What can epic spell slots do?

[Torben Raibeart]

A little background: The GM has told me that he is fairly certain that we will reach epic by the end of the current campaign. In previous campaigns we have often gotten close (level 19-20), but never quite gotten there, so my knowledge of what you can do with epic spell slots (besides casting epic spells obviously) is limited.

Thing is, judging from previous campaigns I doubt I will be able to develope epic spells, either due to not having enough overshooting xp, not enough gold, or not enough time, as the ends of the campaigns tend to be a rush against time. I am fully aware that one can cheese out spellcraft 0 Epic Spells, but let us assume that I don't want to abuse the system in such a way.

The question then becomes "What can one do with an epic spellslot other than casting epic spells?". I used to think that one might prepare metamagiced spells in them, as I thought they were simply level 10 spell slots, but on closer reading I see that

Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.
which means that they might not be used for metamagiced spells, as they don't really have a level. They are however treated as 10th level for some things, so perhaps they can be filled with normal spells, perhaps not.

TL;DR: Does anyone have any advice on what epic spell slots can be used to other than epic spells? Help would be appreciated.

BONUS QUESTION:

Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.
But how do they interact with class features that grant more spells? Take f.ex. Master Specialist, which at some levels grant you a spell (of your specialization) that "can be of any level that you can cast". Could you use this to learn an epic spell for free, provided that you gain the class feature while at epic level and possessing the Epic Spellcasting feat?

[Khanjar]

If all you want to do is use metamagic on high level spells maybe you'd be more interested in Improved Spell Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity).

Epic magic does take some time to develop, so if you don't think you'll have time due to the nature of the campaign conclusions in the past, this could be a way to empower some 8th level spells, quicken some 6th level spells, etc.

[Torben Raibeart]

No no, I really want to have the epic spellcasting, even if I don't think I can use it straight away. But it bothers me that I might have spell slots that I can't fill with anything at all.

And besides, one of the other players will (unless I'm misunderstandig Epic Spellcasting) end up with no less than 6 Epic Slots, which it would be a shame if he could use to anything at all.

(He's a wizard/druid/arcane hierophant, and I've adviced him to max know:religion, know:arcana, know:nature and spellcraft in order to maximize tghe number of epic slots he gets.)

[Clistenes]

Well, for a start you can make your character untouchable giving it big permanent bonuses in every ability, skill, saves, SR, AC, Energy Resistance, Damage Reduction and attack. You can stack the bonuses making them circunstance, sacred, enhancement, competence, luck, resistance and all that.

You can also make yourself immune to many kinds of damage and spell effects.

But if you want something you can cast during your adventures, you can do this: Develop a contingent Epic Spell that, when you say a key word and point with your finger, or fart while in the presence of a deity or whatever, shoots a blast that does 1000 points of every kind of damage plus a few save or death effects, each with its own DC 100 save, caster level 100 vs Spell Resistance, range 100 miles.

You cast the spell, and you can't refresh you epic slot until you discharge it.

That's the reason I don't like Epic Spellcasting. The character who developed the best Epic Spell(s) gets an auto-win. You can face Nerull in battle and obliterate him snapping your fingers.

[Khanjar]

Just a side note, unless he can cast 9th level spells as all 3 classes he won't get epic slots for all of them. Unless you're gestalt I don't see that happening at L21.

But to briefly answer your question, you should fully read all the links on this page (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm).

In particular you might want to start with the middle column which has a list of epic spells, including what they take to develop in terms of gold, exp, etc. That should give you an idea of "reasonable" epic spells.

Where it really gets broken though is abusing the mitigating factors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm) (check out the table about 2/3rds down the page) to make a spell have earth-shattering effects and still keep the spellcraft DC within your abilities.

For example: Take the leadership feat, and get 100 or so L1 Wizards as your followers. Have them participate in a ritual and contribute a L1 spell slot to your spell to reduce the DC by 100. That gives you an awefully big budget to craft a powerful effect with the seeds (see the 3rd column on that overview page).

Really your imagination is the limit, since epic magic is level open ended with very few limits on what can be done. I'm sure there are people with more experience than myself with epic magic though. But just by way of another example, bulding on the above point of using 100 1st level wizards to help you; Use the Armor Seed to make a 24 hour Armor spell that gives you 50 armor (and it's force armor) with a DC of 0. And since development cost is multipied by Spellcraft DC the cost to develop this spell is 0gp, 0exp, and 1 day.

Really the sky's the limit.

edit: Forgot to account for the base spellcraft DC of 14 for the armor seed and base armor bonus of +4. So it's an all-day 47 force armor bonus with 100 L1 Wizards helping you cast it.

[Torben Raibeart]

That's the beauty! He doesn't need cleric, druid and wizard, just druid and wizard is enough.
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane spells? Check, can cast wizard spells (arcane).
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells? Check, can cast druid spells (divine).
Spellcraft 24 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 24 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level divine spells? Check, can cast druid spells (divine).

He just need divine spells at level 9 (he finish up with mystic theurge, so he would just manage level 9 spells in both wizard and druid at level 20) and the appropriate skills, there's no need for it to be cleric spells, as druid spells are divine spells.

But perhaps I'm unclear in my question (sorry if this is the case, english as second language and all):
Can you use epic spell slots to anything OTHER than epic spells?
I am well aware for the rules for making epic spells and how they work, but I am uncertain if you can do anything other than casting epic spells with them, as they don't have any fixed level, thereby making metamagic dubious. Sure, they count as 10th level spells "where spell level is important", but what does this mean (other than the fact that they get through globes of invunerability, how they react with spell reflection and such)?

*Can you use them to prepare spells other than epic spells?
*Can you burn them to fuel Arcane Strike or similar feats?
*How about with spells, like Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords?

In short, does epic spell slots have ANY use whatsoever aside from having epic spells stuffed into? Are there any point in having epic spellcastin if you don't know if you will be making epic spells anytime soon?

[Urpriest]

Can you use epic spell slots to anything OTHER than epic spells?


No. Epic Spell Slots are just things that store epic spells, they don't interact with the rest of the casting system. If your character doesn't have the money or time to develop epic spells, they won't take the feat.

[Phelix-Mu]

This is the obligatory warning to all (but especially the OP) that Epic Spellcasting can ruin epic levels even faster than epic levels ruin themselves.

Problems:
1.) Mitigation. Can't be used as written. The DM NEEDS HOUSERULES/HOMEBREW. Repeat: DON'T USE THE RAW. The RAW allows for Spellcraft DC 1 spells to be made for minimum money and in one day. THIS WILL DESTROY THE GAME.

2.) Mythal and Shadow seeds from Lost Empires of Faerun. DON'T USE THEM. omg, Mythals are so totally borked. Even with properly fixed mitigation, they grant potentially unlimited access to spells for potentially all creatures (or just approved ones) inside their huge radius. Want access to wish SLA at will for everyone in 300' radius? Bingo, got it.

Shadow is bad because you can make a copy of yourself that is 100% real, or just a really big dragon or somesuch. Making the copy permanent is the real problem; it gets very expensive without mitigation, but it's basically a spell that grants another party member. And, worse, you can even clone other people...like clone the BBEG, or Elminster, or Mordenkainen. Bad, kids, just bad.

3.) The published epic spells are generally too hard to get at level 21 (except for the very cheapest of them). So developing originals is called for, and is much more efficient. But mitigation as written is bad. DMs really need to be careful in allowing Epic Spellcasting as RAW anywhere near anyone that is any good at optimization.

I don't want to rain on your parade. Fun can be had with epic spells. But there is also a high likelihood that the game will implode under their awesome might if they are used to even a fraction of their full potential.

[Torben Raibeart]

That's what I suspected. Good to get second opinions that agree, even if it means that Epic Spellcasting means "Develope an epic spell or waste your feat".

I'm fully aware. But don't worry, I intend not to let epic spellcasting ruin the game, I want to try to use it "as intended", i.e. where you end up with spellcraft-dcs in the 40-50s. Mostly I want to see if I can make som sort of Epic Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, running with the theme I'm going for (If you see my character cast anything but a personal buff, it's probably a semi-real illusion).

But thanks for all help. Appreciate it :smallsmile: