Nullifying the Mailman

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As we all know, the Mailman is a build which is designed to kill nearly any target by bypassing immunities. However, there is one way (other than immunity to hit point damage) to be immune to this:

Globe of Invulnerability.

No, really. Orb of Fire is a 4th level spell. It doesn't matter if SR:NO, because the wording of the spell is:


Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe.

It isn't that it has an arbitrary SR, it is that you cannot target anyone within the globe.

Now then, the problem with Globe of Invulnerability is that it has a duration of Rounds/level. Well, that's no big deal, because it is an emanation centered on you, and thus able to be Persisted, using one of several metamagic-reducing effects to cram it back down into a 6th level spell.

This also takes care of Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud and several other 'insta-gib' type spells. In fact, this is also the only known method to be immune to the Hail of Stones spell as well.

In short, this often overlooked abjuration can be hailed as the counter to many different types of cheese.

Now of course, this could normally be dispelled, unless you wish to go to Dewomerkeeper for (Su) shenanigans.

[Der_DWSage]

Unfortunately, there's a problem with this. It's a glorious spell (One I've used myself on occasion) but the big thing stopping it from being the Mailman-stopper is the fact that it does not move with you. So persist all you like. You now have a 24 hour dome that is unlikely to be relevant. (Blink, on the other hand...)

[nyjastul69]

As we all know, the Mailman is a build which is designed to kill nearly any target by bypassing immunities. However, there is one way (other than immunity to hit point damage) to be immune to this:

Globe of Invulnerability.

No, really. Orb of Fire is a 4th level spell. It doesn't matter if SR:NO, because the wording of the spell is:



It isn't that it has an arbitrary SR, it is that you cannot target anyone within the globe.

Now then, the problem with Globe of Invulnerability is that it has a duration of Rounds/level. Well, that's no big deal, because it is an emanation centered on you, and thus able to be Persisted, using one of several metamagic-reducing effects to cram it back down into a 6th level spell.

This also takes care of Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud and several other 'insta-gib' type spells. In fact, this is also the only known method to be immune to the Hail of Stones spell as well.

In short, this often overlooked abjuration can be hailed as the counter to many different types of cheese.

Now of course, this could normally be dispelled, unless you wish to go to Dewomerkeeper for (Su) shenanigans.

How does Globe of Invulnerability inhibit targeting?

[eggynack]

Eh, globe of invulnerability is for rubes. The real orb of fire stopper is fireward (SpC, 94), which stops all fire, magical or non-magical, in its area. It's not a particularly good spell, but it can do this.

[demigodus]

I prefer persisting friendly fire. Make them be hit by their own attack.

[Brookshw]

I prefer persisting friendly fire. Make them be hit by their own attack.

And still 4th level.

Edit, but really, if you want to put up defenses spell immunity is a fine thing as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You need the non-lesser version to stop 4th level Orb spells, though, and that's a 6th level spell. Also, you can make an argument that the Arcane Fusion'd Orb counts as a 5th level spell. (Not commenting on the validity of the argument; just mentioning that it's there).

And 1 application of Heighten Spell ruins it all.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I prefer persisting friendly fire. Make them be hit by their own attack.

It still wouldn't work on Hail of Stones or other Save or Lose shenanigans


You need the non-lesser version to stop 4th level Orb spells, though, and that's a 6th level spell. Also, you can make an argument that the Arcane Fusion'd Orb counts as a 5th level spell. (Not commenting on the validity of the argument; just mentioning that it's there).

And 1 application of Heighten Spell ruins it all.

Heighten Spell completely ruins the Mailman because it can no longer be put in a Spell Matrix.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Heighten Spell completely ruins the Mailman because it can no longer be put in a Spell Matrix.
Huh? The Mailman is about metamagicing Orbs to Baator and back, and using Arcane Fusion and Arcane Spellsurge to throw 'em out fast.

[Carth]

Mystic Shield
Abjuration
Level:Sorcerer/wizard 8
Components:V, S, M
Casting Time:1 round
Range:Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration:1 round./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:Yes (harmless)
With the casting of your spell, you feel a presence about you, warding off the spells of other casters.
This spell creates an invisible aura around the recipient that
moves with that individual. It prevents all spells and spell-like
abilities of 6th level or lower from affecting the recipient. The
protected individual can cast spells normally, even on himself.
Magic items and spells that summon items to the caster such as
Leomund’s secret chest and Drawmij’s instant summons likewise
function normally.
A mystic shieldalso negates the enhancement bonuses and
special properties of magic weapons used against the target.
Material Component:A stone, a drop of blood, a tear from
the caster’s eye, and a clear gem stone worth at least 400 gp.

Probably one of the best defensive spells in the game, if you're able to find a way to get it up in time or keep it up all day.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You can also Greater Dispel the Globe. That's how the Mailman deals with persistent delay death shenanigans and the like, according to the Handbook anyway.

Also, Der_DWSage pointed out the biggest problem with the Globe, in that it doesn't move with you. I definitely considered this trick the last time I played a persistomancer... and that was the dealbreaker.

[Incanur]

Doesn't ray deflection also work?

[Psyren]

Heighten Spell completely ruins the Mailman because it can no longer be put in a Spell Matrix.

Mailman is "completely ruined" without Spell Matrix? :smallconfused: Ridiculous.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mailman is "completely ruined" without Spell Matrix? :smallconfused: Ridiculous.

Well, it at least reduces his power on a logarithmic scale. Heck, it was the combination of Spell Fusion and Spell Matrix and some rather extreme metamagic cheese to get the one to fit in the other and vice versa that caused the several thousand damage per turn output.

Besides, Spell Fusion doesn't really work when you start tossing Heighten Spell into the mix, because it can only function with 4th level spells.

Also, it was through the metamagic tricks to bring Arcane Fusion down to a 4th level spell that you got the incursion trick to work. Heightening will nullify your recursive fusions.

The other option, of course, is to Cube it up. Spell Clocks, perhaps.

Ray Deflection doesn't work because an Orb is not a Ray. Fire Immunity doesn't work because of Searing Spell to bypass immunities.

Spell Immunity doesn't work because it functions as ni Spell Resistance, which Orb of Fire ignores.

Hmmm... there IS a solution here, I can smell it. All I need to do is figure out how to get the Globe to move with the caster, and it's done.

It wouldn't be the first time I've picked up a bit of detritus and polished it off a bit...

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Ray Deflection has a deceiving name, as it blocks all ranged touch attacks, not just rays. It doesn't stop a Twinmaxed Empowered Fiery Searing Surge of Fortune'd Combust from ruining your day though.

[Psyren]

Well, it at least reduces his power on a logarithmic scale. Heck, it was the combination of Spell Fusion and Spell Matrix and some rather extreme metamagic cheese to get the one to fit in the other and vice versa that caused the several thousand damage per turn output.

Why do you even need one thousand, much less "several?" Even a Great Wyrm Gold is only packing around 700hp.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why do you even need one thousand, much less "several?" Even a Great Wyrm Gold is only packing around 700hp.

Exactly.

Once you can drop the highest XP published monster that can still give you XP in one hit when you deal the minimum possible amount of damage, anything more is totally superfluous.

---
As for nullifying the mailman, it can be done in dozens of ways. The easiest is to just cast Hide Life, you now are immune to death via HP damage.

[Cog]

Also, Der_DWSage pointed out the biggest problem with the Globe, in that it doesn't move with you. I definitely considered this trick the last time I played a persistomancer... and that was the dealbreaker.
Another thread accidentally provided the answer to that issue. Ordained Champion's Channel Spell ability can convert area effects into single-target; you just have to stab yourself to do it.

I'm not sure how immobile the Globe really is, though. Emanations, by default, continuously radiate from their source, and the Area entry specifies that you personally are the source, rather than your square. The text in the description says you can leave the Globe, but not that you do do so every time you move.

[Socratov]

you do know that the mailman is not immune to a simple trick even a bard can do right?


step 1: invest points in Diplomacy and it's synergy skills
step 2: pump CHA and diplomacy even more
step 3: ???
Step 4: profit!!!!

[nedz]

Hmmm... there IS a solution here, I can smell it. All I need to do is figure out how to get the Globe to move with the caster, and it's done.

It wouldn't be the first time I've picked up a bit of detritus and polished it off a bit...

Just be able to cast lots of them, ideally as an immediate action, using Celerity perhaps ?
Or use Foresight to tell you when to put one up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

you do know that the mailman is not immune to a simple trick even a bard can do right?


step 1: invest points in Diplomacy and it's synergy skills
step 2: pump CHA and diplomacy even more
step 3: ???
Step 4: profit!!!!

Depends if the Mailman is a PC or not, PC are immune to diplomacy checks.:smalltongue:

[Radar]

Considering that a smart Mailman will still have Greater Dispell and/or Disjunction ready to make you vulnerable again, being a Dweomerkeeper is always a good way to keep your buffs going in the heat of a battle. An even more universal way is not being detected at all. It's not an easy task (if at all possible), but for the purpose of stoping Orbs of Inevitable Death you simply need to Hide better, then the Mailman can Spot, which is doable. Add in Vecna-blooded template and there is no direct way to target you aside from Love's Pain for which you might want to get Spell Immunity after all.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Another thread accidentally provided the answer to that issue. Ordained Champion's Channel Spell ability can convert area effects into single-target; you just have to stab yourself to do it.

I'm not sure how immobile the Globe really is, though. Emanations, by default, continuously radiate from their source, and the Area entry specifies that you personally are the source, rather than your square. The text in the description says you can leave the Globe, but not that you do do so every time you move.The Ordained Champion trick makes it a bit harder to persist (I think DMM would still work; I'm shaky on Metamagic Effect), but if you're willing to use the standard action in combat that works pretty well.

Also...
An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphereEmphasis mine.

[Ruethgar]

If it is immobile it wouldn't function unless you considered planets to be completely different in D&D. The planet spinning in place and around the sun would send the effect flying.

[Radar]

If it is immobile it wouldn't function unless you considered planets to be completely different in D&D. The planet spinning in place and around the sun would send the effect flying.
By that reasoning Immovable Rods are useless among other magical items or effects. Immobile means, that it stays in the same place on the map grid.

[Psyren]

If it is immobile it wouldn't function unless you considered planets to be completely different in D&D. The planet spinning in place and around the sun would send the effect flying.

Please, please, think of the catgirls.

[demigodus]

By that reasoning Immovable Rods are useless among other magical items or effects. Immobile means, that it stays in the same place on the map grid.

Useless? Useless? You honestly can't think of a use for a rod that moves at 30km/s?

Facing a dragon that way out classes you? Place a rod in front of the thing (about 200 meters ahead for safety's sake), and activate it. One round later the dragon is 180km away from you, probably in space by this point, making verbal spells a tad bit difficult to cast.

[Dimers]

If it is immobile it wouldn't function unless you considered planets to be completely different in D&D. The planet spinning in place and around the sun would send the effect flying.

You're thinking too small. The galaxy is constantly moving within the universe.

[Carth]

Y'know, that's actually a hilarious use for immoveable rods under more normal circumstances. Cast permanent invisibility on it and place it in front of you, 5' step back, goad something into charging you. Or for a more resource intensive version, while something is already charging, use greater celerity to place it in the path of a charger.

[demigodus]

Ray Deflection has a deceiving name, as it blocks all ranged touch attacks, not just rays. It doesn't stop a Twinmaxed Empowered Fiery Searing Surge of Fortune'd Combust from ruining your day though.

Considering Surge of Fortune is a cleric spell, and combust is a wizard/sorc spell, that would require a limited wish, on top of having your squishy spell get in melee range.

Also, that is only 270 points of fire damage. Short of having Arcane Thesis on Combust, you will need to be level 16 (Incantatrix 10) to pull that off. At those levels, that is no where close to a one hit kill, even against things not immune to fire damage (which would cut damage in half).

Also, miss chance means that this isn't a guaranteed hit.


Why do you even need one thousand, much less "several?" Even a Great Wyrm Gold is only packing around 700hp.

Insurance. The odds of all of your attacks hitting are pretty small. This would insure that most don't need to hit. Just some.

Also, a Tarrasque has 858 hp. Personally I consider that a good goal to aim for when optimizing damage. Once you can reliably one-turn KO the Tarrasque, then there is no more point to optimizing damage.

Also, these are a series of single target attacks. It would be several thousand total, but what if you are facing dozens of low CR, high hp targets? You would need to spread the love.

Granted, hitting several thousand against a single target that doesn't have a way to dodge most of those attacks is complete and utter overkill.


It still wouldn't work on Hail of Stones or other Save or Lose shenanigans

True. However, I don't believe that there is one single spell that protects you from everything. Which is why you should become immune to things, category by category.

[Talya]

I think it's worth pointing out that you're arguing how a more powerful caster type is going to nullify a less powerful caster type.

The Mailman is a good build, but it's not Batman. He may be the best possible blaster build in the game, but he's still a blaster. The fact that you've gone this far back and forth without conclusively ending this discussion to me indicates that the Mailman is optimized WAY above its normal ceiling...because this should be simple.

Anyway, with all the effort you're putting into nullifying the mailman, they all require you to "go first." If you're a wizard fighting the Mailman, aren't you best just ensuring that the mailman is dead/disabled/shut down in some way before he has a chance to shoot you?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ehh honestly I think it comes to an initiative roll in a fight between Batman vs. Mailman, unless you are thinking on Tippy-levels of defences (True Mindswitch into and Ice assassin Vecna Blooded Aleax of yourself + Weirdstone protected demiplane plus Astral projection, and I am sure Tippy could make an even more impenetrable defense in less time than it took me to type this) a mailman can counter many defenses of the Batman since he has access to it's counters.

[Psyren]

Insurance. The odds of all of your attacks hitting are pretty small. This would insure that most don't need to hit. Just some.

You don't need Spell Matrix for that, and removing it will not plummet your damage output into uselessness. This is the kind of baseless hyperbole that encourages people to think anything less than Pun-Pun level optimization is worthless, i.e. the people that spend more time theorywankcrafting than actually playing the game with their friends.

[Karoht]

Ring of Spell Battle (MiC) 12000
If you can be within 60ft of the target, and you can't block line of sight to target you with, this works wonders. You can shunt the mailman's amazing immunity breaking 4bajillion damage unstoppable orbs...
To another legal target within range.
I have yet to see an arguement that states you cannot switch the target to the caster, unless I am grossly misinterpreting how a Ring of Spell Battle functions.

Also, held action counterspells + Celerity is a thing right?

Does Orb of X bipass Spell Turning or Rod of Absorbtion?


(If I'm off my rocker, please say so, it won't surprise me if I'm wrong on this, been a while since I had access to 3.5 and it's array of NO buttons and YES buttons)

[Psyren]

Ring of Spell Battle (MiC) 12000
If you can be within 60ft of the target, and you can't block line of sight to target you with, this works wonders. You can shunt the mailman's amazing immunity breaking 4bajillion damage unstoppable orbs...
To another legal target within range.
I have yet to see an arguement that states you cannot switch the target to the caster, unless I am grossly misinterpreting how a Ring of Spell Battle functions.

Unfortunately, Orb spells don't have a target - they are aimed. So there is no "target" to change. You could counter it though.

[demigodus]

You don't need Spell Matrix for that, and removing it will not plummet your damage output into uselessness. This is the kind of baseless hyperbole that encourages people to think anything less than Pun-Pun level optimization is worthless, i.e. the people that spend more time theorywankcrafting than actually playing the game with their friends.

Never said failure to one turn kill = uselessnesw. You asked for a reason why someone might want absurdly stupid levels of damage. I gave one.

[Talya]

Ehh honestly I think it comes to an initiative roll in a fight between Batman vs. Mailman, unless you are thinking on Tippy-levels of defences (True Mindswitch into and Ice assassin Vecna Blooded Aleax of yourself + Weirdstone protected demiplane plus Astral projection, and I am sure Tippy could make an even more impenetrable defense in less time than it took me to type this) a mailman can counter many defenses of the Batman since he has access to it's counters.

And both of them likely have nerveskitter and the same tools for ensuring that they go first.

Batman is going to have contingencies out the wazoo in case he loses the initiative roll, though. Mailman is less likely to have access to those.

[Psyren]

Never said failure to one turn kill = uselessnesw. You asked for a reason why someone might want absurdly stupid levels of damage. I gave one.

No, I asked for a reason why someone might want multiple thousands of damage. 1000 is still enough to fry the Tarrasque's 858, so 2k, 3k, etc. are not needed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

And both of them likely have nerveskitter and the same tools for ensuring that they go first.

Batman is going to have contingencies out the wazoo in case he loses the initiative roll, though. Mailman is less likely to have access to those.

If the Mailman get's wish he can get an arbitrary number of Knowstones up to level 5 spells for free, that amounts for contingency and loads of spells. As I said at this point it will most likely rely on a single initiative roll.

Edit: @Psyren: it Depends, if you get those thousands of points of damage from a single spell, or over the course of several ones, if the former I agree that going past a 1000 is extreme overkill, but if you only get about 500 points per spell, then getting more is better since you can spread out over several targets if needed.

[Karoht]

Unfortunately, Orb spells don't have a target - they are aimed. So there is no "target" to change. You could counter it though.To aim at person A and roll an attack roll doesn't preclude person A as the 'target' who's (touch) AC needs to be checked?
Meh. Counterspelling it is then.


Also, something a lot of blasters seem to forget.
Most means of seeing through invisibility or Blink or Displacement have a maximum sight range. Outside of that range they receive no benefit (True Seeing has a max range of 60ft), so they still have to go through those effects. Good precautions to take VS Mailman builds, as they are also good precautions to take against just about anything else.

[Talya]

Also, something a lot of blasters seem to forget.
Most means of seeing through invisibility or Blink or Displacement have a maximum sight range. Outside of that range they receive no benefit (True Seeing has a max range of 60ft), so they still have to go through those effects. Good precautions to take VS Mailman builds, as they are also good precautions to take against just about anything else.


Orbs are short range, anyway. They can't exceed 60 feet until level 16 (and then it's only 65 feet... 75 feet at level 20).

[Karnith]

Orbs are short range, anyway.
Except for Orb of Force, for some reason; that one's a medium range spell.

[Karoht]

Disintegrate usually ends up in Mailman builds as a backup. Point is, they can't hit you if they can't see you, even with true seeing if you are beyond 60ft they can have a much harder time striking you.

[Talya]

Disintegrate usually ends up in Mailman builds as a backup. Point is, they can't hit you if they can't see you, even with true seeing if you are beyond 60ft they can have a much harder time striking you.

Fireball also usually ends up in mailman builds as a backup. It can hit you if they can't see you. (though they're not guaranteed to pick the right spot.)

But yes, the value of not being seen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4) is obvious.

[Karoht]

Fireball also usually ends up in mailman builds as a backup. It can hit you if they can't see you. (though they're not guaranteed to pick the right spot.)

But yes, the value of not being seen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmRgQX82O4) is obvious.
Horray for not being seen not being blown up!

In theory you can also bait a mailman with illusions or minions. Keep him busy with trivial threats while you go in for the kill.

[demigodus]

I think it's worth pointing out that you're arguing how a more powerful caster type is going to nullify a less powerful caster type.

The Mailman is a good build, but it's not Batman. He may be the best possible blaster build in the game, but he's still a blaster. The fact that you've gone this far back and forth without conclusively ending this discussion to me indicates that the Mailman is optimized WAY above its normal ceiling...because this should be simple.

Anyway, with all the effort you're putting into nullifying the mailman, they all require you to "go first." If you're a wizard fighting the Mailman, aren't you best just ensuring that the mailman is dead/disabled/shut down in some way before he has a chance to shoot you?

Wait. The Mailman is WAY overoptimized, because we can't find a single spell that if persisted, can shut down the entire build despite all the resources available to it?

[Icewraith]

Remind me, are the orb spells affected by Spell Turning?

[Karnith]

Remind me, are the orb spells affected by Spell Turning?
No, they aren't. Spell Turning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm) doesn't work on Effect spells, and the Orbs have "Effect: One orb of X." Spell Turning is similarly ineffective against rays.

[CombatOwl]

As we all know, the Mailman is a build which is designed to kill nearly any target by bypassing immunities. However, there is one way (other than immunity to hit point damage) to be immune to this:

Globe of Invulnerability.

No, really. Orb of Fire is a 4th level spell. It doesn't matter if SR:NO, because the wording of the spell is:



It isn't that it has an arbitrary SR, it is that you cannot target anyone within the globe.

Now then, the problem with Globe of Invulnerability is that it has a duration of Rounds/level. Well, that's no big deal, because it is an emanation centered on you, and thus able to be Persisted, using one of several metamagic-reducing effects to cram it back down into a 6th level spell.

This also takes care of Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud and several other 'insta-gib' type spells. In fact, this is also the only known method to be immune to the Hail of Stones spell as well.

In short, this often overlooked abjuration can be hailed as the counter to many different types of cheese.

Now of course, this could normally be dispelled, unless you wish to go to Dewomerkeeper for (Su) shenanigans.

You've neglected to consider the instantaneous conjuration (creation) rules. Orbs go through globes of invulnerability just like they do antimagic fields. For precisely the same reason that conjured ranged weaponry does. If you want protection from orb spells, you need to use walls. Seriously, wall of ice works fine.

[Battleship789]

Horray for not being seen not being blown up!

In theory you can also bait a mailman with illusions or minions. Keep him busy with trivial threats while you go in for the kill.

True, but a Mailman should have similar, if slightly weaker, defenses (one doesn't need to use every single part of a build to create a Mailman that can fry anything even remotely close to its level), so one would need to be in range of a Mailman's attacks in order to see said Mailman.

[TuggyNE]

Wait. The Mailman is WAY overoptimized, because we can't find a single spell that if persisted, can shut down the entire build despite all the resources available to it?

Well, sure. After all, any other playstyle or build idea that's not crazy overoptimized can be shut down by a single spell*, right? That's just how it has to be!

Apologies for seriously distorting your viewpoint for humorous effect, Talya.

Edit:
You've neglected to consider the instantaneous conjuration (creation) rules. Orbs go through globes of invulnerability just like they do antimagic fields.

No, they don't. The reason orbs go through AMFs is because AMF says they do. No such clause exists for the globes, and there is no general rule in spell school descriptions or elsewhere that would indicate that.

[Talya]

Wait. The Mailman is WAY overoptimized, because we can't find a single spell that if persisted, can shut down the entire build despite all the resources available to it?



I'm not entirely sure the point of this post. It doesn't directly have anything to do with what I said; it is neither an argument against, nor a restatement of anything I said.

Nevertheless, I disagree with your statement (?) above. I don't like the word "overoptimized." There's no such thing. There are characters that are too powerful for a given play group, but that's not solely dependant on their optimization level.

[Incanur]

This threads reminds me why I hate high-level 3.5 play. :smallsigh:

Player 1: "Okay, that means my contingency goes off."
DM: "Then Sahrn's contingency triggers. Those of the two robed figures beside him do as well. One of them starts casting time stop . . ."
Player 1: "My contingent celerity pops."
DM: "Sahrn casts celerity in response."
Player 2: "I'm using battlemagic perception to counter."
DM: "The second robed figure counters your counter."
Player 3: "Wait, I counter too."
DM: "Suddenly all you find yourselves inside forcecages."
Player 1: "Contingent time stop? Really?"
Player 4: "I'm going cast wish and reverse whatever just happened."

[gomipile]

This threads reminds me why I hate high-level 3.5 play. :smallsigh:

Player 1: "Okay, that means my contingency goes off."
DM: "Then Sahrn's contingency triggers. Those of the two robed figures beside him do as well. One of them starts casting time stop . . ."
Player 1: "My contingent celerity pops."
DM: "Sahrn casts celerity in response."
Player 2: "I'm using battlemagic perception to counter."
DM: "The second robed figure counters your counter."
Player 3: "Wait, I counter too."
DM: "Suddenly all you find yourselves inside forcecages."
Player 1: "Contingent time stop? Really?"
Player 4: "I'm going cast wish and reverse whatever just happened."

Stuff like this always reminds me of the duel at the end of The Raven(1963 film.)

[TETanglebrooke]

Player 1: "Okay, that means my contingency goes off."
DM: "Then Sahrn's contingency triggers. Those of the two robed figures beside him do as well. One of them starts casting time stop . . ."
Player 1: "My contingent celerity pops."
DM: "Sahrn casts celerity in response."
Player 2: "I'm using battlemagic perception to counter."
DM: "The second robed figure counters your counter."
Player 3: "Wait, I counter too."
DM: "Suddenly all you find yourselves inside forcecages."
Player 1: "Contingent time stop? Really?"
Player 4: "I'm going cast wish and reverse whatever just happened."

Why is that a bad scenario? I would be thrilled if my players planned well enough for me to plan against them.

[peacenlove]

Nocturmancer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060303a&page=6) 2-10
(Improved) Mettle (CChampion has it as an item)
Burning his/her spell slots through energy drain and/or Arcane Turmoils
Shadowcaster Warp/Echo spell

[ben-zayb]

1. Mailman seeds are usually nonmagical effects
2. Incorporeal creatures aren't affected by nonmagical attack forms
3. Ghost is LA+5 / 1 Savage progression away. Alternatively, in high level, Ghostform / Shapechange provide incorporeality.

bonus points for throwing a Selective Antimagic just in case they change seeds

[Radar]

1. Mailman seeds are usually nonmagical effects
2. Incorporeal creatures aren't affected by nonmagical attack forms
3. Ghost is LA+5 / 1 Savage progression away. Alternatively, in high level, Ghostform / Shapechange provide incorporeality.

bonus points for throwing a Selective Antimagic just in case they change seeds
What about an Orb of Force? Didn't force effects explicitly work on incorporeal creatures? I'm not even sure, how a ball of supposedly nonmagical non-specific force works, but it might be able to hit a ghost in an AMF.

[Karnith]

What about an Orb of Force? Didn't force effects explicitly work on incorporeal creatures? I'm not even sure, how a ball of supposedly nonmagical non-specific force works, but it might be able to hit a ghost in an AMF.
Force effects do not suffer from th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality)e normal 50% miss chance (or whatever you'd call it) from incorporeality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), though you would probably have trouble finding a Ghost in an AMF, as AMFs cause incorporeal creatures to wink out.

[ben-zayb]

What about an Orb of Force? Didn't force effects explicitly work on incorporeal creatures? I'm not even sure, how a ball of supposedly nonmagical non-specific force works, but it might be able to hit a ghost in an AMF.
Hmm... that actually works. Forceward, maybe?

Take 2
Premise: Mailman Seeds are either (Creation) effects or magical stuff
Solution: Suppressing Field (Creation) + Selective Anti-magic Field


Force effects do not suffer from th (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality)e normal 50% miss chance (or whatever you'd call it) from incorporeality (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), though you would probably have trouble finding a Ghost in an AMF, as AMFs cause incorporeal creatures to wink out.
I'm not sure if a Selective AMF will do that, though. Not to mention that Incorporeality can be done by casters without being ghosts/undead.