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Morithias
2013-11-23, 10:39 AM
Okay, so we were playing a game where he's playing an incubus, however the incubus is min-maxed out like crazy, and after a chain of events he ends up at level 19.

The idea of the campaign is that an elder god is going to come into his world and he has to stop it, par for course.

Naturally I couldn't find the stats for the elder god I wanted to use, so I whip out the Call of Cthultu D20 books.

I look over his sheet and we do some math. He'll require some magical items from his artificer cohort, and Azathoth spell resistance is too high for him to hit him with his spell likes, so we start looking for ideas.

Now once you reach epic levels in my game a new rule enters. A natural 20 is equal to +30, and a natural 1 is equal to -10.

We do some math and....his AC is so high and his saves so high after the new items that Azathoth cannot hurt him.

Now we just have to figure out how to kill Azathoth. An amulet of mighty fists gets around the 55/+4 Dr, but the fast healing 200.

Well we punch in some more numbers, and yes...he can do more than 200 damage a round. Barely over, but he can do it.

So in translation, my friend just according to our calculations, killed a CR 50 monster solo, without spellcasting, and doing death of a thousand cuts with his claw attacks.

....Why the hell do people call Charisma a dump stat?!?

The sad part is, before I even pulled out the Cthulhu books, his plan was to go through the portal solo, and attempt to take on the Elder god.

His plan was to go into the far realm, and kill the elder god solo, chuck norris style, BEFORE we did the math to see if it was possible.

Literally the stupidest action ever. Going solo into the far realms to fight Azathoth single-handed....ended up being the smart thing to do.

An action that would end in a TPK and a darwin award under ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE....

I just...I cannot believe this. He just killed a monster 31 CR higher than his PC.

And I didn't even have to roll the die. He cannot lose, unless i'm seriously missing something. Sure you could argue the alter reality power or something, but come on, the guy has an intelligence score of 3.

So...now to our question.

What's the experience points for a CR 50 monster in Pathfinder?

Edit: This probably should be in 3.5 Sorry. Can I get this moved?

BWR
2013-11-23, 11:08 AM
Mixing CoC d20 and Pathfinder. Two VERY different power levels. CR calculations are always a bit off, but in this case they are very off. They might work if based off CoCd20 levels, in which case 50 is quite reasonable. By PF standards, Azathoth isn't that impressive, not enough to warrent a CR 50.


Also, it seems like you didn't do any real prep for this encounter. Azathoth doesn't have access to tons of PF feats and abilities that would be useful, DR should be /Epic in PF, not /+4. Not giving A gear. Sure, the idea of a mindless gibbering entity have actual magic items sounds ridiculous, but just take it as guidelines that he has some extra powers that function about like magic items.
Not allowing A to do anything before the PC shows up. Is he just standing there, taking damage? If the PC is barely doing more than 200 damage a round, it should take about 2000 rounds for A to die. This should give A many nat 20s to hit the PC. Is he immune to Intelligence drain? Are there absolutely no spells of 9th level or lower that could inconvenience him?

Morithias
2013-11-23, 11:12 AM
Not allowing A to do anything before the PC shows up.

2. Is he just standing there, taking damage? If the PC is barely doing more than 200 damage a round, it should take about 2000 rounds for A to die This should give A many nat 20s to hit the PC.

3. Is he immune to Intelligence drain?

4. Are there absolutely no spells of 9th level or lower that could inconvenience him?

1. The PC is literally doing the stupidest action possible. I have no clue how anyone, especially a mindless god is going to see this coming.

2. Like I said, house rule, natural 20 = +30, and his AC is so high Azathoth can't hit him.

3. The intelligence drain requires him to hit with a slam attack. Even on a natural 30, Azathoth cannot hit him.

4. Unless you can find me a spell that has no attack roll, no save, no ANYTHING. Yes. I cannot think of a single one. Even on a -10 roll, the PC's saves are so high he makes his throw.

Rhynn
2013-11-23, 11:17 AM
Mixing CoC d20 and Pathfinder. Two VERY different power levels.

CoC d20 does not have CoC d20 stats for the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones; it has D&D 3E (not 3.5) stats for them, explicitly. (There's instructions for converting them into CoC d20, but you're also told they're not needed.)

However, they have the same problems as all epic creatures in D&D 3.X: pathetic optimization.

I am curious, though, how the PC got touch AC over 105 and/or mitigated the 42d12 damage from Squamous Blast (which is a ranged touch attack)? And why didn't Azathoth use Alter Reality? There's plenty of ways to attack without targeting AC or saves if you can use any spell up to 9th level at will as a move action (the standard action can go to Squamous Blast).

Also, there's countless spells that only have their effects halved by a successful save, unless the PC had Evasion and equivalents for Fort and Will.

Edit: teleport away, use Remote Sensing to keep tabs on the PC, use buffs to increase Dex, attack rolls, etc., teleport again to within 24 miles, start using Squamous Blast with true strike, gate in help...

Morithias
2013-11-23, 11:20 AM
I am curious, though, how the PC got touch AC over 105 and/or mitigated the 42d12 damage from Squamous Blast (which is a ranged touch attack)? And why didn't Azathoth use Alter Reality? There's plenty of ways to attack without targeting AC or saves if you can use any spell up to 9th level at will as a move action (the standard action can go to Squamous Blast).


His charisma is in the high 70's and he has both deflection and battledancer levels, along with a ton of other stuff.

Kerim
2013-11-23, 11:29 AM
*low hundreds. On a good day, at least.

Morithias
2013-11-23, 11:34 AM
*low hundreds. On a good day, at least.

Oh yeah I forgot the rod of repression and all that stuff too.

Madwand99
2013-11-23, 11:59 AM
If Azathoth has Alter Reality, the incubus doesn't have a chance. There are SO MANY ways Azathoth could defeat him, possibly hundreds just in the PHB alone. First of all... Azathoth is never going to die. If he gets below half hit points, he'll teleport away to heal, then come back later (if he feels like it). Or, he could cast Mass Heal on himself as often as necessary (can the Incubus do more than 450 damage/round?).

As for spells... just start looking through the PHB and Spell Compendium. Azathoth gets ALL of these spells to choose from. Many, many of these would be effective on your incubus. Plenty of spells do half damage on a save, or put up a shield (fire, acid, sonic, you name it) that damages an attacker on a strike. Just use some of them!

BWR
2013-11-23, 12:04 PM
1. The PC is literally doing the stupidest action possible. I have no clue how anyone, especially a mindless god is going to see this coming.

2. Like I said, house rule, natural 20 = +30, and his AC is so high Azathoth can't hit him.

3. The intelligence drain requires him to hit with a slam attack. Even on a natural 30, Azathoth cannot hit him.

4. Unless you can find me a spell that has no attack roll, no save, no ANYTHING. Yes. I cannot think of a single one. Even on a -10 roll, the PC's saves are so high he makes his throw.

Honestly, you brought this on yourself.
Get rid of the house rule about nat 20/1s.
Also, allowing your player to optimize that absurdly, if you don't do it yourself, is guarenteeing that nothing you pull out of official supplements will have any chance.
What the hell is the point of the Alter Reality power if you are going to argue A is too stupid to use it? Call it instinct, but let A use it's abilities.

Is the PCs Will save bonus greater than 68? If not: everybody's favorite: targeted Mordenkainen's Mage's Disjunction. With a 1000+ rounds, the PC will fail a few STs and start losing magic items.
You can probably increase the DC with a few items and feat changes.

Allow Alter Reality to bring in spells from other books. Does the PC have immunity to mind affecting effects or being staggered? If not - Overwhelming Presence. Even on a successful save he's staggered.
Waves of Exhaustion - no ST and make the PC.

Why is Azathoth standing still? Even if he's not the brightest creature, why not just teleport somewhere else?
Alter Reality to Gate in something that can help. Gate in swarms of lesser monsters to annoy the PC. Since the lesser monsters are not epic, they are by your own words immune to the nat 20/1 house rule - death by papercuts in return.

Allow A's caster level to equal his HD.
Use AR -> Gate to gate in another Mythos monster. Shub-Niggurath's Life and Death is auto-kill, no ST.

Maze has no ST. Every time the PC shows up, he's put on ice for a while. Allow A buff time - let him throw every damn buff spell on himself. If that and 5x normal treasure (do you have any idea how much gold that would end up being?) isn't enough to buff him up to start hitting the PC, you are doing something wrong.
If nothing else, just use AR to Magic Missile the guy to death. He should have enough time to do it with 1000+ rounds.


Battledancer? I thought this was Pathfinder. If you are allowing stuff from other books and earlier editions, and just use Alter Reality to Ice Assassin the PC. Let him fight himself.

Actually, I'd like to see the stats of this PC. It's a lot easier to give advice if we know the specifics.

Faily
2013-11-23, 01:11 PM
Battle Dancer gets Improved Evasion (but not Evasion? lol), but no Mettle or other Fortitude&Will-related bonuses. There are plenty of spells to choose from in 3.5/Pathfinder that will still mess you up even if you succeed on your Fortitude or Will save for a short while. Unless the PC is immune to fatigue, stun, daze, exhaustion, negative energy, ability damage/drain, dazzled, shaken, paralyze, sickened, nauseated... you get the idea.

If the PC is not Epic level, from what I can tell with your House Rule, he would still be getting natural 1's on his Save and thus fail his saving throws. So in a battle that is lasting 1000+ rounds, 5% of those saves are an auto-failure... that is at least 50 failed saving throws. And that is being conservative. A natural 1 is still a failure, even if all your saves are at 100. There's a Divine Ability that lets you treat a Natural 1 as simply just a 1, and not an automatic failure (Deities & Demigods).

Is Azathoth alone? NPCs, contrary to popular belief of many PCs, do not exist in a stasis until the PCs come along. What is going on around him? Are his allies there?

Also, even with an Intelligence of 3, even an animal got enough instinct to think "I'm hurt. Get away!", and then follow the route of getting away to the best of their ability. Azathoth is smart enough to use his abilities, otherwise he wouldn't have them.

With a treasure of 5 x Standard, he is bound to have some magic items on himself. Just because he's a monstrous elder god doesn't mean he can't have some magic rings, a belt, a cloak or a pair of boots somewhere on an appendage (that might be inside his body, because hey, elder gods are weird).

All in all, it would seem you are very much underestimating the abilities of Azathoth, dice statistics, and the amount of ridinculous spells you can pull off with Alter Reality that won't give a flying squirrel about good-saves.

Also, yes, it might give a different perspective to know more about this PC, other than that he's a Battle Dancer.

Morithias
2013-11-23, 01:12 PM
I don't want fricken advice. I'm going to let him win because 1. It was suppose to be D’endrrah, but she's not stated.

And two. IT'S FRICKEN AWESOME.

and three. If I don't know of these spells, what the hell is the chance that a 3 intelligence creature knows of them. In canon isn't he suppose to be mindless?

And even so

Even if he couldn't beat Azathoth. I KNOW he could beat D’endrrah.

Vanitas
2013-11-23, 01:14 PM
All I understand from the OP is "Houserules change game expectations."
That's not impossible.
That's default.

Morithias
2013-11-23, 01:16 PM
Houserule changes game expectations.
That's not impossible.
That's default.

Impossible is metaphor for how over the top it was. Obviously if he did it it was not impossible.

Faily
2013-11-23, 01:18 PM
And I didn't even have to roll the die. He cannot lose, unless i'm seriously missing something.

Posters have mentioned what you missed. And pointed out that there is no auto-victory.

IMO, it seems like you're giving out a hollow victory since you've already decided that they would win, with no dice or danger.



All I understand from the OP is "Houserules change game expectations."
That's not impossible.
That's default.

Well said. :) Didn't see it at first.

Vanitas
2013-11-23, 01:21 PM
This Azatoth sounds incredibly weak and dumb, btw.
Why can't he
1) Run away
2) Dispel magic
3) Get enough critters/buffs so he can fight
4) Use blasphemy

Morithias
2013-11-23, 01:21 PM
Posters have mentioned what you missed. And pointed out that there is no auto-victory.

IMO, it seems like you're giving out a hollow victory since you've already decided that they would win, with no dice or danger.

So if a pit fiend goes up against a commoner, the DM should actually play the fight out?

Again, at this point we're just screwing around, and maybe I'm not that great of DM.

Besides...I'm sure Kerim could out do me anyway. The last fight he got into before the god, I had to break the rules for rule of drama, to make it a fight, and he STILL won after I cheated.

BWR
2013-11-23, 01:26 PM
Sure, Azathoth is pretty stupid but what's the point of having "all spells at will" if you don't allow him to use it? Don't think of it as using intelligence, think of it instinct. He wants to go someplace, he warps reality to go there (Gt. Teleport).
He's hurting, he makes himself whole again (Heal). Something is annoying him and he can't crush it physically, he wiggles reality a bit until said problem is not annoying him (Wish or Miracle, or trying out several spells until he finds one that works).

Basically, you threw the battle. You pulled a creature out of a book, did not prepare for the encounter at all, didn't bother to look for ways to win apart from base stats and refused to consider using its most useful ability which would have allowed Azathoth to win.
This is no victory, this is just a pointless piece of PC wanking.

Vanitas
2013-11-23, 01:30 PM
Sure, Azathoth is pretty stupid but what's the point of having "all spells at will" if you don't allow him to use it? Don't think of it as using intelligence, think of it instinct. He wants to go someplace, he warps reality to go there (Gt. Teleport).
He's hurting, he makes himself whole again (Heal). Something is annoying him and he can't crush it physically, he wiggles reality a bit until said problem is not annoying him (Wish or Miracle, or trying out several spells until he finds one that works).

Basically, you threw the battle. You pulled a creature out of a book, did not prepare for the encounter at all, didn't bother to look for ways to win apart from base stats and refused to consider using its most useful ability which would have allowed Azathoth to win.
This is no victory, this is just a pointless piece of PC wanking.
Quoted for truth.

Morithias
2013-11-23, 01:32 PM
Basically, you threw the battle. You pulled a creature out of a book, did not prepare for the encounter at all, didn't bother to look for ways to win apart from base stats and refused to consider using its most useful ability which would have allowed Azathoth to win.
This is no victory, this is just a pointless piece of PC wanking.

Considering I run a game for this friend almost daily. I have little to no time to actually prepare. I am literally writing by the seat of my pants, and if I can't improv fast enough, that's my fault.

The point is, I need experience values for a creature of that magnitude. I have an idea, but I need to put a number to it, before I can put it into motion.

Faily
2013-11-23, 01:32 PM
Again, at this point we're just screwing around

I'm not really getting what your purpose of all this is then. Screwing around with optimizing is all well and good, but everyone can power-up a character to defeat an enemy on the Epic-level if they take for granted that those who have become so powerful to be as gods do not take use of those abilities that have made them into such powerful beings and kept them as such for a long time.

In your OP, you say, as I quoted above "he can't lose, unless I missed something", to which I and others have pointed out that you missed some things. Such as the PC still being subject to automatic fails on 1 approximataly 5% of the time as he's not Epic, as per your House Rule. Azathoth has Alter Reality, and Intelligence 3... not 1 or just -, but 3.
"An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of human-like intelligence has a score of at least 3." <- Player's Handbook 3.5. Intelligence 3 is hardly clever (even Thog would be smarter), but he knows what he is capable of, and even animals have the instincts to fight back with what they got or flee to their best ability.
In D&D, a Rast has an Intelligence 3 as well, but it can still use it's Supernatural attacks. Alter Reality is also a Supernatural Ability. To use Gate, it could be as simple as "me hurt, me want friend/help!". Sure, I will agree that Azathoth is not the kind that will plot and have contingencies for his contengiences, but even he can think "me hurt you now!" and Alter Reality an Energy Drain (or whatever else you want).

Morithias
2013-11-23, 01:35 PM
Look just give me the experience values for a level 50 creature, so I can crunch some numbers. I don't care at this point and neither does he.

Not to mention the PC also has alter reality at this point in the game.

Kerim
2013-11-23, 01:51 PM
Also, if the creature tries to directly alter him with a wish or alter reality, he'll have to get past his insane saves.

But yeah, we are basically screwing around, and doing some 'PC-wanking' so to speak, although, of course, there's still roleplay.

Basically, most of his stats top those of the elder god, and due to the rules we're using which make it so that at a certain point epic level warriors will no longer hit level 1 commoners, it means that it's rather unlikely that he'll win, especially considering he's also got 25 Regeneration of his own, which means that even things such as Apocalypse from the Sky, should it get past his spell resistance, will not do all too lasting damage.

So yes, if you put together the general stats and abilities of the two, and the intelligence of the two, it's very much possible that my character would win such a battle. I mean, I'm not planning to go after the guy, he's never done anything against me, but yes, he could kick the ass of most of the general gods.

Mainly because, while charisma doesn't look powerful, it means that it's got a lot of boosts, and a lot of ways to apply it to different stuff than it was meant for.

Vanitas
2013-11-23, 01:59 PM
Also, if the creature tries to directly alter him with a wish or alter reality, he'll have to get past his insane saves.

But yeah, we are basically screwing around, and doing some 'PC-wanking' so to speak, although, of course, there's still roleplay.

Basically, most of his stats top those of the elder god, and due to the rules we're using which make it so that at a certain point epic level warriors will no longer hit level 1 commoners, it means that it's rather unlikely that he'll win, especially considering he's also got 25 Regeneration of his own, which means that even things such as Apocalypse from the Sky, should it get past his spell resistance, will not do all too lasting damage.

So yes, if you put together the general stats and abilities of the two, and the intelligence of the two, it's very much possible that my character would win such a battle. I mean, I'm not planning to go after the guy, he's never done anything against me, but yes, he could kick the ass of most of the general gods.

Mainly because, while charisma doesn't look powerful, it means that it's got a lot of boosts, and a lot of ways to apply it to different stuff than it was meant for.

Blasphemy/Holy Word still kills him. No attack roll, no save, no spell resistance, just death.
Thanks to inccubus' evil subtype, he's vulnerable to Holy Word even if he is good aligned.
Alternate Reality -> Holy Word -> gg

Lord Raziere
2013-11-23, 01:59 PM
Ok, I think I'll try giving you the exp, Morithias.

ok what I've looked up, says that basically the exp reward would be double the exp reward of a cr 48 monster. which would be double of Cr 46, which would be double of Cr4 and so on.

so!

I'm going to start with the exp reward for a level 19 killing a level 20, then double it thirty times, or, basically, multiply it by 60, because 2 x 30 = 60

8550 x 60 = 513000

keep in mind this was gotten using this page (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_DMG_XPFinal.asp)
so it might not be accurate to 3.5.

I'll have to hunt for more sources of info on that...

Vanitas
2013-11-23, 02:03 PM
Ok, I think I'll try giving you the exp, Morithias.

ok what I've looked up, says that basically the exp reward would be double the exp reward of a cr 48 monster. which would be double of Cr 46, which would be double of Cr4 and so on.

so!

I'm going to start with the exp reward for a level 19 killing a level 20, then double it thirty times, or, basically, multiply it by 60, because 2 x 30 = 60

8550 x 60 = 513000

keep in mind this was gotten using this page (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_DMG_XPFinal.asp)
so it might not be accurate to 3.5.

I'll have to hunt for more sources of info on that...

Btw, Deities & Demigods has some specific rules regarding deities and XP. It's basically "gain a level even if you're around them".

Morithias
2013-11-23, 02:06 PM
Ok, I think I'll try giving you the exp, Morithias.

ok what I've looked up, says that basically the exp reward would be double the exp reward of a cr 48 monster. which would be double of Cr 46, which would be double of Cr4 and so on.

so!

I'm going to start with the exp reward for a level 19 killing a level 20, then double it thirty times, or, basically, multiply it by 60, because 2 x 30 = 60

8550 x 60 = 513000

keep in mind this was gotten using this page (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/DnD_DMG_XPFinal.asp)
so it might not be accurate to 3.5.

I'll have to hunt for more sources of info on that...

Wouldn't doubled 30 times be 8550 * 2 ^ 30?

Lord Raziere
2013-11-23, 02:08 PM
*shrug* who cares? he is probably getting enough levels that it doesn't matter at this point.

ok, I've looked up another page (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Level-Independent_XP_Awards) that is more obviously 3.5, but with similar math:

310,000 x 60 = 186,000,00 exp.

now thats a lot! I think this will serve you well.

Edit: frack! your right.

unfortunately my calculator doesn't have the powers *sweatdrop*

lesse....2^30 power.... would be 1073741824! thank you google!

so 8550 x 1073741824 = 9.1804926e+12!

and 310,000 x 1073741824 = 3.3285997e+14!

basically your experience points are in exponential notation. I think that means he wins the game.

Morithias
2013-11-23, 02:16 PM
Yeah the numbers are too high for me to do what I was planning. I will have to improvise again. God dammit.

Hamste
2013-11-23, 02:21 PM
Actually they get no exp...if you kill a creature more than 8 CR above you it is assumed to be a fluke (or that someone made a mistake) by the D&D rules in the DMG. Missed this is Pathfinder, they probably have a similar rule somewhere though

hymer
2013-11-23, 02:23 PM
Is PF without the rule that you can't get more XP in one helping than would allow you to go to one XP short of going up two levels?


Actually they get no exp...if you kill a creature more than 8 CR above you it is assumed to be a fluke (or that someone made a mistake) by the D&D rules in the DMG. Missed this is Pathfinder, they probably have a similar rule somewhere though

In my DMG it says that the DM in such cases need to think carefully (due to something weird going on) rather than take the number off a table.

Morithias
2013-11-23, 02:27 PM
Actually they get no exp...if you kill a creature more than 8 CR above you it is assumed to be a fluke (or that someone made a mistake) by the D&D rules in the DMG. Missed this is Pathfinder, they probably have a similar rule somewhere though

Tell that to Tippy.

Kerim
2013-11-23, 02:34 PM
Or to anyone who ever used Shivering Touch on a dragon.

endoperez
2013-11-23, 03:36 PM
This is a really cool story. This would fit very well in any thread about amazing feats your players have done, and so on. The problem is you made this thread in format that claims the player did something impossible, and talk about rules.

People rarely disagree about what you find cool.

People often disagree about what's impossible and about rules.

You brought this on to yourself, I'm sorry to say. It's still a cool story.

BWR
2013-11-23, 04:16 PM
Tell that to Tippy.

What does that have to do with anything?
Step 1 Someone else is good at exploiting the rules
Step 2: ???
Step 3: profit!

You've already indicated that you have little desire to follow the rules. Just give the PC a 'congratulations, you won the game' sticker and be done with it. If you can't and/or (far more seriously) won't play Azathoth to win, then I don't really think there is anything left to challenge this PC.

tyckspoon
2013-11-23, 04:39 PM
4. Unless you can find me a spell that has no attack roll, no save, no ANYTHING. Yes. I cannot think of a single one. Even on a -10 roll, the PC's saves are so high he makes his throw.

Hail of Stone, Spell Compendium edition. It's kind of a cruddy spell; maxes at 5d4 damage, has a 1 Round cast time, even requires a costly material component. BUT.. it's pretty much unblockable. It has no save, no Spell Resistance, and it's not targeted, so Spell Turning and Spellblades and similar things don't stop it. It's not energy damage or weapon damage; Energy Resistance and Damage Reduction do not apply. If you are in the area of this spell, you are taking damage. There's no defense short of being unkillable by HP damage or being completely immune to a spell in a fashion that is not based on Spell Resistance (the 'as infinite Spell Resistance' abilities will not work, because SR: No.)

Have your god-like outer being replicate a Rapidspell Maximized Enhanced Hail of Stone (adjusted spell level 9th, 60 essentially unavoidable damage per cast) at whatever is bothering it until the problem goes away.

At least, since you were porting in something from Cthulhu d20, I assume you have no problem with using non-Pathfinder material. I don't know if there is a spell with those properties in Pathfinder-only sources.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-23, 05:48 PM
Actually they get no exp...if you kill a creature more than 8 CR above you it is assumed to be a fluke (or that someone made a mistake) by the D&D rules in the DMG. Missed this is Pathfinder, they probably have a similar rule somewhere though

um....what does it matter if it's a fluke, a kill is a kill and if someone managed to beat something much higher CR than they should normally fight they deserve a reward even if it IS by luck. I don't get why the reaction in this thread is mostly "you're just bragging about your friend go away", IT'S NOT YOUR GAME if this is how they want to play their game then it's how they're going to play their game, stop giving insults and claims that they should stop cause they don't do things your way and give the info that's asked for. (only the fluke part was directed at hamste by the way).

...especially considering instead of just giving the xp value everyone seems to be throwing out ways to spite the player out of a win.

BWR
2013-11-23, 06:14 PM
um....what does it matter if it's a fluke, a kill is a kill and if someone managed to beat something much higher CR than they should normally fight they deserve a reward even if it IS by luck. I don't get why the reaction in this thread is mostly "you're just bragging about your friend go away", IT'S NOT YOUR GAME if this is how they want to play their game then it's how they're going to play their game, stop giving insults and claims that they should stop cause they don't do things your way and give the info that's asked for. (only the fluke part was directed at hamste by the way).

...especially considering instead of just giving the xp value everyone seems to be throwing out ways to spite the player out of a win.

Because it isn't a fluke. The PC was optimized. Azathoth was pulled out of a book, given no prep time and had his most useful ability, the one that would have allowed him to win, removed. That's basically just using cheat codes to 'win'. Since we thought at first this was a 'please help me' thread we tried to help. Then we were told that the PC won because, and that the impossible win, which really did turn out to be impossible, should be rewarded.

I'm sure every DM here has overlooked an ability, misread something, forgotten a useful item, just had a brainfart so an otherwise powerful foe has gone down like a chump and decided to run with it. I know I have. That's not the issue. The issue is pretending that this is something awesome, especially when the foe was not only not prepared or played well (which would be forgivable) but apparantly intentionally neutered and played poorly to allow the PC to win.
And that this is something to brag about.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-23, 06:21 PM
Because it isn't a fluke. The PC was optimized. Azathoth was pulled out of a book, given no prep time and had his most useful ability, the one that would have allowed him to win, removed. That's basically just using cheat codes to 'win'. Since we thought at first this was a 'please help me' thread we tried to help. Then we were told that the PC won because, and that the impossible win, which really did turn out to be impossible, should be rewarded.

I'm sure every DM here has overlooked an ability, misread something, forgotten a useful item, just had a brainfart so an otherwise powerful foe has gone down like a chump and decided to run with it. I know I have. That's not the issue. The issue is pretending that this is something awesome, especially when the foe was not only not prepared or played well (which would be forgivable) but apparantly intentionally neutered and played poorly to allow the PC to win.
And that this is something to brag about.

so the complaints against giving a simple bit of information are "you're bragging about your friend because you accidentally did something all of us have done, that means you intentionally went out of your way to let them win and as a DM you're not allowed to do that because reasons". this isn't about your personal views of some DM honor code as there isn't any such thing, it's how each DM chooses to play out their game and how each player chooses to play out their character. if you're really so outraged that this isn't a request for information on how to make their player hate life for trying or a request for revenge over some forgotten mechanic I'm curious how it would be viewed if someone were to say "games are supposed to be fun" here...

Frelus
2013-11-23, 07:29 PM
No, it basically boils down to this:
Someone asks "What can my Uber diety do to win a battle vs a PC?".
He is basically given 3 ways to defeat him without any chance of failure, and then admits to willingly not using even one of those while still fanboying over the PC's victory.
And to the "too dumb to use its ability" part:
What do you think "At Will" means?
The only thing needed for it to manifest is intent, wether intelligent or from instincts.
Even if you take Azathoth as being too "dumb" to use it intelligently, the least you could do is take some powerful effects and roll to randomly determine which one is cast.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-23, 07:44 PM
No, it basically boils down to this:
Someone asks "What can my Uber diety do to win a battle vs a PC?".
He is basically given 3 ways to defeat him without any chance of failure, and then admits to willingly not using even one of those while still fanboying over the PC's victory.
And to the "too dumb to use its ability" part:
What do you think "At Will" means?
The only thing needed for it to manifest is intent, wether intelligent or from instincts.
Even if you take Azathoth as being too "dumb" to use it intelligently, the least you could do is take some powerful effects and roll to randomly determine which one is cast.

I'm curious why I bother debating topics like this when it's clear that the only answer people will accept is "yes, I agree that your personal views on what need to happen apply to each and every person and will gladly join you in this witch-hunt".

PS: they didn't ask for advice and their second post even stated they don't want it, they simply wanted to know the xp it gave.

Arbane
2013-11-24, 04:52 AM
So if a pit fiend goes up against a commoner, the DM should actually play the fight out?


Why not? It shouldn't take more than one round, anyway.

Zrak
2013-11-24, 05:09 AM
Plus, I mean, what kind of commoner are we talking, here? If he's chicken-infested, we might have a fight on our hands.

Vanitas
2013-11-24, 05:22 AM
Is PF without the rule that you can't get more XP in one helping than would allow you to go to one XP short of going up two levels?

No.

Also, Holy Word.

Zrak
2013-11-24, 05:42 AM
Doesn't holy word allow spell resistance? In Pathfinder, I think it even allows a save.

Really, though, I don't see what's particularly "stupid" or "ballsy" about walking in on an elder god without knowing its stats when, functionally, the character cannot be harmed under the given house-rules.

Vanitas
2013-11-24, 05:50 AM
Doesn't holy word allow spell resistance? In Pathfinder, I think it even allows a save.
Wow, I feel ashamed now. It does indeed allow SR.

Zrak
2013-11-24, 06:08 AM
Hey, I forgot didn't forget to italicize the spell name in my post. I never do have never done that. We all make mistakes. Man, I'm great.

Kerim
2013-11-24, 06:10 AM
Well, if it maxes out at 5d4, it doesn't matter, because he automatically regains 27 hp per round, I believe.

Anyways, we didn't know he was quite that powerful at that point. As was mentioned before, he was created mostly by accident, basically by virtue of 'I want a cha-based character, how powerful can I make him?'

Also, Holy Word isn't possible. Azatoth is a CE creature, which means that he can't cast said spell. And Blasphemy doesn't work on him, since he's an evil creature himself.

I still say it would perhaps not be a direct victory, but still a more than reasonable chance that he would win, especially since Azatoth would have no reason to think someone would be capable of beating him, and thus would have no reason to prepare himself more than normal.

And Azatoth can only cast spells out of the Player's handbook, as per his statblock, so Hail of Stone wouldn't work.


Anyways, we decided to just retire him, he would be too powerful to properly continue the campaign with. Thank you for the people who did take the time to try and figure out the XP total. (Jesus christ that's a lot), and BWR, Monochrome Tiger: Yeah, you had the right idea. The thread was partly a question for how large the amount of XP that'd be, and a bit of bragging about how goshdarn powerful this character got in the end.

Khatoblepas
2013-11-24, 06:56 AM
This victory is impossible, as Azathoth never works alone.

You'd have to deal with the Mad Pipers that constantly surround him and keep him calm.

Oh, and Nyarlathotep:


Nyarlathotep enacts the will of the Outer Gods, and is their messenger, heart and soul; he is also a servant of Azathoth, his father, whose wishes he immediately fulfills.

Azathoth probably wishes to not die, Nyarlathotep teleports in and Alter Realitys the player's character into something with 1 Cha, no save. He then does whatever to the player character for the rest of eternity.

They're not gonna just sit back and let you kill their dad.

paddyfool
2013-11-24, 07:17 AM
Have your god-like outer being replicate a Rapidspell Maximized Enhanced Hail of Stone (adjusted spell level 9th, 60 essentially unavoidable damage per cast) at whatever is bothering it until the problem goes away.


Giving a new definition to "rocks fall, everybody dies" :)

Vanitas
2013-11-24, 08:59 AM
Well, if it maxes out at 5d4, it doesn't matter, because he automatically regains 27 hp per round, I believe.
Metamagics are the answer.



Also, Holy Word isn't possible. Azatoth is a CE creature, which means that he can't cast said spell. And Blasphemy doesn't work on him, since he's an evil creature himself.
Alter Reality does not care about your alignment.


And Azatoth can only cast spells out of the Player's handbook, as per his statblock, so Hail of Stone wouldn't work.
Alter Reality, again.



The thread was partly a question for how large the amount of XP that'd be, and a bit of bragging about how goshdarn powerful this character got in the end.
The XP total doesn't really matter, considering any character can only gain one level at a time. It would end up with the amount of experience needed for the next level -1.

Unless you have even more houserules here, of course.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 09:03 AM
Metamagics are the answer.


Alter Reality does not care about your alignment.


Alter Reality, again.



The XP total doesn't really matter, considering any character can only gain one level at a time. It would end up with the amount of experience needed for the next level -1.

Unless you have even more houserules here, of course.

Can I just point out that at this point in time the PC ALSO had the alter reality ability?

Brookshw
2013-11-24, 09:52 AM
Can I just point out that at this point in time the PC ALSO had the alter reality ability?

which would have done nothing to protect against holy word.

But really guys there's no reason to come into the thread just to tell morthias and kerim that what they've done is wrong. If that's how they want to play then that's fine. The only measuring stick that matters is if they're having a good time.

Sidmen
2013-11-24, 10:30 AM
PS: they didn't ask for advice and their second post even stated they don't want it, they simply wanted to know the xp it gave.
To be fair, when I read the first post, I also read it as "this doesn't seem right, what did I do wrong?" I found it completely appropriate for people to point out tactics and powers that weren't used appropriately in the encounter.

The OP got his answer (several, actually) on how much XP could/should be earned from the fight, so the rest of the thread is different people talking about possible ways to kill the OP's player.

Vanitas
2013-11-24, 12:32 PM
which would have done nothing to protect against holy word.

But really guys there's no reason to come into the thread just to tell morthias and kerim that what they've done is wrong. If that's how they want to play then that's fine. The only measuring stick that matters is if they're having a good time.

You are right. I apologize for my behaviour.

Zrak
2013-11-24, 01:39 PM
Can I just point out that at this point in time the PC ALSO had the alter reality ability?

How did the PC get alter reality? Through a divine rank?

Kerim
2013-11-24, 02:46 PM
Yeah, basically, he kicked the ass of a Demon Lord and got his abilities, including a 1/minute Alter Reality:

Alter Reality (Sp): Malcanthet has the ability to advance her portfolio. This is considered identical to the wish spell, but may only be used to produce effects appropriate to Malcanthet's portfolio or goals. Malcanthet may only use this ability once per minute.

(Using the stat-block provided: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Malcanthet_(3.5e_Monster) there)

He did it honestly, too. Well... sort of. Silence+Invisibility+Sleight of Hand=Stolen Bloodmare Stone=Quite weakened Malcanthet.

Faced by the threat of truly being killed, she handed over a fair bunch of her powers.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 03:01 PM
Faced by the threat of truly being killed, she handed over a fair bunch of her powers.

Including gating in an epic monster higher CR than she was.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 03:11 PM
Also can I just point out I hate the hypocracy of this forum? They'll all about min-maxing but the moment a DM makes a mistake or something in their view it's the worst thing ever.

Funny thing is, whenever you do play a villain that fights to their full potential they'll just whine and complain. You start them out with a dungeon, but having the big-bad decide letting them level so they actually can fight is the dumb thing for him to do, so he teleports in, kills the party a dozen levels lower than him, slaps a monsterous thrall on the only female member and adds her to his harem.

Oh no, suddenly playing the genre savvy villain to his full potent is bad because the PCs lost.

It reeks of tall poppy syndrome.

hymer
2013-11-24, 03:19 PM
Also can I just point out I hate the hypocracy of this forum? They'll all about min-maxing but the moment a DM makes a mistake or something in their view it's the worst thing ever.

Funny thing is, whenever you do play a villain that fights to their full potential they'll just whine and complain. You start them out with a dungeon, but having the big-bad decide letting them level so they actually can fight is the dumb thing for him to do, so he teleports in, kills the party a dozen levels lower than him, slaps a monsterous thrall on the only female member and adds her to his harem.

Oh no, suddenly playing the genre savvy villain to his full potent is bad because the PCs lost.

It reeks of tall poppy syndrome.

Aw, come one. That's hardly fair. I'm part of this forum, and I've said no such things.
I think a lot of the posters in this thread misunderstood the thread's intention. They were offering help, or so they thought, and it looks a lot harsher than it was meant. I implore you to chalk at least part of it up to the difficulty in communicating online rather than face to face.

Lord Raziere
2013-11-24, 03:24 PM
Yea, I try to be direct and honest as I can with people and I still get miscommunications. its really annoying.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 03:26 PM
Aw, come one. That's hardly fair. I'm part of this forum, and I've said no such things.
I think a lot of the posters in this thread misunderstood the thread's intention. They were offering help, or so they thought, and it looks a lot harsher than it was meant. I implore you to chalk at least part of it up to the difficulty in communicating online rather than face to face.

And I'm not joking about that big bad teleporting in thing. I did it once, and I went into great detail about how the female PC was now a sex slave.

And no, this was not a "they come back from the dead" campaign. The campaign was over, and a I wrote an epilogue about how the world was conquered and enslaved.

To sum it up.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b351/Jeff_H01/Screenshots/X-Com/UFO%20Defence/Screenshot_505.jpg

Needless to say that party never complained about my sub-par tactics again.

Hell at least the Elder god has a justification with the 3-intelligence thing.

You know what the justification is for the big bad teleport?

He has every one of his factories under contract scry. The instant one is taken down, either he or one of his elites teleports in and kills the PCs assuming they think they can take them judging by the footage.

Yeah, a BIG BAD who does scry and die.

I play by rule of cool, rule of drama, and rule of fun. If I want him to beat up an elder god, I'll let him. Hell I am literally running a campaign on this very forum, that revolves around the idea that the enemies are going to be a joke by the end of the game, and they'll have magical futuristic technology, combined with enemies that use sub-par tactics on purpose to mimic old videogame AI. That's going to end fighting an Elder Evil.

I do not care about whether or not I could have beat him, as far as I'm concerned the fact he was able to get his Ac, and Saves high enough and damage to beat his fast healing is good enough. It was awesome enough for me to allow.

Not to mention we ended the campaign afterwards with an ending anyway. Onto fluxx!

Rhynn
2013-11-24, 03:38 PM
Also can I just point out I hate the hypocracy of this forum?

This complaint is usually invalid because it addressed a group. An individual can be hypocritical, but you'd sort of need to show that they've specifically espoused contrary opinions (and even then, you're assuming they continue to hold them, rather than having changed their mind). A group like "this forum" doesn't have a single opinion and doesn't, in fact, do things together. You're conflating different people saying different things into one nonspecific entity saying contrary things.

Anyway, most serious optimizers are also rigorous about the rules; it's not a challenge unless you use the rules right. And such optimized characters are generally expected to be run against monsters that are, if not optimized (and used by-the-book instead), at least run to full effect. Most optimizing challenges work like this (e.g. the one with the Elder Evils).

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-24, 04:01 PM
This complaint is usually invalid because it addressed a group. An individual can be hypocritical, but you'd sort of need to show that they've specifically espoused contrary opinions (and even then, you're assuming they continue to hold them, rather than having changed their mind). A group like "this forum" doesn't have a single opinion and doesn't, in fact, do things together. You're conflating different people saying different things into one nonspecific entity saying contrary things.

Anyway, most serious optimizers are also rigorous about the rules; it's not a challenge unless you use the rules right. And such optimized characters are generally expected to be run against monsters that are, if not optimized (and used by-the-book instead), at least run to full effect. Most optimizing challenges work like this (e.g. the one with the Elder Evils).

the issue with that being that those responding were mostly in that category of berating her posts simply because it's not how they would want to play it, "this forum" in that case is indeed a generalization but it can be one as simple as "the people responding in this topic".

the extents an optimizer will go to for a challenge aren't in question here though, not everyone plays to see just how far they can push a build or how quickly they can beat a game. unless someone specifically mentions that their goal is the same as yours it's vain to assume that they're going to want to play things to your exact standards and need your guidance to do so. if people want to say how they would have done it that's fine but they can do that without bashing on someone else for doing things differently.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 04:13 PM
the issue with that being that those responding were mostly in that category of berating her posts simply because it's not how they would want to play it, "this forum" in that case is indeed a generalization but it can be one as simple as "the people responding in this topic".

the extents an optimizer will go to for a challenge aren't in question here though, not everyone plays to see just how far they can push a build or how quickly they can beat a game. unless someone specifically mentions that their goal is the same as yours it's vain to assume that they're going to want to play things to your exact standards and need your guidance to do so. if people want to say how they would have done it that's fine but they can do that without bashing on someone else for doing things differently.

Not to mention the god was suppose to be D’endrrah, and not Azathoth anyway. I literally just opened the CoC book going "which god could he take, who could I use for her stats?"

The simple fact of the matter, is that given the tactics and knowledge I had at the time, he could beat a 50 CR monster in my eyes at least, so I was curious how much xp it would give so I could figure out an ending.

(The PC ended with becoming a vestige over time).

Sidmen
2013-11-24, 04:29 PM
Not to mention the god was suppose to be D’endrrah, and not Azathoth anyway. I literally just opened the CoC book going "which god could he take, who could I use for her stats?"

The simple fact of the matter, is that given the tactics and knowledge I had at the time, he could beat a 50 CR monster in my eyes at least, so I was curious how much xp it would give so I could figure out an ending.

(The PC ended with becoming a vestige over time).
Maybe, in the future, you should spoiler the 20-sentence leadup before you ask the 1-2 sentence question. When you spend 95% of your post talking about the monster you used, the PC's stats, and how it was impossible for the creature to beat your PC - well, it shouldn't come as any surprise that 95% of the responses will be about those things.

Anyway, glad to hear you found an appropriate reward.

Brookshw
2013-11-24, 05:03 PM
*low hundreds. On a good day, at least.

Out of curiosity would you mind breaking that down?

The Fury
2013-11-24, 10:14 PM
You know what the justification is for the big bad teleport?

He has every one of his factories under contract scry. The instant one is taken down, either he or one of his elites teleports in and kills the PCs assuming they think they can take them judging by the footage.

Yeah, a BIG BAD who does scry and die.

Well, at least the PCs did something to show up on they guy's radar and had some idea of what they were up against. I guess that's better than how some DMs I've met might've handled that.
"OK, everyone! Roll up a 7th level character!"
(later)
"Everyone got their character ready? OK! *Ahem.* You all meet in a tavern, you're ordering drinks then the (level 18) evil wizard Gnarlious Maximus teleports in and nukes your party and hits the paladin with a Geas and makes her a sex slave. Everyone else dies."
"What? You guys might've been a threat to his plans of world conquest later!"
"Well, that was fun. Let's play Smash Bros!"



I play by rule of cool, rule of drama, and rule of fun. If I want him to beat up an elder god, I'll let him.


Hey, that gets no complaints from me. I might personally find beating up an Elder God a little silly, but as long as everyone involved is having fun who am I to say anyone's wrong? I like my rules of cool, drama and fun. They're good rules.

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-24, 10:27 PM
Catching up on this thread, but isn't Azathoth supposed to be a True Omnipotent in the Cthulhu mythos?

Edit:

This thread didn't really need to be made, as far as I can tell. It all sums down to a single question, "What amount of EXP does a CR 50 creature give" and we have a specific thread in the d20 subforum that is meant for asking simple Pathfinder questions like that.

The Fury
2013-11-24, 10:40 PM
Catching up on this thread, but isn't Azathoth supposed to be a True Omnipotent in the Cthulhu mythos?

Yes, sort of. Azathoth is absurdly powerful but also mindless, having no real will of its own. It functions more as a force of nature than a discrete entity. Though I think Morithias mentioned that it was actually a setting-specific Elder God statted as Azathoth, not really Azathoth itself. Though that would also mean that this god would be planetoid-sized... Well, she did say that the player did the impossible when he beat it.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 11:06 PM
Yes, sort of. Azathoth is absurdly powerful but also mindless, having no real will of its own. It functions more as a force of nature than a discrete entity. Though I think Morithias mentioned that it was actually a setting-specific Elder God statted as Azathoth, not really Azathoth itself. Though that would also mean that this god would be planetoid-sized... Well, she did say that the player did the impossible when he beat it.

Actually the elder god that it canon was does exist in the mythos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos_deities#D.E2.80.99endrrah

However they didn't stat her in the book.

The Fury
2013-11-24, 11:18 PM
Actually the elder god that it canon was does exist in the mythos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos_deities#D.E2.80.99endrrah

However they didn't stat her in the book.

Ah, OK then. I admit my knowledge of the Mythos is a bit cursory. I mainly know a few of the Lovecraft and Derleth stories and the Chaosium RPGs.

lunar2
2013-11-24, 11:34 PM
Blasphemy/Holy Word still kills him. No attack roll, no save, no spell resistance, just death.
Thanks to inccubus' evil subtype, he's vulnerable to Holy Word even if he is good aligned.
Alternate Reality -> Holy Word -> gg

actually, holy word doesn't hit you if you're evil. it hits you if you're not good. a lawful good incubus counts as all four alignments, and therefore is immune to holy word and its companion spells.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 11:38 PM
actually, holy word doesn't hit you if you're evil. it hits you if you're not good. a lawful good incubus counts as all four alignments, and therefore is immune to holy word and its companion spells.

I have no bloody clue what the PC's actual alignment is. He never really hurt anyone, and was basically just a pervert at worse. His reason for beating up the Succubus Queen was basically "She was hot, and I wanted her in my harem, along with her power." Which is arguably better than "I want to kill her because of her race" you get from Paladins and the like.

Zrak
2013-11-24, 11:41 PM
Yeah, I don't know if physically forcing someone into your harem is less evil than, well, any alternative, really.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 11:44 PM
Yeah, I don't know if physically forcing someone into your harem is less evil than, well, any alternative, really.

Okay in my worlds your appearance is either your charisma or 13 whichever is higher.

This guy has a charisma in the low hundreds.

Also she's kind of a demon. A demon of lust. Being offered occasional sexual activity is a HUGE step up than what someone like say Orcus would do to her.

He made it very clear if she didn't want to join, he could always just kill her.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-24, 11:45 PM
Yeah, I don't know if physically forcing someone into your harem is less evil than, well, any alternative, really.

I'd move for it to at least be grounds for "highly awkward-evil" if not "how do they not have paladins after them-evil"

lunar2
2013-11-24, 11:47 PM
I have no bloody clue what the PC's actual alignment is. He never really hurt anyone, and was basically just a pervert at worse. His reason for beating up the Succubus Queen was basically "She was hot, and I wanted her in my harem, along with her power." Which is arguably better than "I want to kill her because of her race" you get from Paladins and the like.

i was just pointing out that holy word and its ilk work backwards from how most people think they do. they don't care what alignment you are, they care what alignment you aren't. if you are LG, and have the chaotic and evil subtypes, you are immune to those spells.

Morithias
2013-11-24, 11:47 PM
I'd move for it to at least be grounds for "highly awkward-evil" if not "how do they not have paladins after them-evil"

So lets get this straight.

Letting her go while she's mostly powerless in a plane full of people that will probably torture her, rape her, and kill her, possibly not in that order: Totally Fine.

Casually offering her a job doing something that as a demon of lust, she would enjoy and giving her a way out of the abyss: "highly awkward-evil."

Zrak
2013-11-24, 11:48 PM
As long as he's handsome and offered to kill her if she said no, I guess that's totally fine.

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-24, 11:54 PM
So lets get this straight.

Letting her go while she's mostly powerless in a plane full of people that will probably torture her, rape her, and kill her, possibly not in that order: Totally Fine.

Casually offering her a job doing something that as a demon of lust, she would enjoy and giving her a way out of the abyss: "highly awkward-evil."

well, considering options he clearly has a way off the plane so he could have A: taken her off the plane where she is still powerless and capable of being imprisoned or at least not being nearly as much of a threat to people. B: did what he did which is essentially forcing himself on her with the threat of death or other things forcing themselves on her. or C: let other things force themselves on her. of the three options one doesn't involve rape by any group involved.

Morithias
2013-11-25, 12:03 AM
well, considering options he clearly has a way off the plane so he could have A: taken her off the plane where she is still powerless and capable of being imprisoned or at least not being nearly as much of a threat to people. B: did what he did which is essentially forcing himself on her with the threat of death or other things forcing themselves on her. or C: let other things force themselves on her. of the three options one doesn't involve rape by any group involved.

What part of "She is a god damn SUCCUBUS" do you not get?

You know. Literal incarnation of lust? A being that by it's very definition, outside of beings from the plane of lust, are the most sexually active beings in existence?

He basically said "Hey want to live in a palace and have a job sleeping with the hottest man in existence?"

MonochromeTiger
2013-11-25, 12:09 AM
What part of "She is a god damn SUCCUBUS" do you not get?

You know. Literal incarnation of lust? A being that by it's very definition, outside of beings from the plane of lust, are the most sexually active beings in existence?

He basically said "Hey want to live in a palace and have a job sleeping with the hottest man in existence?"

then what's different about that from letting the creatures of the plane have their way with her, if she's going to enjoy it either way all he's really doing is saying "mine" or threatening to kill her. "well they may torture her", some people see that as an aspect of lust. "they might kill her", he might too and he's the one who intentionally went up to fight and weaken her to the point where she'd be in danger in the first place when as you stated she'd probably willingly sleep with the "hottest man in existence" just from him asking if she's an incarnation of lust. no, never mind, I'm just dropping out of the thread this is one of those subjects I can't stand and no matter what I say someone is going to get ticked off at what I say.

The Fury
2013-11-25, 12:12 AM
Man, I guess it's always a good time for an alignment debate, eh?
I guess as long as neither character's upset with the arrangement, no problem right? It does come off a bit like she's being coerced though.

Zrak
2013-11-25, 12:14 AM
She obviously wanted it, look at how she's dressed. Good thing he was there to force her into a harem, which is certainly morally acceptable because she is a succubus, lest some paladin come and take action based on preconceived notions about her race.

Morithias
2013-11-25, 12:22 AM
She obviously wanted it, look at how she's dressed. Good thing he was there to force her into a harem, which is certainly morally acceptable because she is a succubus, lest some paladin come and take action based on preconceived notions about her race.

I'd rather be in a harem, than DELETED FROM EXISTENCE. Which is what basically the Paladin would do.

Deffers
2013-11-25, 12:27 AM
Here's the thing, for me at least-- rape is rape even if someone would want to have sex with a character under normal conditions. Rape is the removal of choice from the sexual act. By including the "and I'll kill you" clause he explicitly makes it so she has to choose between sex with him and death, which is a big deal for an outsider that has no afterlife. The dimension of choice is removed, even if she would have said yes anyway or even if she already wanted to jump his bones. Rape is always Evil, so... this is pretty open-and-shut. Beyond that it's important to remember a person whose charisma is in the low hundreds shouldn't have to even include that clause.

And a half-decent paladin would have to give quarter to a surrendering opponent and ensure that they are on the path to redemption, whatever it should be. You only go into "smite the darkness and burn the unholy" mode when it's absolutely certain that this is the right thing to do-- powderkeg paladin is best paladin, after all.

EDIT: If a paladin were plane-shifted into this situation, I'd play him as defending the Succubus Queen, hilariously. Probably he'd die violently at the hands of the dude who can kill a palette-swapped Azzy (or Dendrahh, whichever's cool) but them's the breaks.

Morithias
2013-11-25, 12:29 AM
And a half-decent paladin would have to give quarter to a surrendering opponent and ensure that they are on the path to redemption, whatever it should be. You only go into "smite the darkness and burn the unholy" mode when it's absolutely certain that this is the right thing to do-- powderkeg paladin is best paladin, after all.

SHE IS A BLOODY DEMON LORD! YOU CAN'T EVEN REDEEM DEMONS USING THE DIPLOMACY RULES MORE OR LESS AN ARCHDEMON!

You might as well have said "Oh that Elder God who was invading the earth realm? Yeah you should have tried talking to her first."

The Fury
2013-11-25, 12:34 AM
I think we might be digressing from the thread's original subject and into a territory that's beyond the scope of these forums. Yeah, the justification that Señor Handsomeman offered does sound pretty sketchy, I'll admit that. Though maybe we should drop it and move on.

Deffers
2013-11-25, 12:38 AM
I might... actually be fuzzy on the rules there. You have me at a disadvantage.

I was under the assumption that you could, but that seems like it'd be such a common houserule that I can totally believe that it's not and you're right in this case.

...Which brings up a lot of interesting questions about Succubus paladins. Of course that's more 3.5 than PF, so that may be where my confusion stems from. Apologies.

I'm not saying it's not a better option than getting erased from existence, especially for a primal creature of lust. I'm saying it's still an Evil act anyway, from my understanding, despite how well it works for everybody involved. Which is kind of weird, innit? But you yourself had a thread involving an evil character who ran a very nice utopia. Sometimes Evil can have beneficial results for all involved-- but that doesn't make it less evil.

EDIT: To tie it back to the original thread, if he's evil in that case, then Holy Word's definitely something he's gonna have a problem with. Perhaps fluff it so this Den'draah character couldn't do holy things, if you're gonna use 'em later? If you aren't, it's already over, so... eh. All's well that ends well, I guess.

Morithias
2013-11-25, 12:57 AM
EDIT: To tie it back to the original thread, if he's evil in that case, then Holy Word's definitely something he's gonna have a problem with. Perhaps fluff it so this Den'draah character couldn't do holy things, if you're gonna use 'em later? If you aren't, it's already over, so... eh. All's well that ends well, I guess.

Usually with Wish I usually rule "you can't use wish to do things you would be incapable of doing assuming you had the ability you're replicating".

For example let's say you had a paladin with wish (don't ask how he got it), he couldn't go "Okay I cast animate dead on this hydra corpse" without falling, because even though he is technically casting wish, and not animate dead....

At the same token, if the Elder God had had cleric levels to the point where she could cast holy word, she wouldn't be able to cast holy word with those cleric levels due to being evil, and therefore she is not allowed to here.

Deffers
2013-11-25, 01:09 AM
Also, there's the fact that holy word would probably rock her own socks off. Though there are questions of how hard you could use Alter Reality-- but at this point I'm speculating since, as I've said, I know more about 3.5 than PF. Maybe this creature could set off "I'm good-- for as long as it takes me to cast holy word then I'm back at evil." That's about the only way I could see it. Maybe Wish for an effect that's functionally identical to Holy word but to non-Den'draah?

The fall thing's unquestionable, though.

I think what this ends up illustrating is how silly it is for stats to exist of Azathoth-- AZATHOTH. Even if you did restat it as Den'draah. I'm kind of curious as to why they'd even include that one in the CoC book. Scratch that-- I'm kind of curious as to what adventuring party could possibly get to the point where they'd use those stats in any capacity in CoC. It'd be like Old Man Henderson's own A-Team.

But beyond that I think it highlights a bigger flaw of high level play-- you had to calculate out pretty much how the fight would go because it would last thousands of rounds. There's no reasonable way to expect you or him to have a battle of wits for that long. That'd be like ten sessions in a row. Question-- would you gauge it as satisfying in comparison to a final boss fight you actually played out? I'm guessing no, but I'd like some confirmation.

Morithias
2013-11-25, 01:12 AM
Question-- would you gauge it as satisfying in comparison to a final boss fight you actually played out? I'm guessing no, but I'd like some confirmation.

Oh hell yes. It made an epic scene in my head and I enjoyed going over the over-the-top math with him.

Of course my schizo-mind might help with that.

Kerim
2013-11-25, 01:19 AM
Out of curiosity would you mind breaking that down?
At level 20:

18 base, +4 firesouled (LA bought off), +2 unseelie fey, +2 Magic-blooded, +16 Succubus, Creature of Lust (Out of Nymphology, which is a bit of an obscure book, and an 18+ one, so you might want to disregard this if you try to recreate the build.)+4, (<-All racial, and thus stacking) Tome of Leadership +5, (<-Inherent) Belt of Magnificence +6, (<-Enhancement) Devil's Ego +4, (<-Profane) Righteous Aura +4, (<- Holy, or whatever the name is.) Horseshoes of Flame +6, (<- Untyped, and he used a Phylactery of Change if he wanted to look like himself, his regular change self on other occasions.) +5 levelup, +5/30 Rod of Repression. (<-Untyped, from Book of Erotic Fantasy. Does 1d6 Cha damage to a creature, to a max of 5d6 to different ones, and, for 24 hours, adds this to your own. Greatest cha-booster you can find.)

18+4+2+2+16+4+5+6+4+4+6+5=76. +5/30= 81 to 106

Then, he had an Admirals Bicorne. (+5 to Cha-related Checks (or rolls, not entirely sure). , so it counts for Saves, skills, and the like. He had Succubi's kiss. (Vile version of Nymph's kiss.),

Class levels: (When he fought Malachant.)
Level 12 succubus. (Savage Species progression.) (altered slightly in-game to have no non-HD levels, and lowered to 9 levels, but his HP and BAB really didn't matter at that point, so I'll use the regular version here.)
Level 1 battledancer: (Cha bonus to AC) (Note: Counted as Monk from the DM. May want to do Ascetic Mage with a chaos monk or whatever if that's not allowed, because see later.)
Level 2 Paladin of Slaughter. (Cha bonus to all saves.)
Level 1 Marshal (Demand Fortitude: Cha bonus to fort saves.)
Level 1 Oracle. (Pathfinder. Lore Mystery, using Sidestep Secret. Charisma instead of Dexterity for AC and Reflex Saves base.)

Sadly, he no longer counted as a Fey, so Winter Chill would screw himself over. Otherwise his opponents would be even more screwed.

Anyways, items: (the ones not noted in the charisma boosters thing. Note that he's got continuous versions of the spells necessary that were noted there.)

Slippers of Battledancing. (Cha to Attack Bonus and Damage when moving more than 10 ft per round.)
Training Dummy of the Master (Battledancer counted as Monk, 10ft steps instead of 5ft ones. So full attack+Battledancing was possible.)
Horseshoes of flame
Paid the cost to make someone cast Mantle of the Icy Soul on him. (Both Cold and Fire (due to firesouled) subtype, making him immune to both.)
Has the fiendish or whatever graft giving you some fast healing.
(Didn't have it yet, but could improve it even more) Item of Sirene's Grace, gives some small bonuses, most of which the Belt of Magnificence overrules. But gives a Deflection Bonus to AC equal to your Charisma Modifier. Which is awesome.
Flesh Ring of Scorn, BoVD version, IE, free critical hit confirmation against non-outsiders.


Feats that matter: Noble Scion of War (Pathfinder): Use charisma instead of Dexterity for Inititiative.
Keen Intellect. (Wisdom was his dump stat, although it's still 15 by now.)
As mentioned before, used an Evil adaptation of Nymph's Kiss.

Leadership, from firesouled, gave him an artificer cohort, optimized so that he could craft items for about 10% sale cost.

Max charisma: 106
Max Effective Charisma (after Admirals' Bicorne and Succubi's Kiss): 113
Max Effective Charisma using an only WotC things, and no alterations: 77.

Things for further built (perhaps): Fiend of Corruption level 3, which can give itself another +3 bonus to charisma lasting for the entire day.
Blackguard: It seems Dark Blessing and Divine Grace stack, so another time for your Charisma to add on to your saves.



I might put up the full sheet up somewhere soon, but for now I've got to go.

Deffers
2013-11-25, 01:21 AM
Interesting. Didn't expect that response. Hrm. Can you think of ways to make the experience more memorable for yourself or for your friend?

I'm mostly wondering because at the same time it seems like something of a bummer that you couldn't run through the actual events. Though perhaps if it's not unsatisfying then there's no problem. Two thousand rounds still seems silly, even in the face of that truly massive level divide-- that particular bit isn't your fault so much as a balancing point for the devs, though. Slightly unreal situation, to say the least.

Morithias
2013-11-25, 01:24 AM
Slightly unreal situation, to say the least.

Yes because going up against the Hulks of Zoretha using Magically enchanted Plasma guns and Flying Suits, while throwing around psionics (in a world where until Invasion of Rosewood psionics didn't even EXIST), along with your normal D&D powers is TOTALLY real. Yet I don't see anyone in the invasion of Rosewood campaign complaining.

Also like I said. Schizo mind. I am legally mentally ill. My psychologist literally said "you have trouble telling the difference between reality and fantasy".

So to put it bluntly, it's not unreal to me.

Rhynn
2013-11-25, 01:27 AM
I think what this ends up illustrating is how silly it is for stats to exist of Azathoth-- AZATHOTH. Even if you did restat it as Den'draah. I'm kind of curious as to why they'd even include that one in the CoC book. Scratch that-- I'm kind of curious as to what adventuring party could possibly get to the point where they'd use those stats in any capacity in CoC. It'd be like Old Man Henderson's own A-Team.

Call of Cthulhu d20 includes D&D (3.0) statistics for these creatures because it's traditional for D&D to fight gods and to have statistics for Mythos deities (cf. the 1980 AD&D 1E Deities & Demigods). They are not for use in CoC d20, you are told they are not needed for CoC d20, and you'd have to convert them to use them in CoC d20.

That said, every edition of the actual Call of Cthulhu RPG that I have ever read (so from 2nd onward, I think) has included statistics for Azathoth and Cthulhu.

Deffers
2013-11-25, 01:35 AM
Yes because going up against the Hulks of Zoretha using Magically enchanted Plasma guns and Flying Suits, while throwing around psionics (in a world where until Invasion of Rosewood psionics didn't even EXIST), along with your normal D&D powers is TOTALLY real. Yet I don't see anyone in the invasion of Rosewood campaign complaining.

I'm not saying unreal as in "unrealistic." That'd be...

"Hey, Azathoth has twenty-seven quivering flagella, not twenty-six! And its eyeballs number in the tens of millions, not the millions. Where is the integrity of this production? I've seen 'em myself, and as a result I went prhhrrhrhphhlllggllrrhh."

I was mostly referring to the situation as surreal, but, like... moreso. Pretty odd situation to find yourself in

And weren't the statistics for Cthulhu "1d4 investigators get scooped up in its flabby claws and eaten," or is that a popular myth? 'Cos those stats are fine. They make sense.

Also, Rhynn, do you mean they include the stats from 3.0 with every edition of CoC you've seen, as a sort of tradition?

The Fury
2013-11-25, 01:35 AM
Call of Cthulhu d20 includes D&D (3.0) statistics for these creatures because it's traditional for D&D to fight gods and to have statistics for Mythos deities (cf. the 1980 AD&D 1E Deities & Demigods). They are not for use in CoC d20, you are told they are not needed for CoC d20, and you'd have to convert them to use them in CoC d20.

That said, every edition of the actual Call of Cthulhu RPG that I have ever read (so from 2nd onward, I think) has included statistics for Azathoth and Cthulhu.



That's true, but in the Chaosium Call of Cthulu one of Cthulu's attacks simply describes how many people it kills, not how much damage it does.




And weren't the statistics for Cthulhu "1d4 investigators get scooped up in its flabby claws and eaten," or is that a popular myth? 'Cos those stats are fine. They make sense.



No, that's accurate. Maybe not in specific, but generally true.

Rhynn
2013-11-25, 02:05 AM
Also, Rhynn, do you mean they include the stats from 3.0 with every edition of CoC you've seen, as a sort of tradition?

No.

Call of Cthulhu has Call of Cthulhu stats for all Outer Gods, Elder Gods, and Great Old Ones presented. CoC d20 included D&D stats because 1. Mythos monsters are part of the greater D&D tradition and 2. CoC includes stats for them anyway.


And weren't the statistics for Cthulhu "1d4 investigators get scooped up in its flabby claws and eaten," or is that a popular myth? 'Cos those stats are fine. They make sense.


That's true, but in the Chaosium Call of Cthulu one of Cthulu's attacks simply describes how many people it kills, not how much damage it does.

That's a meme, and an inaccurate one.

Most of Cthulhu's statblock (5.5 Edition, page 165):

STR 140 CON 110 SIZ 210 INT 42 POW 42
DEX 21 Move 24 Stride/20 Swim/16 Fly HP 160
Damage Bonus: +21D6
Weapon: Claw 100%, damage 1D6+21D6
Tentacle 100%, damage 11D6
Armor: 21 points of transdimensional muck and muscle; additionally, he regenerates 6 hit points per round


The "Attacks & Special Effects" section does say "each round 1D3 investigators are scooped up in Cthulhu's flabby claws," which is where the meme originates from. (22D6 damage is more than enough to kill everyone automatically, obviously, since no PC can have more than 18 HP; unless some weird magic is going on I guess.)

The meme is inaccurate in that is purports that that is the extent of the statistics for Cthulhu, which is wildly inaccurate.

Azathoth, Nyarlathotep, and Yog-Sothoth all have stats on the same level of detail.

Edit: For reference, the stats tell us that LAW rockets are, on average, not much use against Cthulhu, but a 120mm tank gun will pound him into dissolution (which is temporary, as per the novel) in about 7 attacks.

Deffers
2013-11-25, 02:16 AM
Hrm. I'm not familiar with CoC d20, of course, but if the max a human could have in terms of hit points is... 18, then doesn't Cthulhu have less than ten times more hitpoints than humanity's greatest hero, HitSponge the Indefatigable?

And a 120mm tank gun will pound him into dissolution in seven rounds... couldn't you SCP-682 the thing and continously keep it under tank fire, then? OK, it's not quite a straight parallel to 682-- they use acid for that thing-- but the idea is the same.

Stats are fun, and all, but this is the sort of thing that makes me think they're also not that good of a thing for ceatures like Cthulhu. I get the nagging feeling that a squadron of GAU-8 equipped A-10s would be all that it takes to halt the coming of the Great Old Ones.

I'm afraid to ask, but-- what're the stats for Azathoth like?

Rhynn
2013-11-25, 02:33 AM
Hrm. I'm not familiar with CoC d20, of course, but if the max a human could have in terms of hit points is... 18, then doesn't Cthulhu have less than ten times more hitpoints than humanity's greatest hero, HitSponge the Indefatigable?

Those stats are from Call of Cthulhu 5.5 edition. Not CoC d20. When I mean CoC d20, it will say CoC d20.

But yes, Cthulhu has only ~9 times the maximum hit points of a human. Not that that is, by itself, a very useful figure.


And a 120mm tank gun will pound him into dissolution in seven rounds... couldn't you SCP-682 the thing and continously keep it under tank fire, then?

When reduced to 0 hit points, Cthulhu dissolves into horrible unreal gas, then reforms. He can't be damaged during this. So nope.


Stats are fun, and all, but this is the sort of thing that makes me think they're also not that good of a thing for ceatures like Cthulhu.

Sure, but that's not my point. My point is that people repeat untrue and/or misleading memes about Call of Cthulhu without ever having looked in the rulebooks.


I get the nagging feeling that a squadron of GAU-8 equipped A-10s would be all that it takes to halt the coming of the Great Old Ones.

Except, you know, most of the pilots go insane as soon as they see any GOO, and also magic. I was just giving a frame of reference for the numbers with the tank gun example.


I'm afraid to ask, but-- what're the stats for Azathoth like?

Outer Gods are generally much more powerful to begin with.

Azathoth has more N/As (Not Applicable), and his attack is "Pseudopo 100% or less, damage D100 hit points + corroding the surface." Azathoth is dispelled (for 1D6 hours) at 0 hit points, and has no armor or regeneration.

Yog-Sothoth is similar, but only damaged by magic weapons, and attacks with permanent CON drain and "Silver Bolt 80%, damage death in 5-yard diameter."

Edit: Also, one thing to keep in mind is that in the only novel actually featuring Great Cthulhu, he IS reduced to 0 hit points and defeated. The steamboat rams through him, and he dissolves and is sucked back down as R'lyeh sinks.

hymer
2013-11-25, 03:31 AM
Edit: Also, one thing to keep in mind is that in the only novel actually featuring Great Cthulhu, he IS reduced to 0 hit points and defeated. The steamboat rams through him, and he dissolves and is sucked back down as R'lyeh sinks.

He'll be back. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Rhynn
2013-11-25, 03:44 AM
He'll be back.

:smallbiggrin:

Randomly, if we want personal opinions, Trail of Cthulhu is hands down the best Mythos RPG (Cthulhu Dark is a close second; the combat rules are "you die"), and has the best entries on the "Titans" (a nice alternative to the confusing, arbitrary, and inconsistent-in-the original-material terms like Great Old One and Outer God). Each one is presented with multiple alternative hypothesis, like Nyarlathotep being a transdimensional viral meme, Cthulhu being an extrusion from a dimension that's basically full of tentacles, Azathoth being the black hole at the center of the galaxy/universe (the piping is a specific kind of radiation it emits)...

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-25, 10:57 AM
So...

Why didn't anyone point out yet that the "Alter Reality" that the PC has is just Wish as an SLA once per minute and thus incredibly inferior to the actual Salient Divine ability Azathoth possesses?

Kalmageddon
2013-11-25, 11:25 AM
And I'm not joking about that big bad teleporting in thing. I did it once, and I went into great detail about how the female PC was now a sex slave.

What? :smallconfused:


I have no bloody clue what the PC's actual alignment is. He never really hurt anyone, and was basically just a pervert at worse. His reason for beating up the Succubus Queen was basically "She was hot, and I wanted her in my harem, along with her power." Which is arguably better than "I want to kill her because of her race" you get from Paladins and the like.

WHAT?! :smalleek:


She obviously wanted it, look at how she's dressed. Good thing he was there to force her into a harem, which is certainly morally acceptable because she is a succubus, lest some paladin come and take action based on preconceived notions about her race.

That is what she seems to be implying, isn't it? I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it! :smallannoyed:



Also like I said. Schizo mind. I am legally mentally ill. My psychologist literally said "you have trouble telling the difference between reality and fantasy".

So to put it bluntly, it's not unreal to me.

...and the way you cope with it is certanly interesting.
This is incredibly offensive. You seem to be implying that having a mental illness makes for a great justification when needed.
I don't know a single person that would be willing to merrily announce "I'm mentally ill, so it's ok!" when confronted on ANY subject.

I don't feel I have the liberty to express myself further on this, so I'll just leave this be. :smallannoyed:



This thread didn't really need to be made, as far as I can tell. It all sums down to a single question, "What amount of EXP does a CR 50 creature give" and we have a specific thread in the d20 subforum that is meant for asking simple Pathfinder questions like that.

I have to agree here.
Also, how come that I can't open a single thread in the Roleplaying Games board without finding mention of sex and rape regardless of what the actual topic was?

tyckspoon
2013-11-25, 11:33 AM
So...

Why didn't anyone point out yet that the "Alter Reality" that the PC has is just Wish as an SLA once per minute and thus incredibly inferior to the actual Salient Divine ability Azathoth possesses?

I noticed, but it didn't seem terribly relevant to the way the thread is going. Heck, I only brought up the Hail of Stone thing because I'm quite fond of the spell as a RAW embodiment of Rocks Fall.

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-25, 11:38 AM
I noticed, but it didn't seem terribly relevant to the way the thread is going. Heck, I only brought up the Hail of Stone thing because I'm quite fond of the spell as a RAW embodiment of Rocks Fall.

Fair enough. I guess I felt that people were just taking it at face value and weren't investigating any deeper than that.

Aasimar
2013-11-25, 11:42 AM
So, the point of this story is essentially:

PC won fight GM wanted him to win?

Big whoop, anyone can do that.

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-25, 11:43 AM
So, the point of this story is essentially:

PC won fight GM wanted him to win?

Big whoop, anyone can do that.

The point was, "What is the EXP for a CR 50 creature". It just spun off from there because people were confused about what was actually being asked and then started to give their constructive criticism concerning the situation. And now it's just devolving into rape, harem, sex and varying Mythos game system discussions.

Arbane
2013-11-25, 12:20 PM
No.

Call of Cthulhu has Call of Cthulhu stats for all Outer Gods, Elder Gods, and Great Old Ones presented. CoC d20 included D&D stats because 1. Mythos monsters are part of the greater D&D tradition and 2. CoC includes stats for them anyway.


If memory serves me right, Cthulhu is lower CR than Elminster. This amuses me immensely.

(On the topic of Chaosium's rules, I always found Yig's listed damage funny: "Bite: 1d8 + Instant Death".)

Alejandro
2013-11-25, 12:26 PM
See what the player can do with a low level character, some basic equipment and his wits. That's a good measure of real ability.

Kerim
2013-11-25, 12:48 PM
See what the player can do with a low level character, some basic equipment and his wits. That's a good measure of real ability.

It gives a good measure of a certain ability, yes. The ability to use his wits to do creative stuff with basic equipment.

ngilop
2013-11-25, 01:09 PM
Im just confsued as to why you are throwing two different games togther..


that don't seem right at all.

for one. I always have taken to be the Cthulu elder gods are supposed tobe above mortal reproach.

for two.. why is a nat 20 a +30 but a nat 1 only a -10? that in and of itself makes no sense because at epiv levels a -10 is a pitiful pentlay IMO the number should be reveresed a nat 20 is a +10 and a nat 1 be a -30. becuase the number you can get at epic levels is beyond stupid. hence how a 'cr 50' is unable to ever damage your friend character.


but honestly I just don't see the fun in playing a character or playing with somebody who has a character than is immune to everything and nothing can do anything to it. but to each their own.

Kerim
2013-11-25, 01:15 PM
Nat 20 is +10 more than the actual 20, nat 1 is -11 less than the actual one. So nat 20 is treated as having rolled a 30, nat 1 as having rolled a -10.

lunar2
2013-11-25, 01:58 PM
it's the same houserule suggested in the 3.5 dmg, but applying only to epic characters.

Morithias
2013-11-25, 03:35 PM
it's the same houserule suggested in the 3.5 dmg, but applying only to epic characters.

That main reason we use it is.

Well let's say in theory you have an epic fighter, who for some reason has no DR, fast healing or regeneration. His AC is in the high 50's if not higher, he has around 500 or so hit points.

In theory an army of like 10,000 kobolds throwing rocks at him would win, due to the fact that natural 20 always hits. And in theory 1, out of every 20 times he swings his sword at a training dummy, he'll miss it.

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-25, 06:39 PM
Out of curiosity...how many mythological heroes are known for taking on entire armies, that number in the thousands, single handedly and defeating them?

Sith_Happens
2013-11-25, 06:43 PM
Man, I guess it's always a good time for an alignment debate, eh?

It's like Godwin's Law for D&D threads.

EDIT:


Out of curiosity...how many mythological heroes are known for taking on entire armies, that number in the thousands, single handedly and defeating them?

Uh... most of them?

Rhynn
2013-11-25, 06:55 PM
Uh... most of them?

Which ones though? Gilgamesh, Achilles, Hercules, Perseus, King Arthur, Roland, Beowulf, Väinämöinen, Lemminkäinen, Cuchulainn, Naoise mac Usnech...? 'cos I can't think of a one (including those), actually. This may just be my unfamiliarity with the original materials though! Usually they seem to defeat single powerful opponents instead (or don't even stand out by virtue of personal combat ability), or only defeat maybe dozens of opponents. A lot of the time they also fight with a retinue of boon companions or the like.

TuggyNE
2013-11-25, 07:50 PM
Out of curiosity...how many mythological heroes are known for taking on entire armies, that number in the thousands, single handedly and defeating them?

There's always Samson, depending on what you consider mythological.

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-25, 08:26 PM
Uh... most of them?

Name five then.

And I'm not talking about mythological heroes being part of wars between armies and acquitting themselves well, I'm talking about them literally going 1 vs. thousands and coming out the victor.

@TuggyNE: Samson counts.

ryu
2013-11-25, 09:06 PM
There's always Samson, depending on what you consider mythological.

And he was the worst Binding of Isaac character. Starting with one health, low fire rate, knockback (which is usually a negative in this game), and a special item that makes it less likely other better special items drop? Ew.

Madwand99
2013-11-25, 11:35 PM
Name five then.

The meme of one man standing against an army of thousands is so deeply ingrained in fantasy, mythic, and real historical accounts that I personally find it inseperable from the idea of "the warrior". i.e., don't bother calling yourself a powerful warrior if you can't do it. If it can be done in real life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatius_Cocles), you bet it should be possible to do with a fantasy superhero. And that's just one of many such real-life accounts. Even in modern wars, you get heroes who pull off similar feats. There's even a trope for it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneManArmy). Oh, and according to that page: Hanuman, King Arthur, Cu Chulainn, Huitzilopochtli, and Samson. Those are just the mythological ones.

Brookshw
2013-11-25, 11:50 PM
The meme of one man standing against an army of thousands is so deeply ingrained in fantasy, mythic, and real historical accounts that I personally find it inseperable from the idea of "the warrior". i.e., don't bother calling yourself a powerful warrior if you can't do it. If it can be done in real life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatius_Cocles), you bet it should be possible to do with a fantasy superhero. And that's just one of many such real-life accounts. Even in modern wars, you get heroes who pull off similar feats. There's even a trope for it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneManArmy). Oh, and according to that page: Hanuman, King Arthur, Cu Chulainn, Huitzilopochtli, and Samson. Those are just the mythological ones.

Just read that first link, thanks, that was cool :smallbiggrin:

Rhynn
2013-11-26, 01:01 AM
There's always Samson, depending on what you consider mythological.

I'd say Samson totally counts; 1,000 men with a jawbone!

None of the others appear to get up to 1,000, though... there's a difference of scale here. Standing against an army isn't the same thing as slaying thousands (or even one thousand).

Arbane
2013-11-26, 01:15 AM
I'd say Samson totally counts; 1,000 men with a jawbone!

None of the others appear to get up to 1,000, though... there's a difference of scale here. Standing against an army isn't the same thing as slaying thousands (or even one thousand).

Armies were a lot smaller in The Olden Days.

Rhynn
2013-11-26, 01:31 AM
Armies were a lot smaller in The Olden Days.

Yeah, not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Issus) (150,000) really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agrigentum) (over 90,000), dogg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hastings) (12-25,000).* Plus we're talking about mythological people, pretty much nobody actually killed hundreds of people, never mind 1,000 with a jawbone.

* Especially in the Medieval period, the armies were indeed smaller than in the ancient imperial periods (and even then, many battles were obviously fought with smaller forces), but the point here is that I know plenty well how big or small armies were and how they varied, but even then that's sort of irrelevant because we're talking about stories people told.

Lorsa
2013-11-26, 05:24 AM
Not having read through this entire thread I'll answer an early question:

If you kill a monster that can impossibly beat you, you're not supposed to get any (or much) XP from killing it. The challenge ratings are just guidelines, if for some reason they are not applicable (such in this case) it doesn't matter what the book says, it only matters what the reality of the situation is.

So, while you can still get XP for completing a quest or whatever else the GM might give you XP for, killing the actual monster isn't a challenge and thus don't really teach you anything.

Tanuki Tales
2013-11-26, 09:59 AM
The meme of one man standing against an army of thousands is so deeply ingrained in fantasy, mythic, and real historical accounts that I personally find it inseperable from the idea of "the warrior". i.e., don't bother calling yourself a powerful warrior if you can't do it. If it can be done in real life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatius_Cocles), you bet it should be possible to do with a fantasy superhero. And that's just one of many such real-life accounts. Even in modern wars, you get heroes who pull off similar feats. There's even a trope for it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneManArmy). Oh, and according to that page: Hanuman, King Arthur, Cu Chulainn, Huitzilopochtli, and Samson. Those are just the mythological ones.

Hanuman was a god and fought with an army of gods with him, so I'm not going to count him.

King Arthur doesn't count as he was part of an on-going battle between two armies. My question concerned one hero taking on an entire army by his lone self and triumphing.

Cu Chulainn kind of really doesn't count. He took on that entire army in a lengthy one on one combat cycle. When he goes into a warp-spasm he does supposedly kill hundreds, but this was after months of the army being entrenched, demoralized and attacked by forces such as the boy-troop army. Still, it wasn't 1 v. thousands.

Huitzilopochtli, like Hanuman, is a god. And his origin story is pretty varied, as per a lot of mythological figures, and I'm not finding that he killed his 400 brothers, only his sister. Again though, he's a god and a god of war.


So, we're left with Samson and maybe Warp-spasm Cu Chulainn. That's one and a half heroes of yore.


My point of all this is, looking at our classical myths and heroes, I find nothing wrong with a high level fighter falling to an army of 10,000 kobolds. Especially Tucker's Kobolds.

If you do have an issue...well...that kind of scenario is better played out with Exalted or Mutants and Masterminds. Only gods and superheroes take on entire armies and come out unscathed.

Madwand99
2013-11-26, 12:29 PM
My point of all this is, looking at our classical myths and heroes, I find nothing wrong with a high level fighter falling to an army of 10,000 kobolds. Especially Tucker's Kobolds.

If you do have an issue...well...that kind of scenario is better played out with Exalted or Mutants and Masterminds. Only gods and superheroes take on entire armies and come out unscathed.

A well-optimized high-level PC is a god or superhero. I've seen the tactics discussed on the various Tucker's kobold's threads. A few PCs I have might have trouble with them. Most though, would not. I have PCs as low as 6th level that would laugh at their tactics, destroying them in detail or as an army, depending on their abilities. I'm very familiar with Exalted and MnM, and the capabilites of PCs in these systems are not incomparable to those of high-level D&D PCs.

TriForce
2013-11-26, 01:23 PM
Not having read through this entire thread I'll answer an early question:

If you kill a monster that can impossibly beat you, you're not supposed to get any (or much) XP from killing it. The challenge ratings are just guidelines, if for some reason they are not applicable (such in this case) it doesn't matter what the book says, it only matters what the reality of the situation is.

So, while you can still get XP for completing a quest or whatever else the GM might give you XP for, killing the actual monster isn't a challenge and thus don't really teach you anything.

exactly the thing i was trying to say.

to use your own words, you put a pit lord (the character) vs a commoner (the elder god). there was no threath, risk or danger involved for the character, and thus there was no experience to actually learn from. just like how a normal character wont gain levels for stomping on ants, neither would this character gain any xp for defeating a monster that cant even inconveinience him.

on the "rape" debate, i dont really like this discussion, but i have to give it my 5 cents.
you are saying that since she is a demon queen, and sporadic rape and imprisonment is better then being erased from existance by a paladin, its not evil.
thats a bit of faulty logic. it would be like me saying "its not evil for me to imprison and occasionally rape someone, because its better then a murderer walking in and killing her"
it would just be a lousy justification for my own horrible deed. yes that demon queen is obviously evil,but that does not make her a acceptable target for anything. doing less evil stuff then the other demons in that realm is not the same as doing good (or even neutral).

the good thing would be to make sure she wouldnt be able to hurt innocents (by ONLY imprisoning her, trying to reform her or, if she really is a monsterous threath, wich she isnt, killing her)

the neutral thing would be to just dont bother with her or anything else there

the evil thing, well, thats what the character did

lunar2
2013-11-26, 03:45 PM
i keep seeing the word rape thrown around about the situation with the demon queen. the defense morithias put up was that she willingly accepted the position. if she willingly accepted the position in the harem, it's not rape.

The Glyphstone
2013-11-26, 03:47 PM
Great Modthulhu: Locked for review.