Moving same plane teleportation to Transmutation

[Crake]

Ok, so due to the way teleportation normally works (bouncing through the astral plane to make a shortcut) I can see why it would be conjuration. However, in a homebrew campaign setting I'm making, there is no astral plane to bounce through, and instead essentially every plane is coexistant, overlapping eachother. I'm going to keep plane shift as conjuration, as it still moves cross plane, although i'm contemplating moving teleportation spells to transmutation, as I'm fluffing them as warping space, which seems more transmutation-y than conjuration-y. Likewise, i'm thinking about moving ethereal jaunt/etherealness to conjuration, since they bring you cross-plane.

How/would this affect anything I'm not really aware of? What if i were to just move them all to transmutation, even plane shift (since it essentially functions like ethereal jaunt, but to other planes, and permanent)?

Dimensional anchor and other similar spells that prevent dimensional travel still prevent teleportation spells as normal.

[Eldariel]

I'd go with Evocation TBH; it's mostly manipulation of (massive amounts) of energy to create a space-time rift unless you have some kind of a matter-based effect associated.

Balance-wise, Transmutation is kinda undesirable since it's already ridiculously powerful and versatile (much like Conjuration) and Teleportation is one of the few things it can't quite do right out of the box (Shapechange exempted).

Logically, well, Transmutation changes something to something else so guess you just piggyback it on top of time manipulation in Time Stop/Haste-style effects to arrive here? Suppose that does make sense. I think Evocation fits a bit better tho, and is balance-wise much better.

[Crake]

I'd go with Evocation TBH; it's mostly manipulation of (massive amounts) of energy to create a space-time rift unless you have some kind of a matter-based effect associated.

Balance-wise, Transmutation is kinda undesirable since it's already ridiculously powerful and versatile (much like Conjuration) and Teleportation is one of the few things it can't quite do right out of the box (Shapechange exempted).

Logically, well, Transmutation changes something to something else so guess you just piggyback it on top of time manipulation in Time Stop/Haste-style effects to arrive here? Suppose that does make sense. I think Evocation fits a bit better tho, and is balance-wise much better.

Yeah, I suppose I could see that for same plane teleportation. Doesn't quite fit for cross planar though, so I'd probably still keep them as either conjuration or transmutation. I kinda like the idea of plane shift being conjuration, since it actually moves you cross-plane, wheras ethereal jaunt/etherealness are just essentially temporary transformations into ethereal creatures.

Also, how broken would it be to allow gate to function point to point on the same plane?

[Deophaun]

It's obviously Enchantment/Charm. You're magically diplomancing the universe to convince it you're somewhere else. :smallbiggrin:

[Ramza00]

abjuration your are banishing yourself from one area to send yourself somewhere else

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I suppose I could see that for same plane teleportation. Doesn't quite fit for cross planar though, so I'd probably still keep them as either conjuration or transmutation. I kinda like the idea of plane shift being conjuration, since it actually moves you cross-plane, wheras ethereal jaunt/etherealness are just essentially temporary transformations into ethereal creatures.

Also, how broken would it be to allow gate to function point to point on the same plane?

Eh, Gate to replicate Teleportation Circle? Well, it wouldn't break Gate any more than it already is, I suppose. And they're 9th level spells. I suppose it would be okay.

[Maginomicon]

If you absolutely need teleportation without the astral plane, one way you can get around this is by combining a portable hole with ring gates. You give one of the ring gates to an ally to travel manually to your destination. Once they get there, you push half of the cloth of the portable hole through the ring gate. You and your ally then each affix your half of the portable hole to a wall and activate the portable hole. Presto! You've got instantaneous teleportation across an infinite distance with no weight limit or astral plane.

[Crake]

If you absolutely need teleportation without the astral plane, one way you can get around this is by combining a portable hole with ring gates. You give one of the ring gates to an ally to travel manually to your destination. Once they get there, you push half of the cloth of the portable hole through the ring gate. You and your ally then each affix your half of the portable hole to a wall and activate the portable hole. Presto! You've got instantaneous teleportation across an infinite distance with no weight limit or astral plane.

This is from a DM perspective, no need for shenanigans, I can just do what I want, I'm more looking for an opinion from a balance perspective.

[Thanatosia]

As Eldariel said, Transmutation is the last school that should get Teleportation from a balance perspective, it's already the broadest and most powerful by most standards.

Evocation would be a good place for it IMO - give the blasters a little utility, and would'nt require as bizare fluff justification as would say enchantment, illusion, or necromancy.

[Crake]

As Eldariel said, Transmutation is the last school that should get Teleportation from a balance perspective, it's already the broadest and most powerful by most standards.

Evocation would be a good place for it IMO - give the blasters a little utility, and would'nt require as bizare fluff justification as would say enchantment, illusion, or necromancy.

Yeah, I'm quite liking the evocation idea, both from fluff and balance

[Mr Adventurer]

No no, it's clearly Divination since it's really just working out where you already should have been.

Or Necromancy, that's the power over life and death, you're alive, so you use that power to make yourself be alive somewhere else.

Or, well, we all already know that space is an Illusion.

[Mnemnosyne]

Bumping teleport over to conjuration was one of the many strange spell school choices in 3.0/3.5. In 2nd Edition, it used to be alteration...which indeed corresponds to what was renamed transmutation. Other similarly bizarre choices include moving healing spells to conjuration.

I suppose someone during the design process really liked the conjuration school, because it wound up with a number of spells that it didn't used to have, which wound up making it the versatile powerhouse of a school it is today. I would just bump it back to transmutation, as it was originally, just like I always rule that healing spells are still necromancy (healing) instead of conjuration.

[KillianHawkeye]

Weren't teleportation spells part of the Transmutation school in 3E originally before being moved into Conjuration for 3.5?

[hymer]

Yes it was, and it was in 2nd ed. too. Well, 2nd edition Transmutation was called Alteration.

[Talderas]

As Eldariel said, Transmutation is the last school that should get Teleportation from a balance perspective, it's already the broadest and most powerful by most standards.

Evocation would be a good place for it IMO - give the blasters a little utility, and would'nt require as bizare fluff justification as would say enchantment, illusion, or necromancy.

Illusion has Shadow Walk.
Transmutation has Ethereal Jaunt although that doesn't hasten travel.

[Slipperychicken]

No no, it's clearly Divination since it's really just working out where you already should have been.

Or Necromancy, that's the power over life and death, you're alive, so you use that power to make yourself be alive somewhere else.


Enchantment; you're tricking the gods into moving you from one plane to another.

Illusion; You weren't actually at point A. That was an illusion :smallbiggrin:

[Maginomicon]

Illusion; You weren't actually at point A. That was an illusion :smallbiggrin:
No. The universe tricked you into believing you were at point A.

Teleportation is taking the Red Pill... over and over again.

[Crake]

No. The universe tricked you into believing you were at point A.

Teleportation is taking the Red Pill... over and over again.

Wouldn't that then be abjuration, dispelling the illusion?

[Maginomicon]

Wouldn't that then be abjuration, dispelling the illusion?
Probably. Basically, you can probably put teleportation in any school and it'll make sense depending on what kind of flavor you apply. I was mostly trying to just be funny, but you could open up the flavor to players as a plot hook for other matters. (i.e. "What if none of this is real and teleportation is the key to unlock the truth?")

[Slipperychicken]

Wouldn't that then be abjuration, dispelling the illusion?

Or maybe since the self is an illusion, Teleport dispels one instance and creates another?

[TETanglebrooke]

Teleportation is Necromancy.

You're disintegrating your body in one place and reassembling it somewhere else then reanimating/possessing it.

[TETanglebrooke]

Illusion; You weren't actually at point A. That was an illusion :smallbiggrin:

There is no spoon.

[Slipperychicken]

Teleportation is Necromancy.

You're disintegrating your body in one place and reassembling it somewhere else then reanimating/possessing it.

Actually, that's also a decent argument for Transmutation too.

Kind of like Star Trek's transporters, where you technically die and get reassembled every time you use it. Philosophically speaking, you might be a different person after using it.

[Deophaun]

No. The universe tricked you into believing you were at point A.
Then you don't actually need a spell to be anywhere. You just make a Will save to disbelieve. Maybe with a pair of fancy shoes you click together to give you a +2 bonus to the roll.

[KillianHawkeye]

Teleportation is Necromancy.

You're disintegrating your body in one place and reassembling it somewhere else then reanimating/possessing it.
Actually, that's also a decent argument for Transmutation too.

Kind of like Star Trek's transporters, where you technically die and get reassembled every time you use it. Philosophically speaking, you might be a different person after using it.

This is why I wish more spells were part of multiple schools. Teleportation would thus require transmutation to disassemble and reassemble your body, conjuration to open a tiny wormhole to your destination, and necromancy to allow your soul and life force to retain control of your new body.

[Pickford]

slippery_chicken:

Kind of like Star Trek's transporters, where you technically die and get reassembled every time you use it. Philosophically speaking, you might be a different person after using it.

What do you mean technically? You do die.

Spoilers:
It's like in the Prestige (except in Star Trek they actually go ahead and kill the original you every time).

See: Tom Riker and William Riker

This is one of those things that makes the premise of transporters, and their common use, so horrifying. Everyone who's using them is actually committing suicide. That a new body is re-assembled elsewhere doesn't do the 'you' that dies any good.

[JoshuaZ]

slippery_chicken:


What do you mean technically? You do die.

Spoilers:
It's like in the Prestige (except in Star Trek they actually go ahead and kill the original you every time).

See: Tom Riker and William Riker

This is one of those things that makes the premise of transporters, and their common use, so horrifying. Everyone who's using them is actually committing suicide. That a new body is re-assembled elsewhere doesn't do the 'you' that dies any good.


The show was never really consistent about that. But even in that case, it isn't really philosophically clear. If aside from weird plot specific examples like the one you gave, the assembly process is directly connected to the disassembly, it isn't clear that this should be thought of as killing. Apparently different people have radically different intuitions about this sort of thing. A lot of ink has been spilled by philosophers on these issues.

[TETanglebrooke]

another facet in the 'are you being killed' debate is that in DnD the 'soul' actually exists. That makes it harder to say for sure.

[ryu]

another facet in the 'are you being killed' debate is that in DnD the 'soul' actually exists. That makes it harder to say for sure.

No that would end the debate immediately. Kill someone and resurrect them after a days time with their agreement beforehand. Teleport that same person into an area with anticipate teleport. Ask them if the latter was familiar.

[TETanglebrooke]

No that would end the debate immediately. Kill someone and resurrect them after a days time with their agreement beforehand. Teleport that same person into an area with anticipate teleport. Ask them if the latter was familiar.

Go do that and let me know what they say.

[Pickford]

The show was never really consistent about that. But even in that case, it isn't really philosophically clear. If aside from weird plot specific examples like the one you gave, the assembly process is directly connected to the disassembly, it isn't clear that this should be thought of as killing. Apparently different people have radically different intuitions about this sort of thing. A lot of ink has been spilled by philosophers on these issues.

If you can create a person with the exact same memories, yet no knowledge of each other, while leaving the former person intact, then destroying the former person at the same time is death.

[ryu]

Go do that and let me know what they say.

I meant in-universe. We have neither conclusive proof of souls, nor either of the two spells, or equivalents of them... yet.

[kabreras]

Make it universal...

It use bits of every schools...