[3.5] Discusion: Druid's must-haves.

[Yael]

I need a real deal brainstorm about the Druid class' must have feats, skills, spells, tricks, companions, races, etc.

I want NO handbooks, I need it from more updated experiences from you, playgrounders.

Let's say that my friend wants to build an Antropomorphic Bat druid. We start at level 3rd, any help towards 1st-5th level? just to plan his build.

[TuggyNE]

I want NO handbooks, I need it from more updated experiences from you, playgrounders.

I don't understand what you mean. Handbooks are specifically written from experience, research, and careful preparation, and generally are very helpful for getting most of a build together. Any poster here will likely have to tediously repeat many of the fairly-well-understood needs, and will probably forget a lot of them and also forget about some of the subtler things.

That's a little like saying, "Teach me economics, but don't use a textbook."

[Incanur]

Druids are pretty hard to mess up, especially with +6 Wis. Prepare good spells and cast them. Tell your animal companion to kill things. Etc. :smallsmile:

[Kennisiou]

For early levels, shillelagh and entangle are awesome spells and a wolf makes a good animal companion. Magic Fang is another useful early game spell to make your wolf have some more bite (ba-dum-tish). A solid masterwork quarterstaff and some good armor are your best early gear investments since they don't cost too much and work nicely with your early game strategies of hanging back and casting battlefield control and maybe a buff or two before you weigh in and bash **** to death. Flaming sphere is a good spell to have prepared so that you have ways to deal with distant foes, although you could always nab a composite bow or a sling as well (possibly a better idea than shillelagh quarterstaffing due to size and strength making melee a bit worse as an anth bat).

In general, at early levels understand that you're a controller first, a buffer second, and a melee combatant and blaster third. Ranged weapon attacking is barely on your radar and should really only be done if you're just super bad at melee (which your bat may be) and need some way to be effective when you're playing conservatively with spells/have run out. Your animal companion should usually be a melee combatant, because animal companions make generally poor skillmonkeys (really only being good at scouting skill-wise). Wolves, bears, dinosaurs and big cats can all make good companions depending on what you have access to.

Depending on how the DM interprets the familiarity clause on wildshape, it may be a good idea for you to find some way for your character backstory-wise to have familiarity with dinosaurs (especially fleshrakers) and bears. This doesn't help his early levels like you asked for, but it can put a bit of a kibosh on his later progression if the DM's interpretation is particularly strict.

[eggynack]

The trick to druids is spells, and also other spells, and perhaps even more spells. With a massive amount of wisdom, you're going to have a lot of spells, and with books as far out as savage species, you're likely to have a wide reference pool. With that in mind, I'm going to start with not-spell stuff, because it takes less time. You may wish to consider adding the dragonborn template (RoTD, 8) onto the character, and I'd advise going with mind as the ability of choice, because it stacks well with druidness. It's a pretty low cost addition to an antro bat. Additionally, you'll probably want to pick up the fourth and fifth fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40), because they are once again incredibly cheap. The fifth level option doesn't even lose anything.

Anyway, as for spells, you say that you're opposed to handbook stuff, and that doesn't even really make sense. I could always just PM over a link to the majig I've been working on, cause the list is pretty much complete up to the level you're at. Not completely complete, but if I give spell advice, it usually comes from thereabouts nowadays. I'd rather not just do the thing where I list good druid spells until there are no more good druid spells, cause there are lots of them. So, y'know, just ask if you're interested.

[claypigeons]

Natural Spell. How has this not been mentioned yet?

If you're going the summoning route, Greenbound Summoning and Ashbound Summoning are win. I'm away from books, but if memory serves, Augment Summoning stacks with Greenbound. That's +8 str, +4 con and cha, a few (good) SLAs (entangle and i think wall of thorns?), double duration and a +3 luck bonus on attacks. On everything you summon.

[nyjastul69]

I don't understand what you mean. Handbooks are specifically written from experience, research, and careful preparation, and generally are very helpful for getting most of a build together. Any poster here will likely have to tediously repeat many of the fairly-well-understood needs, and will probably forget a lot of them and also forget about some of the subtler things.

That's a little like saying, "Teach me economics, but don't use a textbook."

Pretty much this. To directly address your query, Natural Spell is generally considered to be a positive addition to a Druids repertoire.

[geekintheground]

The trick to druids is spells, and also other spells, and perhaps even more spells. With a massive amount of wisdom, you're going to have a lot of spells, and with books as far out as savage species, you're likely to have a wide reference pool. With that in mind, I'm going to start with not-spell stuff, because it takes less time. You may wish to consider adding the dragonborn template (RoTD, 8) onto the character, and I'd advise going with mind as the ability of choice, because it stacks well with druidness. It's a pretty low cost addition to an antro bat. Additionally, you'll probably want to pick up the fourth and fifth fangshields druid substitution levels (CV, 40), because they are once again incredibly cheap. The fifth level option doesn't even lose anything.

Anyway, as for spells, you say that you're opposed to handbook stuff, and that doesn't even really make sense. I could always just PM over a link to the majig I've been working on, cause the list is pretty much complete up to the level you're at. Not completely complete, but if I give spell advice, it usually comes from thereabouts nowadays. I'd rather not just do the thing where I list good druid spells until there are no more good druid spells, cause there are lots of them. So, y'know, just ask if you're interested.

could i get in on that? you seem to be really knowledgable and would love to hear what you have to say about one of my favorite classes :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

could i get in on that? you seem to be really knowledgable and would love to hear what you have to say about one of my favorite classes :smallsmile:
Will do. It's currently some arbitrary percentage complete, because druids are frigging infinite, no matter how much stuff you type, so I've just been randomly handing the incomplete version to folks who ask, and poking away at it for eternity. Such is my lot in life.

[Coidzor]

Depends on what you want to play, really.

If you're planning on getting rid of wildshape, then natural spell isn't going to be on your radar. Otherwise, you're going to take that instead of any other feat at 6th level, hence the joke that at 6th level Druids don't get a feat, they get Natural Spell.

Similarly, if you're planning on summoning then you're going to take things like Augment Summoning, Ashbound, Greenbound Summoning or Rashemi Elemental Summoning, but if you don't plan on focusing on summoning, then you're not gonna invest your feats there.

[Vortenger]

Augment Summoning and its prerequisite are common and useful choices, given your easy-bake summoning nature. Natural spell IS your 6th level feat for any druid with Wild Shape, do not question it. No, not even then. Dragon Wild Shape is pretty highly regarded for utility if not for actual combat. Also, spells. (This is where handbooks are really useful, there's a lot out there) Oh, andyou have a (semi)-replaceable pet that fights as well as many fighters.

You're a druid, one of the most powerful classes in the game. Even if you schlep it up for a few levels learning to play the class, compared t most players you'll look amazing.

[Eldariel]

What sources are we going with? Honestly, that determines a lot. I wrote a quickstart for Core Druid at some point but obviously Core Druid has extremely restricted options on rational build paths (you can get almost all the good feats if you play Core-only), while all-sources-allowed can focus on any aspect of the Druid pretty well.

[(Un)Inspired]

That's a little like saying, "Teach me economics, but don't use a textbook."

Step 1: cast wall of salt
Step 2: sell salt using the salt trade item rules
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: Profit

[Yael]

I understand what are handbooks for. But I'm looking for freshier experience, I mean with your personal Druid plays, what do you take through level 1st to 5th, I know that Natural Spell it's more like a class feature, but he knows. He's not really optimizing itself, just taking what a good druid should have.

What's allowed:

· 2 Flaws.
· Any race through 3.0-3.5 (for what he's picking from Strongheart Halfling to Antropomorphic Bat).
· He's starting level 3rd.

What he has so far:
[Level 1st] Spell Focus (Conjuration)
[Flaw] Ashbound.
[Flaw] Augmented Summoning.
[Level 3rd] Greenbound Summoning.

So he's taking upon the ''I summon strong things''. Free SNA's way too OP and he can take advantage of it. He wants to keep up with the Natural Shape, though. He'll take the feat when it's the time.

His spell list is somewhat limited, his options were:
Level 0: Detect Magic | Know Direction | Mending | Read Magic.
Level 1st: Charm Animal | Enrage Animal | Entangle | Speak with Animals.
Level 2nd: Bull's Strenght | Flamming Sphere | Splinterbolt.

So, thank you for the further advice :D

[MirddinEmris]

I understand what are handbooks for. But I'm looking for freshier experience, I mean with your personal Druid plays, what do you take through level 1st to 5th, I know that Natural Spell it's more like a class feature, but he knows. He's not really optimizing itself, just taking what a good druid should have.

What's allowed:

· 2 Flaws.
· Any race through 3.0-3.5 (for what he's picking from Strongheart Halfling to Antropomorphic Bat).
· He's starting level 3rd.

What he has so far:
[Level 1st] Spell Focus (Conjuration)
[Flaw] Ashbound.
[Flaw] Augmented Summoning.
[Level 3rd] Greenbound Summoning.

So he's taking upon the ''I summon strong things''. Free SNA's way too OP and he can take advantage of it. He wants to keep up with the Natural Shape, though. He'll take the feat when it's the time.

His spell list is somewhat limited, his options were:
Level 0: Detect Magic | Know Direction | Mending | Read Magic.
Level 1st: Charm Animal | Enrage Animal | Entangle | Speak with Animals.
Level 2nd: Bull's Strenght | Flamming Sphere | Splinterbolt.

So, thank you for the further advice :D

Well, i you want fresh experience - DO NOT go this route. Sure thing that it's very optimized and powerful, but this class is already very heavy on bookkeeping (knowledge of entire spell list and wildshape forms) and if you add summoning to this list, especially summoning augmented by many bonuses and templates, it'll become just insane.

[Eldariel]

The spells could be kinda rethought I think. It's a bit early to use a first level slot for Charm Animal & Speak with Animals (and he has Wild Empathy in any case); I'd rather have at least a second Entangle prepared. I'd probably also look to have Shillelagh prepared if high Strength; otherwise Produce Flame.

Faerie Fire and possibly Magic Fang/Silvered Claws [BoED] should be scrolled for purposes of dealing with invisible foes (Faerie Fire) and DR (Magic Fang/Silvered Claws for DR/Magic and DR/Silver respectively).


Level 2 spells should definitely include Blinding Spittle [Spell Compendium] if his Dex is at all decent; you do have -4 to the roll but it's usually still worth it. That spell is amazing; blind someone with a ranged touch attack, no save.

Creeping Cold and Kelpstrand (both Spell Compendium) are also pretty good and should probably be there somewhere. Though Splinterbolt is also okay. I don't think Flaming Sphere is necessarily worth it however.

[Ketiara]

Will do. It's currently some arbitrary percentage complete, because druids are frigging infinite, no matter how much stuff you type, so I've just been randomly handing the incomplete version to folks who ask, and poking away at it for eternity. Such is my lot in life.

@eggynack: can i get in on it aswell?

[ddude987]

the only required feat I can think of is natural spell.
For animal companions, fleshraker dinosaur is by far the best one. Its in MMIII.
Skills, grab concentration and spellcraft. All casters want those. In addition, I personally like spot and listen for scouting, you can also grab knowledge nature or diplomacy for some fun stuff in that area.
For spells, look through the spell compendium and phb. They have some really good spells, grab the ones that are good for crowd control. There are a few area of effect spells for druid that just make the enemies completely useless, I think one summons jaws of force and auto pins the enemy? Another is an aoe blind.

[eggynack]

His spell list is somewhat limited, his options were:
Level 0: Detect Magic | Know Direction | Mending | Read Magic.
Level 1st: Charm Animal | Enrage Animal | Entangle | Speak with Animals.
Level 2nd: Bull's Strenght | Flamming Sphere | Splinterbolt.

You should ditch know direction, mending (unless you're building a druid of highest etiquette. In that case, constant suit repairs are critical), read magic, charm animal, enrage animal, speak with animals, bull's strength, and flaming sphere. In replacement for the three zeroth's, I'd suggest a create water, and then either two cure minor wounds, or one cure minor and another detect magic. As replacement firsts, you should get something like impeding stones (City, 66), wall of smoke (SpC, 235), and maybe another entangle. First level BFC's are sweet. For the second level spells, kelpstrand and blinding spittle are good, as has been mentioned, but you also may want to consider luminous armor (BoED, 102), and mass snake's swiftness (SpC, 193). The latter in particular can act as a good replacement for the mediocre buffs on that list.


@eggynack: can i get in on it aswell?
Will do.

[Talya]

Unless you're adventuring in/on/directly beside a body of water, memorize Blinding Spittle at least once every day.

Conversely, memorize Kelpstrand every day...especially if you're near a body of water, but even if you're in the desert. Always have it.

[hymer]

You should ditch [...] speak with animals.

I hesitate to contradict egggy, but I'd consider keeping SwA, depending on the DM. How does s/he handle the animal companion and summons? SwA can let you give detailed instructions to your beast allies, sometimes extremely useful. How often does he reward talking to the unexpected? If s/he's the sort who thinks this into scenarios, it can be very useful and/or satisfactory.
I recall having spoken to some horses when we were suddenly attacked. My AC was even more useful in that fight than usual.

[Vortenger]

Playing a druid right now in one of my groups. Just hit 6 last session.

Seconding the choices set forth by Eggynack and Eldariel. I'd like to reiterate on how awesome Snake' Swiftness, Mass is. I have never, ever regretting memorizing that spell. If you have a cranked up wisdom, then Sandblast and Salt Ray (SpC for both) can be fairly effective as well. Both cause a fort or be stunned for a round and at low levels stunned = dead if your rogue or fighter is already threatening. Gust of Wind is pretty good for all around utility and is useful in combat more than you might suspect. The spells the other Playgrounders suggested are more useful overall, but blasting is fun sometimes.

For animal companions, if fleshraker is off the table then I'd suggest looking at the battle-cat series for pounce. A leopard with the Warbeast template (MM2) can kick out more raw physical damage than the dinosaur and has a climb speed, which is nice. (I'm beginning to loathe those 'how do we get your riding dog up there?' moments).

[eggynack]

I hesitate to contradict egggy, but I'd consider keeping SwA, depending on the DM. How does s/he handle the animal companion and summons? SwA can let you give detailed instructions to your beast allies, sometimes extremely useful. How often does he reward talking to the unexpected? If s/he's the sort who thinks this into scenarios, it can be very useful and/or satisfactory.
I recall having spoken to some horses when we were suddenly attacked. My AC was even more useful in that fight than usual.
It just seems rather situational, especially at level three when the gains from talking to animals is at its lowest, and the need for active firsts is at its greatest. The duration is minutes/level, so what's the battle plan here? Do you use this as your first action in combat, and then start summoning dire badgers (hippogriffs, the best option at that level, are not animals)? What can you get a riding dog to do, that it wouldn't do already, that you could fit into a three minute buff, that'd be worth the slot? I can certainly imagine situations where speak with animals could provide decent utility, but such a situation arising is not something I would count on, even when you can turn the spell into wolves. Now speak with plants, which can trigger wall of thorns off of greenbound summoning, might be worth the slot when you get it. I'd hold off on speak with animals until a point in the game where situational utility is the best you're getting out of firsts, and even then I'd probably prepare something else (spider hand, omen of peril, instant of power, maybe faerie fire, or perhaps darrson's cooling breeze, if you're feeling classy).

[hymer]

The duration is minutes/level, so what's the battle plan here? Do you use this as your first action in combat, and then start summoning dire badgers (hippogriffs, the best option at that level, are not animals)?

Obviously, if you have to spend an action during the fight, then it's not worth it, no. If you have strong perception skills, though, you will commonly have a moment before fights start. 3 minutes is after all 30 rounds, quite enough to get it off and finish the fight in many cases.


What can you get a riding dog to do, that it wouldn't do already, that you could fit into a three minute buff, that'd be worth the slot?

When I play a druid, my animals are smart enough to understand flanking, and that's the most advanced combat concept for them (and not all my animals would understand it - rhinos in particular). Telling them to move initiative around, ready actions, and move in ways to avoid the people with reach weapons are all things I'm much more comfortable with when I have SwA up. I once asked a baboon to grapple a goblin too, which was well worth the slot and the standard action, but that's a different story. :smallbiggrin:


I'd hold off on speak with animals until a point in the game where situational utility is the best you're getting out of firsts, and even then I'd probably prepare something else (spider hand, omen of peril, instant of power, maybe faerie fire, or perhaps darrson's cooling breeze, if you're feeling classy).

I'd much prefer to have my SwA in a wand too (and another wand to a UMDing friend if the DM doesn't like the Pearl of Speech trick, but does allow SwA to work on a shapeshifted druid). But then, that goes for a lot of first level spells, and isn't usually a good option at level 3. Also, some spells are very good but fit poorly into the story, or are not that great but seems like they fit a lot. I've never had a combat trained riding dog for an AC, e.g. But then, I guess playing an anthropomorphic bat is weird enough that most things wouldn't seem out of place.
That said, if the OP is looking for sheer versatility and power, let's by all means call in the fleshraker and cast venomblood at first chance. The question is, I guess, what is meant by "must-haves".

[eggynack]

Obviously, if you have to spend an action during the fight, then it's not worth it, no. If you have strong perception skills, though, you will commonly have a moment before fights start. 3 minutes is after all 30 rounds, quite enough to get it off and finish the fight in many cases.
I suppose so, but getting buff time when you need it just ups the situationality of the spell. It's just not the kind of thing I like to count on.


When I play a druid, my animals are smart enough to understand flanking, and that's the most advanced combat concept for them (and not all my animals would understand it - rhinos in particular). Telling them to move initiative around, ready actions, and move in ways to avoid the people with reach weapons are all things I'm much more comfortable with when I have SwA up. I once asked a baboon to grapple a goblin too, which was well worth the slot and the standard action, but that's a different story. :smallbiggrin:
It's certainly a bit better than not having it up, in terms of various minor tactical advantages, but I would likely take a good casting of impeding stones over the riding dog moving his initiative any day. Also, if that baboon wasn't your friend before you cast speak with animals, he wouldn't be one afterwards either. There are two major costs to be considered, in this and most cases. The first is the action cost, and on a minutes/level spell, there is a decently sized one, largely commensurate with your ability to spot enemies before the fight starts. The second is the spell cost, and at third level, the spell cost on speak with animals is prohibitively high.




I'd much prefer to have my SwA in a wand too (and another wand to a UMDing friend if the DM doesn't like the Pearl of Speech trick, but does allow SwA to work on a shapeshifted druid). But then, that goes for a lot of first level spells, and isn't usually a good option at level 3. Also, some spells are very good but fit poorly into the story, or are not that great but seems like they fit a lot. I've never had a combat trained riding dog for an AC, e.g. But then, I guess playing an anthropomorphic bat is weird enough that most things wouldn't seem out of place.
The spell is probably a bad choice at that level too. Really, I'd just avoid it in general until the druid isn't relying on firsts for dealing with encounters on an active level, and even then, I'd probably go with something else. Whether you're actively relying on firsts because they're your second highest level of spell, or because you lack the money to wand them, it comes out the same way. As for the riding dog, it seems pretty standard to me, and for the pearl of speech thing, it's not particularly relevant at this level either. I could say the same for a lot of the advice being given, actually.


That said, if the OP is looking for sheer versatility and power, let's by all means call in the fleshraker and cast venomblood at first chance. The question is, I guess, what is meant by "must-haves".
Well, with or without obscure and high power options (though venomfire is powerful enough that it's no longer obscure), entangle is still amazing. It's a fact of the druid condition that you don't have to look far for sheer versatility and power. Speak with animals makes for a halfway decent choice, all things considered, but it's just nowhere near the best choice. Even in core, and even looking for low level utility slots at high level, I'd probably rather be casting something like faerie fire, or maybe longstrider. Spells with a super low action cost, or an ability which isn't really replicated with other slots, is where it's at. SWA maybe fits in the latter category, but it's probably more situational than revealing invisible enemies.

[Yael]

As a note, my friend took the Elemental Companion AFC, chosing an Earth Elemental.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get Natural Bond at 3rd level, and pick up a 'level -3' companion at 4th and still apply your full Druid level when determining its benefits. Good companion choices would be a war-trained Riding Dog starting out, and upgrade to a Fleshraker dinosaur or a Dire Eagle. Use Handle Animal to add the Warbeast template to anything you use.

You'll want several Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend, for spells like Longstrider, Creeping Cold, Barkskin, Kelpstrand, Sleet Storm, Greater Magic Fang, etc. If you want to ruin the game, get the whole party to each pitch in 2k gp for a 1st level Pearl of Power and to go in thirds on Lesser Rods of Extend. Each day cast Snowsight from Frostburn on the whole party using the above items, so you only spend one 1st level spell on your own. Every spellcaster in the party should cast (Extended) Obscuring Snow from the same book, which will give your party a completely unfair advantage in every encounter.

Definitely get Natural Spell at 6th level, and Greenbound Summoning is way too good to not get at 1st. If flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) are available (more here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30)) then also get Ashbound. The Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) will help make up for the bat's horrible land speed, and you can spend a flaw feat on Improved Toughness to negate its drawback.

Greenbound summons should use Wall of Thorns as soon as they appear, and remember there's no minimum caster level on spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) so even a SNA1 for a Greenbound Dire Rat can use that. Have them cast it right on top of as many opponents as possible, there's no saving throw and it's one of the more difficult spells to escape from. Plus it's one of the most difficult barriers to destroy and it's guaranteed to outlast the fight.

Use Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) to coat a bunch of Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (turning) spell foci. That will make it last 365 times longer than normal, or a little over 60 hours per caster level, and they can be reused indefinitely. You can even cast it with a Lesser Rod of Extend to make it last twice as long. Each of those bones should be threaded onto a loop of leather, and each one colored or numbered so your character can keep track of them. Hanging from the loop they should be organized from longest remaining duration to least remaining duration, if you ever need to use one you'll use it from the least duration side then move it to a twist on the loop to keep it separate. Cast Bone Talisman once each day on one you've used or on the one with the least duration remaining, and then move that one around the loop to the longest duration end of the row. At 3rd level each one will last just over 15 days, so put two doses of the unguent on 16 of them for 300 gp.

Future items should include a Ring of the Beast, a standard Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed (costs 9,000 gp per DMG pricing), and a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp. Always activate the Bead of Karma on the Strand of Prayer Beads before casting your long duration buffs or Bone Talisman.

Much later (level 13+) get a standard Rod of Extend and a 6th level Pearl of Power. This allows you to keep Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity x5 continuously active on yourself for only two 6th level spell slots per day.

[Incanur]

As a note, my friend took the Elemental Companion AFC, chosing an Earth Elemental.

Great choice. I love Elemental Campanion (as long as it's houseruled so you can replace them, of course). Earth elementals are even more impressive in combat than riding dogs at level 1, have ridiculous scouting ability, and are intelligent enough to talk to. Animal companions can dish out more damage at higher levels, but provide less utility.