ToB Shadowpouncer

[Piggy Knowles]

Hey, all,

I've been trying to make an effective shadowpouncer using ToB for a while. I love the Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink line of maneuvers, but I hate the swordsage recovery mechanic, especially for a shadowpouncer who will want to spam them as much as possible.

So, I decided to build a Master of Nine, using Mo9 to add those maneuvers to a warblade chassis. I'm pretty happy with the result, but I'd like to tweak it a bit. Anyhow, here it is:

BUILD STUB: Human, Warblade 7/Monk 2/Crusader 2/Master of Nine 5/Telflammar Shadowlord 4

ACFs: Invisible Fist (replaces Evasion), Cobra Strike Monk (changes bonus feats)


1. Warblade1- Improved Initiative, Least Dragonmark (Mark of Passage – Dimension Leap)
Battle clarity (reflex saves), weapon aptitude
MANEUVERS: Wolf Fang Strike, Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Punishing Stance (s)
This is a fairly straightforward warblade opener - Sudden Leap for mobility, Wolf Fang Strike because it's the only Tiger Claw maneuver that doesn't have a pre-req, and Moment of Perfect Mind to boost your weakest (and most important) save.

The feats are mostly there to fulfill pre-reqs down the road, but an initiative boost and Dimension Leap certainly aren't going to hurt on a melee character.
2. Monk1- IUS, Dodge
Flurry of blows, unarmed strike
Flurry of Blows + Punishing Stance isn't a terrible option here, especially if you can pull of a flank (which shouldn't be a problem, between Sudden Leap and Dimension Leap).
3. Monk2- Mobility, Spring Attack
Invisible fist
Spring Attack will eventually be the least useful feat in the build, since you'll never, ever want to use it once the build really comes online, but it's a necessary evil. That said, at level 3 when iterative attacks are a distant dream, it really can come in handy to harry foes.

More importantly, this level grants you Invisible Fist. Greater Invisibility every three rounds by level 3 is pretty nice, especially when you eventually pick up sneak attack.
4. Warblade2-
Uncanny dodge
MANEUVERS: Wall of Blades
Counters are actually less useful for you than most because you'll have a lot of uses for your swift actions, but for now it's handy, and it helps you qualify for Iron Heart Surge in a couple of levels.
5. Crusader1-
Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5
MANEUVERS: Mountain Hammer, Douse the Flames, Crusader's Strike, Tactical Strike, Charging Minotaur, Martial Spirit (s)
Crusader comes online to give you some extra maneuvers to help qualify for Mo9. If you're playing with fractional BAB then swordsage might be a better choice, but otherwise you need something full BAB here to hit +16. Anyhow, Mountain Hammer and some healing from Crusader's Strike/Martial Spirit certainly don't go amiss.
6. Crusader2- Lesser Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - Dimension Door)
Indomitable soul
MANEUVERS: Bolstering Voice (s)
The dragonmark here will qualify you for Telflammar Shadowlord, since Shadow Jaunt/Blink/Stride don't do it on their own. This is actually a fairly dead level, and you could easily replace it with anything full BAB (fighter for an extra feat won't go amiss).
7. Warblade3-
Battle ardor (critical confirmation)
MANEUVERS: Iron Heart Surge
I probably don't need to mention why this one is good.
8. Warblade4-
MANEUVERS: Tactics of the Wolf (s), Sudden Leap -> White Raven Tactics
We've got enough mobility by now that we can drop Sudden Leap. However, if your DM allows you to keep maneuvers even after trading out their pre-reqs, definitely drop Wolf Fang Strike instead. Feel free to replace Tactics of the Wolf with Hunters Sense or any other utility stance.
9. Warblade5- Adaptive Style, Blind-Fight
MANEUVERS: Lightning Recovery
Adaptive Style is less useful for you than for a swordsage, but you're going to eventually have such a massive number of maneuvers known that it really will come in handy. This level also qualifies you for....
10. Master of Nine1-
MANEUVERS: Shadow Jaunt, Mithral Tornado
...Master of Nine! This lets you add some nice swordsage maneuvers to your warblade base, giving you the far better recovery method. Shadow Jaunt overlaps a bit with your dragonmark abilities but still comes in handy, as you can eventually use it to make three full attacks in a round.
11. Master of Nine2-
Dual stance
MANEUVERS: Shadow Stride, Assassin’s Stance (S)
And now we have the far superior Shadow Stride as well, and Assassin's Stance. That +2d6 sneak attack is necessary, you'll see why next level.

Dual Stance is a bit limited but still nice, since it lets you benefit from other stances temporarily while still keeping Assassin's Stance up.
12. Telflammar Shadowlord1- Snap Kick
Shadowsight, shadow jump
Ah, the quintessential shadow pouncing PrC. You also nab Snap Kick here, handy for an extra attack, and especially fun when you start pouncing.
13. Telflammar Shadowlord2-
Shadow blur
Free blur anytime I'm near shadows? I'll take it.
14. Telflammar Shadowlord3-
Shadow walk
Shadow walk's no teleport, but it's the next best thing, adding some more out of combat utility to the build.
15. Telflammar Shadowlord4- Craven
Shadow pounce
And the real reason we bothered with this class. This is a pretty fantastic level for you, giving you both shadow pounce and Craven for a very nice damage boost. You can now make two full attacks in a round, by using Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Stride, and still have a swift action to spare. Alternatively, you can do something like Mithral Tornado all your adjacent foes, then, Shadow Stride and full attack anyone who was weakened.
16. Warblade6-
Improved uncanny dodge
MANEUVERS: Wall of Blades -> Manticore Parry
Taking the warblade level here is just a matter of timing, getting your IL up a bit before your next level of Mo9. Manticore Parry is a solid upgrade from Wall of Blades.
17. Master of Nine3-
Perfect form
MANEUVERS: Shadow Blink, Clarion Call
And now everything has more or less come together. You can *bamf* all over the battlefield making a whopping three full attacks per round by using Shadow Jaunt (standard), Shadow Stride (move) and Shadow Blink (swift), plus extra attacks on each from flurry and Snap Kick, and damage from sneak attack/Craven. The next round, recover your maneuvers and attack, then do it all over again on round 3.
18. Warblade7- Superior Unarmed Strike
Battle cunning (damage)
MANEUVERS: Swarming Assault
Once again, we're staggering our Mo9 levels to get the most benefit from them. Swarming Assault and Clarion Call are very nice boosts for the party, although honestly you could replace them without hurting too much.
19. Master of Nine4-
Counter stance
MANEUVERS: Adamantine Hurricane, Balance on the Sky (s)
Balance on the Sky is just to add some utility; you're obviously going to spend most of your time in Assassin's Stance. Feel free to swap it with something else, if you'd like. Adamantine Hurricane is a very nice addition to this. Picture it: swift action *bamf* + full attack, move action *bamf* to an area where you're totally surrounded + full attack, then follow it up with Adamantine Hurricane as a standard to finish off the crowd.
20. Master of Nine5-
Mastery of nine
MANEUVERS: White Raven Hammer, Lightning Throw/One with Shadow
I'm a sucker for things like Lightning Throw, so I couldn't help but include it here since you already qualify for it. It's an AoE attack that actually manages to have relevant damage even at high levels, so that's pretty nice. However, you could replace it with One with Shadow if you'd prefer having incorporealness up your sleeve for when you need it.

The real winner here, though, is the no-save stun of White Raven Hammer. It can also be used to trigger sneak attack against a solo enemy (White Raven Hammer to stun them, then Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink for two full attacks with sneak/Craven damage).

Oh yeah, and you finish with BAB +16, which is nice.

FINAL MANEUVERS/STANCES:

Crusader:

1- Douse the Flames, Crusader's Strike, Douse the Flames
2- Mountain Hammer, Tactical Strike
STANCES- Martial Spirit, Bolstering Voice


Warblade:

1- Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Moment of Perfect Mind
2- Wall of Blades, Shadow Jaunt
3- Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics
4- Lightning Recovery, Mithral Tornado
5- Shadow Stride
6- Manticore Parry
7- Shadow Blink, Clarion Call, Swarming Assault
8- Adamantine Hurricane, White Raven Hammer, Lightning Throw/One with Shadow
STANCES- Punishing Stance, Tactics of the Wolf, Assassin's Stance, Balance on the Sky


SAMPLE ATTACK ROUTINE:

ROUND 1:
Against a solo enemy, White Raven Hammer to stun, then Shadow Blink and Shadow Stride for two full attacks. Against a large group, Shadow Blink and Shadow Stride for two full attacks, ending in the middle of the biggest cluster of foes, then Adamantine Hurricane to finish them. Otherwise, make three full attacks (Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink).

ROUND 2:
Recover maneuvers followed by a full attack.

Repeat as needed.

THOUGHTS FOR CHANGES:

I wouldn't mind focusing a little more on Diamond Mind, but I've been trouble getting the pre-req maneuvers in. The main draw would be eventually taking Stance of Alacrity, so that I could use counters without using an immediate action (which would otherwise prevent me from using Shadow Blink on the following round).
If fractional BAB is allowed, swordsage might be a better option than crusader.
Rotating the monk levels first might help my skills out a bit, since it would mean I'd have Hide/Move Silently available from first level, although my HP would suffer in exchange.
Dropping the second level of crusader for a level of fighter could spare the build an extra feat. That means I could even do something fun like using the fighter feat for Blind-Fight, nabbing Ironheart Aura with my level 5 warblade bonus feat, and picking up Stormguard Warrior over Superior Unarmed Strike.


Any thoughts or feedback on this one?

(I also threw together a Diamond Mind-focused Monk 2/Warblade 15/Shadow Sun Ninja 3 that uses Sun School and Stormguard Warrior. It focuses on charging up combat rhythm with move and swift action teleport + Sun School/Snap Kick, then using Power Attack + Diamond Nightmare Blade + combat rhythm bonus damage as a standard action to finish an enemy off. I may post it as well at some point if there's any interest.)

[The Insanity]

(Sorry if I'm bringing up something already addressed in the OP, but I'm too lazy to read that wall of text.)

Why not go Warblade (or Crusader)/Shadowlord and just pick up Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink via Martial Study feats? Feat starvation, I guess (althouh IMO 3 full attacks would be worth the price)?

[Piggy Knowles]

It gets three full attacks anyhow, thanks to Shadow Blink/Shadow Stride/Shadow Jaunt being pulled in via Master of Nine.

Anyhow, dropping Mo9 would require four additional feats: Martial Study x3 to gain the three teleportation maneuvers, and Martial Stance to nab Assassin's Stance to meet the sneak attack qualification. Mo9 also requires four feats, but two of them are already required for Telflammar Shadowlord, so it really only costs you two. Plus, you get the fun of having a metric crap-top of known and readied maneuvers, and Dual Stance to make up for having to stay in Assassin's Stance all the time.

That said, I do have some build stubs that use Martial Study and Sun School instead of Mo9 and Telflammar Shadowlord.

[The Insanity]

It gets three full attacks anyhow, thanks to Shadow Blink/Shadow Stride/Shadow Jaunt being pulled in via Master of Nine.
Well, duh, I assumed as much. Just presented an alternative.

[Piggy Knowles]

Well, duh, I assumed as much. Just presented an alternative.

OK, fair enough. Just wanted to make sure that was clear, since it's the main goal of the build.

Anyhow, the biggest problem with using Martial Study on top of Telflammar Shadowlord is getting the feat timing down properly, but it's still doable. Something like...

1. Warblade1- Least Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - Dimension Leap), Dodge
2. Warblade2-
3. Warblade3- Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
4. Warblade4-
5. Warblade5- Improved Initiative
6. Warblade6- Lesser Dragonmark (Mark of Passage - DDoor)
7. Warblade7-
8. Fighter1- Mobility
9. Warblade8- Spring Attack
10. Fighter2- Martial Study (Shadow Stride)
11. Warblade9- Blind-Fight
12. Warblade10- Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
13. Telflammar Shadowlord1-
14. Telflammar Shadowlord2-
15. Telflammar Shadowlord3- Craven
16. Telflammar Shadowlord4-
17. Warblade11-
18. Warblade12- Martial Study (Shadow Blink)
19. Warblade13-
20. Warblade14- Iron Will

It matures a little bit later, and doesn't get as many attacks as the Mo9 version. But you do end up with +19 BAB and 9th-level maneuvers, which is hard to argue with.

EDIT: Or...

1. Warblade1- Least Dragonmark, Dodge
2. Warblade2-
3. Warblade3- Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
4. Fighter1- Mobility
5. Fighter2- Spring Attack
6. Warblade4- Lesser Dragonmark
7. Warblade5- Blind-Fight
8. Warblade6-
9. Warblade7- Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
10. Telflammar Shadowlord1-
11. Telflammar Shadowlord2-
12. Telflammar Shadowlord3- Martial Study (Shadow Stride)
13. Telflammar Shadowlord4-
14. Warblade8-
15. Warblade9- Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior
16. Warblade10-
17. Warblade11-
18. Warblade12- Martial Study (Shadow Blink)
19. Warblade13-
20. Warblade14- Improved Initiative/Iron Will

...which gets you shadow pounce by ECL 13, although still no Shadow Blink until level 18. On the other hand, the feat timing works out so that you can nab Stormguard Warrior, which is nice.

DOUBLE EDIT: Actually, I was forgetting all about Telflammar Shadowlord's MS requirements. Hide isn't a problem thanks to Martial Study, but Move Silently still is. You'd have to switch to cobra strike monk over fighter to get the necessary skills.

[The Insanity]

Or fit Able Learner in there somehow. Flaws allowed?

[Rebel7284]

Ruby Knight Vindicator gets access to shadow hand and can spam the hell out of full attacks by getting extra actions.

Stub forthcoming.

[Aegis013]

You can do an idiot Crusader shadowpouncer if you use the interpretation that a character can only know a maneuver once. If not, it's a bit harder to pull off (maybe impossible? I haven't tried to build one)

You also have to use the interpretation that you can give the maneuvers known to Warblade or Swordsage and the maneuvers readied (and thus granted) to Crusader.

Build would look something like this (although I used flaws)

Warblade 1/Fighter 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Unarmed Swordsage +1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Telflemmar Shadowlord 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator +6/Master of Nine 3

Feats:
1. Dodge, H. Mobility, F1. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt, F2. ???
2. Blind-Fight
3. Adaptive Style, SS. Imp. Unarmed Strike
5. Knowledge Devotion, Extra Turning
6. Spring Attack
9. Extra Granted Maneuver
12. ???
15. ???
18. ???

At 7th level, RKV gives you a stance, which you use your Swordsage IL of 5 to grab up Assassin's Stance for the sneak attack. Shape soulmeld gets you the dimension door for TFSL.

You can end up getting quite a number of full attacks, since the Crusader's recovery mechanic is based on turns instead of rounds, WRT yourself, getting 3 full attacks each initiative count, until you run yourself out of Turn Attempts if you want.

[123456789blaaa]

I've seen so many TFS Shadowpouncers that it's hard to me to be suprised anymore. Still, combining Mo9 and TFS wasn't something I've seen before. Props to you :smallcool:.

Dusk and Dawn from the IC:Assassin competition was a dvati monk 2/warblade 3/TFS 5/Psionic Assassin 10 that used Martial Study for the shadow teleportation manuvers, Tashalatora for PA, and advanced death attack. It all ran on Int too. Very synergistic and tight. You may want to recheck it out.

That monk/warblade/SSN sounds interesting. 7 hit combo!. TFS is a great PRC but it's very "packed. There's a ton of goodies in it and prereq's required so it's nice to see a shadowpouncer that's simpler. I'd like to see the build if it's not too much trouble.

[Piggy Knowles]

Ruby Knight Vindicator gets access to shadow hand and can spam the hell out of full attacks by getting extra actions.

Stub forthcoming.

Cool, look forward to seeing it.


Or fit Able Learner in there somehow. Flaws allowed?

I'm just building for fun right now. I tend to not build with flaws in mind, because I don't usually use them in my own games, but if flaws are allowed you can drop fighter/monk/feat rogue entirely and just nab a level of swordsage or something. That said, in this particular instance Able Learner won't help, because while it'll save skill points, without Move Silently as a class skill somewhere you won't be able to have 10 ranks in until ECL 17.


You can do an idiot Crusader shadowpouncer if you use the interpretation that a character can only know a maneuver once. If not, it's a bit harder to pull off (maybe impossible? I haven't tried to build one)

I thought about Idiot Crusader but couldn't get it to work properly. Typically Mo9 crusaders work because they have the maneuvers known funneled to other classes, and just increase the maneuvers readied/granted of the crusader, but in this case I would need to add three maneuvers known to the crusader list, which kind of screws things up. I'd be interested to see the maneuver breakdown on that build stub - I've never built an Idiot Crusader from scratch before.


I've seen so many TFS Shadowpouncers that it's hard to me to be suprised anymore. Still, combining Mo9 and TFS wasn't something I've seen before. Props to you :smallcool:.

Thanks, glad you like it. I had originally toyed with the concept during IC: SSN, but ended up going in a different direction for that particular competition. Still, the idea stuck, and then when I played with it, I found that Mo9 was an even better fit because of similar pre-requisites.


Dusk and Dawn from the IC:Assassin competition was a dvati monk 2/warblade 3/TFS 5/Psionic Assassin 10 that used Martial Study for the shadow teleportation manuvers, Tashalatora for PA, and advanced death attack. It all ran on Int too. Very synergistic and tight. You may want to recheck it out.

Cool, I haven't looked at that one in a while. I'll go check it out.


That monk/warblade/SSN sounds interesting. 7 hit combo!. TFS is a great PRC but it's very "packed. There's a ton of goodies in it and prereq's required so it's nice to see a shadowpouncer that's simpler. I'd like to see the build if it's not too much trouble.

Here's the basic build stub:

Human, Warblade 15/Monk 2/SSN 3
1. Warblade1- Darkstalker, Martial Study (Counter Charge)
2. Warblade2-
3. Warblade3- Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
4. Overwhelming Attack Monk1- Power Attack, IUS
5. Monk2- Combat Reflexes
6. Warblade4- Sun School
7. Warblade5- Ironheart Aura
8. Warblade6-
9. Warblade7- Snap Kick
10. Shadow Sun Ninja1-
11. Shadow Sun Ninja2-
12. Warblade8- Stormguard Warrior
13. Warblade9- Blind-Fight
14. Shadow Sun Ninja3-
15. Warblade10- Robilar’s Gambit
16. Warblade11-
17. Warblade12-
18. Warblade13- Planar Touchstone (Oxyrhynchus)
19. Warblade14- Improved Initiative
20. Warblade15-

I don't have maneuvers totally done yet, just a rough outline. Basically, though, the timing of the SSN levels are to pick up Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink at the earliest levels possible. It has a heavy Diamond Mind focus, in particular the gemstone Nightmare Blades, and it's heavier on counters than the previous build, because it can rely on Stance of Alacrity to counter without screwing up the next round's attacks.

So, it can do fun things like use Robilar's Gambit to charge combat rhythm, but still counter the actual attack. Once charged, it hits with Diamond Nightmare Blade for quadruple damage and two mini-shadowpounces, each dealing 2-3 attacks (regular attack and Snap Kick, plus Oxyrhynchus attack if flat-footed).

[The Insanity]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm#skillKnowledge

[Darrin]

Speaking of which... if anybody can track down any of these older builds from the ToB Build Compendium, I would love to include them in my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585):

Sir Bamfsalot by NineInchNall
Shadow pouncer #4587 by Jarevin
Everbouncing Shadow Vindicator by nice2meetU
Shadow Adept by Shadowcastr
Everpouncer Master of Nine by Sang-Drax
Coup De Grace-r by TheJollyLlama875

Unfortunately, the links are dead on the Wizards site, and the Internet Wayback Machine doesn't seem to have a record of them.

(I managed to find Claws in the Darkness and Quadra-Pounce Shadow Lord.)

[Piggy Knowles]

Speaking of which... if anybody can track down any of these older builds from the ToB Build Compendium, I would love to include them in my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585):

Sir Bamfsalot by NineInchNall
Shadow pouncer #4587 by Jarevin
Everbouncing Shadow Vindicator by nice2meetU
Shadow Adept by Shadowcastr
Everpouncer Master of Nine by Sang-Drax
Coup De Grace-r by TheJollyLlama875

Unfortunately, the links are dead on the Wizards site, and the Internet Wayback Machine doesn't seem to have a record of them.

(I managed to find Claws in the Darkness and Quadra-Pounce Shadow Lord.)

A morning of googling and checking archives hasn't really come up with anything, sorry. Also, google keeps redirecting "Sir Bamfsalot" to "Sir Humpsalot," which is NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL.

If you find them, I'd be interested to see them.

[Aegis013]

I thought about Idiot Crusader but couldn't get it to work properly. Typically Mo9 crusaders work because they have the maneuvers known funneled to other classes, and just increase the maneuvers readied/granted of the crusader, but in this case I would need to add three maneuvers known to the crusader list, which kind of screws things up. I'd be interested to see the maneuver breakdown on that build stub - I've never built an Idiot Crusader from scratch before.

Like I said before, this build requires particular interpretations (which aren't spelled out in ToB, but may very reasonably be ruled against at a given table) including that a martial adept can only know a maneuver once, not just ready. If this interpretaion is not used by the table, this build doesn't work.

It also requires that you are able to assign the maneuver readied from levels of Mo9 to Crusader while assigning the maneuvers known to Warblade or Swordsage. If this interpretation is not used by the table, this build doesn't work.

It also helps for you to be able to assign individual benefits inside a single level of a prestige class to multiple classes (so if you get two maneuvers from Mo9, you could put one on Crusader and one on Warblade), but losing this doesn't make the build not work, it merely makes it a little less powerful.

So, by level:
lvl1. IL 1 W: Leading the Attack (WR, shared by Crusader), Douse the Flames (WR, shared by Crusader), ???, Stance:???

lvl 3. IL 2 SS: Charging Minotaur (SD, shared by Crusader), Stone Bones (SD, Shared by Crusader), ???, ???, ???, ???, Stance: ???

lvl 4. IL 2.5 C: Crusader Strike (DS), Vanguard Strike (DS), and since all of the other maneuver options are taken up by the other martial adept classes, you have only 2 known and 2 granted. (this is where that interpretation matters), Stance: ???

lvl 6. IL 4 SS: ???, Stance: ???

lvl 7. IL 5 RKV (using SS IL), Stance: Assassin's Stance

lvl 12. IL 7.5 RKV (using C IL), add Shadow Jaunt to Crusader (3 known, 3 granted due to Extra Granted)

lvl 14. IL 9.5 RKV (using C IL), add Shadow Stride to Crusader (4 known, 3 readied)

lvl 15. Increased Maneuvers granted by 1. (4 known, 4 readied)

lvl 16. IL 11.5 RKV (using C IL, add something to another class)

lvl 18. IL 13.5 Mo9 (using C IL), add Shadow Blink to Crusader, add the readied, and put the other known on another martial adept class (5 known, 5 granted)

lvl 19. IL 14.5 Mo9 (using C IL) add White Raven Tactics or other to Crusader, and the readied (6 known, 6 granted)

lvl 20. IL 15.5 Mo9 (using C IL) add 1 8th of choice (my personal vote is One With Shadow) and the other granted (7 known, 7 granted) and the other to one of the other martial adepts.

This lets you spend a swift (for Divine Impetus, assuming it is not ruled to use a standard action) to WRT self, which is refreshed on your next turn, on the next initiative count, make 3 full attacks, then on the next initiative count, repeat until you deplete your turn attempts. As said before, this depends on some favorable interpretations, which may reasonably not be allowed.