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View Full Version : Arcane caster with best features wizard and sorceror



davidbofinger
2013-11-24, 11:05 AM
This is more or less a D&D 3 or 3.5 idea for an arcane caster class. Please excuse me if my ignorance shows below.

The theory: it's more fun to cast lots of different spells than it is to cast the same one over and over again, and it's fun to see spells used that normally aren't. So let's design a class that encourages/forces the character to cast a wide variety of spells. The idea is to have them occasionally cast spells that are kind of obscure and which otherwise rarely get used.

Wizards know a lot of spells, but they have to choose which ones to prepare in advance. They can't afford to waste a spell slot on something that's only occasionally useful.

Sorcerors don't have the preparation problem but they only know a small number of spells and can't afford to learn a spell that's only occasionally useful.

Combining the best features of these classes we have a class which knows lots of spells and has no need to prepare slots. Obviously this is superior to either wizards or sorcerors and needs to be handicapped to bring it back to their level. We want a handicap that will encourage a variety of spells. The obvious one is that the character isn't allowed to keep casting the same spell again and again. How often a spell can be cast depends on how many spells of that level the character gets. For instance (plucking numbers from my bottom without thought of balance) a character who has one 4th level spell a day could only cast a particular 4th level spell if she hasn't cast it for at least 36 hours, but her delay to repeat any particular 1st level spell is only 8 hours. The severity of this penalty gets adjusted until we think the class is no better or worse than a wizard or sorceror. Or we make it more severe and give them something else to make them happy, like skill points.

In summary the character:

Learns spells like a wizard, or maybe more
Doesn't need to prepare spells, same as a sorceror.
Can't cast any particular spell if they cast it recently.


Has this been done? If so, what's it called? If not, is it interesting?

ngilop
2013-11-24, 02:36 PM
In my opinion this is a horrible idea.

Not horrible as in bad-dumb. But horrible as in why on thie green and blue earth do you want to make the most powerful of classes even more powerful


There are alot of wizard/sorcerer fixes where their power and versatility is reigned in.. but not to many that say' hey teh wizard/sorceror is too weak.. lets make them even more powerful.

Realms of Chaos
2013-11-24, 02:38 PM
I'm not quite sure I've seen this around but there seems to be at least a couple problems with this class concept:

1. It is incredibly powerful: Aside from those few times when you would need to spam a single spell, what you seem to be suggesting is strictly better than the wizard. Completely spontaneous access to the entire wizard spell list is pretty much unbeatable if played right, even if these guys would fear dispel magic.

2. Splatbooks: Yeah, this is a really big problem. If you allow lots of splatbooks (or 3rd party materials in general in your game), you are going to have about a dozen versions of any spell effect you want, making the restrictions on use completely worthless unless you have to wait a really long time (like, a week) before casting the same spell again.

If, on the other hand, you're only using the PHB, requiring a long time between castings of a single spell will leave you with just about nothing after a few days of adventuring, which isn't fun in its own right. There is no happy medium here as this class will just get better and better and ignore its own restrictions more and more as splatbooks are added (and the sad part is that the most obscure spells are ones from splat books like force ladder or ooze puppet).

3. Head Space and Time: While the idea of being able to pull out the idea spell for any situation is attractive in theory, that means in practice that you would need to either know the entire wizard spell list by heart (which is too much to expect from a lot of players, especially when splatbooks enter the picture) or to spend 15 minutes looking through the full list each round to see the most ideal spell you could cast, which slows play down to a crawl.

I'm not saying that there aren't some players who would play this and excel but it seems too narrow in practical usability to be a real class in a real campaign.

anacalgion
2013-11-24, 03:17 PM
The bad news is yes, it's broken. The good news is, Pathfinder just released it! Hooray! What's balance? I don't know!

It's in their Advanced Class Guide, which you can download for free from their website. It's called the Arcanist.

Glimbur
2013-11-24, 04:05 PM
You might look at the Spirit Shaman from Complete Divine. They are spontaneous casters (from the druid list) but they pick their spells known every day. It's not exactly what you want, and they do not get very many spells known, but it's another source of ideas for plagiarism research.

ideasmith
2013-11-24, 04:41 PM
Here is my take on 'spontaneous caster with great variety of spells'. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212047) I chose a different handicap than you, and seem (judging from the replies) to have avoided the problems Realms of Chaos listed.

Arcanist
2013-11-26, 05:46 AM
The bad news is yes, it's broken. The good news is, Pathfinder just released it! Hooray! What's balance? I don't know!

It's in their Advanced Class Guide, which you can download for free from their website. It's called the Arcanist.


:furious: THE WHAT!? :furious:

Dalebert
2013-11-26, 08:57 AM
Lots of good feedback. It is too powerful as listed. At a minimum you'd need to reign it in some more. Versatility is a huge benefit.

My first thought, though, was how tedious it would be with the additional bookkeeping, to know how long since you've cast something, especially in hours. In most games, the DM has to think for a bit when you ask how much time has passed and even then he just shrugs and guesstimates. "Oh yeah. That 80 minutes of duration on your air walk has passed." Days would be another thing because those are easier to objectively keep count of.

Realms of Chaos
2013-11-26, 09:46 AM
For the record, the arcanist is basically an arcane spirit shaman. You can "know" all spells by adding them to your spellbook but you can only spontaneously cast from a subset of "prepared spells" each day.

So, it isn't too out there (and you'll still never use it for obscure spells).

Dalebert
2013-11-26, 10:17 AM
Perhaps consider a prestige class that gives up something, bonus feats or some casting levels or some combination thereof, to have a certain number of extra spell slots to prepare spells but without any additional spells per day than a wizard. (Versatility and lots of spells per day are trade offs. You're not supposed to get both for good reason.)

It would be like the spirit shaman (I guess; not familiar) except that once you cast a spell, that particular spell is gone and you still can't cast any more spells of that level. You could, for instance, have six 4th level slots to prepare spells but still only be able to cast four from that list, and you have to mark them off once cast. That means you can't prepare a spell only one time and cast it three times that day. If you want to be able cast it multiple times, you'd still have to prepare it more than once and use up more of your extra slots.

Such a class would benefit greatly from Pearls of Power, though those are expensive at higher spell levels.

anacalgion
2013-11-26, 03:19 PM
:furious: THE WHAT!? :furious:

Not going to lie,I kinda pooped myself until I saw your name. Was worried I had made a typo and written something offensive.

My condolences. Maybe they'll fix it before they print it? (They won't)

Alabenson
2013-11-26, 03:32 PM
For the record, the arcanist is basically an arcane spirit shaman. You can "know" all spells by adding them to your spellbook but you can only spontaneously cast from a subset of "prepared spells" each day.

So, it isn't too out there (and you'll still never use it for obscure spells).

Depending on how many unique spells prepared they're allowed, that almost sounds reasonable. Still overpowered, but probably slightly weaker than Wizard due to a minor decrease in versatility.

Realms of Chaos
2013-11-26, 03:43 PM
Depending on how many unique spells prepared they're allowed, that almost sounds reasonable. Still overpowered, but probably slightly weaker than Wizard due to a minor decrease in versatility.

The power level is weird on that thing. :smallconfused:

It gets more spell slots than the wizard and comparable unique spells per day (with slightly more low-level spells and slightly less high-level spells), so it looks extremely powerful.

Then you realize that it only gets extra spell slots for having a high ability score, meaning that maximized ability scores and rings of wizardry won't help you gain more spell effects.

With fewer bonus feats, limited bloodline access, no school specialization, and no familiar (*insert lightning warrior joke here*), It really does feel like a third fourth (forgot the witch) full arcane class and that's pretty impressive.

Arcanist
2013-11-27, 12:25 AM
Not going to lie,I kinda pooped myself until I saw your name. Was worried I had made a typo and written something offensive.

My condolences. Maybe they'll fix it before they print it? (They won't)

I am only enraged because I gained no notice to the existence of this class. From what I've seen thus far, I might have over reacted... :smallredface: