Strongest non-magical creatures in all the system [3.5/PF]

[Morph Bark]

So I was thinking about non-magical campaign settings earlier, and I got to wondering about what the strongest non-magical creatures are that exist in 3.5 (or even in Pathfinder, considering they're easily interchangeable).

I'm playing a character right now in a non-magical setting that intends to hunt down the strongest beast in the world (CR-wise, of course) as his life goal.

"Non-magical" meaning a creature that can exist without magic (meaning no outsiders or elementals, and most undead are out as well--probably even all of them, but I'm hoping there are undead that fit the bill) and that do not have any Psi-like, Spell-like or Supernatural abilities.

[TuggyNE]

CR-wise, Str-wise, or what?

[Red Bear]

So I was thinking about non-magical campaign settings earlier, and I got to wondering about what the strongest non-magical creatures are that exist in 3.5 (or even in Pathfinder, considering they're easily interchangeable).

"Non-magical" meaning a creature that can exist without magic (meaning no outsiders or elementals, and most undead are out as well--probably even all of them, but I'm hoping there are undead that fit the bill) and that do not have any Psi-like, Spell-like or Supernatural abilities.

Assuming you mean CR-wise, if you are willing to consider some undead non-magical then I'd say a kraken without his few spell like ability can be considered a good candidate.

otherwise you can apply some non magical templates (e.g. advanced, giant, dire, legendary) to the strongest animals like a tyrannosaurus

[Morph Bark]

CR-wise, Str-wise, or what?

CR-wise yes.

One issue with the double meaning of the word strength. :smalltongue:


Assuming you mean CR-wise, if you are willing to consider some undead non-magical then I'd say a kraken without his few spell like ability can be considered a good candidate.

otherwise you can apply some non magical templates (e.g. advanced, giant, dire, legendary) to the strongest animals like a tyrannosaurus

A good start, but if that Kraken has any SLAs, it's not a candidate at all then.

I want to do this without templates, because they make things too easy and aren't always accessible.

[some guy]

Pathfinder's Deep Sea Serpent (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/serpent-deep-sea) only has Energy Resistance and Immunity, but those can be (Ex). It's CR 19.

[Forrestfire]

Template-stacked battletitans maybe?

[Prime32]

Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) is CR 50.

[Morph Bark]

Pathfinder's Deep Sea Serpent (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/serpent-deep-sea) only has Energy Resistance and Immunity, but those can be (Ex). It's CR 19.

That's a very good one! It also seems to be a PF Core creature. Only shame is that it isn't a land creature.

It's perfect in that it's no more than CR 20 and no more than 24 HD.


Template-stacked battletitans maybe?

Hmmm, what templates are non-magical in nature and increase CR?


Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) is CR 50.

:smalleek: Dang, son. That's scary.

...but vastly appropriate. :smallbiggrin: I guess those would be #1-4 on the list.

I didn't even know there were such creatures of such high CR! I went into this thinking there might've been an animal of CR 20, but no more.

[Gamereaper]

I'm not sure if there is anything stronger or not, but the Tarrasque has been very iconic throughout the series being known as a unique monster that is EXTREMELY powerful. Maybe give that a go.

[Karnith]

Also from the ELH, there are Ruin Swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/ruinSwarm.htm), Sirrushes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/sirrush.htm) (though technically DR 10/Epic is a Supernatural ability), and Tayellas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/tayellah.htm) (again, with the caveat about DR/Epic).

[eggynack]

:smalleek: Dang, son. That's scary.

...but vastly appropriate. :smallbiggrin: I guess those would be #1-4 on the list.

Or perhaps vastly inappropriate Give it another read through, and you'll note that the devastation beetle has no fight, a highly limited ranged option, imperfect defenses, and no native method of recovering HP. Those factors in combination make it a pretty easy kill, and at levels far before 50. Really, any character that can fly, and make ranged attacks which deal more than 20 damage, can do this trivially. The thing even has a touch AC of 12, so 5th level wizard packing acid arrow and fly could complete the task trivially, given enough time and a place to escape to. The latter task could be a tricky one to accomplish, but it should be clear how easy this would be for a 50th level party. It's a set of issues that plagues many of these epic monsters.

[Karnith]

Or perhaps vastly inappropriate Give it another read through, and you'll note that the devastation beetle has no fight, a highly limited ranged option, imperfect defenses, and no native method of recovering HP. Those factors in combination make it a pretty easy kill, and at levels far before 50. Really, any character that can fly, and make ranged attacks which deal more than 20 damage, can do this trivially. The thing even has a touch AC of 12, so 5th level wizard packing acid arrow and fly could complete the task trivially, given enough time and a place to escape to. The latter task could be a tricky one to accomplish, but it should be clear how easy this would be for a 50th level party. It's a set of issues that plagues many of these epic monsters.
While that's all true, per the OP this is going on in a non-magical (and presumably non-psionic) setting, so there aren't going to be spells, flying becomes less accessible, and so do the easiest means of moving faster than the thing, making it more of a threat.

I still don't think it's worth CR 50, though.

[Xefas]

The deadliest monster is man, of course! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286983)

But you already knew that. Dragons are iconic! And the Draconomicon has the Mountain Landwyrm, a completely non-magical dragon with CR 22. It's kind of begging to be Shadow-of-the-Colossufied.

[Dusk Eclipse]

However I would say that the Devastation beetle would make a pretty boring fight, essentially it is an over inflated sack of HP. The Sirrush seems to be more fun, though I would be wary of such high attack bonus, since there is no magic getting AC high enough to matter against them will be quite difficult if not outright impossible (ditto for miss chances, I can't recall any readily available non-Su source for them)

The Deep Sea Serpent can easily be changed into a land-bound creature, change it to have a land speed (50 is okay I guess) and perhaps give it a climb speed or even a burrow and keep elusive but only active when underground (creatures with tremorsense would detect it though). Capsize is another matter, perhaps some sort of uber-Sundering ability?

[Luciandevine]

However I would say that the Devastation beetle would make a pretty boring fight, essentially it is an over inflated sack of HP. The Sirrush seems to be more fun, though I would be wary of such high attack bonus, since there is no magic getting AC high enough to matter against them will be quite difficult if not outright impossible (ditto for miss chances, I can't recall any readily available non-Su source for them)

This is a very valid point for any low magic or no magic world. Without the bonuses to attack rolls, damage, benefits of spells in general, and of course all the ac items, attack bonuses like that will hit every time, with devastating effects, even if it is just 1 hit per turn. Without the aforementioned bonuses 25d10+24 can add up quickly.

[Morph Bark]

I'm not sure if there is anything stronger or not, but the Tarrasque has been very iconic throughout the series being known as a unique monster that is EXTREMELY powerful. Maybe give that a go.

Sadly, the Tarrasque is also a magical creature with at least one supernatural ability, and thus out.


While that's all true, per the OP this is going on in a non-magical (and presumably non-psionic) setting, so there aren't going to be spells, flying becomes less accessible, and so do the easiest means of moving faster than the thing, making it more of a threat.

I still don't think it's worth CR 50, though.

It's certainly not worth CR 50, though it IS definitely high, but that's just from high numbers. For the question I asked, it is valid, but it's indeed not much of a fun fight.


The deadliest monster is man, of course! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286983)

But you already knew that. Dragons are iconic! And the Draconomicon has the Mountain Landwyrm, a completely non-magical dragon with CR 22. It's kind of begging to be Shadow-of-the-Colossufied.

Classes are unnatural, you fiend! :smalltongue:

Will certainly check Draconomicon now. Perhaps Lords of Madness as well.


Some great monsters have been linked so far, with only a few disqualifying from a single supernatural ability or more. The Deep Sea Serpent from Pathfinder is a good one, with the only issue being it seems to not be a first-party creature.

The highest CR PF creature I could find that was first-party that fits the criteria from the OP is the Black Scorpion (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/scorpion/scorpion-black).

[Xefas]

Classes are unnatural, you fiend! :smalltongue:


Your final conquest has to be able to talk, though. So, at their moment of death, they can wistfully chuckle amidst hacking, bloody coughs, and congratulate you on becoming the world's new strongest monster.

[eggynack]

While that's all true, per the OP this is going on in a non-magical (and presumably non-psionic) setting, so there aren't going to be spells, flying becomes less accessible, and so do the easiest means of moving faster than the thing, making it more of a threat.

I still don't think it's worth CR 50, though.
It's not that much more of a threat. The beetle only moves at 70 ft., so anything moving faster might as well be flying. It's nowhere near impossible to go that fast, even in a mundane manner, and you can just rely on occasional crits to break the DR and AC.

[dspeyer]

Classes are unnatural, you fiend! :smalltongue:

There's nothing unnatural about a Mountain Giant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020802) taking 20 levels in warblade. Duskblade would be, but who doesn't like hitting harder?

Meanwhile, I'm off to figure out why Devastation Beetles aren't in my monster finder, and if I missed anything else. Edit: Fixed!

[Hamste]

It's not that much more of a threat. The beetle only moves at 70 ft., so anything moving faster might as well be flying. It's nowhere near impossible to go that fast, even in a mundane manner, and you can just rely on occasional crits to break the DR and AC.

Poor bugger would die from a sorcerer with a good fly spell and enough spell slots with orbs.

[eggynack]

Poor bugger would die from a sorcerer with a good fly spell and enough spell slots with orbs.
That's very much true, and is what I was originally going with at first (though I used acid arrow, because that let's you get the kill at 5th level, and actual damage doesn't matter in attrition battles). However, with hyper-mundane folks, you lack orbs and flight, and thus have to use speed and arrows or something.

[Hamste]

That is a bit harder you need to beat out speed 70 and a huge empty plain. If you could figure out how to throw an acid flask or a flask of oil 70 ft it would go a lot faster.

It's kind weird they have a giant cloud of acid around them but no immunity to acid.

[Pex]

Human Adventurer

:smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

That is a bit harder you need to beat out speed 70 and a huge empty plain. If you could figure out how to throw an acid flask or a flask of oil 70 ft it would go a lot faster.

It's kind weird they have a giant cloud of acid around them but no immunity to acid.
Harder, but not impossible. You don't really need to be particularly effective outside of this situation, or even in this situation over the short term, so a mount can easily get you to that speed. A pegasus can even get you flight, which solves the problem trivially.