Home Brew Fighter "fix"

[Bonzai]

Hello,

I have started a 3.5 Home brew campaign, and wanted to give the fighter a little more Oomph. Feats are great, but they have a lot of dead levels. My Fix? Weapon Style Trees. This is a class feature that will be added to the standard fighter class. I am working on an entire list of them, and could use some constructive input in regards to balance and whether the whole endeavor is going to be worth the effort. If it is broken, then show me how to break it. I was designing an NPC to use this first weapon style, so feed back would be great.

Weapon Style Trees:Starting at 3rd level a fighter gets to pick an ability from a Weapon Style Tree. Every odd level there after, a fighter can pick two additional abilities. The fighter can pick from any tree, but the abilities must be taken in order. For example, a 5th level fighter who took the first long spear weapon style ability at third level could choose the 2nd Long Spear weapon style ability or the first weapon style ability from any tree. You cannot pick more than one ability per level from the same tree.

Example:

Dual Pistol Style
*Using the rules in the DMG (Table 5-4). Also, an additional house rule in my campaign, is that they are treated as heavy cross bows in terms of feats, enhancements, abilities, spells, etc... So for example, taking the rapid reload feat would reduce loading to a move action instead of a full round.

1. Pistol Whip: Pistols can be used as improvised clubs without penalty, and allow you to threaten adjacent squares.

2. Dual Shot: You may fire a second pistol in your off hand simultaneously with a pistol in your primary. If you do, it is at a -4 to hit on your primary, and a -8 on your off hand.

3. Crack Shot: add your dex modifier to damage rolls from pistol shots.

4. Improved Dual Shot: The penalty for firing a pistol with your off hand drops to -6.

5. Keen Shot: The crit range on your pistols improves to 19-20.

6. Greater Dual Shot: Penalties for firing a pistol with your off hand drop to -4.

7. Cover Fire: You count as flanking an opponent up to 50ft away. You yourself do not gain the benefits of flanking, but any allies that flank the same target do.

8. Dual shot Mastery: The penalties for shooting two pistols are reduced to -2 for both primary and secondary.

9. Devastating shot: Crits from your pistols deal 4x damage instead of 3x.

That's the first draft of my first attempt at these. Eventually I want to cover a lot of different combinations. Sword & Shield, Sword & Axe, long spear, Axe & Shield, etc... The intent is add flavor, add some benefits not well covered in normal feats or class features, and make fighter a bit more appealing as a class.

I'll post more weapon style lists as I finish them. In the mean time critique away.

[Kane0]

After witnessing your fighter fix, please allow me to welcome you properly into the Homebrewer Brotherhood :smallsmile:

That out of the way, lets get down to business.

Weapon styles are a good start, but usually as a replacement for stale bonus feats rather than in addition to. You could look into the PF fighter for ideas if you are stuck on individual abilities.

The thing is though, is that the fighter actually fights okay, its everything else where he fails. A fighter can be built to perform in combat but has no skills to speak of, lacks of class abilities that allow for utilitarian stuff and has no additional mechanics like spells, maneuvers, Incarnum, binding, etc that provide the wealth of options and capabilities that those things bring to the table.
The PF fighter is actually a good example of a fighter fix that pumps his numbers and makes him better at fighting, yet doesn't actually fix the core of the problem.

Many fighter fixes (see my sig) add on new or existing mechanics. The issue with that is then the fighter loses its simplicity of design, which is a part of its appeal. As such you end up with 2 camps, the simple or quick & dirty fighter fixes and the overhauls (which range in exactly how much they alter and introduce).
In an ideal situation bringing those two ideologies together would make the holy grail of fighter fixes, but such a compromise is difficult it best.

It's a balancing act between giving the fighter neat new things to do other than fight in his preferred way, and giving him so much that the class becomes too powerful or too much of a pain to use in play.

[Bonzai]

After witnessing your fighter fix, please allow me to welcome you properly into the Homebrewer Brotherhood :smallsmile:

That out of the way, lets get down to business.

Weapon styles are a good start, but usually as a replacement for stale bonus feats rather than in addition to. You could look into the PF fighter for ideas if you are stuck on individual abilities.

The thing is though, is that the fighter actually fights okay, its everything else where he fails. A fighter can be built to perform in combat but has no skills to speak of, lacks of class abilities that allow for utilitarian stuff and has no additional mechanics like spells, maneuvers, Incarnum, binding, etc that provide the wealth of options and capabilities that those things bring to the table.
The PF fighter is actually a good example of a fighter fix that pumps his numbers and makes him better at fighting, yet doesn't actually fix the core of the problem.

Many fighter fixes (see my sig) add on new or existing mechanics. The issue with that is then the fighter loses its simplicity of design, which is a part of its appeal. As such you end up with 2 camps, the simple or quick & dirty fighter fixes and the overhauls (which range in exactly how much they alter and introduce).
In an ideal situation bringing those two ideologies together would make the holy grail of fighter fixes, but such a compromise is difficult it best.

It's a balancing act between giving the fighter neat new things to do other than fight in his preferred way, and giving him so much that the class becomes too powerful or too much of a pain to use in play.

Thanks for the feed back. Yeah, this doesn't fix a fighter's lack of variety. However what I like about it is that it feels like it meshes really well with the bonus feats fighters get. For the Dual pistol tree, feats like quick draw, rapid reload, shot on the run, etc... will all help accentuate the functionality and flavor of the build. That is my main goal with this. It doesn't help fighters close the gap between them and Martial initiator classes, but it all helps.


All that being said, any feed back on the tree it's self?

[Grod_The_Giant]

The fighter can pick from any tree, but the abilities must be taken in order.
This is a bit of an issue, as it creates a direct conflict between versatility and power. Assuming that tree abilities scale in a level-appropriate manner, you have the option of getting a powerful ability, or something that would have been useful a few levels ago. Instead, I'd advance trees automatically, and allow fighters to pick a few more as they take more levels in the class.


1. Pistol Whip: Pistols can be used as improvised clubs without penalty, and allow you to threaten adjacent squares.
Does that mean no -4 improvised weapon penalty?


2. Dual Shot: You may fire a second pistol in your off hand simultaneously with a pistol in your primary. If you do, it is at a -4 to hit on your primary, and a -8 on your off hand.
More-or-less utter crap. At least make it -4/-4, with the off-hand counting as a light weapon, and stacking with TWF. The combat style is bad enough as it is. (Also, couldn't you already do this?)


3. Gunslinger: firing pistols doesn't trigger an attack of opportunity.
Meh.


5. Keen Shot: The crit range on your pistols improves to 19-20.
Does it stack with Improved Critical, Keen, and suchlike?


7. Crack Shot: add your dex modifier to damage rolls from pistol shots.
Could (should) have come way sooner.


9. Devastating shot: Crits from your pistols deal 4x damage instead of 3x.
Eh.

It's... alright, I suppose, but most of the abilities are just feats. (Improved Critical, Crossbow Sniper...). Try to think about the weaknesses of the style (ie, lack of iterative attacks), and provide ways to address them, as well as completely new abilities. (Shoot the weapons out of people's hands! Fire shots that ricochet around and hit people from behind!)

[Bonzai]

This is a bit of an issue, as it creates a direct conflict between versatility and power. Assuming that tree abilities scale in a level-appropriate manner, you have the option of getting a powerful ability, or something that would have been useful a few levels ago. Instead, I'd advance trees automatically, and allow fighters to pick a few more as they take more levels in the class.


First, I appreciate the candid feed back. This is a good point. I wanted to incentivise going straight fighter, and scaling the tree seemed a good start. I suppose I could make it scale like a Ranger's favored enemy. Pick one at lvl 3, and then it automatically improves and you pick another each odd level. That is something to think about and a good suggestion.



Does that mean no -4 improvised weapon penalty?


Yup. Not a huge ability, but it allows you to be armed even when the pistol is unloaded or has been fired, and can allow you to take attacks of opportunity.



More-or-less utter crap. At least make it -4/-4, with the off-hand counting as a light weapon, and stacking with TWF. The combat style is bad enough as it is. (Also, couldn't you already do this?)


Without this it would have been a -8/-10 penalty, dropping it by 2 if they are counted as light weapons (which I did). Keep in mind that this is not quite like two weapon fighting. This isn't just one extra attack, this is an extra attack each time you shoot. Assuming that you had a bandolier and quick draw, at lvl 20 you would be shooting 8 shots at 18/18/13/13/8/8/3/3/ (not including possible haste, rapid shot, or other additional attacks or effects).



Meh.


Yeah. Decent, but this is the one thing that can be replicated with a feat. Perhaps the dex for damage should go here?



Does it stack with Improved Critical, Keen, and suchlike?


Yes.



Could (should) have come way sooner.


Possibly. Might be worth moving to the third ability.



Eh.

It's... alright, I suppose, but most of the abilities are just feats. (Improved Critical, Crossbow Sniper...). Try to think about the weaknesses of the style (ie, lack of iterative attacks), and provide ways to address them, as well as completely new abilities. (Shoot the weapons out of people's hands! Fire shots that ricochet around and hit people from behind!)

Ranged Disarm is represented already with a feat. Things like that are why I think it's important to keep the normal fighter bonus feats along with the new Weapon Style trees. It allows you to really trick out the build. Will have to look at the richochet aspect, but having access to most archery stuff I am sure there are plenty of options.

If I remove the 3rd ability, and moved down the 7th to it's spot, then I will have to come up with one more ability not covered by the feats. I am thinking maybe a quicker reload that stacks with the rapid reload feat and vice versa.

Keep the comments coming!

[Bonzai]

OK, after some thought I made some changes to the original post. First, I added an additional weapon tree choice starting at 5th level. This gives a little more variety and choice. Second, I removed the 3rd level ability, replaced it with the dex to damage, and added the new 7th level ability.

Thoughts?

[illyahr]

Go ahead and take a look at the Pathfinder fighter. It covers a lot of what you are trying to do here and you might find some inspiration for a blended 3.5/PF homebrew.