Falling object rules

[Warior4356]

Am i the only one with issues with the fall dmg rules the best example i have is

http://i44.tinypic.com/212ag4g.jpg

If those characters had lets say 60 hp reasonable for a say 10the level fighter or barbarian they have a 50/50 chance of surviving having a tank dropped on them remember even though it weights 60 tons (im using an abrams for this example) the damage is caped at 20d6.THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!

[Khatoblepas]

I'm pretty sure falling damage is capped by distance fallen, not the weight of the object.

The object's weight damage dice is not capped, AFAIK.

[Naomi Li]

Remember that D&D humans are NOT our world humans by any stretch of the imagination. They can endure FAR more punishment, especially at higher levels, and are much more powerful. Magic flows through their veins and mighty are their punches.

Something being 100% lethal to an our-world human being easily survivable by a high-level character makes perfect sense.

[Warior4356]

I still want you to explain to me how even with magic 120,000 lbs of metal does not kill you.

[hymer]

Even with magic? It's magic! A wizard did it! :smallbiggrin:
It's a story. Have you never seen a movie where someone seems to get buried under falling rocks, debris or something, only to throw it off and come out looking angry? It's cool, therefore it is (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool).
If you need help imagining how it could come about, obviously the tank didn't land on them. The damage they took was from something other, like flying debris from the impact, the shockwave, or getting scraped by the near miss.

[Curmudgeon]

I still want you to explain to me how even with magic 120,000 lbs of metal does not kill you.
Well, obviously by not hitting you.

In this particular example, a tank is built to be very rugged. If it hits corner first and plows into the ground in that attitude, the other corner is going to remain considerably elevated; the tank won't crumple much at all. Tanks aren't designed as precision bombs; they're unlikely to land in a controlled/controllable fashion.

If the people under the tank make their DC 15 Reflex saves, they managed to be other than where the parts of the tank would make solid impact with the ground. Yes, a tank is very heavy. But you can also run across the width of the thing in a small fraction of a second. Getting hit by such a big, obvious improvised bomb means you really weren't paying attention to your surroundings.

No magic is required.

[Wookie-ranger]

THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!

And don't forget that if the tank would drop 9 feet it would not cause any damage at all, as the minimum falling distance for objects start at 10 feet. :smallbiggrin:

SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet


Edit:

And then there is this gem.
SRD:

Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.
If you would drop a 0.999lb, 2.56In/d sphere with a Drag coefficient of 0.50 from about 500 feet it would reach a a velocity of around 155 feet per second ( roughly 105mph!!!) when it hits the ground.
But would do no damage if it hit anyone.

[Ravens_cry]

And don't forget that if the tank would drop 9 feet it would not cause any damage at all, as the minimum falling distance for objects start at 10 feet. :smallbiggrin:

SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)



Edit:

And then there is this gem.
SRD:

If you would drop a 0.999lb, 2.56In/d sphere with a Drag coefficient of 0.50 from about 500 feet it would reach a a velocity of around 155 feet per second ( roughly 105mph!!!) when it hits the ground.
But would do no damage if it hit anyone.
Actually, it would hit the ground instantly, as things take no time to hit the ground. But, still, no damage.

[Deophaun]

It's even more ridiculous if you drop something the size of Texas on top of them, because they still get a DC 15 Reflex save for no damage. Don't even need roguespace.

[Naomi Li]

Granted, the falling rules (and falling object rules) are poorly calculated (square-cube law being utterly ignored without a handwave, anyone?) and it can sometimes be difficult coming up with an explanation for how some of the crunch actually works. Still, they are superhuman and them being able to suffer quadruple amputations in the field without medical care and then travel for months (in a cart, tied to a horse, carried by a humanoid, whatever) to receive a regeneration spell and immediately get into a fight at full power is entirely fitting.

(Surviving the tank fall could be accomplished by rolling into a ditch, maybe even making your own, getting away from where the tank would be compressing the ground and getting low, or various other methods of avoiding the majority of the damage.)

[anacalgion]

This (http://youtu.be/Wcr2nyygFxc?t=2m23s) might be relevant. Just from like 2:22 to 2:25 but still.

[Warior4356]

Again this is suprise they do not know the tank is comming quite frankly if i was the dm and they were players i would say a tank gets pushed on top of you. You die no save,

[Lightlawbliss]

I'd be impressed if you could get the tank close enough to them to do damage in the first place.

also, lvl 10 is well past the supper human threshold.

PS: falling rules say nothing about what damage the metal piercing them does or any explosion that happens from the tank does.

[Warior4356]

the tank is empty just metal

[hymer]

Again this is suprise they do not know the tank is comming quite frankly if i was the dm and they were players i would say a tank gets pushed on top of you. You die no save,

In the 2nd edition DMG, there is an interesting little discussion about what constitutes an encounter. One of the examples is two adventurers going into a mine, the DM informing them that it collapses on them, and one of them dies. The cave-in is not an encounter, as it's pointed out, since the players had no interaction with anything. Something bad just happened to them with no way of stopping it or fighting back. The text then goes on to point out how unreasonable that scenario is.
All this to say: You're describing a four-letter-word move there. What's more, you're describing a four-letter-word move made by a DM against his/her players.

[Artillery]

Wouldn't the people hit by the tank take 2d6 for the object falling 20 feet, and 600d6 for it weighing 60 tons?

Damage from a falling objects weight is not capped. That is why a half-giant psy warrior running up a wall and body slamming people after expansion is amazing. A half-giant is a medium creature that weighs 250-400lb. Go up 2 size categories increasing your weight by factor of 64.

[SiuiS]

I'm pretty sure falling damage is capped by distance fallen, not the weight of the object.

The object's weight damage dice is not capped, AFAIK.

Yup. The tank would deal 20d6 for distance, and then whatever it's weight is. That's fairly substantial.


I still want you to explain to me how even with magic 120,000 lbs of metal does not kill you.

It just sits there and is metal and never interacts with you. The existence of metal is not hazardous to my health in any amount; it has to be doing something, which your scenario does not allow.

So you need detail. Is the metal hitting me? Falling on me? How is it falling on me? Where does it hit me? What are my innate defenses? These are calculated at the exact same instant as the damage. So you do not say "you dodge and while in the air get hit and knocked aside, so you aren't crushed. You then take 59 damage.", and you so not say "you take 59 damage, so the tank falls but you roll and it bounces, and when the back comes down it clubs you but you land under it between the treads". You say both at once; you manage to avoid being killed and simultaneously only take [HP>damage].



If you would drop a 0.999lb, 2.56In/d sphere with a Drag coefficient of 0.50 from about 500 feet it would reach a a velocity of around 155 feet per second ( roughly 105mph!!!) when it hits the ground.
But would do no damage if it hit anyone.

No it would not reach a 155'/s. That is 930'/round, and maximum falling distance in one round is 250', is it not? You cannot quote a game rule about why something doesn't work and then conveniently leave out the ame rule.


Granted, the falling rules (and falling object rules) are poorly calculated (square-cube law being utterly ignored without a handwave, anyone?) and it can sometimes be difficult coming up with an explanation for how some of the crunch actually works.

The square/cube rule very directly does not apply. The game has even acknowledged this in the past, because of it did, Giants could not have a good quality of life. A giant just makes a giant-sized house with everything scaled up, and it works.

If we accept that the 3e rules are an expression of user-end physics, then we have to accept that our physics do not apply. Science is the body of knowledge which is true. Trying to apply earth physics to D&D is not scientific, it is dogmatic and short-sighted. A scientist would be compelled to adhere to the new laws, not cleave to the incorrect, old ones.


Again this is suprise they do not know the tank is comming quite frankly if i was the dm and they were players i would say a tank gets pushed on top of you. You die no save,

3.0 had some rules floating around about how in a situation in which you could not possibly react, you so not get a reflex save. Sufficient surprise (but not regular combat surprise, though I don't know how they differed), being tied or held still, and being unconscious for example, all precluded saves.

I don't know that 3.5 apecifically overwrote that, but I hope they did. Allowing situations to kill someone without a save, attack roll or anything leads to rocket tag for everyone.

[Spore]

"You die. No save."

That is pretty much the single worst thing you could DM since: "Bang! You're dead." when playing with toy guns after elementary school. Just because the DM CAN do this doesn't mean he should.

If the players on the other hand tried this against the BBEG I'd give them a health advantage vs. the villain just because this play is creative. If it kills him then so be it. I'd fiat some more minions into the rooms around that wake up because a GIANT OBJECT just crushed their master.

[hymer]

If we accept that the 3e rules are an expression of user-end physics, then we have to accept that our physics do not apply. Science is the body of knowledge which is true. Trying to apply earth physics to D&D is not scientific, it is dogmatic and short-sighted. A scientist would be compelled to adhere to the new laws, not cleave to the incorrect, old ones.

This is excellent! Thanks for sharing. :smallbiggrin:

[Warior4356]

The problem here is that even if it is tempus the war god that much metal if he doesn't know its coming should kill him when it hits. The rules as written he survives quite easily.

[hymer]

The problem here is that even if it is tempus the war god that much metal if he doesn't know its coming should kill him when it hits. The rules as written he survives quite easily.

The problem here seems to me to be that you expect story physics to work like real life physics. Which would mean no fireballs, no dragons, no barbarian rage, no beholders, no chainmail bikinis, no traps, no godly avatars, no magic items, no piles of treasure, no mighty heroes, no fantastical adventure, and highly reduced amount of sheer fun.
Has this even come up in a game for you, or are you.. What's the word? Spitballing?

[Warior4356]

Well I was pitching an idea of killing a boss using a giant piece of rock and a shrink spell or throwing a instant castle at someone. I was informed that this would not have a chance of killing him at his level

[hymer]

Then I better understand why you feel strongly about it. :smallsmile:

[Warior4356]

I figured using an instant castle and throwing it. Than saying the command word. SPLAT

[Pickford]

warior4356:

I figured using an instant castle and throwing it. Than saying the command word. SPLAT

Hrm, presumably one cannot activate the item without being in close proximity to it (otherwise the definition of ownership would seem to be, potentially, in flux).

I believe it does say you can damage nearby creatures who aren't the owner by using it however, unless they pass a reflex save.

Was the handle warrior4356 already taken?

[Warior4356]

It was once (grammer nazi) and now its a habit

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wouldn't the people hit by the tank take 2d6 for the object falling 20 feet, and 600d6 for it weighing 60 tons?

Damage from a falling objects weight is not capped. That is why a half-giant psy warrior running up a wall and body slamming people after expansion is amazing. A half-giant is a medium creature that weighs 250-400lb. Go up 2 size categories increasing your weight by factor of 64.

I feel like this is being ignored. Perhaps citing that this is an actual game rule in the back of CW would help it gain traction? I believe it's an extra d6 for every 200 pounds of weight.

[Khanjar]

Wouldn't the people hit by the tank take 2d6 for the object falling 20 feet, and 600d6 for it weighing 60 tons?

Damage from a falling objects weight is not capped. That is why a half-giant psy warrior running up a wall and body slamming people after expansion is amazing. A half-giant is a medium creature that weighs 250-400lb. Go up 2 size categories increasing your weight by factor of 64.

That all may be well and good. But just keep Newton's 3rd law in mind. Any damage you do to your opponent you suffer in kind. Unless you can also survive the ~100d6 damage you do to your opponent it seems like a bad idea to me.

[hymer]

*ED-209 voice* You have illegally made two errors in a very short space. You have twenty seconds to comply. [20 seconds pass] I am now authorized to use extreme measures.


grammer nazi

*normal, sorta, voice* That should be "grammar Nazi". This comment was brought to you by robo-pedantry. We are proud to be pedantic for you.

[The Grue]

Am i the only one with issues with the fall dmg rules the best example i have is

http://i44.tinypic.com/212ag4g.jpg

If those characters had lets say 60 hp reasonable for a say 10the level fighter or barbarian they have a 50/50 chance of surviving having a tank dropped on them remember even though it weights 60 tons (im using an abrams for this example) the damage is caped at 20d6.THIS MAKES NO SENSE!!!!!

You need to revisit your assumptions. It's a well known argument (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2) that the limit of "normal" human ability caps at about level 5 - and I do mean caps, the average human being is 1st, maybe 2nd level. Level 10 is halfway to Godhood, so when you start dropping Abrams tanks on 10th-level Barbarians you're going to see some results that don't reflect reality.

A 2nd level Barbarian using the Average stats array, assuming his high stats are Str and Con and assuming average HP rolls, has 23 HP (12 + 7 + 4). If he took Toughness, and if he's really pissed off, he has 30 (+3 from Toughness, +2/level from Rage). If those 20d6 roll average, they do 70 damage and kill him outright. If he gets lucky and every single die rolls a 1, he goes to 10 HP, then down to 6 once Rage wears off. He's nearly dead; a good whack with a battleaxe finishes him off.

Any other character class has a smaller hit die, and probably doesn't put their highest stat in Con. They're dead no matter what happens.

EDIT: And this is ignoring the actual rules for Falling Object damage, as pointed out elsewhere. 20d6 is the maximum damage a character takes from falling off a cliff.

[Kelb_Panthera]

According to wikipedia an abrams tank weighs about 68 tons. That's 680d6 damage if it falls on you. That's an average of 2380 damage (and with that many dice it -will- be close to average). I defy you to show me ..... anything in first party D&D 3.5 that can survive that.

[Arcanist]

According to wikipedia an abrams tank weighs about 68 tons. That's 680d6 damage if it falls on you. That's an average of 2380 damage (and with that many dice it -will- be close to average). I defy you to show me ..... anything in first party D&D 3.5 that can survive that.

Define "first party". Do you mean Core only? Because a Tarasque can technically survive it... As long as the Tank doesn't use a wish or a miracle to finish the Tarasque off :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Anything incorporeal has a 50% chance of surviving it.

[Gwendol]

I find it amusing that a dragon actively trying to crush ant-like humans under its mighty bulk does substantially less damage than simply falling on top of them like dead meat.

[The Grue]

I find it amusing that a dragon actively trying to crush ant-like humans under its mighty bulk does substantially less damage than simply falling on top of them like dead meat.

I garuntee that if I drop you from a skyscraper and you hit somebody, they'll be more injured than if you'd punched them.

Of course punching them means you aren't seriously injured yourself, but if you aren't concerned with your own well-being you can do a lot more damage at the expense of your own health. Plenty of historical evidence to back up that claim in the real world.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Define "first party". Do you mean Core only? Because a Tarasque can technically survive it... As long as the Tank doesn't use a wish or a miracle to finish the Tarasque off :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Anything incorporeal has a 50% chance of surviving it.

First party means printed by wizards of the coast.

(Personally, I don't include anything in dragon magazine with that since it was published by Paizo under a WotC license.)

The tarrasque can't be killed by anything except wish or miracle. It can and will, however, be rendered unconscious for the wish to be useable.

Incorporeals will -die- if the percentile die says so, there's no question that the damage will be enough.

[Arcanist]

First party means printed by wizards of the coast.

I am aware of this, it's just most people say "Core" or something to that effect when creating a "limit" towards something. Just saying "first party" just screams for a Half-Black Dragon War-Troll to walk in with a wand of Favor of the Martyr and eat that damage like a champ.


The tarrasque can't be killed by anything except wish or miracle. It can and will, however, be rendered unconscious for the wish to be useable.

But it won't die from the damage. :smalltongue:


Incorporeals will -die- if the percentile die says so, there's no question that the damage will be enough.

Yes, but if the percentile die says "no", the damage can be as high as it wants and it will never amount to anything. :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I am aware of this, it's just most people say "Core" or something to that effect when creating a "limit" towards something. Just saying "first party" just screams for a Half-Black Dragon War-Troll to walk in with a wand of Favor of the Martyr and eat that damage like a champ.I suppose I could've said something to the effect of any first party -printed creature-, as in creature that has already been printed -not- some blending of printed creature with several templates and a couple spell effects.

That just felt a bit long-winded. :smallamused:




But it won't die from the damage. :smalltongue:Whooped is whooped. Unconscious and one action away from dead is close enough for my liking.




Yes, but if the percentile die says "no", the damage can be as high as it wants and it will never amount to anything. :smalltongue:

Come to think of it, the percentile doesn't even come up unless the metal is enhanced as a weapon. So incorporeals don't even have to worry about it. I rather suspect my point got through in spite of me being technically incorrect in only the most pedantic of ways.

[hymer]

anything in first party D&D 3.5 that can survive [2380 damage].

Anything with regeneration survives it. Incorporeals don't take the damage to begin with. A conjurer can jaunt away. Really, the possibilities are numerous.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Anything with regeneration survives it. Incorporeals don't take the damage to begin with. A conjurer can jaunt away. Really, the possibilities are numerous.

Okay how about I phrase it this way: what can -survive- that much damage; not avoid it, or convert it, but actually survive taking that much damage.

[self criticism] Should've known this crowd would be too pedantic for me to be able to be that non-specific. [/self criticism]

[hymer]

*plinks his 'Proud to be Pedantic' button and smiles infuriatingly*

[Mr Adventurer]

Anyone with Delay Death (and optionally, Beastlands Ferocity). Or a 19th level Knight.

Unless what you really mean to ask is "what has that many hit points", in which case Shambling Mound shenanigans?

[Warior4356]

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects. Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object's weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table 8-4: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

Example: A magic flying ship tilts to one side and drops a 400-pound stone statue (a petrified comrade) overboard. The statue deals 2d6 points of damage to anything it strikes by virtue of its weight alone. If the ship were 100 feet in the air at the time, the falling statue would deal an additional 9d6 points of damage, for a total of 11d6.

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. For example, since a 30-pound metal sphere must fall 50 feet to deal damage (1d6 points of damage), such a sphere that fell 150 feet would deal 3d6 points of damage. Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

Table 8-4: Damage from Falling Objects

Object
Weight Falling
Distance
200-101 lb. 20 ft.
100-51 lb. 30 ft.
50-31 lb. 40 ft.
30-11 lb. 50 ft.
10-6 lb. 60 ft.
5-1 lb. 70 ft.

[Darrin]

For each 200 pounds of an object's weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).


Some have argued that the 20d6 max only applies to the distance dropped, while Xd6 according to weight is still uncapped. However, the Rules Compendium "fixed" this, according to page 52:

"A falling object can deal a maximum of 20d6 points of damage."

So the 60-ton tank does the same damage as a Ford F150 pickup truck.

[The Grue]

snip

Are you going to make a point, or just passive-aggresively repost the entire SRD entry on fallling damage when a link and a quote would suffice?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Some have argued that the 20d6 max only applies to the distance dropped, while Xd6 according to weight is still uncapped. However, the Rules Compendium "fixed" this, according to page 52:

"A falling object can deal a maximum of 20d6 points of damage."

So the 60-ton tank does the same damage as a Ford F150 pickup truck.

Meh. The rules compendium screwed up as many things as it fixed (possibly more) and I tend to disregard it as the money grab that I feel it was. It also sits in a weird place in regards to the primary source rule for which book takes precedence in the event of a rules dispute.

Suffice to say, this is a point where it's rather obviously wrong. Take that for whatever you think it's worth.

[Warior4356]

My point is that when a tank falls on you and the metal coming apart cuts and breaks you into a dozen pieces and most of your bones are broken as you bleed out under the tank if you heart of head doesn't get crushed. instead. 20d6 and a pinning check.

[Luciandevine]

Remember that D&D humans are NOT our world humans by any stretch of the imagination. They can endure FAR more punishment, especially at higher levels, and are much more powerful. Magic flows through their veins and mighty are their punches.

Something being 100% lethal to an our-world human being easily survivable by a high-level character makes perfect sense.

I can't help but agree. In the ELH it mentions that being submerged in lava is "only" 20d6 fire damage per round. 100% lethal to any one of us, but an epic fighter can last at least a couple rounds, depending of course on what and why he's in the lava, lol.

[Warior4356]

Her is another point arrows weight a lot less than a pound. so I shoot one from a bow and you take a lot of damage. However when I drop it from 1000 ft up and it hits terminal velocity you take no damage if it hits your skull.

[Pickford]

*ED-209 voice* You have illegally made two errors in a very short space. You have twenty seconds to comply. [20 seconds pass] I am now authorized to use extreme measures.



*normal, sorta, voice* That should be "grammar Nazi". This comment was brought to you by robo-pedantry. We are proud to be pedantic for you.

Except this wouldn't be grammar, it would be spelling. Ahem. :smallamused:


adding an additional

This however is where grammar comes into play.

Base damage formula is: First 200 lbs is 4d6 (thanks CW), each additional 200lbs is another 1d6, plus 1d6 per 10' fallen. So a 2,000lb object 13d6, if it falls 200' that's another 20d6, for a total of 33d6.

[hymer]

Except this wouldn't be grammar, it would be spelling. Ahem. :smallamused:

Well spotted, and congratulations! I am authorized to offer the position of vice-semi-rear-commodore to anyone catching the bad note and making it known. :smallbiggrin:

[The Grue]

My point is that when a tank falls on you and the metal coming apart cuts and breaks you into a dozen pieces and most of your bones are broken as you bleed out under the tank if you heart of head doesn't get crushed. instead. 20d6 and a pinning check.


I can't help but agree. In the ELH it mentions that being submerged in lava is "only" 20d6 fire damage per round. 100% lethal to any one of us, but an epic fighter can last at least a couple rounds, depending of course on what and why he's in the lava, lol.

For responses to both these points, see my post on Page 1 on rethinking your assumptions about the system.


Her is another point arrows weight a lot less than a pound. so I shoot one from a bow and you take a lot of damage. However when I drop it from 1000 ft up and it hits terminal velocity you take no damage if it hits your skull.

There's nothing in the rules that says an object of less than 1lb doesn't inflict falling damage. Extrapolating the table you copied into your earlier post, we can say that an object weighing less than a pound has a falling distance incriment of 80 ft; after falling 1000 ft it does 12d6 damage to anyone standing under it.

Of course, a good DM would require you to make a ranged attack roll at a massive penalty to hit someone by dropping an arrow from a thousand feet up.

[Warior4356]

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. For example, since a 30-pound metal sphere must fall 50 feet to deal damage (1d6 points of damage), such a sphere that fell 150 feet would deal 3d6 points of damage. Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

[Slipperychicken]

My point is that when a tank falls on you and the metal coming apart cuts and breaks you into a dozen pieces and most of your bones are broken as you bleed out under the tank if you heart of head doesn't get crushed. instead. 20d6 and a pinning check.

1. The 20d6 is from height alone, before the weight. Add [tanks weight/200lb] to the number of d6s. For example, if a tank weighs 67.6 tons (135,200lb, wikipedia), then it's (135,200/200lb = 676) going to deal 676d6 before height.

2. D&D hit point scaling is silly. "Real" people are the level 1-3 commoners for whom the tank is instant death. Level 10 guys are like Hercules or the Hulk, who clobber demigods for sport, survive falling from orbit, and rip open tanks like they're tinfoil.

3. Roll spot to notice the falling tank, then roll reflex. For such a large object, making it reflex/half seems like a reasonable houserule.

[Phase]

Makes sense. If we were to extrapolate from the chart above, one would need to drop an object weighing less than one pound from 80 feet or so up in order to deal damage. If the individual were throwing the object down with intent to hit their target, that's an attack roll and I'd say would deal damage based on any object they throw. In the case of the arrow, either it's being dropped, in which case it would tumble and toss in the air without sufficient force behind it (Gravity exerting only about 0.02 newtons or so on a falling arrow) to really hit on target. You'd be better of firing the arrow straight down.

Fact of the matter is, if it's less than a pound, the likelihood of it a. hitting and b. having any kind of force behind it is minimal at best, enough that in the case that something minimally heavy does fall from high enough and hit someone at ground level with enough force to deal damage, that's more of a DM arbitrated plot-happening. Not that the two or three damage would be all that plot central.

Dropping small objects aside, the main issue here (of a limit of 20d6 and/or the feasibility of surviving 680d6 damage) is, as others have said, a moot point. The bottom line is that this is not Collisions and Contusions, it's Dungeons and Dragons. It's a bad GM that says "No, you can't drop a giant rock on the bad guy because it wouldn't work." It's the worse GM that says "Alright. He takes 1300 damage, gets no save to avoid any of this, and is crushed instantly."

Does it make no sense for a standard human being to survive having a Dodge Durango dropped on their head? Yes. Does it make no sense that by the merest act of belief, a cleric can summon a being made out of somehow coherent lightning and force it to do his being? Yes. Do these things make the game more fun? Also yes. This is a game about dragons and magic and swords that can cut through ghosts. The conceit inherent in real world physics holds no merit here.

[TuggyNE]

My point is that when a tank falls on you and the metal coming apart cuts and breaks you into a dozen pieces and most of your bones are broken as you bleed out under the tank if you heart of head doesn't get crushed. instead. 20d6 and a pinning check.

That point was not in fact supported by the rules you posted, which only cap distance d6s, not weight d6s.

[Slipperychicken]

Fact of the matter is, if it's less than a pound, the likelihood of it a. hitting and b. having any kind of force behind it is minimal at best, enough that in the case that something minimally heavy does fall from high enough and hit someone at ground level with enough force to deal damage, that's more of a DM arbitrated plot-happening. Not that the two or three damage would be all that plot central.


I've heard that a coin dropped from a skyscraper would land with enough force to kill someone.

It's like how a football-sized object falling from space will leave a surprisingly-large crater, or how a fingernail-sized piece of metal can be propelled with enough force to break through a human skull.



a standard human being

This is where the argument falls apart. Even nonmagical characters stop being ordinary around 3rd level. When a single crossbow bolt to the head cannot possibly KO a person, he's a fantasy* hero, not a normal human.

*D&D's genre is heroic fantasy. That means some characters therein go far beyond what real humans are capable of.

[TETanglebrooke]

It's a game, not a reality simulator.

[Karnith]

Okay how about I phrase it this way: what can -survive- that much damage; not avoid it, or convert it, but actually survive taking that much damage.
680d6 damage? A Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm#devastationBeetle) can, on average, survive it. Or does that not count as 3.5?

[TETanglebrooke]

I just remembered about this goliath I played once. he wore full plate and liked to get on top of something tall, use enlarge person and just fall on whomever was under him. Sadly the set up rarely fell into place.

[Kelb_Panthera]

680d6 damage? A Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm#devastationBeetle) can, on average, survive it. Or does that not count as 3.5?

Should've known there'd be -one- creature with that many HP. Stupid epic handbook that I never crack.

[TypoNinja]

I've heard that a coin dropped from a skyscraper would land with enough force to kill someone.


It would not. The math behind it isn't even that hard to work out, or for the more entertaining option watch the MythBusters episode where they rig a rifle to shoot a penny with the same force it'd hit the ground with and watch Adam get shot with it.

It's a matter of wind resistance. The mass of a coin is so slight, and its surface area is relatively large that its terminal velocity is not high enough to cause real damage.

It'd hurt, no question (Adam does some cussing), you'd definitely know you got tagged, but were talking bruise rather than broken bones in terms of damage.


It's like how a football-sized object falling from space will leave a surprisingly-large crater, or how a fingernail-sized piece of metal can be propelled with enough force to break through a human skull.

These are different cases, the core of a meteorite is made of much sterner stuff than your average coin, and are quite large. Even the small ones have enough mass to break bones if swung in a sock, never mind falling outta the sky.

Likewise bullets move at hilariously high speeds to make up for their small mass.

So D&D is sort of right in saying objects weighing less than a lb do no falling damage, typically they wouldn't, especially if were counting in d6's. Its pretty fair to say anything that small falling is doing less damage than a short sword being swung at you.

Sure there are edge cases, but that's what a DM is for.

[Der_DWSage]

I've heard that a coin dropped from a skyscraper would land with enough force to kill someone.

It's like how a football-sized object falling from space will leave a surprisingly-large crater, or how a fingernail-sized piece of metal can be propelled with enough force to break through a human skull.

Actually, Mythbusters definitively disproved that one. Terminal velocity is a thing, and a terminal velocity penny is only going to sting. It might be one heckuva sting and knock you over from surprise, but it's only a sting, nowhere near a kill. It might break a finger if it landed in exactly the right way. (Bullets go faster than terminal velocity, and those football-sized asteroids started as much larger ones.)

EDIT:Ninja'd by a Ninja. Who'da thunkit?

[The Grue]

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. For example, since a 30-pound metal sphere must fall 50 feet to deal damage (1d6 points of damage), such a sphere that fell 150 feet would deal 3d6 points of damage. Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

I like how you cherrypick the arguments you're going to respond to and ignore all others. I also like how you copypaste rules from the SRD in lieu of making a counterargument, again where a link and a quick statement would do.

From these two facts I conclude that you aren't actually interested in discussing this issue so much as you are stoking an internet argument. Which means I'm done with this thread.