Any way to change a spell's point of origin?

[AstralFire]

Random curiosity led to me poking around at various things.

A warmage (MiniHB/CArc)/exalted arcanist (BoED)/incantatrix (Magic of Faerun) build could theoretically, with use of Arcane Thesis (PHB II), Searing Spell (Sandstorm), Consecrate Spell (BoED), Purify Spell (BoED), and Maximize Spell turn Greater Fireburst (CArc) into a 6th level spell which deals 180 unresistable damage to evil creatures (90 to neutral) reflex half... in a pitiful 10 foot PBAoE range.

Any chance there's something around to make the area larger, or (more likely) change its point of origin from the caster? The spell is not valid for enlarge, but something like this pretty much begs to be used as a battlefield spell against supernatural evil.

[MonochromeTiger]

Random curiosity led to me poking around at various things.

A warmage (MiniHB/CArc)/exalted arcanist (BoED)/incantatrix (Magic of Faerun) build could theoretically, with use of Arcane Thesis (PHB II), Searing Spell (Sandstorm), Consecrate Spell (BoED), Purify Spell (BoED), and Maximize Spell turn Greater Fireburst (CArc) into a 6th level spell which deals 180 unresistable damage to evil creatures (90 to neutral) reflex half... in a pitiful 10 foot PBAoE range.

Any chance there's something around to make the area larger, or (more likely) change its point of origin from the caster? The spell is not valid for widen or enlarge, but something like this pretty much begs to be used as a battlefield spell against supernatural evil.

I'm fairly certain there are a few spells which can be used to change point of origin and direction of a spell to instead be on a targeted enemy or friend but I'm not sure if they're first party or third party and I'd have to search to find them.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wait, why isn't it valid for Widen Spell? It's a burst, and Widen can specifically apply to a burst.:smallconfused:

[AstralFire]

Wait, why isn't it valid for Widen Spell? It's a burst, and Widen can specifically apply to a burst.:smallconfused:

Dumb error on my part, though I'd rather get something larger than Widen or choose a different source, still. Inferno Blast is a 60 foot burst, and 20 foot radius with me as the center just seems kinda pitiful for a caster.

I sold all my FR books long ago (Incantatrix is available from the Wizards' site), but wasn't there a War Wizard of Cormyr or something that could super-widen spells?

[eggynack]

Does project image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/projectImage.htm) work? It's a pretty cool spell.

[AstralFire]

Does project image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/projectImage.htm) work? It's a pretty cool spell.

It does I think, thanks! Though the problem with a spell solution is getting the Warmage that spell. I've been working in non-specifics, I guess I'll have to actually plan a build out to see if I have room to nab it with Eclectic Learning.

[nedz]

Reach Spell or Spectral Hand
Share Spells with your familiar
Ocular Spell or Spell Warp Sniper
Sculpt Spell (Line to area, or vice versa)

[AstralFire]

From my understanding of familiars (I don't use them very much, but I do use psicrystals...), Share Spell won't work here because it's a spell originating from you, not a spell that you are casting on yourself.

Reach Spell doesn't work here because it's not a touch spell, same for Spectral Hand.

I'm not familiar with ocular spell or spell warp sniper?

[jindra34]

Spellwarp Sniper won't help. It'll just turn it into a pathetic 10ft range ray. No Save or spell resistance though...

[Gazzien]

Pretty sure there's a feat (Cityscape?) that lets you choose a different point of origin.

[Maginomicon]

Pretty sure there's a feat (Cityscape?) that lets you choose a different point of origin.If you're referring to "Deceptive Spell", it won't do what you think. As-written IIRC, it just allows you to fluff the effect as coming from that location, not mechanically put it there. The example it gives is having a lightning bolt come from the sky instead of your hands so that no one can tell you were the source.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Arcane Hierophant (RotW)?

[JeminiZero]

The Greater Glyph Seal (MiC 161) can store a spell of 5th level or higher, with no upper limit AFAIK. You can store your holy fire burst in there, pass it to the meat shield, and have him trigger it, when he is face to face with the demon king.

[Deophaun]

If you're referring to "Deceptive Spell", it won't do what you think. As-written IIRC, it just allows you to fluff the effect as coming from that location, not mechanically put it there. The example it gives is having a lightning bolt come from the sky instead of your hands so that no one can tell you were the source.
Heh, I just figured out how to frame one of my PCs for murder.

[Gazzien]

If you're referring to "Deceptive Spell", it won't do what you think. As-written IIRC, it just allows you to fluff the effect as coming from that location, not mechanically put it there. The example it gives is having a lightning bolt come from the sky instead of your hands so that no one can tell you were the source.

Damn. I couldn't recall, and wasn't near my books so I couldn't check. Ah well.

[Maginomicon]

Heh, I just figured out how to frame one of my PCs for murder.

Damn. I couldn't recall, and wasn't near my books so I couldn't check. Ah well.
Personally, I think that it was badly-written, so I house-rule Deceptive Spell as follows:
The deceptive spell metamagic feat (Cityscape p60) is an odd case so far as line-of-effect is concerned. Generally, the new origin and ending points of the spell must be within the original range of the spell relative to your position (this range could be enlarged with an enlarge spell effect and would still enlarge the spell’s effect if that effect is a valid target for enlarging). You only require line-of-sight to the new origin as described above (and to the destination if the destination is a target creature or object).

Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, can still be deceptive (so long as they otherwise are valid targets for deceptive spell) but only within the range limits of that spell’s stated range and only if the origin and ending points of the spell are within that spell’s range. If there’s no such mention of any sort of range, assume it has a “close” range (25 ft. + 5ft. / 2 CL) for the purposes of adjudicating the effects of Deceptive Spell.
It's important to note that even with Deceptive Spell you still have to somehow hide the fact that you're casting a spell, as you must speak clearly in order to use the verbal component, make all somatic component motions, touch all relevant material components, etc.

[Dr. Cliché]

Probably not what you're looking for, but I seem to recall a Dragon Magazine feat that lets you cast spells through your familiar.

[Red Bear]

Any chance there's something around to change its point of origin from the caster?

The Arcane Archer class feature "Imbue Arrow" allows a caster to use the place where the arrow lands or hits as the point of origin of the spell.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm

[AstralFire]

Rereading Sculpt Spell, it actually works just fine. I had a long day yesterday. *sigh*

So with Sculpt + Widen Spell, you can get four 20ft. cones of 150 unresistable fire damage, reflex half as an eighth level spell. That feels appropriate for fighting an army of evil.

[nedz]

Sculpt Spell is limited by the 10' range (20' with Widen)


Range

A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

So you can Sculpt it, but it doesn't really help — though you should be able to avoid friendly fire.

[HaikenEdge]

Deceptive Spell? If I recall correctly, you can change it's apparent point of origin.

[Elderand]

Deceptive Spell? If I recall correctly, you can change it's apparent point of origin.

apparent being the key word

[Fax Celestis]

The only thing I can think of is the claw of the crawling spell (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nabh?Claw-of-the-Crawling-Spell), which is a not-official not-unofficial item from RPG Superstar 2012.

[HaikenEdge]

apparent being the key word


A deceptive spell appears to come from any direction you choose. For Instance a Magic Missile might shoot down froma nearby doorway, or a lightning bolt might emerge from the floor. You cannot use this feat to gain a bonus to hit, to circumvent cover, or in any other way to gain a numerical or mechanical advantage on any attack rolls. It's purpose is to disguise the source of the spell, preventing anyone who did not actively observe you casting from recognizing you as the caster. You cannot use Deceptive spell to any spell with a range of touch, or a target of 'you' A Deceptive spell uses a slot one level higher thant e spell's actual level
As far as the text goes, as long as you're not using it to gain a numerical or mechanical advantage on any attack rolls or circumvent cover, and it seems like it'd be valid, since there's no mention of being restricted by range, I'm not sure how it'd actually interact with the spell in question.

[Rubik]

Ocular Spell would give it a range of 60', and then you could Chain Spell it to damage more enemies. Add in Split Ray and you've just doubled your fun. Add in the Explosive Power metapsionic feat (for a PF StP erudite) for more explosions.

[Pickford]

Rubik:

Ocular Spell would give it a range of 60', and then you could Chain Spell it to damage more enemies.

Ocular Spell only grants the 60' range after you've placed the spell into your eyeball, and it changes the spell such that if it affected multiple targets, it now only affects one.

Once the spell is in the mage's eyeball it's too late to apply any other metamagic, and things like chain spell would be negated by the use of occular spell.

[Rubik]

Rubik:

Ocular Spell only grants the 60' range after you've placed the spell into your eyeball, and it changes the spell such that if it affected multiple targets, it now only affects one.

Once the spell is in the mage's eyeball it's too late to apply any other metamagic, and things like chain spell would be negated by the use of occular spell.Uh...no. Otherwise, you couldn't stack metamagic, which is in fact allowed by the rules, and Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat like any other. You can use one metamagic feat to qualify for another, just like you can use a racial template to qualify for a second one. You stack in the most beneficial order and proceed from there.

[Pickford]

Uh...no. Otherwise, you couldn't stack metamagic, which is in fact allowed by the rules, and Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat like any other. You can use one metamagic feat to qualify for another, just like you can use a racial template to qualify for a second one. You stack in the most beneficial order and proceed from there.

You can stack metamagic, however Ocular spell has requirements that undo other metamagic, it's as simple as that.

[Maginomicon]

Uh...no. Otherwise, you couldn't stack metamagic, which is in fact allowed by the rules, and Ocular Spell is a metamagic feat like any other. You can use one metamagic feat to qualify for another, just like you can use a racial template to qualify for a second one. You stack in the most beneficial order and proceed from there.

It's a state change. You can only apply stacking metamagic during the initial casting, and the titular benefits of Ocular Spell apply after the initial casting. Since you can't apply additional effects when they're fired-off up to 8 hours later, you can't stack Ocular Spell in the way you describe (which kills some DMM persist tricks, yeah yeah cry me a river).

[Darrin]

At 15th level, the Trickery Devotion allows you to use your duplicate as the point of origin for casting spells.

[Radar]

Personaly, I think that Greater Fireburst is not worth the effort. It's a 5th level spell with SR:yes and reflex save for half damage. Considering that you use a solid ammount of metamagic cost reducers, you will get much more milage from a Twinned Fireball plus all the boosts you already mentioned. It will give you the same damage, ocupy the same slot, affect a much larger area and have the best range a spell can get.

[AstralFire]

Personaly, I think that Greater Fireburst is not worth the effort. It's a 5th level spell with SR:yes and reflex save for half damage. Considering that you use a solid ammount of metamagic cost reducers, you will get much more milage from a Twinned Fireball plus all the boosts you already mentioned. It will give you the same damage, ocupy the same slot, affect a much larger area and have the best range a spell can get.

The problem with twinning is that, from my understanding of metamagic, metamagic effects only 'stack' multiplicatively if there is no other way for them to interact, much like how Maximize and Empower don't stack multiplicatively. A Twinned Fireball would only get to apply each metamagic to a spell separately.

[Darrin]

Shalantha's Delicate Disk (Lost Empires of Faerun), Skull Talisman (Frostburn), and Chardalyn (Lords of Darkness/Silver Marches WE) can also be used to change a spell's point of origin.

[Radar]

The problem with twinning is that, from my understanding of metamagic, metamagic effects only 'stack' multiplicatively if there is no other way for them to interact, much like how Maximize and Empower don't stack multiplicatively. A Twinned Fireball would only get to apply each metamagic to a spell separately.
Not quite: only Maximize and Empower was stated not to work on each other's effect, so it is a specific rule going against the general rule of stacking metamagic.

[AstralFire]

Not quite: only Maximize and Empower was stated not to work on each other's effect, so it is a specific rule going against the general rule of stacking metamagic.

Where is the general rule stated?

[Radar]

Where is the general rule stated?
Trick question, since the general rules of metamagic stacking only say, that the spell slot modification is cumulative and that you can't use the same feat more then once for a single casting. At least nothing more is written in PHB.

Nevertheless, if Empower and Maximize Spell have a very specific clause, that those two specific feats do not work on each other's effects (see the SRD or PHB), it does hint, that metamagic feats do stack favorably otherwise. At the very least, it's the interpretation one can see all over the Internet.

[AstralFire]

Trick question, since the general rules of metamagic stacking only say, that the spell slot modification is cumulative and that you can't use the same feat more then once for a single casting. At least nothing more is written in PHB.

Nevertheless, if Empower and Maximize Spell have a very specific clause, that those two specific feats do not work on each other's effects (see the SRD or PHB), it does hint, that metamagic feats do stack favorably otherwise. At the very least, it's the interpretation one can see all over the Internet.

Nnn. My internet search suggested otherwise, at least once you moved off of the boards with high opt-fu.

Though personally, I don't see why Metamagic *shouldn't* work that way; they vastly overvalued the majority of metamagic aside from Quicken Spell.