Mundane dragon slayer.

[G.Cube]

What pre-epic mundane build has the best chance of solo killing an adult dragon?

What pre-epic fixed list caster build has the best chance of solo killing an adult dragon?

Is it possible for a pre-epic tier three or weaker class to solo killing an adult dragon?

Note: I'd prefer it if the build wasn't built entierly based around umd, a little is fine, but basically turning yourself into a full caster through use of wands sort of defeats the idea of this challenge.

[Snowbluff]

1) UBERCHARGER! That can fly.

2) Cast Shivering Touch, make a simulacrum/ice assassin, or be the mailman.

3) T3? Warblades, Beguilers, Factotum... I think most of the classes there can solo a dragon. Incarnates, Truenamers, and Healers can all cast Gate by level 20.

[G.Cube]

1) UBERCHARGER! That can fly.

2) Cast Shivering Touch, make a simulacrum/ice assassin, or be the mailman.

3) T3? Warblades, Beguilers, Factotum... I think most of the classes there can solo a dragon. Incarnates, Truenamers, and Healers can all cast Gate by level 20.

These spells are available to non-full casters?

[Red Fel]

What pre-epic mundane build has the best chance of solo killing an adult dragon?

What pre-epic fixed list caster build has the best chance of solo killing an adult dragon?

Is it possible for a pre-epic tier three or weaker class to solo killing an adult dragon?

Note: I'd prefer it if the build wasn't built entierly based around umd, a little is fine, but basically turning yourself into a full caster through use of wands sort of defeats the idea of this challenge.

How exactly are we defining "mundane?" Does it mean a class that cannot cast spells? A class that does not cast spells per se, but has superhuman abilities, like ToB classes? A class with limited spells, like Ranger or Paladin? A class that could cast spells, but inexplicably traded that ability in exchange for an ACF? Or are we simply saying "mundane means NPC classes?" (Because that's probably the most accurate definition.)

And what races are available to us? Level adjustments? Is Dragonborn on the table? Because slaying evil dragons is kind of their schtick.

[Snowbluff]

These spells are available to non-full casters?Non fullcasters? Yes, but with great difficulty.

T3 casters? Yes, but with difficulty.

Um... yes. Shivering Touch, at least. The easiest would be Dread Necromancer. The other two get it really easily. Healer can use Finger Darts instead. Beguilers can get Ice Assassin/Simulacrum. I think Warmages can use Eidetic Learning for Orbs if you want a mailman.

[AstralFire]

Pretty sure even a VoP Swordsage can tank an adult dragon, especially ones with a fire-based breath attack.

[G.Cube]

How exactly are we defining "mundane?" Does it mean a class that cannot cast spells? A class that does not cast spells per se, but has superhuman abilities, like ToB classes? A class with limited spells, like Ranger or Paladin? A class that could cast spells, but inexplicably traded that ability in exchange for an ACF? Or are we simply saying "mundane means NPC classes?" (Because that's probably the most accurate definition.)

And what races are available to us? Level adjustments? Is Dragonborn on the table? Because slaying evil dragons is kind of their schtick.

All of these, seperate! To clarify:

Any class with no magical ability at all

Any class with limited casting (i.e. Paladin, Ranger)

Any class with a fixed spell list

Any class with super natural abilities, but not a fulll spell list.

Assume PHB races for all builds.

[AstralFire]

Yeah, I just did part of a quick write-up. VoP Swordsage on 28 PB (10/14/14/10/14/14 - not even particularly optimal stats) hits an adult red on all but a natural 1, adult red needs three rounds to deal enough raw HP damage to kill it, and lightly dipping in Devoted Spirit with feats gives the SSage the HP to keep on going. And that's not even counting the various counter maneuvers, or the fact that VoP is horrible for optimization.

[zlefin]

which dragon has a considerable effect; an adult white dragon is a lot less dangerous than an adult gold dragon.

and, if you're using WBL, the answer is, yes they can; though optimization levels may matter; and would affect the levels at which it's possible.
Both in how optimized the pcs are, and in how optimized the dragons play (a lot of dragons are played in an unintelligent fashion which makes them far easier to kill).

[Urpriest]

Yeah, I just did part of a quick write-up. VoP Swordsage on 28 PB (10/14/14/10/14/14 - not even particularly optimal stats) hits an adult red on all but a natural 1, adult red needs three rounds to deal enough raw HP damage to kill it, and lightly dipping in Devoted Spirit with feats gives the SSage the HP to keep on going. And that's not even counting the various counter maneuvers, or the fact that VoP is horrible for optimization.

What sort of feat/gear selection are you assuming on the Red?

Anyway, the answer to this question is whichever can find a first level Adult Dragonwrought Kobold first. :smallwink:

[J-H]

A Dragon Stalker (Draconomicon 10-level PRC) gets +10d6 sneak attack damage and +2d6 bane damage vs dragons. Combine a ring of invisibility with his ability to negate blindsense and Scent, and he can sneak attack the dragon as long as it doesn't fly/run away.

Rapid Shot + distracted or flanked dragon gives 60d6 damage plus weapon damage, for 200-250 damage per round.

[Thrawn183]

I think you're overestimating dragons quite a bit.

Adult White Dragon: CR 10

Adult Red Dragon: CR 15

Are you sure you don't mean Great Wyrm dragons instead of adult? If you don't, I'd change the question to, "What pre-epic build can't solo an adult dragon."

Edit: Also, assuming a standard Ranger entry into Dragonstalker with a Bane (dragon) weapon, you're actually looking at +14d6+6 damage on every sneak attack. The Dragonstalker's Dragonstrike ability explicitly stacks with Bane (dragon) weapons.

[AstralFire]

What sort of feat/gear selection are you assuming on the Red?

Anyway, the answer to this question is whichever can find a first level Adult Dragonwrought Kobold first. :smallwink:

Just went with the basic MM stats Adult Red, since I went with VoP SSage. It's only hitting with every other attack at the SSage's AC.

[Brookshw]

I think you're overestimating dragons quite a bit.

Adult White Dragon: CR 10

Adult Red Dragon: CR 15

Are you sure you don't mean Great Wyrm dragons instead of adult? If you don't, I'd change the question to, "What pre-epic build can't solo an adult dragon."

I'd have to agree that an adult is pretty weak though the variations of what/if spell casting is available to it and the feat load out could impact things.

Is there a particular dragon type your thinking of? I'd assume info gathering by whatever player is step one and from there on out there are a plethora of options to choose from.

[Thrawn183]

At least an adult red dragon casts as a 7th level Sorceror, an adult white dragon casts as a first level sorceror.

[G.Cube]

I think you're overestimating dragons quite a bit.

Adult White Dragon: CR 10

Adult Red Dragon: CR 15

Are you sure you don't mean Great Wyrm dragons instead of adult? If you don't, I'd change the question to, "What pre-epic build can't solo an adult dragon."

Edit: Also, assuming a standard Ranger entry into Dragonstalker with a Bane (dragon) weapon, you're actually looking at +14d6+6 damage on every sneak attack. The Dragonstalker's Dragonstrike ability explicitly stacks with Bane (dragon) weapons.

I do mean Great Wyrm, sorry guys!

[OldTrees1]

I assume the Great Wyrm is doing strafing runs rather than sitting on the ground? This does make it much harder for an ubercharger to catch up to the Great Wyrm.

I assume the Dragonborn template would be used to get mundane flight.


What is the limit on magical assistance? Items to be specific.

[Brookshw]

I do mean Great Wyrm, sorry guys!

Still seems like the dragon type is critical, a red great wyrm is casting at 19th, a white 13th, that's a hefty difference. Is there any set up info you can share to narrow the playing field?

[Thrawn183]

Well, I'll see what I can throw together to face up against Rikano-alinaris from the Draconomicon (CR 27 Great Wyrm Gold Dragon).

If we use the pre-built dragons, characters will stand a chance. If we assume truly optimized spell lists... yeah, no chance of a mundane character beating a creature with 700+ HP that casts as a 19th level sorceror.

[OldTrees1]

Type: CR: Casting: Flight
White: 21: 13: 250ft(clumsy)
Black: 22: 15: 200ft(clumsy)
Brass: 23: 19: 250ft(clumsy)
Green: 24: 17: 200ft(clumsy)
Blue: 25: 17: 200ft(clumsy)
Bronze: 25: 19: 200ft(clumsy)
Copper: 25: 19: 200ft(clumsy)
Red: 26: 19: 200ft(clumsy)
Silver: 26: 19: 200ft(clumsy)
Gold: 27: 19: 250ft(clumsy)

Obscure Flight Rules:
Some Ariel combat manuevers (Trip, Overrun) get a bonus/penalty related to manueverability
perfect +12, good +8, average +4, poor +0, clumsy -4.
Ariel trips cause the defender to stall (fall out of da sky)

[G.Cube]

Still seems like the dragon type is critical, a red great wyrm is casting at 19th, a white 13th, that's a hefty difference. Is there any set up info you can share to narrow the playing field?

Highest CR out of the PHB, which looks like Gold?

[Thrawn183]

Alright, I'm not going to make a full level 20 character, because that takes forever. I'm also going to post only the relevant stats from the Draconomicon (because that's all we're allowed to.)

Rikano-alinaris from the Draconomicon

Great Wyrm Gold Dragon
CR 27
HP: 717 (41d12+451)
AC: 42 (42 flat-footed, 2 touch)
Constitution: 33
Saves: Fort +33, Ref +22, Will +35
Spot/Listen: +52/+52
Breath Weapon: 24d10, DC 41 Ref

He actually doesn't seem to know any spells that are all day buffs.


Evil Hobitses

Tiny Humanoid (Halfling)
Permanent Reduced Person
Rogue 10/Dragonstalker 10
BAB+17/+12/+7/+2
Dexterity: 38 (18 +2 racial +2 size +6 enhancement +5 level +5 inherent)
Reflex Save: +32
+15d6+20 sneak attack vs dragons, evasion, improved evasion
weapons treated as bane vs dragons (stacking with bane (dragon))
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Craven, TWF, GTWF, Quick Draw, Staggering Strike, Improved Initiative
Items (non-weapon, 247,000): Gloves of Dex +6 (36,000), Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000), +30 Move Silent boots (90,000), +20 Hide item (40,000), +1 Vanishing Chain Shirt (16,000), +5 Cloak of Resistance (25,000)
Skills: Hide +65, Move Silently +69
Skill Trick: Hidden Blade
Weapons (316,000,000):
- Dagger: +1 Bane (Dragon), Wounding, Fleshgrinding (Atk +38, 1d2+5 +4d6 damage), 72,000
- Dagger: +1 Bane (Dragon), Wounding, Fleshgrinding (Atk +36/+31/+26/+21, 1d2+5 +4d6), 72,000
- Dagger: +1 Bane (Dragon), Wounding, Fleshgrinding (Atk +36/+31, 1d2+5 +4d6), 72,000
- Dagger: +1 Bane (Dragon), Magebane, Wounding (Atk +38/+33/+28/+23, 1d2+7+6d6), 50,000
- Dagger: +1 Bane (Dragon, Magebane, Wounding (Atk +38/+33, 1d2+7+6d6)

167,000 gold remaining for various other assorted items


So, how does the encounter work. Our evil jerk can easily get within 300 feet of Rikano-alinaris without being seen. At that point he activates his vanishing armor which makes him undetectable for 10 rounds, whereupon he finishes approaching Rikano-alinaris and begins attempting to remove his kidneys with daggers.

A note on Con damage: every second hit, not counting the first, results in Rikano-alinaris losing 41 maximum HP from loss of Con. This could be considered an extra 20 damage per attack if you would like.

Surprise round:
Evil Hobbit stabs Rikano-alinaris for 1d2+25+19d6, 93 average, and 1 Con damage. He also, as a free action, activates the fleshgrinding function of the dagger so that it attacks Rikano-alinaris once at the beginning of the Evil Hobbit's turn for 5 turns. Lastly, as a free action, the Evil Hobbit draws another dagger.

Round 1:
The Evil Hobbit wins initiative, full attacks Rikano-alinaris, activating the fleshgrinding function on the next two daggers, and quick drawing the last two. The first flesh grinding dagger attacks, but does not get bonus damage from craven. Evil Hobbit attempts staggering strikes with each sneak attack. Rikano-alinaris can only make the save on a 20, and will be limited to a single standard action.

Rikano-alinaris stands a good chance of eliminating our Evil Hobbit right here by simply casting Imprisonment with a save DC of 30. If he uses his breath weapon the Evil Hobbit is fine. If he attacks with a natural weapon in an attempt to grapple the Evil Hobbit, the Evil Hobbit is fine. If he uses his standard action to remove a fleshgrinding dagger, the Evil Hobbit is fine.

Round 2:
Assuming there is a round 2.

The Evil Hobbit draws a hidden blade and gets another sneak attack. The three flesh grinding daggers continue their work. Rikano-alinaris is staggered again. He faces pretty much the same decisions as in round 1.

Round 3:
At this point, our evil Hobbit should just run. He could conceivably full round attack again and actually not be worthless because of the combination of Dragonstrike/Bane/Magebane/Wounding, but he should really just leave and hope the fleshgrinding daggers finish off Rikano-alinaris.

So now for some quick and dirty damage calculations:
Multiplying average damage by chance to hit can give us a very rough expected damage value for each attack.

Surprise: 85% x 93 = 79 dmg
Total: 79 damage

Round 1 (using the Constitution damage conversion):
Fleshgrinding weapon 1: 85% x 73 =
Main Hand 1: 75% x 93 = 70 dmg
Main Hand 2: 50% x 102 = 51 dmg
Main Hand 3: 25% x 102 = 25 dmg
Main Hand 4: 5% x 102 = 5 dmg
Off Hand 1: 75% x 93 = 70 dmg
Off Hand 2: 50% x 102 = 51 dmg
Total: 413 damage

Alright, I see where this is going, I'm not trying any more after this.


Well, that shows that an extraordinarily simply build Rogue/Dragonstalker cannot really hope to walk up to Rikano-alinaris and stab him in the kidneys hard enough to kill him. He probably wouldn't be able to do much over 500-600 damage total, even counting how long it would take Rikano-alinaris to remove the fleshgrinding weapons.

I'm sure other people here could figure out a way for our Evil Hobbit to survive a round or two taking actual spells from Rikano-alinaris but that wasn't really my goal.

717 HP is a lot. It would be pretty funny if the Evil Hobbit got lucky enough that after getting hit with Imprisonment, the fleshgrinding daggers finished off our hero Great Wyrm Gold Dragon. No one alive would even know what happened.

[Brookshw]

A valiant attempt, kudos!

May I add that some of that loose change should be spent on a scroll of waves of exhaustion and immunity to fear item? Also any anti-shut down fears (replusion & forcecage ranking high up there).

[OldTrees1]

@Thrawn183
What if the dragon is not on the ground? (even a dumb spell-less dragon knows the sky is its ally)

Why not the Darkstalker feat instead of the Vanishing armor ability?

What about the breath weapon? (Ala the Pyro's anti Spy technique from Team Fortress 2)
Nvm. 12 Str damage each is easily survivable and Energy damage with a Ref save is ignorable

[Thrawn183]

A valiant attempt, kudos!

May I add that some of that loose change should be spent on a scroll of waves of exhaustion and immunity to fear item? Also any anti-shut down fears (replusion & forcecage ranking high up there).

Well, the dragon's frightful presence will only leave someone shaken. A -2 penalty is never good, but it isn't terrible either. Waves of exhaustion only gives a -6 penalty to strength and dexterity (assuming you could get past SR 33 of course), which isn't enough to take down a dragon by reducing its dexterity to 0. It had more than enough attack bonus and damage on its attacks for the strength penalty to matter either.

Ultimately the issue is that the save DC's for the dragon's spells are just too high. There's no way this kind of character can stand around taking magical blows from the dragon. Even using something like forcecage, the dragon will just disintegrate it (surprisingly, while it doesn't know any teleportation spells, it is almost impossible to actually lock down.)

Between Imprisonment, Polymorph Any Object and its breath weapon, the dragon can effectively target any save.

Also, the OP specifically requested to limit the use of wands and UMD in general.



What if the dragon is not on the ground? (even a dumb spell-less dragon knows the sky is its ally)

Why not the Darkstalker feat instead of the Vanishing armor ability?

Even dragons have to land some time. In fact, I specifically chose rogue as a base so that people wouldn't have a problem with the character infiltrating the dragon's lair without setting off a small nuclear war's worth of traps.

I chose the armor ability because the build was feat starved but had plenty of gold to toss around.

[OldTrees1]

Even dragons have to land some time. In fact, I specifically chose rogue as a base so that people wouldn't have a problem with the character infiltrating the dragon's lair without setting off a small nuclear war's worth of traps.

I chose the armor ability because the build was feat starved but had plenty of gold to toss around.

Even assuming an ambush in a lair*, the dragon is allowed to take flight on their turn. Your halfling does not do enough damage in the first turn to justify being unable to engage the dragon in flight.

*which is not guaranteed since I can think of countermeasures and the target is smarter than me (although it is granted in the case of the Draconomicon lairs)

[Emperor Tippy]

It really depends on how faithfully the DM plays the dragon.

Play a Great Wyrm Red or Gold Dragon to it's stats, abilities, and age and there is pretty much no way that a pure mundane (no spellcasting eithe via class features or via items) can successfully and permanently defeat the dragon.

And god help them if the dragon has the Epic Spellcasting feat (which they do qualify for).

[Thrawn183]

Even assuming an ambush in a lair*, the dragon is allowed to take flight on their turn. Your halfling does not do enough damage in the first turn to justify being unable to engage the dragon in flight.

*which is not guaranteed since I can think of countermeasures and the target is smarter than me (although it is granted in the case of the Draconomicon lairs)

There are two issues here (one which actually brings Darkstalker back into the discussion. The first is that the dragon is staggered. It can't move and fight. If the dragon moves away that just means the halfling can hide, which is where Darkstalker would be useful. All the halfling needs is a way to get concealment, and he's home free.

The second is that each successful sneak attack is forcing a save against death from massive damage. The dragon may have to roll a one to fail, but sooner or later it will. If we assume four hits, that alone is a 19% chance of failing.

Frankly, to keep things relatively similar to the original, I'd just tweak things by getting rid of magebane on the last set of daggers and going with all fleshgrinding daggers. I was trying to find a way to burst the dragon in one round, but if we assume the dragon's going to try and run, then halfling has time to hide as a result. If not, the fleshgrinding daggers pretty much guarantee a kill.

Each one does a point of Con damage every hit, attacking once per turn with an 85% chance to hit. If the dragon immediately begins trying to kill the halfling instead of attempting to remove the daggers (which it can only remove one per round, as it requires a standard action) it's going to eat another (19 attacks x 85% chance to hit = 16 hits) 16 Con damage reducing the dragon's max hp by roughly another 160, in addition to all the damage (16 x (1d2+5+4d6)) which comes out to 240.

So.... yeah, if the dragon fights instead of removing the daggers, it pretty much straight up dies. Even if the dragon attempts to remove the daggers, it can only remove one per turn.

Now, if we add buffs like a potion of Haste, the dragon's toast. I mean, really toast. Wounding against something with 41 HD is terrifying. And fleshgrinding weapons will go with the dragon no matter where it tries to run. Again, my example was the most baseline of how you would build such a character, any serious attempt and things just get uglier.

[Pickford]

1) UBERCHARGER! That can fly.

2) Cast Shivering Touch, make a simulacrum/ice assassin, or be the mailman.

3) T3? Warblades, Beguilers, Factotum... I think most of the classes there can solo a dragon. Incarnates, Truenamers, and Healers can all cast Gate by level 20.

Dispel Magic says "Hi".

I wouldn't stake my entire attack on being able to use magic, that's asking to get ridden roughshod by the Dragon.

If the DM isn't mollycoddling you the only feasible line of approach is to use a flying mount and/or have superior archery skills (as the Dragon would be suicidal to place themselves into any danger at all otherwise).

That's it really. The Dragon has range, so you either have to have range, or be able to outfly them. (Keep in mind their turning radius sucks)

[OldTrees1]

-good stuff-

Again, my example was the most baseline of how you would build such a character, any serious attempt and things just get uglier.

The dragon only needs to survive 1 round to cease to be staggered. So fly away and deal with the fleshgrinding weapons (So 1+7+3+2+1=14 melee attacks). The halfling gets to hide again. Then the real battle would start. (provided the 14 attacks did not slay it)

That is a decent baseline but I think the Dragon is still likely to survive and maybe even succeed over the next few hours of cat and mouse. If flying was not an issue for this melee build, then I would not be worried.

(Sidenote: Staggering Strike is vulnerable to magically produced Fast Healing)



Dispel Magic says "Hi".
Any decent Ubercharger build for this challenge would have non magical (Extraordinary) flight.