Tree Growth?

[kalos72]

So one of group said something that sorta stumped previously documentation wise...

"If elves are so "of the woods", why cant they magical expand the woods to keep the humans out?"

I figure there has to be some "tree growth" spell out there...to quickly expand a forest. Or even make a tree farm of Soarwood maybe or something?

[Forrestfire]

There's a magic item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tree) that makes a full-grown oak.

[kalos72]

That works...its cheap too. But I doubt the creation time for a magic item is worth it...

Spell would be the best way...any suggestions?

[Kelb_Panthera]

400gp may be cheap by PC standards but it is -not- cheap at all.

For comparison here's a couple things you could get with 400gp: 10 tons of wheat 133 head of pork 10,000 chickens 40 head of cattle 8 lbs of gold (seems obvious but seriously pounds of gold) 100 yards of linen (takes less than 2 for a moderately high quality shirt or pair of trousers) 40 yards of silk (about 10 rich people outfits sans jewelry) 2 outfits fit for a king everything necessary to start a taxi service (2 light horses, a carriage, horse feed, saddlebags, and more than a week's pay for the driver)

[Coidzor]

So one of group said something that sorta stumped previously documentation wise...

"If elves are so "of the woods", why cant they magical expand the woods to keep the humans out?"

Mostly because if they encroach on human lands like that they'd get the **** kicked out of them, generally.

[kalos72]

Not in the Forgotten Realms really...they are pretty much beaten down.

I guess simple plant growth but that sounds more like bushes and stuff...not forest / trees.

[Ravens_cry]

Not in the Forgotten Realms really...they are pretty much beaten down.

I guess simple plant growth but that sounds more like bushes and stuff...not forest / trees.
The spell explicitly includes trees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/plantGrowth.htm).

This effect causes normal vegetation (grasses, briars, bushes, creepers, thistles, trees, vines) within long range (400 feet + 40 feet per caster level) to become thick and overgrown.
Bolded for emphases. Of course, one reason Hippy Elves might not want to do this much is because it's bad for the forest. Animals have a hard time walking through it, forcing them to go around to less thick areas that leave them exposed, and the extra growth chokes smaller plants.
In short, it's a weapon of last resort, not something you do to a healthy forest on a regular basis.

[rexx1888]

unless instead of casting it in the forest, they went out into the grasslands or plains or what have you, planted a metric ****load of saplings and then cast plant growth. For a hippy dippy village of say 40 elves and one guy that can cast it, they could plant a big ass forest in a night, run off into the village and repeat for many nights. Bonus points in that the forest they create will be a bitch to get rid off, specially if they get good at it an start mixing in some nasty other plants to the mix :)

[Ravens_cry]

unless instead of casting it in the forest, they went out into the grasslands or plains or what have you, planted a metric ****load of saplings and then cast plant growth. For a hippy dippy village of say 40 elves and one guy that can cast it, they could plant a big ass forest in a night, run off into the village and repeat for many nights. Bonus points in that the forest they create will be a bitch to get rid off, specially if they get good at it an start mixing in some nasty other plants to the mix :)
Yes, but that grassland is also an environment. Encroaching on it is also potentially harmful, especially since the climate probably doesn't support it, meaning the trees will die off, pretty much overnight as far as the lifetime of an elf is concerned.

[Yora]

Hippy elves just don't work in a realistic setting.

[Fouredged Sword]

Becuase then they get in a fight with the hippy grassland elves who try to maintain the grasslands, and while they are fighting the local dwarf mine undercuts the roots, the kobolds trap everything in sight, and orcs invade.

[weckar]

Aaaah the stereotypes are killing me so! :smallsigh:

[lytokk]

Woo!! an actual chance to use my forestry degree!!

The reason would be that is not natural. Some land types are just not suited to sustaining a population of trees. There has to be an agreeable soil type, and enough water to sustain a tree population. Usually, it's the availability of water that keeps trees from growing in a location. If you've ever driven through the country, you can always tell where there is going to be a creekbed because of the line of trees. They do need a lot of water to grow and without it, the growth just cannot be sustained. Sure, you'll see the odd tree out in the middle of a field, but that's because that one tree is particularly drout tolerant (can survive on much less water, usually an oak), and its using up all of the available water for that spot. Could all this be solved via magic, of course, but elves think long term and the investment of resources this would require far exceeds the benefit for them.

[kalos72]

The area in question, the Neverwinter Woods, were at one point much larger then they are today. So I dont think its a "suitable land" problem honestly...

More so just the encroachment of man...

I guess I need to contract out for feather token(tree) to be made...alot of them.

[rexx1888]

The area in question, the Neverwinter Woods, were at one point much larger then they are today. So I dont think its a "suitable land" problem honestly...

More so just the encroachment of man...

I guess I need to contract out for feather token(tree) to be made...alot of them.

seriously in that instance the only 'problem' with plant growth is that its an aggressive reclaiming of land.. except to me that sounds like a bonus since its keeps the humans out...

[Ravens_cry]

The area in question, the Neverwinter Woods, were at one point much larger then they are today. So I dont think its a "suitable land" problem honestly...

It can be. Deforestation itself affects climate patterns.

[hymer]

And the soil too. In mountains in particular, a lack of plants is likely to cause accelerated erosion.

[Ruethgar]

If you are willing to go third party, Mongoose Publishing Quintessential Cleric has some fun things. Obedient Growth lets you make living buildings, takes a lot more than it should, but Shape Spell Plant Growth can repair the damage. The rules for temples there are also nice, Stone and Plant domains if I recall, make a living tree fortress with regenerating stone reinforcements. A spell trap of Plant Growth:Cultivation at a bottleneck near a water source could keep a forest thriving.

[TuggyNE]

It can be. Deforestation itself affects climate patterns.

Of course, so does reforestation, if done carefully, and it is at least theoretically possible to plant trees in an area to make it suitable to grow trees.

[kalos72]

I dont mind what book/version its from...I can research a similar spell however.

If you were to make a new spell, with the intent of reforesting an area, what would you do?

[Ravens_cry]

Of course, so does reforestation, if done carefully, and it is at least theoretically possible to plant trees in an area to make it suitable to grow trees.
Overnight Instant Forest sounds like the opposite of 'carefully'.

[TuggyNE]

Overnight Instant Forest sounds like the opposite of 'carefully'.

Well, yes. I didn't say that was a good idea, just that it was possible to do some sort of possibly-magically-aided reforestation without ruining the environment.

I think Rich had an article some time ago about low-level spells to subtly improve everyday farming etc, including at least one to encourage plants to grow faster over a longish period of time, but I can't seem to find it.

[Coidzor]

Well, yes. I didn't say that was a good idea, just that it was possible to do some sort of possibly-magically-aided reforestation without ruining the environment.

I think Rich had an article some time ago about low-level spells to subtly improve everyday farming etc, including at least one to encourage plants to grow faster over a longish period of time, but I can't seem to find it.

Keith Baker's NPC class The Gleaner (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html)? Most of interest are the spell that allows one to water plants and the spell that allows one to optimally plant seeds.

[TuggyNE]

Keith Baker's NPC class The Gleaner (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html)? Most of interest are the spell that allows one to water plants and the spell that allows one to optimally plant seeds.

Ah, yeah, that's what I was thinking of.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Plant Growth has a second option called Enrichment that would probably be better suited for careful reforestation.
There is also the Horn of the Wakened Forest (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040919a) if you need trees in a hurry.

[kalos72]

It is a rather simple solution I admit...guess i was thinking of something epic level. :P

Can you enlighten me on where that horn is from? I have restricted access during the day and the Wizards Coast stuff sometimes gets blocked...

[Yuki Akuma]

I honestly think "reforesting an area" shouldn't be the domain of a single spell. I'd say it'd require a bunch of different spells to work - a spell to create a new water table, a spell to sculpt the land, a spell to encourage plants to grow, etc.

Making a forest is totally something you could do with magic, but I don't think just casting a single (pre-epic) spell is really appropriate.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It is a rather simple solution I admit...guess i was thinking of something epic level. :P

Can you enlighten me on where that horn is from? I have restricted access during the day and the Wizards Coast stuff sometimes gets blocked...

It's from the Far Corners of the World series of articles, under Magic Items of the Woodlands.

[kalos72]

Now THATS more like it... :)

[Krobar]

Create Forest sounds like epic level magic to me. Otherwise, trying to do it with less, would be far too costly to make it worthwhile (in my game, YMMV).

[Malroth]

a wand of plant growth set to enrich would cause the plant life within 1 mile to experience 1,000 years worth of natural growth per day if all 50 charges were used to all cumulatively increase the growth rate of the plants by 1/3 per use.

[kalos72]

Can you help me with the math there pls? Not sure I follow you...

[Coidzor]

Can you help me with the math there pls? Not sure I follow you...

Me either...

1 day of growth takes 1 day

Cast plant growth, that makes it:
1*4/3 = 4/3 of a day's growth in one day.

50 charges of the wand, cumulative would basically make it exponentially increase, I think.

(4/3)^50 = 1765780.96326 according to google.

So that's 1,765,780.96326 days of growth per one day. For simplicity's sake, let's round that up to 1,765,781 days of growth per one day. Divide by 365 for years.

4837.75616438 years in one day.

I think.

So that'd end up being about 19351 seasons of growth.

4/3 + 4/3, et al. would just be 4/3 * 50 and end up being 66.6666666667 days of growth per day, I think. Or basically 2 months and a week per day.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm fairly sure you can't just stack multiple castings of the same spell like that, though.

[GreenSerpent]

I think castings of Raise Ice Forest would be useful here... (Frostburn)

[Coidzor]

I'm fairly sure you can't just stack multiple castings of the same spell like that, though.

That is my understanding as well.


I think castings of Raise Ice Forest would be useful here... (Frostburn)

Good old Frostburn. Druid's best friend, that book.