What's it actually like?

[Tiiba]

To know what the Monster in the Darkness is.
To know what will happen to Belkar.
To know what will finally wipe the smug smile off that jerkface Tarquin's face.
To know what V's gender is.

And not tell anyone.

For years.

Are you not tempted? Do secrets not haunt your dreams? Do they not become fear, and fear madness? Do you not dread that one day, when you least expect it, your secrets will become weapons in the hands of your enemies?

Give in to your fear. Release us. Loose us. Tell us! Tell us! Tell us!!!

[Sloanzilla]

I'd say #3 has already happened and #4 is Marcellus Wallace's briefcase- there is no answer.

[Muenster Man]

To know what the Monster in the Darkness is.
To know what will happen to Belkar.
To know what will finally wipe the smug smile off that jerkface Tarquin's face.
To know what V's gender is.

And not tell anyone.

For years.

Are you not tempted? Do secrets not haunt your dreams? Do they not become fear, and fear madness? Do you not dread that one day, when you least expect it, your secrets will become weapons in the hands of your enemies?

Give in to your fear. Release us. Loose us. Tell us! Tell us! Tell us!!!

If it were me, it would probably be pretty frustrating. Every comment I would make on the forum would have to be double-checked just to make sure I hadn't accidentally given too much away.

And let's be honest, if he flat out told us the answers to questions like that, virtually everyone would feel let down :smallfrown:. Super-anticlimactic. Elan would be disappointed.

[Tiiba]

I'd say #3 has already happened and #4 is Marcellus Wallace's briefcase- there is no answer.

He may not be smiling, technically, but he still thinks he's the big bad.

[Rakoa]

I'd say #3 has already happened and #4 is Marcellus Wallace's briefcase- there is no answer.

And to be pooping on your party even more, it was diamonds.

[Sloanzilla]

Used to people here trying to poop on my parade, but

Tarantino has admitted that there is no official explanation behind the briefcase's contents, and that it was simply written into the screen play as an intriguing McGuffin.

http://www.snopes.com/movies/films/pulpfiction.asp

[nyjastul69]

And to be pooping on your party even more, it was diamonds.

The diamonds that Mr. Pink escaped with in Reservoir Dogs was one of the original ideas for the briefcase contents, but the makers decided to leave it an unknown. It's a classic MacGuffin.

Edit: Also, in case there are those that are unaware: Vick Vega, Mr. Black in RD, is the brother of Vincent Vega (Vinnie Barbarino's character in PF)

Yes, I know, it's actually John Travolta. I just have a hard time putting him a role outside of one of the Sweathogs. ;)

[Chessalavakia]

Would one actually know all of those answers for years? I'd assume you might have a general idea but I'd assume the plot is moving at least somewhat.

[137beth]

Would one actually know all of those answers for years? I'd assume you might have a general idea but I'd assume the plot is moving at least somewhat.

He said that he decided on what the MitD was around strip 100...
and also that he decided V's gender on strip 1, but changed it to 'undefined' around strip 8. So yea, he presumeably knows V's original gender (not what it is portrayed as now), and what the MitD is, and has known for years.

The other two? No idea.

[Heksefatter]

He said that he decided on what the MitD was around strip 100...
and also that he decided V's gender on strip 1, but changed it to 'undefined' around strip 8. So yea, he presumeably knows V's original gender (not what it is portrayed as now), and what the MitD is, and has known for years.

The other two? No idea.

Don't we generally know what V's original gender was? I believe that the Giant said something to the effect of having "smurfetted" the Order initially,which I took as meaning that there was only one female (Haley, in case of doubt). So V had to be male.

However, due to there being a split reaction as to V's gender, the Giant made it a running gag.

[Rakoa]

Don't we generally know what V's original gender was? I believe that the Giant said something to the effect of having "smurfetted" the Order initially,which I took as meaning that there was only one female (Haley, in case of doubt). So V had to be male.

However, due to there being a split reaction as to V's gender, the Giant made it a running gag.

It's true that the Giant made this a running gag for that reason, and that he admitted to Smurfetting the Order, but it is unclear if he meant "one female" or "few females".

[FujinAkari]

Don't we generally know what V's original gender was? I believe that the Giant said something to the effect of having "smurfetted" the Order initially,which I took as meaning that there was only one female (Haley, in case of doubt). So V had to be male.


No we do not. The term 'smurfetted' refers to having one (and only one) character representing all female stereotypes. V's original gender is irrelevant, as V wasn't taking on any female stereotypes regardless.

[SavageWombat]

I've run campaigns where I've had to keep secrets for years, and it's a lot easier if you have one person you can trust to keep a secret. Then you can both giggle maniacally together.

[Kish]

Don't we generally know what V's original gender was? I believe that the Giant said something to the effect of having "smurfetted" the Order initially,which I took as meaning that there was only one female (Haley, in case of doubt).
No. Rich said that the Order is (present tense) Smurfetted, meaning the Order has one established female. This is the case whether Vaarsuvius is or was originally male or female, since Vaarsuvius is not established anything. He did not say, "I initially Smurfetted the Order, before I fixed it by making it four male, one female, and one unestablished."

[Tiiba]

I did not actually intend for ancient debates to be roused from their too-brief slumber. World, I'm sorry.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He said that he decided on what the MitD was around strip 100...
and also that he decided V's gender on strip 1, but changed it to 'undefined' around strip 8.

More impressively, he knew that Durkon would eventually be turned into a vampire since strip 3. V not having a gender is a running joke, and he can amuse himself by dropping hints about MitD and watching us fail to put the clues together about MitD, but he kept the vampire thing under wraps for ten years.

Grey Wolf

[MonochromeTiger]

More impressively, he knew that Durkon would eventually be turned into a vampire since strip 3. V not having a gender is a running joke, and he can amuse himself by dropping hints about MitD and watching us fail to put the clues together about MitD, but he kept the vampire thing under wraps for ten years.

Grey Wolf

I have to admit keeping a plot point completely hidden that long while still throwing out minor hints to things IS pretty impressive.


I did not actually intend for ancient debates to be roused from their too-brief slumber. World, I'm sorry.

no one INTENDS to awaken the slumbering old one known as "fan-debate" but sadly its cultists influence everyone at some level... should we all survive this I hold no ill will towards you friend.

[Muenster Man]

More impressively, he knew that Durkon would eventually be turned into a vampire since strip 3. V not having a gender is a running joke, and he can amuse himself by dropping hints about MitD and watching us fail to put the clues together about MitD, but he kept the vampire thing under wraps for ten years.

Grey Wolf

Bolding mine

You sound a little jaded about MitD's identity...

[MonochromeTiger]

Bolding mine

You sound a little jaded about MitD's identity...

in grey wolf's defense there DOES seem to be a ton of debate about it with absolutely no conclusive or agreed upon answer.

[Muenster Man]

in grey wolf's defense there DOES seem to be a ton of debate about it with absolutely no conclusive or agreed upon answer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to call out Grey Wolf or anything like that. But after seeing people repeatedly rehash old ideas on the MitD identity threads with no regard for what has been previously discussed about at great lengths over the course of what has to be at least a few years and then a comment like that... it just seems to me the whole ordeal may have taken a bit of a toll on Grey Wolf.

[Jay R]

We all know what it's like. It's what we go through between buying or making somebody a present, and watching them open it.

[oppyu]

I did not actually intend for ancient debates to be roused from their too-brief slumber. World, I'm sorry.
Speak of the devil, and people will start arguing about it.

*cough*

Hey guys, I was just wondering if Familicide was morally justified.

[MonochromeTiger]

Speak of the devil, and people will start arguing about it.

*cough*

Hey guys, I was just wondering if Familicide was morally justified.

no, neither was attacking V's family, neither was attacking the YBD, neither was sending roy on a supposed fool's errand to get star metal, neither was breaking roy's sword, neither was ignoring a blood oath until finally deciding it's your kid's problem, neither was killing a wizard's master for a crown (even if it is another kind of hat...wait...hat..ok justified for taking a hat).

...I need no moral debate for the power of hats keeps me warm through this cold and troubling time of arguing in polite tones..

[rodneyAnonymous]

Edit: Also, in case there are those that are unaware: Vick Vega, Mr. Black in RD...

Mr. Blonde. Nobody was Mr. Black... if they got to pick their own names, everyone would want to be Mr. Black, but they don't know each other so nobody backs down.

[Cavenskull]

Hey guys, I was just wondering if Familicide was morally justified.
Of course. Why wouldn't Vaarsuvius have come up with some moral justification before casting it? Granted, that justification is completely objectionable to many other people, but Vaarsuvius thought the justification was good enough at the time.

[AKA_Bait]

Hey guys, I was just wondering if Familicide was morally justified.

Before this gets out of hand y'all, oppyu is joking here not actually attempting to start a discussion on whether Familicide was actually morally justified. Topics of that nature got populous and vitriolic enough that the Giant decided to make "was x morally justified" threads de facto prohibited (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9914344).

[137beth]

Speak of the devil, and people will start arguing about it.

*cough*

Hey guys, I was just wondering if Familicide was morally justified.

Ooh, better question: is derailing a thread by talking about the update schedule morally justified? What about asking about the moral justification of starting morally justified arguments?
Is this thread Morally Justified?


On topic: what must it be like for the Giant to have very strong opinions on what is Morally Justified, but having to resist the temptation to share your opinion on a forum because you know any discussion about Moral Justification will devolve into politics?

[Trillium]

Are "morally justified" threads even morally justified themselves? O_o

[oppyu]

Before this gets out of hand y'all, oppyu is joking here not actually attempting to start a discussion on whether Familicide was actually morally justified. Topics of that nature got populous and vitriolic enough that the Giant decided to make "was x morally justified" threads de facto prohibited (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9914344).
Eep, I probably should have made that more readily apparent. Sorry folks.

[AKA_Bait]

On topic: What's it like to have a longer Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Burlew) than the Chief Judge of New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Lippman)? Does the amount of nerd attention become disquieting?

[Trillium]

On topic: What's it like to have a longer Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Burlew) than the Chief Judge of New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Lippman)? Does the amount of nerd attention become disquieting?

Huh? Why doesn't an author deserve a longer entry than some random bureaucrat, of whom most foreign people have never ever heard?

[AKA_Bait]

Huh? Why doesn't an author deserve a longer entry than some random bureaucrat, of whom most foreign people have never ever heard?

I wasn't trying to imply anything about deserve and I don't think that I can really respond to the "some random bureaucrat" remark within the forum rules. Really, I could have picked any of thousands of public figures to make my point. I picked Lippman as an example because he's a relatively well known figure in New York (he has the same job as CJ Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderick_L._Ireland)does in MA, who the Giant also has a longer entry than, if that helps put it in context for you) and I personally would find it disquieting to have that level of third-party attention. I know some folks thrive on that sort of thing, but the Giant's posts on here have never struck me as being made by someone who wants that much attention.

[talkamancer]

To know what the Monster in the Darkness is.
To know what will happen to Belkar.
To know what will finally wipe the smug smile off that jerkface Tarquin's face.
To know what V's gender is.

And not tell anyone.

For years.

Give in to your fear. Release us. Loose us. Tell us! Tell us! Tell us!!!

So looking at wiki lead me to an interview with the Giant, which I found this within....


Probably the best moment for me in my recent gaming career came in a campaign where the PCs had been traveling with a bumbling NPC paladin since the beginning of the story. I finally revealed… that this so-called "paladin" was actually the very enemy they had been pursuing the entire time, and that he had in fact been using the PCs to aid his nefarious deeds. It was very tough for me to keep from blurting that out to the players for so long, but the payoff was great. And did they ever enjoy hunting him down after that.


Hmm do we have a villain within ? A mole perhaps ? Is O-Chul not all he seams ?

[Trillium]

So looking at wiki lead me to an interview with the Giant, which I found this within....

Hmm do we have a villain within ? A mole perhaps ? Is O-Chul not all he seams ?

I guess it was sort of a nod to Miko, rather than O-Chul.

[talkamancer]

I guess it was sort of a nod to Miko, rather than O-Chul.

The interview predated his creation of the order. It was when he had been down selected to 3 in the WOC competition.

I suppose I quoted it to show that he is a serial keeper of secrets.

There will be others we don't know about yet, many little eggs dropped into the story so far to hatch much later.

[Coat]

Is this thread Morally Justified?


No. It's left aligned.

[AKA_Bait]

No. It's left aligned.

No politics! :smallwink:

[Mighty_Chicken]

To know what the Monster in the Darkness is.
To know what will happen to Belkar.
To know what will finally wipe the smug smile off that jerkface Tarquin's face.
To know what V's gender is.

And not tell anyone.

For years.

Certainly better than have hundreds of story ideas, and not being able to share with anyone. It must be extremely satisfying.

However, come creators like Blizzard's Chris Metzen can't keep their mouths shut about spoilers. So maybe it's hard.

I remember the Giant being extremely pissed like 6 or 7 years ago about people "spoilering" the story with their predictions. Forum rules used to be more strict about it. Now it's like a national sport, everyone is not just predicting but also commenting about other people's predictments.

EDIT: What, Rich was planning Durkola since strip #3? How do you knoe that? This forum is hard to follow if you don't read it every week :P

[Kish]

EDIT: What, Rich was planning Durkola since strip #3? How do you knoe that? This forum is hard to follow if you don't read it every week :P
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15709954#post15709954) is why the Phantasm maintains his incredibly useful Index of the Giant's Comments (Reloaded).

[Trillium]

However, come creators like Blizzard's Chris Metzen can't keep their mouths shut about spoilers. So maybe it's hard.



Well, Metzen doesn't really plan his storylines. He just pulls them out of... orifices... when he needs them.

[Cirin]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to call out Grey Wolf or anything like that. But after seeing people repeatedly rehash old ideas on the MitD identity threads with no regard for what has been previously discussed about at great lengths over the course of what has to be at least a few years and then a comment like that... it just seems to me the whole ordeal may have taken a bit of a toll on Grey Wolf.

Well, for one, not everybody is on these boards constantly and follows the MitD discussions at length. For every person who is a regular on these boards, reading every thread and knowing the in-depth history of a discussion you've got countless readers who never show up but have their own pet theories, and may even be discussing them in other places. Then you've got those like me, who aren't regular posters, but come to these boards occasionally when they've got a pet theory to bring up, or a question to ask, or just want to talk about how awesome the last strip was.

Second, people have their theories, that while Grey Wolf may have discounted them, they may still believe them and not believe his "debunking" of them.

I recently mentioned the best theory that I had heard about the MitD, the one I personally believe, and was responded to with a pat, pretty much dismissive response from Grey Wolf about how that theory doesn't fit one specific scene. I honestly disagreed with his conclusion, believing that it was a weak disproof at best (that scene with that monster wasn't impossible, but it was a little odd) and that the theory is such a strong fit for every other scene the theory is the best fit yet for the MitD. However, I realized that arguing that would be pointless, as minds had been made up that this was impossible, so no point arguing.

Frankly, remember this is a board where people argued at length that Miko shouldn't have fallen, that Belkar wasn't Evil, and that Familicide was completely justified. That should tell you that no matter how "wrong" a viewpoint is, people will argue against it to the ends of the Earth.

No matter what the MitD is, somebody has almost certainly suggested it, and an obscure proof of why that is impossible has been created.

So, yes, no matter when or how it is revealed, in many ways it will be a let-down because of a decade (or more) of hype behind it, it will also be "wrong" to the eyes of some people because it was disproved.

I expect a "The MitD CAN'T be THAT!" thread to be truly monumental when "the reveal" comes.

[AKA_Bait]

Frankly, remember this is a board where people argued at length that Miko shouldn't have fallen, that Belkar wasn't Evil, and that Familicide was completely justified. That should tell you that no matter how "wrong" a viewpoint is, people will argue against it to the ends of the Earth.

No matter what the MitD is, somebody has almost certainly suggested it, and an obscure proof of why that is impossible has been created.

So, yes, no matter when or how it is revealed, in many ways it will be a let-down because of a decade (or more) of hype behind it, it will also be "wrong" to the eyes of some people because it was disproved.


It will be something of a let down also because, let's face it, the arguing about what it could be is a big part of the fun. That is, it is fun as long as everyone remains civil to one another.

For the record, I actually like your suggestion about the MitD because
I think it would be hilarious to have the big reveal of the creature of which we have seen nothing that is perpetually shrouded in darkness with nothing visible but its eyes is . . . a creature shrouded in darkness with nothing visible except its eyes, but with armor. I have no thoughts as to how probable it is, but it would entertaining.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bolding mine

You sound a little jaded about MitD's identity...

Eh. That was more self-deprecating humour. There is only so many times you can see someone absolutely convinced that (monster) is the MitD, all with equal conviction and all with completely different suggestions before you come to the sad realisation that we simply don't know.

Take Cirin's post. I honestly have no idea which suggestion he is talking about. I can think, off the top of my head, at least two dozen suggestions that I "offhandedly" (in fact, I aim for "drily") pointed out where they failed to match one of the major scenes [Edit: actually, lets make it an even 25, since I recently dismissed the Zodar in such a way, even though I am privately confident enough he could be MitD I bet on it]. Mind you, most of those are probably Crusher's endless list of good suggestions, but a few come from others. From Cirin's almost-insulting diatribe, I'm guessing it is more likely one of the latter, since Crusher doesn't really get worked up about his suggestions not meeting FBS standards (probably because he, unlike Cirin, understands the point of it).

Last I counted, we have had 150-odd suggestions at least minimally defended in the MitD thread. They cannot all be right, so at this point, all things being equal, there is less than 1% chance that the latest "this is the MitD, can't you, stupid Grey Wolf, see?" actually is the MitD. Since my job in the thread is to keep things organised, these supposedly offhanded remarks that offend Cirin so much are in fact a shorthand way of identifying where I'll be placing the suggestion, nothing more, nothing less.

Grey Wolf, breaking the forum rules by morally justifying his own existence

[Kish]

Cirin's talking about the 2ed Zodar, I think.

I don't really see the results of a perceived obligation to use more words to refute it going Cirin's way. (Has no abilities that would explain being able to recognize Tsukiko's half-a-ritual as half-a-ritual. Characterized by showing no emotion. Can speak, in any language or in multiple languages at once, three times in its life, such that the hunters' reaction to it speaking makes no sense and the creature in the darkness continuing to speak as much as he likes is something strange that would need explanation. Specifically vulnerable to physical attacks: if it was restricted to bludgeoning in 2ed, I couldn't find that information. Basically, we've got strong, ugly, and rare--worse than the tarrasque, which is bad.)

[Cirin]

Take Cirin's post. I honestly have no idea which suggestion he is talking about. I can think, off the top of my head, at least two dozen suggestions that I "offhandedly" (in fact, I aim for "drily") pointed out where they failed to match one of the major scenes [Edit: actually, lets make it an even 25, since I recently dismissed the Zodar in such a way, even though I am privately confident enough he could be MitD I bet on it]. Mind you, most of those are probably Crusher's endless list of good suggestions, but a few come from others. From Cirin's almost-insulting diatribe, I'm guessing it is more likely one of the latter, since Crusher doesn't really get worked up about his suggestions not meeting FBS standards (probably because he, unlike Cirin, understands the point of it).


I don't know who Crusher is, or what "FBS standards" are, and I think part of the problem is assuming that everybody out there knows who that is and what they are.

I'm an occasional poster who pops in every so often because I think a specific strip was really cool and want to talk about it, or has a question or idea I'd like to bring up. I've got two jobs and a family, I don't spend a huge amount of time on internet message boards, and this isn't even the main board I read when I am on the internet.

On some other places online, and offline, there is some degree of consensus about what the probably MitD is. I agree with that theory, it's the strongest theory I've heard put forth. I mentioned that theory in passing.

I felt like I was dismissively, brusquely shoved off with a pat answer that it didn't fit "one of the major scenes". I disagree. While it's not an exact fit for that scene, it's not a hard disproof either (that scene isn't impossible if it's that creature, it's just a little odd). However, I realized that debating it would be pointless, since you've thrown the idea out already.

The Order of the Stick is a very popular webcomic. There are lots of people who read it who don't post here, or post here rarely and don't keep up with the regular discussion. Heck, my wife likes it. . .and she only reads the print books, much less reads it online or posts to a message board. Thus, there are a lot of people who read and discuss the OotS who aren't intimately familiar with the specifics of your discussion thread about the MitD, have their own theories, and might feel put off at having their idea so nonchalantly shot down like it's so obviously not that. . .especially if they feel that the disproof is weak.

[Jay R]

On topic: What's it like to have a longer Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Burlew) than the Chief Judge of New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Lippman)? Does the amount of nerd attention become disquieting?

The length of a wikipedia article has nothing to do with the importance of the subject, and everything to do with how much people have to say on the topic.

For instance, Rich's entry is slightly longer because he cut his thumb. That doesn't make him more popular, or more important. It's just a relevant fact that takes space.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know who Crusher is, or what "FBS standards" are, and I think part of the problem is assuming that everybody out there knows who that is and what they are.

And yet the title of the thread includes the words "Please Read the First Post", and said first post includes answers to all those things you don't know about. So no, the problem isn't that I assume everyone knows about them, it is that I assume people should read the first post.

I have spent, easily, weeks on that post, to make it easier for people just like you to be able to get up to speed on the thread without having to read 300 pages worth of discussion. People that think their idea is so unique and perfect and novel that they don't need to read any bleeding first post, because how could these morons that have been talking about MitD for 6 threads could possibly have objections to this most perfect suggestion don't get my sympathy. It takes maybe 30 minutes to skim through the first post (including using search to plow through the suggestion list). If you can't devote that kind of time to get up to speed, why should I spend any kind of time giving you the arguments we have already hashed out against suggestions?

Grey Wolf

[Cirin]

Cirin's talking about the 2ed Zodar, I think.

I don't really see the results of a perceived obligation to use more words to refute it going Cirin's way. (Has no abilities that would explain being able to recognize Tsukiko's half-a-ritual as half-a-ritual. Characterized by showing no emotion. Can speak, in any language or in multiple locations at once, three times in its life, such that the hunters' reaction to it speaking makes no sense and the creature in the darkness continuing to speak as much as he likes is something strange that would need explanation. Specifically vulnerable to physical attacks: if it was restricted to bludgeoning in 2ed, I couldn't find that information. Basically, we've got strong, ugly, and rare--worse than the tarrasque, which is bad.)

Yes, I am talking about the 2e Zodar.

About the talking. The exact quote from the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix entry for Zodar was:

"Zodar can cause speech to issue from the air about themselves thrice in a lifetime. Thus they select these times with great care. When a zodar speaks, it uses its words as sparingly as possible."

So, the Monster Hunters reacting with such alarm that it was casually talking to them would fit, because while it can talk, it's extremely bizarre that it would be talking so casually and so much. Even hearing a zodar talk once would be a big deal, finding one that's chatty? That's unheard of.

About emotions, we know that the MitD doesn't know what it is, it wasn't raised among its own kind, and if its emotionlessness is a cultural aspect, it wasn't raised with it. The MitD only knew its father, and knows his father wasn't much like the rest of his kind. So, it may lack cultural aspects of behavior, like stoicism.

Grey Wolf's standard disproof of the zodar is the circus scene. We just know that a zodar looks like a hulking 500-pound humanoid mass of pure muscle in ominous jet-black spiked crystaline armor with two little slits for eyes. I'd say that's something goblins would say is awesome, and folks of weaker stomachs might be disturbed by. While not an exact fit, I don't think the circus scene completely makes this an impossible choice.

As for understanding the ritual, it's intelligence is listed as "Unknown" and it is described having "an unusual relationship with magic". So, it's not a contradiction to say it might have odd or special insight about magical rituals. I doubt any published D&D creature has the special ability explicitly listed that it innately understands magic rituals combining divine and arcane magic to hand control of a hole in reality over to an evil god.

No matter what it is, you can argue it is or isn't, and because it's already established that the MitD is not a typical member of its kind, it won't neatly fit the monster description of any creature.

I've heard it described as being immune to piercing and slashing, but the actual entry just says that it has a -8 AC, in AD&D terms. For those who aren't familiar with AD&D, the lower the better, and a Tarrasque only has a -3, and +5 Full Plate Mail (the strongest armor available to a PC) only gives you a -4 AC. So, thanks to it's incredibly strong natural exoskeleton it is nigh-invincible to weapon attacks through a ridiculously powerful Armor Class.

The biggest place where it doesn't fit, to me, is that a 2e zodar has 100% magic resistance (in 2e terms), but Xykon managed to charm/dominate it. I think that was quite possibly Epic magic at work, since Epic magic gets to ignore the normal rules and we know Xykon is an epic caster.

As a bonus, the alignment of a 2e Zodar is Chaotic Neutral, tending towards Chaotic Good. Honestly, I think that describes the MitD rather well.

I personally believe that's the best fit of any theory. It's not perfect, none of the theories are, but I think it's the best fit.

[AKA_Bait]

The length of a wikipedia article has nothing to do with the importance of the subject, and everything to do with how much people have to say on the topic.

I understand that. I added it as something I'd like to know what "it is actually like" because I'm curious how it feels to be the subject of an entry about which folks have that much to say, especially when viewed comparatively with other entries that, for whatever reason, do not have the same level of detail. On the very slight chance that the Giant reads this thread and feels like responding, I'm interested to hear his perspective, not least because I'm a Wikipedia editor myself.

[Cirin]

And yet the title of the thread includes the words "Please Read the First Post", and said first post includes answers to all those things you don't know about. So no, the problem isn't that I assume everyone knows about them, it is that I assume people should read the first post.

I have spent, easily, weeks on that post, to make it easier for people just like you to be able to get up to speed on the thread without having to read 300 pages worth of discussion. People that think their idea is so unique and perfect and novel that they don't need to read any bleeding first post, because how could these morons that have been talking about MitD for 6 threads could possibly have objections to this most perfect suggestion don't get my sympathy. It takes maybe 30 minutes to skim through the first post (including using search to plow through the suggestion list). If you can't devote that kind of time to get up to speed, why should I spend any kind of time giving you the arguments we have already hashed out against suggestions?

Grey Wolf

I DIDN'T POST IN YOUR MONSTER IN THE DARKNESS THREAD!!!

I haven't ever done that to my knowledge, maybe I did once years and years ago but I don't recall. I posted my theory in a thread entitled "Is the Mitd a non-d&d creature?"

Gee, no "You have to do the required reading before posting in this thread" in the title for thread. No, I didn't spend a half-hour doing the required reading to post in a completely separate thread!

[Spoomeister]

Just a note of support to both Cirin and Grey Wolf, since "welcoming to new guys" v. "long-standing discussions and theories" is a VERY challenging balance to strike for all fandoms of pretty much anything that has been around for some time.

"Here's your required reading" is very off-putting and sounds pretty stereotypically nerdy and dorky. Following a piece of media is supposed to be fun and relaxing, not some 200-level college course with prereqs.

"Oh god, not this again, for the hundredth time we have already worked out X, Y, Z" is also very easy to be sympathetic to, because who wants to have the same conversation over and over again? And there's sometimes some arrogance attached to people's pet theories. (Not saying that's the case in this thread. I'm speaking in general.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Gee, no "You have to do the required reading before posting in this thread" in the title for thread. No, I didn't spend a half-hour doing the required reading to post in a completely separate thread!

And this is the exact reason, I believe, why the mods don't like two threads on the same topic. Because they are not "completely separate" - zodar has been proposed in both, which makes them the exact same damn thread. I am not going to explain myself in two different places, I am just going to link you to the correct thread, because to do otherwise is to break forum rules. I am also not going to defend my comment on the zodar here, for the exact same reason.

By the way, since the zodar is a d&d creature, why were you posting it in a thread about non-d&d creatures?

And I'm sorry, but you shouting at me doesn't change the fact that I politely linked you to the right place for the extended explanation, as I am required to do.

GW

[ChristianSt]

I don't know why, but I have the feeling this thread got somehow mixed up with another thread (probably Is the Mitd a non-d&d creature? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316010)), because some posts here make absolutely no sense to me in regards to the rest of thread (and its topic).

On the topic: I don't think it is that hard, there are enough people that have great secrets that they are not ready to reveal anytime soon, especially in longer fantasy series. I think there are enough people who would kill to know what GRRM has to tell about what the heck is happening in "A Song of Ice and Fire". (I would certainly not kill for it, but the waiting time for the next book gets painfully long - at least with OotS I get a small fix every now and then :smallbiggrin:)

Also I think it is just funny to read some posts and get some laughs out of it, because those speculations are just plain wrong!

[Cirin]

And this is the exact reason, I believe, why the mods don't like two threads on the same topic. Because they are not "completely separate" - zodar has been proposed in both, which makes them the exact same damn thread. I am not going to explain myself in two different places, I am just going to link you to the correct thread, because to do otherwise is to break forum rules. I am also not going to defend my comment on the zodar here, for the exact same reason.

By the way, since the zodar is a d&d creature, why were you posting it in a thread about non-d&d creatures?

And I'm sorry, but you shouting at me doesn't change the fact that I politely linked you to the right place for the extended explanation, as I am required to do.

GW
As for why I was posting it, it was just a casual, passing mention of my pet theory. I was idly browsing since I had bothered to look at the forums since the recent comics were particularly cool, looked in that thread for a bit, saw some ideas, and mentioned the theory that I support and that I believe is strongest. Maybe I was a tad off topic, mea culpa. Okay?

As for shouting, I'm sorry if my temper is getting frayed here, but it seems like just wanting to mention a theory about one of the biggest ongoing mysteries of the entire strip shouldn't have to require prerequisite courses and having people jump in with jargon and unfamiliar acronyms talking about how wrong you are.

Spoomeister is correct, it's very off-putting to be handed a pile of "required reading" at just casually wanting to discuss something. I've got a full-time job, full-time grad school, and a family, and was taking the luxury of a little time to do some recreational web surfing with time off for the Thanksgiving holiday, it's not like I have time to study OotS like it was another course.

It's worse when the "required reading" claims to discount your position, but doesn't really do so.

I still am rather adamant that the circus scene does not disprove the Zodar. A hulking 500-pound figure composed of pure muscle, clad in jet-black crystalline spiked full-plate with glowing eyes is the sort of thing goblins might well think is awesome, but humans think is grotesque. Are you thinking the circus scene means that the MitD has some kind of inherent ability in it's character sheet to nauseate/fear humans, but goblins are immune to it?

However, I've come to the conclusion that there is no discussion really wanted about that subject, since every monster will be "disproven". The nature of the MitD as an unusual example of whatever-it-is means that nothing will fit quite right and you could come up with a counterpoint to whatever it is.

As I said, people argued at length that Belkar isn't Chaotic Evil, that Miko shouldn't have fallen, that there was no way Malack was a vampire, that there was no way that Julio Scoundrel would save them from Tarquin. . .so even if the right answer has been given by somebody, I'm sure somebody has come up with a reasonable-sounding, well-sourced, but ultimately wrong reason for why that's impossible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoomeister is correct, it's very off-putting to be handed a pile of "required reading" at just casually wanting to discuss something. I've got a full-time job, full-time grad school, and a family, and was taking the luxury of a little time to do some recreational web surfing with time off for the Thanksgiving holiday, it's not like I have time to study OotS like it was another course.

You are not the only one that has jobs, and families - that is indeed why my answers tend to refer to the compilation of MitD knowledge, rather than long dissertations retreading the same exact ground that is already in the post I linked you to. And posting doesn't require you to read, but don't lash out at me because you were offended by being directed to the right place to discuss a D&D suggestion about MitD. We are only having this conversation because you decided to bad-mouth me on this thread, and I believe I have the right to defend myself from accusation. I originally posted in this thread not because of MitD, but because I think that Durkon's vampirism is the greatest secret of the strip. You were the one that decided to drag me and my actions into this.


I still am rather adamant that the circus scene does not disprove the Zodar. A hulking 500-pound figure composed of pure muscle, clad in jet-black crystalline spiked full-plate with glowing eyes is the sort of thing goblins might well think is awesome, but humans think is grotesque. Are you thinking the circus scene means that the MitD has some kind of inherent ability in it's character sheet to nauseate/fear humans, but goblins are immune to it?

And I am still adamant that this is the wrong thread to discuss zodar.


However, I've come to the conclusion that there is no discussion really wanted about that subject, since every monster will be "disproven". The nature of the MitD as an unusual example of whatever-it-is means that nothing will fit quite right and you could come up with a counterpoint to whatever it is.

No monster has even been disproven, and the fact you continue to accuse me, and everyone else in the MitD thread, of doing so is more than a little offensive.

Grey Wolf

[Coat]

I can think, off the top of my head, at least two dozen suggestions that I "offhandedly" (in fact, I aim for "drily") pointed out where they failed to match one of the major

My emphasis

It helps if you read everything Grey Wolf writes as spoken in dry scholarly tones.

In fact, I personally read him with the sand-blasted husk of a voice emanating via unnatural magics from the desiccated shambling remains of the Arch Librarian of Alexandria, forced once more into a unholy mockery of life by his unquenchable desire to see all Knowledge Categorised Properly.

But that might just be me*.

* He's still awesome, though.

[The Giant]

Has this thread really gone off-topic into discussing behavior on other threads?

OK, here's the deal. Cirin, we ask that people keep discussions that are likely to be going on for a long time in one unified thread in order to keep them from consuming large amounts of board real estate. Those threads have volunteer maintainers who do a lot of work keeping things organized, and Grey Wolf is obviously one of those. However, that said, Grey Wolf has no actual authority here. He cannot control the discussion, he cannot tell you what you can or cannot talk about on any thread. If you want to talk about whether or not the MITD is a zodar on "his" thread, go right ahead. He has no ability to stop you. Take his words as nothing more than one poster's opinion. Talk around him if you want. His only job is to maintain the first post list of previous guesses, and if you're not interested in that, ignore him.

Grey Wolf, while I understand that it may be frustrating that not everyone who wants to talk about the MITD has read your entire first post thesis…they're not required to. Anyone can go onto your thread and post any thought they have about the MITD at all, even if it's been said a billion times. You aren't required to engage them. If you do, do so politely. Remember that while you may see your thread as a unified project using logic to deduce a puzzle, we see your thread as a forum clean-up tool. People don't necessarily WANT to use your thread specifically to talk about the MITD, we make them. If the way it is being managed is driving people to come and talk about it in other threads, it's not doing its job and needs to be reevaluated. So please try to be understanding of the fact that not everyone posting on your thread is going to have the same goals, methods, or conclusions as you, and they aren't required to.

Thread locked.