Paladin/Shadowcaster: Optimizing

[Xuldarinar]

An academic question and challenge. Optimizing a mix of paladin and shadowcaster. How would one go about doing this? How can one work to integrate the abilities of the classes? Can this result in an at least half-way decent character?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Arg, why can Shadowbane Stalker not advance mysteries?

A shadowcaster based on Umbral Touch/Flicker combined with Shadowbane Inquisitor would be interesting, to say the least, if not very effective.

[Feralventas]

Shadowcaster1, Battle Dancer1, Paladin4, Abjurant Champion5.

Steel Shadows Mystery is a 1st level AC buff, granting +3 Shield and +3 Armor bonus. It is an Abjuration school mystery, and Shadowcaster, while not Exactly arcane still functions very much as one.

Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor bonus adds the PrC's class levels to the bonuses of your Abjuration spells, and it is to the Bonuses, not the spell, meaning that at each level of the PrC you gain +2 AC with this spell up to +8 Shield and +8 Armor without any Armor Check Penalty. You'll need to be unarmored to use the Battle-Dancer bit, which grants Charisma to AC while unarmored, which you'll want to have high because Divine Grace adds Charisma to Saves. If you take a Fey race or species then you can take Charming the Arrow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) to make Charisma your to-hit for ranged combat, though Smite has the same effect for purposes of to-hit, though with AC as high as you're likely to have being in Melee to take advantage of it should be a higher priority.

Favored Mystery (Steel Shadows) will probably be nice at early levels, and good in case of Dispelling enemies.

So in short.
Charisma to AC, plus a nice buff.
Charisma to Saves.
Charisma to Attacks (Smite, Charming the Arrow).
Access to Shadowcaster and Paladin spell lists (UMD is your friend, cross-class it, and of course, Charisma!)
You might want to go for the Umbral Touch option too, with Extended (doubles duration and therefore number of hits it can make) and Maximized (because eff yeah 30 damage before attack buffs) maybe quickened for a faster draw or 2nd one if you want to TWF or Reach for more ranged attacks.

Btw I'm terrible at optimizing so good luck.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unfortunately, shadowcaster mysteries don't qualify you for a prestige class that requires arcane spellcasting. This is clarified in the introduction to the prc section of shadow magic.

[Feralventas]

Unfortunately, shadowcaster mysteries don't qualify you for a prestige class that requires arcane spellcasting. This is clarified in the introduction to the prc section of shadow magic.

Unfortunately and absurdly. Suggest that it be ignored at earliest opportunity as foolish design akin to feats which negate penalties that don't exist and CW Samurai.

[peacenlove]

Unfortunately, shadowcaster mysteries don't qualify you for a prestige class that requires arcane spellcasting. This is clarified in the introduction to the prc section of shadow magic.

Yet the adaptation section makes the shadowcaster draw from a divine source rather an arcane.
The inconsistencies hurt :smallannoyed:

If he draws from a divine source, any class that advances both B.A.B., paladin abilities and divine spellcasting fits (Fist of Raziel comes to mind)

[Piggy Knowles]

Hmm... It's kind of cheating, since it really doesn't play like a paladin, but maybe something like...

Paladin 2/Shadowcaster 6/Apostle of Peace 2/Mystic Theurge 10

Take DMM (Persist) and focus on mysteries that don't break your Vow of Nonviolence/Peace (there are several, including some solid BFC and the nonlethal damage mysteries like Arrow of Dusk and Life Fades), as well as the fun defensive boosts like Flicker and Bolster. You'll end up with 9th-level spells and 8th-level mysteries, which is something, I suppose.

[Xuldarinar]

Arg, why can Shadowbane Stalker not advance mysteries?

A shadowcaster based on Umbral Touch/Flicker combined with Shadowbane Inquisitor would be interesting, to say the least, if not very effective.

Like i said, a challenge.

THat is an interesting idea. They would still need a dip in another class to get that sneak attack, and they wouldn't have anything to advance their mysteries, but otherwise it could do quite well. Well done.


Shadowcaster1, Battle Dancer1, Paladin4, Abjurant Champion5.

Steel Shadows Mystery is a 1st level AC buff, granting +3 Shield and +3 Armor bonus. It is an Abjuration school mystery, and Shadowcaster, while not Exactly arcane still functions very much as one.

Abjurant Champion's Abjurant Armor bonus adds the PrC's class levels to the bonuses of your Abjuration spells, and it is to the Bonuses, not the spell, meaning that at each level of the PrC you gain +2 AC with this spell up to +8 Shield and +8 Armor without any Armor Check Penalty. You'll need to be unarmored to use the Battle-Dancer bit, which grants Charisma to AC while unarmored, which you'll want to have high because Divine Grace adds Charisma to Saves. If you take a Fey race or species then you can take Charming the Arrow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) to make Charisma your to-hit for ranged combat, though Smite has the same effect for purposes of to-hit, though with AC as high as you're likely to have being in Melee to take advantage of it should be a higher priority.

Favored Mystery (Steel Shadows) will probably be nice at early levels, and good in case of Dispelling enemies.

So in short.
Charisma to AC, plus a nice buff.
Charisma to Saves.
Charisma to Attacks (Smite, Charming the Arrow).
Access to Shadowcaster and Paladin spell lists (UMD is your friend, cross-class it, and of course, Charisma!)
You might want to go for the Umbral Touch option too, with Extended (doubles duration and therefore number of hits it can make) and Maximized (because eff yeah 30 damage before attack buffs) maybe quickened for a faster draw or 2nd one if you want to TWF or Reach for more ranged attacks.

Btw I'm terrible at optimizing so good luck.

I think that looks incredible. But.. because mysteries are not arcane spells, and it is stated that they cannot meet prerequisites as if they are ones, this falls short. Maybe with homebrew or house rules, but with those you can do anything really.


Yet the adaptation section makes the shadowcaster draw from a divine source rather an arcane.
The inconsistencies hurt :smallannoyed:

If he draws from a divine source, any class that advances both B.A.B., paladin abilities and divine spellcasting fits (Fist of Raziel comes to mind)

It isn't an inconsistency. "In a cosmology where no such plane exists, shadowcasters might draw their powers from a deity of night, functioning as divine rather than arcane casters." In this case, all it would change is fluff and would remove ASF from their mysteries when they are usable 1/day. The wording isn't best though.


Hmm... It's kind of cheating, since it really doesn't play like a paladin, but maybe something like...

Paladin 2/Shadowcaster 6/Apostle of Peace 2/Mystic Theurge 10

Take DMM (Persist) and focus on mysteries that don't break your Vow of Nonviolence/Peace (there are several, including some solid BFC and the nonlethal damage mysteries like Arrow of Dusk and Life Fades), as well as the fun defensive boosts like Flicker and Bolster. You'll end up with 9th-level spells and 8th-level mysteries, which is something, I suppose.

It is a bit, and I have thought about builds combining shadowcasters with AoP. The flavors can integrate quite well and shadowcasters can deal some decent non-lethal damage. Not an integration of the two, but it does use the paladin class so I will give you that. Paladin is an odd class to me, in that I think it is infinitely better to dip 2 levels in instead of 1.

[Xuldarinar]

One must consider the points in which the classes are compatible and the possible synergies between the two.


Table 1-1: Class Features by Ability Score Dependency
{table=head]Ability Score|Class Feature
Intelligence|Mysteries (levels)
Wisdom|Paladin Spellcasting
Charisma|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Mysteries (DCs), Smite Evil, Turn Undead [/table]

In terms of the mental ability scores, Charisma is the most important. Intelligence is required only for determining highest level mystery, so thinking ahead is important on this one. Wisdom can become a dump stat unless you are considering using the paladin spellcasting at all, which means it just needs to be above 10, or you want to utilize scrying mysteries, for which it becomes valuable.

In terms of physical ability scores. Constitution is always needed for health. What really divides it is deciding between Strength and Dexterity. Dexterity helps with ranged attacks, certain mysteries that are carried out as ranged attacks, armor class, and with melee attacks if one takes weapon finesse. Taking the Dex focus route, the Cloak of Shadows path (Steel Shadows, Sight Eclipsed, and Sharp Shadows) becomes an incredibly valuable path, and the Weapon Finesse feat can become important to have for smiting enemies. Strength, however, has its uses. When taking the strength route, I strongly advise taking Still Mystery so you do not need to put up with arcane spell failure when walking around in armor.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Arg, why can Shadowbane Stalker not advance mysteries?

A shadowcaster based on Umbral Touch/Flicker combined with Shadowbane Inquisitor would be interesting, to say the least, if not very effective.

Because Shadowbane Stalker was published a year before Tome of Magic?:smallbiggrin: