what is the difference between sorcerer and warmage? [Archive]

Fax Celestis

2013-11-25, 06:07 PM

Warmage Edge is pretty dull, honestly.

Most of the really good blasty spells are ones that warmages don't get. The one advantage that warmages do get is that they are whole-list spontaneous, so adding spells to that list is very powerful (hence things like rainbow warsnake). Wyrm Wizard, Dracolexi, and Sandshaper are other good ones, but they do require some trickery to get in.

nedz

2013-11-25, 07:00 PM

Warmage Edge is pretty dull, honestly.
Sharp gag.

Most of the really good blasty spells are ones that warmages don't get. The one advantage that warmages do get is that they are whole-list spontaneous, so adding spells to that list is very powerful (hence things like rainbow warsnake). Wyrm Wizard, Dracolexi, and Sandshaper are other good ones, but they do require some trickery to get in.

Dracolexi's Bonus Spells Known don't seem to work for Warmages, or any other fixed list caster. It's still a pretty good PrC for them though.

Incanur

2013-11-25, 07:19 PM

Ice storm as a 3rd-level spell is the best thing about the warmage. :smallwink: Extend that sucker and enjoy the sweet double threat of battlefield control and damage. Also remember the Eclectic Learning ACF.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-11-25, 07:35 PM

Sorcerer

Pros much broader list of spells to draw from heaping pile of ACF's available better access to PrC's and better use of PrC features
Cons smaller HD generally fewer skill points slightly less damage without optimization

Warmage

Pros Access to his entire list of spells at any time slightly higher damage before optimization bigger HD generally more skill points better use of features that add new spells known
Cons drastically less damage at high-op almost no ACF's available

Chronos

2013-11-25, 07:35 PM

The biggest difference is that warmages get more spells known, but they tend to be mostly fairly similar to each other. If, when you're putting together a sorcerer, you find that most of the spells you want are on the warmage list, then you should probably play a warmage instead. If, however (as is likely), you want a bunch of spells that aren't on the warmage's list, stick with sorcerer.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-25, 07:44 PM

Dracolexi's Bonus Spells Known don't seem to work for Warmages, or any other fixed list caster. It's still a pretty good PrC for them though.

Yes it does:

Power Word Spells (Su): The words of Draconic power share some fundamental similarities to the various power word spells (those in the Player's Handbook as well as the ten new power word spells presented in Chapter 7 of this book), and your studies shed new light on the use of these magical effects. At 3rd level, you can select any single power word spell and add it to the spell list of any one spontaneous arcane spellcasting class that you have, treating it as a spell of one level lower than normal. If your class spell list doesn't normally include spells of the (adjusted) level of the power word spell, you can't add it to your spell list.

The rest of the text for the ability is specifically for limited spells known casters.

nedz

2013-11-25, 07:46 PM

No not that one, that one works fine. This one:

Bonus Spells Known: A dracolexi is particularly talented in using spells that incorporate language and speech. At 5th level, you can add any two language-dependent spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known for that class. The spells must be of a level you are capable of casting, and the two spells must be of different levels. For example, a 5th-level sorcerer/5th-level dracolexi could add lesser geas (a 4th-level sorcerer spell) and suggestion (a 3rd-level sorcerer spell) to his list of spells known. He couldn't learn command (since it's a cleric spell) or mass suggestion (since it's a 6th-level spell and beyond his ability to cast).

HaikenEdge

2013-11-25, 07:56 PM

Warmages can take advantage of anything that expands their spell list probably better than a sorcerer. Without that ability, however, the Warmage is kind of stuck doing just one thing, albeit fairly well, but still just one thing.

Incanur

2013-11-25, 08:43 PM

By default, warmages can do *two* things: blasting and battlefield control. They've also got a few utility spells like shatter and gust of wind. With Eclectic Learning, they can add any 2nd-level wizard spell at level 6, any 4th-level wizard spell at level 11, etc.

AstralFire

2013-11-25, 08:49 PM

Warmage's only practical advantage, sort of interesting op-fu-cheese, is that it's much quicker to roll a Warmage than a Blasty sorcerer at a high level. They make excellent NPCs.

Chambers

2013-11-25, 09:08 PM

Warmage's only practical advantage, sort of interesting op-fu-cheese, is that it's much quicker to roll a Warmage than a Blasty sorcerer at a high level. They make excellent NPCs.

This. I would also recommend the Warmage to someone that is new to D&D and wants to play a Blaster magician. Easy to learn and play.

Lanaya

2013-11-25, 10:21 PM

This. I would also recommend the Warmage to someone that is new to D&D and wants to play a Blaster magician. Easy to learn and play.

Not necessarily. If you play a sorcerer you only have to know what a handful of spells do (possibly a handful chosen for you by your more knowledgable DM), while playing a warmage requires knowing every spell on your spell list. It can also be tricker to know which one to use - a sorcerer whose 3rd level spells are fireball and fly has one spell for killing people and one for flying around, while a warmage has a huge list of spells which are all some variation upon "bad dude takes damage", and you won't necessarily know which one is the best to use in a certain situation.

Pickford

2013-11-25, 11:33 PM

CyberDrag:

what is the difference between sorcerer and warmage? both as pro's and cons of each.

Well, the Warmage is like a sorceror except:

No Familiar
wears light armor (and later medium armor) and can use shields
Larger hit die (d6 vs d4)
Restricted spell list (mostly evocations), but more total spells known
Gains some free sudden metamagic feats
Adds Int Mod to damage from spells (Note: This can actually makes 0th level spells a credible threat at early levels)

So, more mundane durability, less spell versatility, but the raw damage spells should always be more powerful, all things being equal.

ryu

2013-11-25, 11:41 PM

CyberDrag:

Well, the Warmage is like a sorceror except:

No Familiar
wears light armor (and later medium armor) and can use shields
Larger hit die (d6 vs d4)
Restricted spell list (mostly evocations), but more total spells known
Gains some free sudden metamagic feats
Adds Int Mod to damage from spells (Note: This can actually makes 0th level spells a credible threat at early levels)

So, more mundane durability, less spell versatility, but the raw damage spells should always be more powerful, all things being equal.

Arcane spell fusion, wings of flurry, entirely more freedom to get silly with orbs of force among other options.:smallamused: If neither side puts work in? The little warmage does more damage. If the sorcerer does actual work? He has a much higher optimization ceiling to work towards.

Fax Celestis

2013-11-25, 11:56 PM

Lanaya

2013-11-26, 12:09 AM

Sure, but it takes a certain level of systems mastery and dedication to go through the entirety of the spell list and pick out the good ones from the chaff.

Agreed, that's why I would recommend picking out spells for new players, at least for their first character. A sorcerer requires knowledge of the game during character creation, but a warmage requires more during actual gameplay, which is something that few players will appreciate the DM automating.

Incanur

2013-11-26, 12:20 AM

The Dragon Magazine bloodline feats, reprinted in Dragon Compendium, offer a decent way for warmages to expand their spell lists.

Pickford

2013-11-26, 02:49 AM

Arcane spell fusion, wings of flurry, entirely more freedom to get silly with orbs of force among other options.:smallamused: If neither side puts work in? The little warmage does more damage. If the sorcerer does actual work? He has a much higher optimization ceiling to work towards.

Arcane Fusion doesn't make the base spells do more damage. So it's unclear what your point is.

Wings of Flurry...is a Fireball that does force damage. Why is this meaningful?

:smallconfused:

I don't see what you're getting at Ryu.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-11-26, 02:58 AM

Arcane Fusion doesn't make the base spells do more damage. So it's unclear what your point is.

Wings of Flurry...is a Fireball that does force damage. Why is this meaningful?

:smallconfused:

I don't see what you're getting at Ryu.

Why do you insist on arguing about things you don't understand?

Wings of flurry is uncapped force damage on a mid level spell. Force damage is almost never resisted, a la energy resistance or subtype, and once you've got it you never need another close range blast because it will scale with caster level forever. Note that it also has a wider AoE than fireball.

Arcane fusion lets a sorcerer fire off two blasting spells at the same time for double the direct damage goodness and is a key component of a nigh-infinite damage loop. If you can finagle getting it to be treated as one level lower than normal (sanctum spell is a common choice) it will fit in itself allowing you to fire off as many spells as you care to.

Pickford

2013-11-26, 03:10 AM

Why do you insist on arguing about things you don't understand?

Wings of flurry is uncapped force damage on a mid level spell. Force damage is almost never resisted, a la energy resistance or subtype, and once you've got it you never need another close range blast because it will scale with caster level forever. Note that it also has a wider AoE than fireball.

Arcane fusion lets a sorcerer fire off two blasting spells at the same time for double the direct damage goodness and is a key component of a nigh-infinite damage loop. If you can finagle getting it to be treated as one level lower than normal (sanctum spell is a common choice) it will fit in itself allowing you to fire off as many spells as you care to.

I understand perfectly. If you're not stupid enough to throw fire at something with fire resistance it will also never be resisted. Wings of Flurry only has a 30' radius, which actually makes it worse than any spell which has range.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-11-26, 03:23 AM

I understand perfectly. If you're not stupid enough to throw fire at something with fire resistance it will also never be resisted. Wings of Flurry only has a 30' radius, which actually makes it worse than any spell which has range.

Unless you've memorized every monster in the game (6 books with a monster on nearly every page and 3 with extensive monster sections [LM, LoM, Drac] and a handful of monsters in about 2/3's of -all- books) you're not always going to know the resistances of the creature in front of you.

There's also the simple fact that if you're worried about resistances (and you should be) then you need several different types of blasting spell -unless- you have wings of flurry. Then you have one spell that can blast anything that gets in range. 60ft is close but not at all unusual.

MeeposFire

2013-11-26, 03:26 AM

The only nice advantage to warmage/warlock is that the warmage will allow you to spend your invocations on utility and control rather than on your eldritch blast. Still tier 4 but a fun one if you like to blow things up.

Chambers

2013-11-26, 06:00 AM

Agreed, that's why I would recommend picking out spells for new players, at least for their first character. A sorcerer requires knowledge of the game during character creation, but a warmage requires more during actual gameplay, which is something that few players will appreciate the DM automating.

Double Agreed. If the DM wants to puts a little work into making the character then Sorcerer can be just as easy to play and ultimately will be more rewarding because of the breadth of options available.

Gwendol

2013-11-26, 06:12 AM

The warmage can *always* lay down the hurt. It's kind of built in their class. Also, I don't think any other class makes better use of certain feats: magical training (get a spellbook, write down and learn new spells, maximum versatility), versatile spellcaster, searing spell, and piercing cold.
However, they don't get a familiar, and unless you multiclass will stay rather narrow-focused. An optimized warmage can rival a sorcerer however.

Corlindale

2013-11-26, 06:17 AM

A warmage is worse than a sorceror in most ways that matter (and I actually played a warmage for 20 levels, so I have some experience). At first you go "oooh, shiny!" when looking at your expansive spell list and enjoy the actual edge Warmage Edge offers you at low levels (there's a world of difference between 1d4 and 1d4+3 at level 1).

But the more you play, the more you start to feel that most of your shiny spell list is redundant. You will most likely only use a select handful of spells on each level anyway, while dreaming of the versatility of an actual sorceror who would have stuff like Mirror Image, Dimension Door, Fly and Teleport.

The Sudden Metamagic feats are fun, but ultimately underpowered - and they come way too late to be really useful (Sudden Maximize as a 20th level capstone? When I could have picked it as a normal feat at level 1 (or 3 if nonhuman)? Seriously?!)

It's nice enough to have acces to any element in any shape you want at any time, but this could just as easily be accomplished by a sorceror with intelligent spell selection or use of proper Energy Substitution or Sculpt Spell metamagic feats. While still freeing up a ton of spell slots for utility and defense.

Gwendol

2013-11-26, 06:59 AM

Yeah, I think everyone agrees not to play warmage 20, but to diversify along the way: sandshaper, exalted arcanist, prestige bard, etc.

The Insanity

2013-11-26, 07:04 AM

Extra Spell and Arcane Disciple also can add some good spells to the Warmage or Sorcerer.

Karnith

2013-11-26, 07:40 AM

Some other random things to note are that Sorcerers have a few neat ACFs that Warmages don't get access to, like Metamagic Specialist (fun with Arcane Spellsurge shenanigans), they get easier access to the various Heritage feats, and they get random silly things like the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

Wings of flurry is uncapped force damage on a mid level spell. Force damage is almost never resisted, a la energy resistance or subtype, and once you've got it you never need another close range blast because it will scale with caster level forever. Note that it also has a wider AoE than fireball.
Wings of Flurry is also cool because it dazes enemies that fail their saving throws.

Chambers

2013-11-26, 08:22 AM

An optimized warmage can rival a sorcerer however.

Yeah, I think everyone agrees not to play warmage 20, but to diversify along the way: sandshaper, exalted arcanist, prestige bard, etc.

I think these two quotes highlight the problem with the Warmage. The standard way to optimize it is to get other classes spell lists added to its own. If the Warmage was able to carry its own weight as a well designed class then cherry picking other spell lists wouldn't be the standard route.

Compare to the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. Both of them can also benefit from the tricks Warmages use to get spell access but it's not necessary for them whereas if you want to do anything other than Blast with your Warmage you've got to Prestige into one of a handful specific PrC's.

Gwendol

2013-11-26, 08:39 AM

Yup, and it also addresses the OP question on what the difference is. The sorcerer has access to a varied list of spells, and can choose and shape a build according to taste. The warmage is what it is, and build options are more limited.

Talderas

2013-11-26, 09:50 AM

Not necessarily. If you play a sorcerer you only have to know what a handful of spells do (possibly a handful chosen for you by your more knowledgable DM), while playing a warmage requires knowing every spell on your spell list. It can also be tricker to know which one to use - a sorcerer whose 3rd level spells are fireball and fly has one spell for killing people and one for flying around, while a warmage has a huge list of spells which are all some variation upon "bad dude takes damage", and you won't necessarily know which one is the best to use in a certain situation.

I don't think that's the right way to look at it. A new player has to peruse through every sorcerer spell in order to choose the ones he wants to know how to cast. That's 19 0 level spells and 39 1st level spells just to create a 1st level character. The warmage, comparably, needs to only look at four 0 level spells and 13 1st level spells. Five of thse 1st level spells all do basically the same (Lesser Orb) and another three do very similar things (Burning Hands, Cold Touch, Shocking Grasp). So the reality is the warmage has about four 0 level spells and seven 1st level spells that he should understand at a basic level.

The warmage player really and truly has a lot less he needs to understand. Meanwhile a sorcerer player needs to make sure to review all the spells in order to use his limited number of spells known to pick the right choices. Yes, a GM could select spells for the sorcerer but the GM could also tell the warmage that he should probably avoid X, Y, and Z spells. To suggest that a class is easier for a new player because of some GM interjection is rather faulty when you don't consider how a GM can reduce the effort for other options.

ddude987

2013-11-26, 10:04 AM

I'm not exactly sure how the tangent or relevance of "Warmage is easier for new players" but I do know a few pros and cons of the two classes.

For warmage, the main point: You know every spell on your spell list, versatile spellcaster can let you cast spells of a higher level than normally allowed.

Warmage is a nice blaster in a can, you can just stat it up and with the orb spells and a few other nice spells you can do decent damage and have some crowd control. The bonus damage from Int is basically nil after the first few levels of the game, and of course you have a very limited spell list. This list can be expanded by things like sandshaper and rainbow servent, both good options in my opinion.

Sorcerer has more spells to pick from, better spells, and that's really all it has going for it, which is actually a lot seeing as spells are the true overlords of 3.5

Pickford

2013-11-26, 11:34 PM

Kelb_Panthera: One only need to commit simple understanding of common weaknesses (i.e. Fire vs cold things, cold vs fire things, and so forth. In any case, even if one cannot remember simple things like that, the Warmage need not concern itself because it has damage of all types and also untyped options as well.

Then you have one spell that can blast anything that gets in range. 60ft is close but not at all unusual.

Ahem. This tidbit is a problem: (PHB pg. 174-175)
A spell's range is the maximum distance from you that the spell's effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell's point of origin. If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.

So it can't go 60'. It can, at best, be centered on yourself and hit 30' in all directions. That is a very limited range.

While we're at it, here are some Warmage Advanced Learning evocation suggestions:
3rd (up to 1st) - Tenser's Floating Disk
6th (up to 3rd) - Prismatic Mist (PHB II)
11th (up to 5th) - Options: Blistering Radiance, Defenestrating Sphere, Sword of Deception, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Wall of Ice, Wall of Force, Bigby's Interposing Hand, Sending
16th (up to 8th) - Options: Emerald Flame Fist, Contingency, Bigby's Clenched Fist, Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere, Forcecage, Thunder Field

Utility would seem more valuable given the otherwise limited range of skillset for a Warmage.

eggynack

2013-11-27, 02:25 AM

CyberThread

2013-11-27, 02:35 AM

warmages can metamagic the hell out of magic missile.... I can see making a fun force missle mage out of it

Pickford

2013-11-27, 03:08 AM

@Pickford: You seem to be missing the part where wings of flurry deals uncapped damage, and can daze on a failed save. As for easily identifying which enemies have which resistances and immunities, what if the target in question has them from a spell or item instead of having it natively? You mentioned warmage sources of untyped damage, but which ones are you talking about in particular? Would you say that they're superior to wings of flurry? Cause I'm doubtful.

No, but I don't particularly value reflex save spells given the prevalence of evasion/improved evasion. Also dex is pretty common as a secondary stat, so most people have a good reflex save total.

edit: flurry is a d6/CL, that's really not the best possible damage even if it is uncapped.

Mordenkainen's Sword is the best possible single target damage based on total damage output. 140-540 @20 for a Warblade.
(They don't get BBoD, otherwise that would outpace the maximum by far; 4800 max)

eggynack

2013-11-27, 03:49 AM

No, but I don't particularly value reflex save spells given the prevalence of evasion/improved evasion. Also dex is pretty common as a secondary stat, so most people have a good reflex save total.
Those are certainly factors, but they don't stop flurry from being a great spell.

flurry is a d6/CL, that's really not the best possible damage even if it is uncapped.
It's certainly high up there for a fourth level spell, and especially for an untyped fourth that hits an area. Also, you get to choose targets, so there's no friendly fire. It's a fantastic rate in general

Mordenkainen's Sword is the best possible single target damage based on total damage output. 140-540 @20 for a Warblade.
(They don't get BBoD, otherwise that would outpace the maximum by far; 4800 max)
Those are kinda really high level. The sword also deals its damage over a duration, which is a bad thing.