Unique uses for horrible classes?

[CyberThread]

Are their any uses or dips or special builds that can only be done or done better with generally looked down on classes?


*Topics of looked down on *

Dragon Shaman, Adept, Battle Dancer, Divine Mind, Healer, Jester, knight,ninja, mystic, soulknife, wilder.

[Psyren]

Not sure why Mystic is on the list, they are solid T2.

A unique one for Soulknife is a VoP archer.

[JaronK]

Well, the Adept spell list is a great source of spells for an Archivist, so there's that. Soul Knife + Soulbow + Vow of Poverty can be pretty hilarious too.

JaronK

[Kerim]

I find Dragon Shaman to be a nice dip class for the Vigor aura if the DM doesn't allow Draconic Aura to give that to you.

And, of course, Battle Dancer dip for Cha to AC. Yum.

[Big Fau]

Knights are good for preventing Tumble. The Wilder also makes great Astral Constructs.

[Venger]

Knights are good for preventing Tumble. The Wilder also makes great Astral Constructs.

They make great mage slayers, and can be fairly competent AOO/lockdown guys. a 3 lvl dip gets all the goodies necessary.

[DeathOfAMailman]

You might be interested in checking out the various Iron Chef threads. They basically take underused prestige classes and see how they could be utilized in a fun and effective manner.

[subject42]

Was it Shneeky or JaronK that did the infinite fear loop on the CW Samurai? That was a pretty impressive trick to pull off.

[eggynack]

Adepts are looked down on? But they're so cool. I mean, they're obviously worse than most casters, but they'd be the first place I'd look in a low tier game, cause they have high versatility for their tier. It's just really slow versatility.

[Thurbane]

Dragon Disciple is a decent 4 level dip for a melee type, if your build doesnt mind about losing casting levels.

You only lose +1 BAB, and get natural weapons, natural armor and some decent stats boosts.

It can also be a lead in for a Soul Eater, giving you your natural weapon if you don't have one already. Duskblade 5/Dragon Disciple 4/Soul Eater X (not in that exact order). Take the Spell Drain feat and (depending on the reading of SE level drain) you can Power Attack with a two hander, and also bite to inflict negative levels and steal spells.

[AstralFire]

The Wilder shoots up in use with any of the many variants (both official and otherwise) that remove or reduce Psychic Enervation, which is really its main flaw. It will never be able to abuse esoteric power combos the way that other psionic manifesters can, but that's okay - it doesn't need to, it becomes horribly efficient while destroying the action economy, and is arguably the most deadly full-caster class to catch 'unprepared'.

[nedz]

I think you might be confusing Dragon Shaman with Dragon Disciple ?
Dragon Shaman doesn't give you natural weapons.

[TuggyNE]

Was it Shneeky or JaronK that did the infinite fear loop on the CW Samurai? That was a pretty impressive trick to pull off.

It was Shneekey. (Why is that so hard to spell?)

[Thurbane]

I think you might be confusing Dragon Shaman with Dragon Disciple ?
Dragon Shaman doesn't give you natural weapons.
Exactly what I did, getting the names mixed up. Thank you. Edited.

[Rubik]

Monks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) are great for unloading multiple magic weapon enhancements onto their unarmed strikes for really cheap. Sure, Tashalatora is about 99 times more effective, but if you're in a low-tier game and need some heavy-hitting firepower, monks make great platforms for WBL abuse.

[TETanglebrooke]

High Level Fighters make great paper weights.

[Novawurmson]

High Level Fighters make great paper weights.

Putting that heavy armor proficiency to good work, I see.

Fun fact: If you're playing in Eberron, Adepts get a domain!

[Incanur]

Taking a level of battle dancer gets you monk-like unarmed strike without sacrificing base attack bonus. No other class that I know of does that.

Wilders can be plenty strong, so I'm not sure why they're here.

[Venusaur]

Adepts get you into a special prestige class called Hexer, IIRC. Commoner gets into survivor as well.

[Ardantis]

Find the Iron Chef in the Playground Optimization Threads! You'd be AMAZED at some of the designs- they are truly breathtaking, using sub-optimal classes to build inCREDible optimized characters.

[Thurbane]

Adepts were pretty much the only class that could get into Hexer, until Archivist came along. There are a few other ways to shoehorn yourself into the class using feats.

Hexer is a pretty amazing PrC: +10 BAB, full 10/10 casting progression (arcane or divine), add a Sorc/Wiz spell to your spells known/class list every 2 levels, plus a fairly decent ability to inflict statuses on opponents with your Hex.

There will be a Hobgoblin Ranger 1/Archivist X/Hexer X boss in an upcoming campaign I run.

[AlexanderRM]

Dragon Disciple is a decent 4 level dip for a melee type, if your build doesnt mind about losing casting levels.

You only lose +1 BAB, and get natural weapons, natural armor and some decent stats boosts.


You also lose any actual class features your mele class might've had, I think.

As I understand it (although this is from actually looking at it myself rather than TO boards) the problem with Dragon Disciple is that it's a 10 level PRC the main purpose of which is to give you a template worth +4 LA. It gives you that plus basic HD traits (which IMO should be granted with LA anyway- maybe replace LA with the requirement to take extra monster HD, possibly slightly higher to compensate?) and a couple bonus Sorceror spells (and you spend a level on spontaneous casting to qualify, now I think about it). I think it might make a lot more sense as a 5-level PRC (this would also remove the nonsensical epic dragon disciple). Or just as a re-fluffed Half-Dragon with something like the monsters as classes rules, where you can take it after low levels.

[Darth Stabber]

Dragon shaman are decent in gestalt, it's a passive class and those always have a role in gestalt, especially with cha classes (i've enjoyed it alongside sorcerer).

[(Un)Inspired]

There's a monk in my wizard's study that runs on a treadmill all day to generate electricity to power my wizard's reading light.

Does that count?

[Spore]

My melee rogue makes for a GREAT tank. I can't hit anything I can't disable my traps, but BOY can I take a beating or what?

[Kudaku]

I know you didn't list the warmage but I'd say that it's generally frowned on compared to the other blaster options available - however it is a very handy class to build an NPC or encounter with a spellcaster. Compared to other casters the class is very easy to run for a DM with limited prep time.

[Chronos]

I once put together a smiting-based build, where it was advantageous to have as many different types of smite as possible. Which meant dipping both Samurai (for Kiai Smite) and Soulborn (for Smite Opposition), both of which are generally considered pathetic.

[ShurikVch]

I once put together a smiting-based build, where it was advantageous to have as many different types of smite as possible. Which meant dipping both Samurai (for Kiai Smite) and Soulborn (for Smite Opposition), both of which are generally considered pathetic.

What was a build?
How many smites/day?
Have a Smite Evil & Smite Good at the same time?

[Chronos]

It was a gestalt build, Killoren Half-celestial LA 3/fighter 1/ordained champ 1/samurai 3/swordsage 1/shadowbane inq. 2/soulborn 1/fighter +1/tattooed monk 1/crusader 6 // cleric 5/ordained champ +1/cleric 2/ordainded champ +1/cleric +11. Lemme see if the table works...
{table=head]ECL|Class 1| Class 2| Feats| Smites| Special
1|Cleric 1|LA 1|Weapon Focus, Sapphire Smite|3: Unnatural, evil, any|Spells, Domains: Destruction and War, Turn Undead, Half-Celestial traits
2|Cleric 2|LA 2|3|
3|Cleric 3|LA 3| Initiate of Bahamut |4: Evil|
4|Cleric 4|fighter 1|Power Attack|4|
5|Cleric 5|Ordained Champion 1||4|Strength domain, modified spontaneous casting
6|Ordained Champion 2|Samurai 1|EWP: Bastard, Incarnum Spellshaping, Diehard|5: Any|
7|Cleric 6|Samurai 2|Two-Weap fighting|5|
8|Cleric 7|Samurai 3||6: any|Kiai Smite
9|Ordained Champion 3|Swordsage 1|Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Smiting|6|Channel Spell, Divine Bulwark, Quick to Act +1, discipline focus (weapon focus), Maneuvers
10|Cleric 8|Shadowbane Inquisitor 1||6|Absolute Conviction, Pierce Shadows
11|Cleric 9|Shadowbane Inquisitor 2||7: Corrupt|Sacred Stealth +4, Smite Corruption
12|Cleric 10|Soulborn 1| Bonus essentia|8: Opposition|Smite Opposition
13|Cleric 11|Fighter 2|Improved Grapple|8|
14|Cleric 12|Crusader 1||8|Furious Counterstrike, Steely Resolve 5, maneuvers
15|Cleric 13|Crusader 2|Endurance|8|Indomitable Soul
16|Cleric 14|Tattooed monk 1 ||9: Any|Lion Tattoo
17|Cleric 15|Crusader 3||9|Zealous Surge
18|Cleric 16|Crusader 4|Shape Soulmeld: Bluesteel Bracers|9|Steely Resolve 10
19|Cleric 17|Crusader 5||9|
20|Cleric 18|Crusader 6||10: Any|Smite[/table]


Net effect was ten different forms of smite, each usable four additional times per day (in addition to whatever the classes gave), and each doing an extra four damage on top of whatever the base ability called for. Plus full cleric casting, and nearly-full BAB.

[BWR]

Best use for anything useless: ponies (http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Koma).

[Fax Celestis]

You also lose any actual class features your mele class might've had, I think.

...why would that happen? You don't ever lose class features when you take a new level (unless its alignment swapping shenangians like becoming LN as a paladin).

[OldTrees1]

...why would that happen? You don't ever lose class features when you take a new level (unless its alignment swapping shenangians like becoming LN as a paladin).

you are forgoing class features you might have had from the levels in your melee class you didn't take (and took Dragon Disciple instead)

[Fax Celestis]

Ah. Well, by and large, it's just a trade. There are worse features for a beatstick than Dragon Disciple's stuff.

[tyckspoon]

you are forgoing class features you might have had from the levels in your melee class you didn't take (and took Dragon Disciple instead)

..what class features? Most of the entry classes that would make Dragon Disciple look like a good option don't have anything meaningful to give up. Especially if you are looking at a 10/10 split for a full level 20 arrangement; they're usually heavily frontloaded, so you almost certainly have everything useful from them out of that first 10 levels.

[OldTrees1]

..what class features? Most of the entry classes that would make Dragon Disciple look like a good option don't have anything meaningful to give up. Especially if you are looking at a 10/10 split for a full level 20 arrangement; they're usually heavily frontloaded, so you almost certainly have everything useful from them out of that first 10 levels.

I was clearing up a misunderstanding about the wording of a previous post.