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View Full Version : [3.5] - Psionic Shot, Psychic Strike, and the Manyshots



IAmTehDave
2013-11-24, 10:55 PM
(Note: This is a question (mostly) in a vacuum. This is not intended to strike an argument over the optimality (is that the right word?) of the abilities/feats in question, just about how they interact)

So I've been trying to figure out how Psychic Strike and Psionic Shot interact with multi-hit single attacks. (Manyshot and Greater Manyshot, to be specific. Though if there are any else please let the class know)

From the SRD, to refresh your memory about the items in question:

Psionic Shot:
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.
Psychic Strike (Su):
As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. (Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)
Benefit
As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).

For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of -6 for three arrows and -8 for four).

Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.

Special
Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
Benefit:
When you use the Manyshot feat, you can fire each arrow at a different target instead of firing all of them at the same target. You make a separate attack roll for each arrow, regardless of whether you fire them at separate targets or the same target. Your precision-based damage applies to each arrow fired, and, if you score a critical hit with more than one of the arrows, each critical hit deals critical damage.

1a) Does Manyshot apply Psionic Shot damage to each arrow?
1b) Does Greater Manyshot?

2a) Does Manyshot apply Psychic Strike damage to each arrow?
2b) Does Greater Manyshot?

Bonus questions:
B1) Does Psychic Strike add to the physical damage of the attack, or is it untyped bonus damage? (Note: The ability only works against creatures with a mind.) Is this bonus damage affected by DR at all? If so, how?

B2) How does the Splitting enchantment factor in to all of the above nonsense?

TuggyNE
2013-11-24, 11:21 PM
1a) Yes. There is only one attack, that happens to do damage several times.
1b) No. Multiple attack rolls means multiple attacks, for better or for worse.
2a) No. It's only the next creature successfully hit.
2b) No.

B1) It's bonus damage, and is not affected by DR or energy resistance.
B2) Like Manyshot, it reuses the attack roll, so it doubles the (Greater) Psionic Shot damage dealt, but does not affect Psychic Strike.

Just to Browse
2013-11-24, 11:37 PM
I'm reading this now and... god that's terrible.

RAW makes me hurt.

IAmTehDave
2013-11-25, 12:02 AM
1a) Yes. There is only one attack, that happens to do damage several times.
1b) No. Multiple attack rolls means multiple attacks, for better or for worse.
2a) No. It's only the next creature successfully hit.
2b) No.

B1) It's bonus damage, and is not affected by DR or energy resistance.
B2) Like Manyshot, it reuses the attack roll, so it doubles the (Greater) Psionic Shot damage dealt, but does not affect Psychic Strike.

Thanks. It looks like, then, that Psionic Shot is a much better investment of a move action than Psychic Strike. (Except, of course, when the target is somehow immune to the weapon damage, but not the psychic strike damage)

Sidenote: If you use Manyshot with a splitting weapon, do you only make 2 attack rolls? Or is it one roll for the Manyshot group, and one for each split-off arrow?

TuggyNE
2013-11-25, 02:22 AM
I'm reading this now and... god that's terrible.

RAW makes me hurt.

I'm sorry. For what it's worth, it's mostly painful to work out the weird kinks; the implications are not so horrifyingly stupid as in some cases.


Thanks. It looks like, then, that Psionic Shot is a much better investment of a move action than Psychic Strike. (Except, of course, when the target is somehow immune to the weapon damage, but not the psychic strike damage)

Yes. Soulknife is not a good class, in whole or in part.


Sidenote: If you use Manyshot with a splitting weapon, do you only make 2 attack rolls? Or is it one roll for the Manyshot group, and one for each split-off arrow?

Unless I'm seriously mistaken, you don't make an extra attack roll for Splitting (or arrowsplit either): it reuses the attack roll you already made.

IAmTehDave
2013-11-25, 12:46 PM
Yes. Soulknife is not a good class, in whole or in part.

Unless I'm seriously mistaken, you don't make an extra attack roll for Splitting (or arrowsplit either): it reuses the attack roll you already made.

Soulknife works just fine in the campaign I'm in. Please refer to the note at the top of OP.

As for Splitting,
"Make a separate attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus."

Psyren
2013-11-25, 01:32 PM
For what it's worth, PF Manyshot does specify that non-precision bonuses apply to each arrow in the attack(e.g. favored enemy). So psionic shot would apply to each arrow there too, and there's therefore justification for treating it that way in 3.5.

Yuki Akuma
2013-11-25, 01:38 PM
For what it's worth, PF Manyshot does specify that non-precision bonuses apply to each arrow in the attack(e.g. favored enemy). So psionic shot would apply to each arrow there too, and there's therefore justification for treating it that way in 3.5.

"Because someone published their houserules in a bunch of hardback books" isn't a good justification for changing the rules. Use the Pathfinder rules if you're playing Pathfinder, certainly, but you shouldn't feel compelled to shoehorn all of the changes into 3.5 too.

Psyren
2013-11-25, 02:00 PM
"Because someone published their houserules in a bunch of hardback books" isn't a good justification for changing the rules. Use the Pathfinder rules if you're playing Pathfinder, certainly, but you shouldn't feel compelled to shoehorn all of the changes into 3.5 too.

It's not a change though. By RAW, 3.5 Manyshot is one attack that hits twice, and so both arrows would get Psionic Shot - just as TuggyNE said.

I was merely pointing out that the PF designers noted this phenomenon and spelled it out when they brought it over.

TuggyNE
2013-11-25, 05:07 PM
As for Splitting,
"Make a separate attack roll for each missile using the same attack bonus."

Hmm. I guess my memory was wrong, then.

In that case, it acts like Greater Manyshot, and doesn't add either Psionic Shot or Psychic Strike.

Yuki Akuma
2013-11-26, 07:19 AM
It's not a change though. By RAW, 3.5 Manyshot is one attack that hits twice, and so both arrows would get Psionic Shot - just as TuggyNE said.

I was merely pointing out that the PF designers noted this phenomenon and spelled it out when they brought it over.

Oh. I apologise. Well, carry on.

mabriss lethe
2013-11-26, 09:16 AM
If you're going to play a soulknife, yeah, it's generally a more efficient use of action economy to ditch psychic strike. Thankfully, there's an ACF for that. It replaces each instance where your P.strike upgrades with a bonus feat. The condition for those feats is that they must improve the mindblade in some fashion.

IAmTehDave
2013-11-26, 11:54 AM
If you're going to play a soulknife, yeah, it's generally a more efficient use of action economy to ditch psychic strike. Thankfully, there's an ACF for that. It replaces each instance where your P.strike upgrades with a bonus feat. The condition for those feats is that they must improve the mindblade in some fashion.

Alas, no ACFs for this campaign. And Psychic Strike has gotten me some extra damage in on DR mobs so I like it for that. (Also, Illumine Soul wouldn't allow any ACFs for its psychic strike progression, so I'd be getting it anyway. Yes the class makes sense for this campaign.)

Back on topic: If I can convince my DM to allow splitting on a soulbow, how does that interact with Manyshot?

1) two attack rolls, each comprised of however many arrows originally fired
2) One attack roll for the original grouping (as per manyshot RAW), then one attack roll per split arrow
3) two attack rolls per original arrow fired (as per Splitting RAW)

Man, intersections of RAW are mind-numbing...