off for good. And this was entirely unnecessary. Even if Xykon had succesfully taken the throne room, he was in no position to exploit the gate without Redcloak. And even with Redcloak there, they probably couldn't have done anything before they held the throne room without disturbance for at least a day or so - hard to guarantee with a hostile army around them.

- Xykon lacks tactics. Note how in the fight with V, Xykon has to rely on Redcloak's advice. During the Azure city attack, Xykon's lack of strategy could have led to defeat even ignoring the foolish attack on the throne room, if Redcloak hadn't cooked up the strategy. Xykon wasn't just lazy there; he didn't cooperate in the slightest with Redcloak, even though a slight amount of cooperation would have benefited his side enormously.

-Xykon was at times very, very stupid in his living days as shown in SoD. He smartened up since, but from a low base.


There are some counterarguments, though. Xykon's intelligence is of a different sort than Tarquin's. Tarquin is calculating and a skilled strategist. Xykon is emotional. While he is easy to manipulate, he is also extremely skilled at manipulating others. I'd say that while Tarquin has more intellect than Xykon, Xykon possibly has him beaten when it comes to low cunning.

[AgentofHellfire]

Dunno. Thing is, Redcloak, while evil, has an altruistic goal in mind. As Heksefatter brings up, if Nale has ever been less than selfish -- we haven't seen any evidence of it. Given the Cliffport massacre, I don't think he's less evil than Tarquin, either; he's just less successful.

It would be possible to have a story in which we saw flickers of good in him get snuffed out.

Towards most of the world, yeah, Nale is pretty selfish. Towards his team-mates, though...we actually do see some flickers of genuine loyalty. He reacts with genuine protectiveness when Zzt'dri is hurt, for example.

And of course, the Linear Guild isn't just Nale. When you look at Sabine and Zzt'dri especially you can see some serious unselfish acts in the rest of them.

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't know if team loyalty is enough to make the story anything but a tale of a bunch of depressing scoundrels succeeding, though. :smallwink:

[davidbofinger]

Laurin [...] already has all that she needs to assure her daughter a peaceful and comfortable life.

To have a peaceful life on the western continent requires a government that keeps order and doesn't get attacked by the elves. So Laurin needs, probably, one of these:

something like the Team Tarquin conspiracy;
someone in charge that the elves would not mind being powerful; or
emigration.


The second option was impractical initially because there was no elf-compatible power, that we know, willing to take over. It's stayed impossible because of who she's working with: Tarquin isn't going to just abdicate. Her own alignment might have been an issue as well.

The third option might be possible, but people get attached to their homes and don't want to leave. Laurin and Hannah have probably put down a lot of roots.

But yes, it does seem the tail is wagging the dog, or in this case allosaur.

[Kish]

I think, "I want my daughter to have a peaceful life here, so I'll play the continent against itself and dominate it in a 20+-year-scheme" would make Nale say, "Isn't that a little needlessly complicated"?

Whatever roots Hannah has put down get torn up every few years when the kingdom/principality/empire she's living in falls. Being able to replant them in the same place is a dubious benefit.

[Heksefatter]

To have a peaceful life on the western continent requires a government that keeps order and doesn't get attacked by the elves. So Laurin needs, probably, one of these:

something like the Team Tarquin conspiracy;
someone in charge that the elves would not mind being powerful; or
emigration.


The second option was impractical initially because there was no elf-compatible power, that we know, willing to take over. It's stayed impossible because of who she's working with: Tarquin isn't going to just abdicate. Her own alignment might have been an issue as well.

The third option might be possible, but people get attached to their homes and don't want to leave. Laurin and Hannah have probably put down a lot of roots.

But yes, it does seem the tail is wagging the dog, or in this case allosaur.

I always interpreted Laurin's comment about how she did it in order for her daughter Hannah to have a good life far away from all this, in a way that Hannah was literally far away and unaffected directly by the manipulations of Team Tarquin.

If it was the rest, Laurin could defend her actions with pointing out how people on the continent were generally better off for the Team Tarquin trickery.

[Flame of Anor]

Xykon's intelligence is of a different sort than Tarquin's. Tarquin is calculating and a skilled strategist. Xykon is emotional. While he is easy to manipulate, he is also extremely skilled at manipulating others. I'd say that while Tarquin has more intellect than Xykon, Xykon possibly has him beaten when it comes to low cunning.

That is to say, Xykon has high Cha and low Int, as you'd expect from a sorcerer.

[oonker]

I just want the book title to be: On the Origin of NPCs

[Heksefatter]

That is to say, Xykon has high Cha and low Int, as you'd expect from a sorcerer.

I don't think that Xykon's Int is that low...I'd guess it to be like 12-13. Xykon can be clever, when he feels that he needs to be. His Cha, of course, is extremely high. Higher than Tarquin's, which is also high - Xykon is the epic sorcerer lich.

[oonker]

I don't think that Xykon's Int is that low...I'd guess it to be like 12-13. Xykon can be clever, when he feels that he needs to be. His Cha, of course, is extremely high. Higher than Tarquin's, which is also high - Xykon is the epic sorcerer lich.

I think Xykon started the story with below average Intelligence, but with the +3 bônus he gets as an age modifier, he went up to +12 (above average).

Lich template adds Int?

[Kish]

I think Xykon started the story with below average Intelligence, but with the +3 bônus he gets as an age modifier, he went up to +12 (above average).

Lich template adds Int?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

[Heksefatter]

I think Xykon started the story with below average Intelligence, but with the +3 bônus he gets as an age modifier, he went up to +12 (above average).

Lich template adds Int?

+2 as Kish's link points out.


SoD spoiler below:
It is pointed out in SoD too, before Xykon's transformation to lichdom. Redcloak tells him that he will become a little smarter. The demon roaches mock Xykon, saying "5th grade reading level, here you come" as a comment to the improved Int. Just before that, Xykon had demonstrated almost Elanesque stupidity, being a necromancer who didn't know that intelligent undead existed.

However, Xykon also had the opportunity to increase Int through levelling up. He was powerful before lichdom, but clearly gained since. So it is definitely plausible that he maybe increased his Int from maybe 7-8 to 12-13 somewhere along the road by adding up the Int increases due to lichdom and levels. Maybe also the elapsed time and a tome of clear though or two along the road. Who knows?

[Angel Bob]

Oh, gods, please no Linear Guild Prequel. Please, please no. They had their time in the screenlight, they had their backstory, it was covered in the story, it was good that way (from the view in the rear mirror), but please not more of that.

Rich, rather pick something more interesting. Who cares what went between Nale and Malack? I doubt it's getting more interesting by knowing the details, they are not necessary for the story. Especially as it already closed in the main storyline.

Geez, no one's making you buy a book about a bunch of characters you clearly detest. There's a reason that the important story is covered online for free.

That said, I eagerly await a LG/TT prequel. I don't see why everyone's so worried about the characters being unsympathetic, though. Rich wouldn't have to play up Nale's (nonexistent) good traits to get the audience to sympathize; he'd just have to play up the villainous traits of Tarquin and Malack (who I really want to see elaborated on). Furthermore... A detestable and deplorable man once said "Audiences always think the villain is cooler than the hero anyway", and though he's a egomaniac psychopath, he had a point.

[CaDzilla]

I just want the book title to be: On the Origin of NPCs

Line and Punishment

[ImperatorV]

In my mind, there is one question above all others that MUST be answered if there is a linear guild/TT prequel.

How did Thog flood the palace with lemon pudding? And more importantly, what was TT's reaction to it?

Also, backstory for Sabine and Miron would be nice. I like Miron a lot (based on what we've seen), and other posters already covered why Sabine would make a interesting character.

[konradknox]

Nale's upbringing and training.

Thog's recruitment.

Hulgyia's recruitment.

Sabine.

[Zerozzz0290]

Seeing as how he called Laurin his aunt, what was his relationship to the rest of Team Tarquin?

I'm pretty sure "aunt" is just used as "familiarity" term, as in "that friend of my father who is allways around so everyone in the party is sort of like family" We do know Roy's father had a friend whom they called "uncle" and was responsible for the many resurrections of said character.

[Copperdragon]

Geez, no one's making you buy a book about a bunch of characters you clearly detest. There's a reason that the important story is covered online for free.

That is not the point. The point is I'd rather by a book about other characters. I would also buy a book about the LG and it probably would be ok, as is the story with the LG, even if I dislike some of the characters.

But I am expressing that I'd rather see a different prequel book. I did not know this was forbidden and I want to express I dislike the style that some people seem to feel offended and how they react to me stating I'd rather prefer chocolate instead of strawberry.

So yes, think I suck or my opinion sucks, but I still think I'd like it better if one of the rare prequels was about something or someone else than the LG. Given the screentime they got, how close they are tied into the main story via Elan, that it's likely they'll get a prequel...

[Magesmiley]

Where did Hilgya go after Dungeon Crawlin' Fools?

My personal prediction is that we've not seen the last of Hilgya in the main story. The next big arc points strongly towards the homeland of the dwarves and a big part for Durkon. Hilgya's involvement once again would be fuel for a number of different interesting stories and situations, particularly for Durkon. I can't see her not at least make an appearance.


I'll second Line and Punishment as a name to be considered.

[Ghost Nappa]

Nale Vs. Malack's babies
What happened to Hilgya?
Z'zdrti's jail time
Thog's life under a pile of broken load-bearing columns
Thog's life pre-LG
An average day in the life of Sabine
Why Nale wants/grows a Goatee (and doesn't shave it off)
How Sabine/Nale met
Why Nale always picks Kobolds to be anti-Belkar
Thog's Sleepover at the Barbarian Guild

[oonker]

I get it: Hilgya was very important for one of the main characters, and is still a lose piece of artistic resource, since she could be written into the story again.

But why do you all get so emotional around her? I mean, why want her back, why want her origin story (putting it side by side with Thog or Sabine, for instance)? It is a serious question, maybe I didn't see something that you guys've seen...

As for myself, I think that she was a one-dimensional character that served her purpose, and that had no other utility than popping Durkon's cherry.

[Kish]

Why not put her alongside the thug Thog?

I don't wish to criticize anyone who finds Thog's humor amusing, but a pure-humor character is what Thog is. Hilgya wasn't exactly overloaded with depth, but she, like an inch-deep puddle, certainly has/had far more than Thog does/did.

And what audience sympathy Sabine has recently commanded, has taken the form entirely of being torn between two loyalties--both of them utterly evil. If you were going, "Huh, why would anyone want a Linear Guild prequel?" I'd understand the sentiment though I'd wonder why you were threadcrapping, but instead you're singling out one character as though she was either shallower or morally worse than characters you apparently understand the appeal of, when she isn't.

[Coat]

How did Thog flood the palace with lemon pudding? And more importantly, what was TT's reaction to it?

Lime and PUNishment

I'd like to know more about Malack. Why's he a weird snake/lizard thing? What was the now extinct barbarian tribe he was shaman of? Who was the vampire that turned him, and how did he feel about that at the time? What turned him to the worship of Nergal, and was he always evil? What made him become so?

Why and how did a centuries-old vampire lizard/snake thing join up with a self-absorbed story-mad buffoon like Tarquin?

Certainly feels to me as if there's potential for Malack's story to be a tragedy, monster though he turned out to be.

I'd also be interested to find out more about Miron, Laruin, Jacinda and Shoulderpad Guy. I suspect we'll see more of them, but extrapolating from Malack - who's role in the story is definitely finished - I doubt we'll get much of their history. How come they decided to work together?


Hilgya - well, Durkon is going back to the ancestral homeland that he told her to return to. And Durkon's been through some changes of his own since then. And those changes have been planned since almost the first episode. So who knows?

[oonker]

Why not put her alongside the thug Thog?

I don't wish to criticize anyone who finds Thog's humor amusing, but a pure-humor character is what Thog is. Hilgya wasn't exactly overloaded with depth, but she, like an inch-deep puddle, certainly has/had far more than Thog does/did.

And what audience sympathy Sabine has recently commanded, has taken the form entirely of being torn between two loyalties--both of them utterly evil. If you were going, "Huh, why would anyone want a Linear Guild prequel?" I'd understand the sentiment though I'd wonder why you were threadcrapping, but instead you're singling out one character as though she was either shallower or morally worse than characters you apparently understand the appeal of, when she isn't.


My thing is: I've seen people wishing for a Hilgya comeback. I don't think she had that importance in the story. Actually, I think she served the purpose of showing that Durkon cares a hell lot about traditions. And that's it.

I wouldn't put her side by side with Thog or Sabine (or even Z, for that matter), due to their adamant loyalty towards Nale. Why do they have it? Why is it shown that, since the origin of the LG, they are by Nale's side?

(in other news, I tried looking for the comic where it's shown LG fighting Tarquin, two years ago, but didn't find it. If anyone could link me there, it would be great!)

[Kish]

I wouldn't put her side by side with Thog or Sabine (or even Z, for that matter), due to their adamant loyalty towards Nale. Why do they have it? Why is it shown that, since the origin of the LG, they are by Nale's side?
Why is "adamant loyalty towards Nale" worth exploring and "disloyalty towards Nale, specifically infiltrating his group on the direct orders of a god" not worth exploring?

[oonker]

Why is "adamant loyalty towards Nale" worth exploring and "disloyalty towards Nale, specifically infiltrating his group on the direct orders of a god" not worth exploring?

IMHO?

Because the "disloaylty" thing is recurrent. Yikyik, Yokyok, the Half-elf, the Gnome Druid, Tarquin, Malack... the LG is full of disloyalty, but only a handful (Sabine and Thog, and in a smaller scale Z "never stopped") remained true to him.

Thog went in rage for the first time in-comic because he thought Nale wouldn't be able to come to bust him out of prison. Sabine clearly loves Nale.

I think Hilgya did not infiltrate LG. She was just recruited due to being a dwarf, a cleric and evil. And that's it. But that's how I see it. And so I am asking: is there anything else that I did not see, or is it just fandonism?

[Angel Bob]

(in other news, I tried looking for the comic where it's shown LG fighting Tarquin, two years ago, but didn't find it. If anyone could link me there, it would be great!)

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

The strip's entitled "The Significantly-More-Secret Origin of Tarquin and Nale", which I thought was an amusing nod to #50.

[Divayth Fyr]

There is one and only one big question to be answered by a LG prequel:

- Nale: Nature or Nurture?
Both!
Most likely answer - the nurture didn't help, but the nature also seemed to be a bit... not so good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).


However, Xykon also had the opportunity to increase Int through levelling up. He was powerful before lichdom, but clearly gained since. So it is definitely plausible that he maybe increased his Int from maybe 7-8 to 12-13 somewhere along the road by adding up the Int increases due to lichdom and levels. Maybe also the elapsed time and a tome of clear though or two along the road. Who knows?
A tome I could see - I'm not sure Xyxon would see the benefit in increasing Int from levelling (and I believe undead don't gain benefits from simple passage of time - unlike mortals getting age categories).

[Kalrany]

What about a more episodic version? Instead of a long story about one group of NPCs, a collection in the vein of SSaDT? You can have the LG, TT, Scribble, Helga, Sabine, Fiends, anyone else that significantly impacts the story. This makes a bit of sense if you were interested in a book Origin of the NPCs (yes, I know it is a play on the real book 0 Origin, but still). There are a number of NPCs afterall, any of which could be interesting enough for thier stories to be told.

I am curious as to how the Fiends ended up creating their "truce for the sake of evil" (Team Evil maybe?) idea. I don't think the main comic will go over that, as it really doesn't seem relevent to the plot, but I would be interested in seeing how that came about. Maybe with a bit of how Sabine came to be involved?

[oonker]

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

The strip's entitled "The Significantly-More-Secret Origin of Tarquin and Nale", which I thought was an amusing nod to #50.

Thank you, Angel Bob!

I wanted this strip to further try to make my case that the dwarven female cleric is not that important. I had the impression that Hilgya was not present in it. Hell, even Yik Yik is in it (or a random kobold that died)!

[Harbinger]

I want to feel really bad for Nale, and see his actions put into perspective. I want the LG prequel do for Nale what SoD did for Redcloak.

I want to see how Nale met Thog and Zz'dtri.

But most of all, I want to see Malack again. And I want to see him being evil. In our regrettably brief time with him, we never saw him do anything truly evil. I mean, we know he was evil, because he talked about committing genocide and was a bloodsucking monstrosity. I want to see what he did to Nale, and I want to feel even worse for Nale when I find out what it is.

And then I want to see the Linear Guild meet Xykon and Redcloak, because that'd just be funny.

[Angel Bob]

But most of all, I want to see Malack again. And I want to see him being evil. In our regrettably brief time with him, we never saw him do anything truly evil. I mean, we know he was evil, because he talked about committing genocide and was a bloodsucking monstrosity. I want to see what he did to Nale, and I want to feel even worse for Nale when I find out what it is.

Seconded so much.

[Heksefatter]

A tome I could see - I'm not sure Xyxon would see the benefit in increasing Int from levelling (and I believe undead don't gain benefits from simple passage of time - unlike mortals getting age categories).

I thought about the same, but I was more arguing from the basis that Xykon seems to have increased his Int by 4-6 points, only 2 of which could have come from lichdom. Thus, there "had" (quotation marks since ability score estimates should be taken too seriously) to be more sources of increased Int than lichdom. So the Giant may have house-ruled that his Int increased due to the passing of time, or Xykon might have surprised us and increased his Int. After all, with his increased Int from lichdom, he could possibly see that his lack of Int was a weakness.

[rodneyAnonymous]

"Magic item with intelligence bonus" seems like it's by far the best explanation.

[Heksefatter]

"Magic item with intelligence bonus" seems like it's by far the best explanation.

Actually yes.

[Porthos]

I just want the book title to be: On the Origin of NPCs

When this was originally mooted many moons ago, a popular proposed title was:

A Brief History of Crime

Since then, Rich has said he doesn't always want to go for 'punny' titles. But I still like it. :smallwink:

[CaDzilla]

An Introduction into Linear Algebra
Sympathy for the Devil, Demon, & Daemon
Book #i
THE Origin of Elan & Nale

[Crusher]

While they may be amiable enough in some cases, they are all selfish with the possible exception of Malack, whose unselfish goals were entirely unsympathetic.

Exactly. Malack had no personal interest in slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people. In fact, all things being equal he'd probably rather not. He's doing it for his *god*, so its ok.

[ChristianSt]

THE Origin of Elan & Nale
Since we had
50 - The Semi-Secret Origin of Elan & Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)
and
725 - The Significantly-More-Secret Origin of Tarquin and Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)

I would go with "The Absolute Origin of ..." (depending which is the more prominent character either "Nale & Tarquin" or "Tarquin & Nale")

[Heksefatter]

Exactly. Malack had no personal interest in slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people. In fact, all things being equal he'd probably rather not. He's doing it for his *god*, so its ok.

Just in case we are misunderstanding each other: No-one, least of all me, is saying that it is fine or sympathetic for Malack to kill countless of people for his god. I was just saying that Malack was arguably planning what he did out of loyalty to a cause, which isn't selfish, even if the cause is rotten.

[Anatares]

If we do get a Linear Guild prequel book, the only things I want to see are:

More Thog
Tarquin on the very last page whining that he's a minor character. "Someone will pay for this."
Maybe the exact conflict that had Nale leave Bleedingham permanently.

[Ghost Nappa]

I get it: Hilgya was very important for one of the main characters, and is still a lose piece of artistic resource, since she could be written into the story again.

But why do you all get so emotional around her? I mean, why want her back, why want her origin story (putting it side by side with Thog or Sabine, for instance)? It is a serious question, maybe I didn't see something that you guys've seen...

As for myself, I think that she was a one-dimensional character that served her purpose, and that had no other utility than popping Durkon's cherry.

Because she's not an evil opposite anymore.

Because we can now use her to compare what Durkon was as a dwarf with what he is as a Vampire-Dwarf through interaction with a person that did not develop the way it could have.

Their one-night stand could have developed into a full-blown relationship had Durkon not swung the hammer on that idea down hard. But they are far more compatible now then they were before and Hilgya would give Durkon more of a reason to be the foil to the group, which is important since Belkar is slowly drifting away from the role and because Durkon has both more power and influence among the Order than Belkar ever did. Basically, it's to emphasize the status quo shake-up of Durkon's vampirization in a clear-cut and open matter, with an existing character who fits into the role well and has rather good PR among the fans.