Rage to Stop the Pain

[Missing Shoe]

In my current group their style of play always revolves around damage. I've tried to suggest other options for both melee and casters a like, but they like their damage because it gives results they can see (or something).

So I wanted to throw them up against something they couldnt just beat to death with a stick. If you havent guessed it already, I was thinking of putting them against a frenzied berserker.

The problem is, I've never played one, so I don't know how well they hold up. Here is what I was thinking as a guideline:

Fullblood Orc (required by me)
Fighter 2 / Barbarian 4 / Frenzy 4
Feats:
Power Attack (req)
Cleave (req)
Destructive Rage (req)
Intimidating Rage (req)
Extended Rage x 2 (for a total of 15 rnd frenzy, 2/day = 30 rnds total)

I'm shooting for the quickest route to deathless frenzy possible. The PCs consists of meat shield, skillmonkey/secondary shield, and mage (no healbot but they have potions of healing). They are actually only level 5 now. My question is, what level should they be before they get to face this beast? And how do these guys handle in battle? What if he has no equipment (not even a weapon)?

I'm not trying to Min/Max this guy - except I want his terror to last for a freaking long time. The beauty of it is they have never heard of this class, so they wont even think of the possibility of it *not* dying from damage. I plan to role play him as a prisoner (PCs will be exploring an abandoned prison...i dont know why he is still there yet, working on that part:smalltongue:), so he probably wont have stuff. I basically want him to break. everything. in. sight. and scare the crap out of the PCs. He will probably ignore things like reflex saves and will purposely do himself harm if it means hurting others (like grabbing someone and jumping off a tall height together). I dont want to kill them, I just want to see how it takes before they try to do something besides damage (there will be plenty of chances to hide). However, I *wont* pull my punches, so I dont want him to overpower the group.

I choose those class levels because I wanted him to rage and frenzy the same amount so he can get a huge strength score, so he can break more things. However I am open to suggestions, although please indicate sources:smallsmile:. Also, any other changes to my build or suggestions are welcome, in fact, encouraged.

One last thing ... what does one look like at insane negative damage? I want to describe the mangled mess this guy will become so they get a good image, but what does -100 HP mean exactly? How would you describe it? Plus some good quotes for him to shout out would be helpful too.:smallsmile:

Thanks in advance!

[Brauron]

Well, based on what reducing a wild boar to -30 HP did in the campaign I'm in....

Imagine a water balloon filled with extra-chunky beef stew. Now imagine it bursting.

As for quotes...I'm thinking wordless howls of fury, foaming at the mouth, gnawing on PCs as he attacks them...remember he is out of his mind with rage. Maybe a single, drawn-out "KIIIIILLLLLL!"

The rest I'm not knowledgeable enough about to be of any help.

(Looked at maybe getting that PrC for my Barbarian...decided against it so that the Wizard wouldn't have to buy new underwear after every random encounter)

[Jack Mann]

Think about how much damage you had to do to take off a hundred points. Now imagine doing that to a corpse. That should give you the basic image of what they look like now.

[oriong]

Well, making him unarmed (or armed only with a knife, or improvised weapons) is a good way to make the encounter less lethal for the players, because a fully armed frenzied berserker is not a good way to make a 'long fight'. For a lot of the party the fight would be very short indeed.

Tactics like bull rush and grapple when appropraite might also be useful since they can be intimidating without being immediately lethal.

The main problem with your strategy is if you want to get the PCs to try things other than damage, you're in trouble. If the PCS only want to do damage that's all they'll be loaded for. Pretty much the only characters capable of doing non-damage effects is the mage and maybe the skill monkey (with UMD)...but if the wizard has no useful non-damaging spells then the entire group is up the creek without a paddle. I seriously doubt that the meat shield would have what it takes to keep a frenzied berserker in a grapple, and that's about the only non-magical option that has much chance of sucess.

And even unarmed, a 10th level frenzied berserker in a 15 round Deathless Frenzy comboed with barbarian rage has a pretty good chance of a TPK on a 3 person group unless they're near his level and equipped to handle him.

So, what you need to do is give them the means to fight this guy before they reach them. The simplest way would be a few scrolls or even a low-charge wand of hold person that the caster can spam at the berserker, or (maybe even better) something like a Heightened Calm Emotions wand/scroll.

Alternatively give them some way to trap or stop him with the environment (luring him into a big pit trap, finding some way to get him trapped in a cell, or just off a cliff).

[NullAshton]

I would think that his arms would barely be hanging on by a thread, he would have broken legs and ribs and other nasty stuff, his intestines would probably be spilling out on the ground, he might have an eye torn out or hanging by a nerve, blood and other nasty stuff pouring out of all kinds of massive cuts, and he probably would look somewhat like a zombie by now.

And he would just ignore all that pain, the fact that his body is screaming to him "YOU'RE DEAD NOW, LAY DOWN AND DIE", and just continue on slashing at people. At that point, he would probably have inhuman screams or something.

...the image of frenzied beserkers in a deathless frenzy freaks me out, now...

[jlousivy]

i'm suddenly intrigued by the frenzied berserker. Where do i find this god of a class? :-)

[Lord Iames Osari]

Complete Warrior.

Oh and I agree that you should go unarmed. Depending on how much ownage you want to lay out, I'd suggest the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from Tome of Battle. It'll increase the damage you do with unarmed strikes. The damage will still be nonlethal, but it might still be worth it.

[jlousivy]

with 'supreme power attack' it says +2 dmg per -1 to hit, does that mean with a 2 handed weapon its +4dmg / -1 to hit?!

[Douglas]

Yes. A 10th level Frenzied Berzerker taking a -10 penalty for power attack with a greatsword gets +40 damage.

[Fizban]

To start definately take all his equipment, and no improved unarmed strike. This guy is fighting with the standard 1d3 non-lethal slap, plus insane str bonus to damage. Then give the party a couple non-damage solutions, but make sure they aren't obvious. An enviromental advantage coupled with a few random scrolls that include one that will let them use that advantage sounds good.

Let's say that this guy just broke out a couple rounds ago (by DM fiat) and KO'd his captors, then turned a corner while in frenzy and attacked the PC's. How about making him use really bad tactics for no reason at all? Set power attack to full, charge and grapple main tank, deal non-lethal grapple option. With no gear or dex bonus, the PC's should be able to PA for full themselves, so you help set the stage for them to deal massive and useless amounts of damage.

Edit: wait, you can't PA with unarmed strike since it's a light weapon....meh.

[Missing Shoe]

Edit: wait, you can't PA with unarmed strike since it's a light weapon....meh.
No, but you did bring up a good point i forgot! I was thinking if I did give him a weapon that he would always max out his PA because he is raging and just wants things to die. With full PA he would still be able to hit objects and make them go boom, but should have troubles hitting the PCs. The problem is, when he does hit the PCs (on crits), chances are, they will go boom too.

Thats why I was going to go unarmed, but then yeah, he cant really PA. Maybe I will give him some improvised weapons thrown about that will eventually break, but until then he can swing those around at a penalty.



So, what you need to do is give them the means to fight this guy before they reach them. The simplest way would be a few scrolls or even a low-charge wand of hold person that the caster can spam at the berserker, or (maybe even better) something like a Heightened Calm Emotions wand/scroll.
Well, you can beat him with damage as long as he doesnt beat you first. I was going to rely on them giving up on damage and hiding or using their surroundings (traps, height, etc), but as most DMs know, things dont always go to plan. I will have to give them some magic as a back up, just enough to save their butts.

Anyone have a good idea on what level they should be to face him?

[Lord Iames Osari]

ARGH! Yes, you can PA with unarmed strikes. Read the feat, people!


Originally posted by the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)
Power Attack [General]

Prerequisite

Str 13.
Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll) for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll). You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#unarmedStrike) or natural weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#doubleWeapons) as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
A fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm) may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[oriong]

Well, you can beat him with damage as long as he doesnt beat you first. I was going to rely on them giving up on damage and hiding or using their surroundings (traps, height, etc), but as most DMs know, things dont always go to plan. I will have to give them some magic as a back up, just enough to save their butts.How would they hide? The berserker can outrun them all unless one is a monk or another barbarian, and if any of them are of the short races he'll have double their move. the skill monkey might be able to hide while the other two distract them, but unless things really do go well for them and they can manage to manuever him into a trap (which'll be tough, with +10 to strength he's near impossible to bull rush or grapple). In order to sucessfully get him into a trap the PCs probably have to actually get some space from him, or force him to move as they want to move, both of which are very tough options. He certainly can't be locked up again, even if he had only 10 strength to begin with he has +13 to his smash things roll, he has a 1/4 chance to break through an iron door, and since he's a full orc his strength is probably something like 18 or 20.

Unless you've got some reaaally good situational benefits for the PCs in mind (and they can get to them, and they know to use them) you pretty much have to rely on them lasting the full 15 rounds (unlikely) or the wizard/skill monkey pulling out some bit of useful equipment or memorized spell.

EDIT: as far as level, a lot depends on just how much of an environment/equipment advantage they have.

At the levels you have him statted out for his will save is only +4 (plus wisdom and any feats) while raging. If the mage actually had any spells like hold person or deep slumber he might be able to take him out at his current level, but really it's not a matter of PC level in this case as PC equipment. If they have no equipment/environment advantage and just have to wait out the rage while fighting him (hopefully they realize to fight defensively pretty soon) then you probably don't want to send him in until they're at least 8th-10th level, and certainly not after they've already been beaten up a lot, or are going to be beat up some more.

[Ramza00]

When this is all over, teach them about grease (though a frenzied berserker can make a jump check since its only 10 feet), sleet storm, freezing fog, etc anything that forced the frenzied berserker to make a balance or other dexterity related check. You can't use dexterity in a frenzied but you could use it in a rage.

Battefield control is your friend

[Bouldering Jove]

This seems kind of counterintuitive. If you want to teach your players that control tactics are effective, why not pitch them against enemies that use control tactics effectively?

[Ramza00]

This seems kind of counterintuitive. If you want to teach your players that control tactics are effective, why not pitch them against enemies that use control tactics effectively?
That would be the stick, giving encounters that are easily solved with control tactics is a carrot. You do both the carrot and the stick ;)

[Ninja Chocobo]

That would be the stick, giving encounters that are easily solved with control tactics is a carrot. You do both the carrot and the stick ;)
But aren't encounters that are easily solved by control tactics hard to solve without control tactics, and thus also a stick?

[ExHunterEmerald]

Well, for flavor, I think something that would be funny in any other situation'd work-this guy is so angry he doesn't care anymore--so he starts with a low growl, builds to a snarl, to a roar, and then he's literally shrieking.
Also, if it helps, I once cut a paladin in half at the waist with a scythe crit--enough damage to get to -30 in one swing.
We were level two. :D

Edit: Had a thought.
If your party's having trouble figuring out not to do damage, have them get chased back towards the cells he escaped from. One of the guards he overpowered will be clutching a wand with hold person or deep slumber.

[Rigeld2]

Extended Rage x 2 (for a total of 15 rnd frenzy, 2/day = 30 rnds total)
You can only Rage/Frenzy once per encounter. So 15 rounds is it.

[SpiderBrigade]

Yes, to teach them the lesson you have to do both steps. Not only scaring them with the guy who can't be killed by their usual damage tactics, but then also showing them how much of a cakewalk that same encounter can be with battlefield control spells or similar. The trick is, you have to get THEM to do it, so they get the positive reinforcement of feeling awesome. Having an NPC "show" them will probably just lead to resentment.

Definitely go for the unarmed strike, nonlethal, etc. Your point isn't to show them that Frenzied Berserkers are lethal combat machines (which they can be), because then they'll just want to play one so they can do more damage. Rather the opposite of what you want. The threat comes from the fact that this dude just will not die.

I also second the idea of puttting them against some enemies who use the tactics you're trying to encourage. Make these fights reasonably tough. Then put the players (not too obviously) in the reverse situation. Something like, "Hey, this narrow passageway between us and the kobolds reminds me of the time that evil wizard almost owned us with Grease." The Frenzied Berserker we're discussing could serve as a sort of final exam :smallbiggrin:

[AtomicKitKat]

I'd just like to point out that if you and Gamebird traded players, you'd both be happy. :P

Frenzied Berserker in deathless frenzy wouldn't have his limbs hanging by a thread. For one thing, that would make swinging them for blows rather inconvenient. :P I think of it more like them having lots of shallow cuts(that gradually open up, representing that -1 hp per round), with maybe blood streaming off their brow shortly(like 2-3 rounds) before they collapse.

Just for the hell of it, instead of grabbing any old improvised weapon, have him grab one of the PCs(or guards, if you don't want the player turning to mush) and start using them as a makeshift club/boomerang.

[Dark]

I'd go for big improvised weaponry acquired with great strength, like tearing a support beam out of the wall to make an improvised greatclub :) You can play up his strength that way.

One way to make the encounter less lethal is to have the berserker already be chased by guards. That way, if it gets too dangerous then the party can team up with the guards against the berserker. And the berserker will have some NPCs to do damage on. I'd have the guards watch the fight at first, until the party calls for help. There's no need for guards to be heroic :)

[Telok]

+1 Merciful Quarterstaff. Go ahead and let him power attack for full, just play him stupid and attack whomever is closest and apparently most dangerous.

To make sure the party can stop him with non-damage let them face a wizard a few fights earlierand give him scrolls with spells on them. Let the wizard use the same spells as his memorized spells, with his DCs being improved from the feats and a Fox's Cunning. That should give them the spells to stop the undying nutcase without damage even if they don't normally pick them. It also allows for those spells to be used aginst them earlier on, to learn just how effective they are.

Spells

Animate Rope, Reflex or be entangled, any rope-like object in the environment. Glitterdust, Will or be blinded. Web, Reflex or be entangled. Hideous Laughter, Will or be prone and take no actions. Pyrotechnics, Will or be blinded, plus it puts the torches out. Sleet Storm, no sight and Balance check or can't move. Deep Slumber, Will or take a nap.

Best way to use this aginst the party.
Pyrotechnics is a good opener, humans hate having their lights poof out. Have a couple of level 1 mooks throw nets at people (and miss) to cast Animate Rope on. Web the party caster and retreat over a barrier. Just something to block line of sight but not deter a chase, I'd suggest a low wall or a nearby balcony with a solid railing. If they don't want to follow the fellow can stand (move), cast (standard), and drop (prone, free). A wand of Schorching Ray ought to do, very few charges though so they don't get to use it very much. When the fighter and skiller give chase go ahead and Laugh at them. Grease the stairs leading to the balcony, or a slope on the other side of the low wall. Once they kill all the mooks and hurt the opposing caster cast Invisibility and run away. He simply leaves some "useless" non-damaging scrolls and a few coins as treasure.

This ought to leave the players frustrated at not getting to kill a really annoying caster that they would otherwise wipe the floor with. Then you can hit them with the undying beserker.

If you want an annoying undying critter you might consider a Fieldish Troll with a 15 acid resistance ring or some such.

[Glyde]

Make him use prison doors and pieces of rubble to smack / toss at the players. Also, make sure that they can hear him before the fight starts.

How do you think they're going to kill this guy, though? I mean, what if the wizard stocks up on damage spells when he hears the screaming and crashing thinking "I bet it's a huge fight in there, I'll prepare a lot of fireballs instead of hold person."

Oh, and have him come up behind the PCs. That's always fun.

[Rigeld2]

How do you think they're going to kill this guy, though? I mean, what if the wizard stocks up on damage spells when he hears the screaming and crashing thinking "I bet it's a huge fight in there, I'll prepare a lot of fireballs instead of hold person."

Thats the plan. Theyll drop him to negatives in short order, but he wont die for his 15 rounds of Frenzy.

I actually second the Merciful quality, but make it on a Greatsword. And dont tell them its nonlethal damage.

"Take 40 damage."
"Thats it, I'm dead... we did over 900 damage to that guy and it was STILL a TPK. What happened?!"
"All of you wake up with massive headaches, feeling hungover, and you see whats left of your opponent in a pile of remains before you."
"..."

[oriong]

But why would the berserker not kill them when they're all unconcious? he could just stomp their heads in (unarmed strike for lethal damage coup de grace)

But ultimately wiping the party out (which is what will happen if he gets a merciful greatsword, he would crush them) doesn't accomplish the goal, especially because they don't know WHY this happened. All they know is the DM apparently sent them up against someone with insane, ludicrous hit points and crazy combat ability, for no reason other than to waste their time and energy.

If a lesson is to be learned they have to beat him, or at least come to the realization of HOW to beat him. At the very least include some sort of warning that direct damage is not the way to go (maybe some kind of entry in the prison warden's book on the 'special' prisoner).

[Falrin]

Oh, and lethal damage + Full power attack.

Lets take a look first.

BaB 10. 2 hander. 20 damage.
Orc Str 17 (+3) . Rage +4. +6 Str.

Thats +13/+8 to hit for 1d6 (piece of chair/chest/...) + 19 (Str) + 20 (PA)

I don't know the AC & HP of your meatshield, but if a 5th LvL char gets hit for 42 damage it hurts. If he gets hit twice he's dead.

[oriong]

Well, actually he gets 3 attacks, since during his frenzy he recieves a bonus, but his attack bonus would be a lot lower.

+8 from strength, -4 from improvisation, so a total of +4/+4/-1 and his damage will only be +12 from strength, so 1d6+12+20. Still nasty though.

It doesn't help that at least one character might end up shaken for the whole fight.

[PinkysBrain]

I'd throw a troll with a minor ring of energy resistance (fire) against them instead.

If you follow the standard method of giving monsters which have been advanced by character class (such as the troll) NPC gear according to their ECL they get high end gear in relation to their CR. A troll fighter 1 is CR6, but gets the same gear as a 12th level NPC. Enough to afford the ring.

[Tor the Fallen]

I like the idea of the fb just bludgeoning the party with his fists. At first, they'll be excited that they get to take attacks of opportunity against him, but after 5 or so rounds, they'll realize they aren't doing ANY damage, and start to get freaked out.

[Kantolin]

The problem you may have here is if the result is 'Well, that was annoying.'

Or worse, if they totally don't catch that they're not hurting him, and just blow away at him until either forced to run or knocked out, and summarily assume that he just had a ludicrously large amount of hit points. This may or may not prompt 'Huh, I wish we had a solution that wasn't damage'... but I'm leaning towards 'may not', as the goal may be to hit it harder. After all, he's using their tactic exactly and it seems to have worked just nicely for him.

Now, the suggestions to have enemies who do differing tactics, or at least some sort of suggestion to do otherwise may end up helping more.

[Tor the Fallen]

The problem you may have here is if the result is 'Well, that was annoying.'

Or worse, if they totally don't catch that they're not hurting him, and just blow away at him until either forced to run or knocked out, and summarily assume that he just had a ludicrously large amount of hit points. This may or may not prompt 'Huh, I wish we had a solution that wasn't damage'... but I'm leaning towards 'may not', as the goal may be to hit it harder. After all, he's using their tactic exactly and it seems to have worked just nicely for him.

Now, the suggestions to have enemies who do differing tactics, or at least some sort of suggestion to do otherwise may end up helping more.

Simple solution:
They find the diary of the warden of the prison. In it, it speaks of a captive who cannot be slain in a fight when his eyes go red.

Or something similarily cheesy.

[Mewtarthio]

That reminds of a Metriod Prime-esque logbook:

"All wardens take note: Be certain that prisoner 5890 is kept restrained and sedated at all times. Remember that prison policy is that you do not attempt to subdue him lethally if he attempts to escape. These orders are for your own protection. Anybody defying this will not live to see execution."

[oriong]

A very interesting mistake in the 'Deathless Frenzy' ability.

All the ability does is prevent the berserker from being Disabled at 0 hit points, or from falling unconcious or dying if reduced into the negatives...

However, nothing prevents them from being knocked out due to non-lethal damage, since nonlethal damage doesn't subtract from anything, it just kicks in when the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds current hit points. The PCs wouldn't even have to figure this out themselves since the frenzier automatically takes nonlethal damage every round.

Hopefully this has been erratted, it's pretty clearly not the intent of the ability.

[Glyde]

That reminds of a Metriod Prime-esque logbook:

"All wardens take note: Be certain that prisoner 5890 is kept restrained and sedated at all times. Remember that prison policy is that you do not attempt to subdue him lethally if he attempts to escape. These orders are for your own protection. Anybody defying this will not live to see execution."

That gives me a great idea.

Wrist irons on each arm, with massive chains on each. That should be fun to swing around.

[NullAshton]

That gives me a great idea.

Wrist irons on each arm, with massive chains on each. That should be fun to swing around.

Heck yeah... use the stats for spiked chains... genius!

[Glyde]

Also, make it a multi part encounter. When the guy starts to run out of rage, have him retreat and somehow heal a bit. Then, later, they hear the sound of dragging chains from different directions and get jumped every so often. Gives them multiple tries to get the guy down the right way.

[Missing Shoe]

A very interesting mistake in the 'Deathless Frenzy' ability.

All the ability does is prevent the berserker from being Disabled at 0 hit points, or from falling unconcious or dying if reduced into the negatives...

However, nothing prevents them from being knocked out due to non-lethal damage, since nonlethal damage doesn't subtract from anything, it just kicks in when the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds current hit points. The PCs wouldn't even have to figure this out themselves since the frenzier automatically takes nonlethal damage every round.

Hopefully this has been erratted, it's pretty clearly not the intent of the ability.
So let me get this straight. A frenzy berserker takes non lethal damage each round. If he drops to 0 or less (from non lethal damage) after at least one round, his non lethal damage is therefore greater than his current HP. If thats the case, deathless frenzy is almost pointless because once he gets into the situation where he has HP<0, he will drop anyway. Please clarify this for me, I was kind of confused about the whole issue anyway.


Also, make it a multi part encounter. When the guy starts to run out of rage, have him retreat and somehow heal a bit. Then, later, they hear the sound of dragging chains from different directions and get jumped every so often. Gives them multiple tries to get the guy down the right way.ImpossibleImprobable. Once you enter a frenzy, you must kill everything in sight, friend or foe. You cannot cast spells, use items, and most skills. You basically get to attack them. So he would have to stop the finish the frenzy first. Although I believe it can be stopped on a successful will check, pretty high though for a fighter type (if memory serves me).

I do like the idea of using the tactics on them first in a different battle. Also the idea of having loot and warren logs on dead guards is a great idea.:smallsmile:

I plan on telling them what he was after the battle so they know that not everything can be killed through damage, but I would rather them figure it out on their own.


That gives me a great idea.

Wrist irons on each arm, with massive chains on each. That should be fun to swing around.I could see that. He would get a penalty for using them, but that would only help the PCs more.


I'd throw a troll with a minor ring of energy resistance (fire) against them instead.

If you follow the standard method of giving monsters which have been advanced by character class (such as the troll) NPC gear according to their ECL they get high end gear in relation to their CR. A troll fighter 1 is CR6, but gets the same gear as a 12th level NPC. Enough to afford the ring.I might if the non lethal damage ends up screwing over the FB. I really like the idea of a frenzied orc prisoner though. Through logs and such I could give him a nice background story and maybe a plot hook. This could be done with a troll too, but an orc is more 'human like' therefore the PCs will have a better chance of feeling it was more than just XP.

Thanks for all the great suggestions thus far! With help, hopefully this can be an encounter that always get brought up in conversation. "hey remember that time we fought the frenzy berserker?....":smallsmile:

[Glyde]

He could say, grab someone with one hand and try to wrap the chain around them with the other. Succesfully doing so would attach a party member to him for added fun.

Also, there's no way he can be human? I think an unstoppable human would be a little more intimidating and strike closer to home than an unstoppable orc.

[oriong]

Well, strictly as the ability is written, yes the non-lethal damage would render the deathless frenzy pointless (and undead and constructs and the like wouldn't be able to use deathless frenzy since they are destroyed at 0, which deathless frenzy doesn't prevent).

However, this is clearly not the intent of Deathless Frenzy so it's pretty clearly a mistake of some kind and you should feel no qualms about changing it so that the frenzied berserker can ignore the effects of non-lethal damage while in Deathless Frenzy (but not afterwards)

Even the flavor text implies the berserker is resistant to unconciousness.

[Tor the Fallen]

I once ran a campaign where, at the bottom of a mad wizard's tower, lay chained what once was an orc. Many spells and surgeries later, the orc was turned part contruct, part living creature. The wizard died before he could give the beast his sight back.

There he remained chained and blind for centuries, until a band of adventurers discovered him. He was of course, completel mad by then. He burst free from his prison and used his shackles to lash the party as if they were +1 spiked chains. Luckily for the party, he was blind. Otherwise they would have been lacerated to death in that dank pit.

[Jack Mann]

That would be the stick, giving encounters that are easily solved with control tactics is a carrot. You do both the carrot and the stick ;)

Sorry to go off topic, but no. That's not how the phrase "carrot and stick" works. The phrase is not about reward vs. punishment. It's about promised reward. To lead a donkey or mule, people would sometimes tie a carrot to the end of a stick and hold it in front of the animal. The animal would move forward to get to the carrot, also pulling along the driver/rider of the animal. So no, the barbarian is not the stick. There is no stick here.

[ExHunterEmerald]

There is no stick here.
Unless one of his players has levels in paladin.

[its_all_ogre]

the frenzied berserker could have an item that casts a healing spell on the wearer 14 rounds after they are reduced below 0hps(obviously this was crafted especially for the individual) maybe heal?
the spell also ends the frenzy, therefore the sneaking off and reappearing would work.
or heal and illusion to make him appear dead, he'd collapse and be healed, but the illusion would make him appear dead.
party wanders off going WTH?
next day orc wakes up and starts wandering again......
like resident evil 2 or nemesis.

[SpiderBrigade]

Sorry to go off topic, but no. That's not how the phrase "carrot and stick" works. The phrase is not about reward vs. punishment. It's about promised reward. To lead a donkey or mule, people would sometimes tie a carrot to the end of a stick and hold it in front of the animal. The animal would move forward to get to the carrot, also pulling along the driver/rider of the animal. So no, the barbarian is not the stick. There is no stick here.

In common usage, though, the "Carrot and stick" metaphor isused to mean "Here's a reward you can get if you do what I want, and here's the bad thing that'll happen if you don't." Yeah, it may be not exactly what people used to do with actual carrots, but the reward/threat usage apparently goes as far back as Winston Churchill, so I don't think you can just say "CARROT-STICK DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY." Language does evolve.

[Dark]

I also suspect that the first "if the carrot doesn't work, I'll just use the stick" joke was made shortly after the first use of the carrot and the stick, probably around 3000 BC or so :)

And it wouldn't surprise me if the carrot-and-stick trick was invented after the separate use of carrots and sticks when handling animals.

[Arbitrarity]

Ahhh...
"If you stick your sword in anyone's throat, I'll bash you with my axe"
"And the carrot?"
"If you don't kill anyone, I'll give you a lollipop"
"One question"
"Yes?"
"Where are you going to get the lollipop?"

[John_D]

But why would the berserker not kill them when they're all unconcious? he could just stomp their heads in (unarmed strike for lethal damage coup de grace)


Because as soon as the last PC drops the encounter ends and deathless frenzy likewise ends.

[Jack Mann]

But if phrases are used improperly, they begin to lose meaning. It's as bad as "the proof is in the pudding."

[silvermesh]

I like the abandoned prison idea. this guy could be from the "maximum security" "solitary confinement" wing. you could have more than one zerker down there, with one thats the big bad ass of em all, the lesser ones being the 'lessons". they don't have to be working together, but maybe they are down there and tolerate eachother, they're all nutso, but they know to give eachother their space, and they know not to mess with the main guy. They probably escaped from the prison and helped cause the revolt that shut it down. they're still living off of rats and carrion, not having the psychological faculties to ponder life outside their cells.
You send one or two of the lessers at them at a time, the PCs can't do any real damage, but give them lesser durations on the frenzy, so eventually they just drop, make it so the PCs are taking some damage, enough that after one fight they need to rest up. then, make it obvious that this next guy is even more of a badass.

[Mewtarthio]

Nah, that'd just lessen the terror of the big guy. It's like having a boss enemy that's just a bigger, tougher version of all the regular enemies. Though I do prefer having a human FB rather than some sort of giant or monstrous humanoid: It emphasizes the fact that they're not just up against another really tough monster.

[goat]

You could put other raging barbarians and a few different frenzy-types down there. They CAN defeat then by pure damage, but it'll be harder.

Although, if they do, they're more likely to assume that they can do the same on the final guy, and then die.

Which would certainly be a learning experience.

[goat]

Hmm, I've just realised that there aren't really any other types of berzerker available.

[AtomicKitKat]

There's the Bear Warrior, and the Berserk from Deities and Demigods.