[PF => 3.5(ish)]Oracle: Class power without curse?

[Aotrs Commander]

As I am picking up an increasing number of Paizo and Pathfinder adventure paths, it is inevitable I'm going to start running into some of the Paizo classes. This is going to mean I will have to either completely rebuild the characters to my own rules (which lie somewhere between 3.5 and PF, towards the former) or - as I intend to do - I will need to amalgamate the newer PF classes, more or less intact.

In looking at oracle, in preparation for doing so, I am decidedly unimpressed with the Oracle's curse, which appears to mainly grant a fairly severe non-removable penalty for a pretty insipid bonus. It doesn't seem like a particularly useful balancing feature, given that the power base to compare it against is the likes of the 3.5 cleric, druid and archvist, not the marginally less powerful PF versions of at least the first two.

So. I am therefore wondering whether simply removing the whole thing wholesale (or perhaps regulating it to an optional class feature) would be reasonable (given that otherwise, the niche of "spontaneous divine caster" is inexpertly filled by the solidly mediocre Favoured Soul).

I'm not in the least bit concerned about the loss of flavour (though I don't consider it to be poarticularly good flavour to start with), since I mandate that classes are strictly metagmae concepts whose flavour is entirely mutable.

To put it more briefly, then: if I removed Oracle's Curse, would it make the class too powerful, considering it's other nominal 3.5 tier 1 stablemates?

[Spore]

To put it more briefly, then: if I removed Oracle's Curse, would it make the class too powerful, considering it's other nominal 3.5 tier 1 stablemates?

No because the Curse is a MINOR drawback for very useful benefits. If anything you'd decrease the power of the oracle class.

[Aotrs Commander]

No because the Curse is a MINOR drawback for very useful benefits. If anything you'd decrease the power of the oracle class.

From what I've seen, those drawbacks are hardly minor and/or the advantages aren't anything to speak of.

Blindsight 30'R/Blindsnese 15'R for the near-utter inability to affect anything beyond 60' because you can't target it?

-4 to attack rolls for series of weak spells (that in any case are out-peformed in the majority by the wider access of 3.5 spells, e.g. Ice Flowers)?

+50% effective damage for an absolutely feeble amount of temporary hits (which at level 15, is unlikely even to break even with your +50% nonlethal damage)

Deafness might just be mechanically worth it (for automatic Silent Spell), but it's going to drive the other players up the wall, having to communicate via mime or spending skills on a... is there even a sign langauge?

Haunted looks like it might not come up very often, but converely it doesn't exactly have anything special to add to your spell list.

Lame, Legalistic, Tongues and Wasting are likewise marginally not too terrible, but neither do they grant you much.

Wolfscarred is skullpalmingly bad. 20% chance of not being able to use your primary class feature in exchange for two druid/ranger spells you could take UMD and a scroll for on a pretty rubbish natural attack? Yeesh.

Wrecker again might just about be worth it, provided you want people to actually hit you (my experience thus far with high-level play is that PC AC tends to be pretty stratospheric, and the major danger is more likely to be spells), but might at least have some utility.

At the moment, I can't see a good reason not to just drop the negative effects and make oracle's curse oracle's boon and leave it at that. (Maybe tie the abilities into the mysteries or something.)

Wrecker and deaf aside, what I am missing?

[Novawurmson]

Immunity to fatigue (from Lame) is pretty amazing for a multiclass Barbarian.

In general, I'd say giving players the option to take the curse (and its benefits) or leave it would be fine.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Personally I like the curse system, but making it optional works just fine.

One other thing: If you're going to backport the Oracle, I strongly suggest giving it Turn Undead as a cleric, or at least making it easier for mysteries other than Life to gain Turn Undead/Channel Energy. Turning attempts to qualify for PrCs or fuel divine feats becomes more and more important the more 3.5 material you add, and thus the Cleric and Oracle grow further and further apart in terms of power and utility.

[Snowbluff]

(given that otherwise, the niche of "spontaneous divine caster" is inexpertly filled by the solidly mediocre Favoured Soul).


Lies and slander. Spontaneous Divine Caster, UA. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) Clerics get the flavorful benefit of getting their domain spells known for free. If the oracle doesn't have the curse, don't waste your time.

[Vortenger]

Snowbluff, doesn't that variant rule technically replace the cleric and druid if you're using them?

[Craft (Cheese)]

There's nothing in there that says you can't have a spontaneous cleric and a prepared cleric in the same party.

(And even if it did, there's nothing stopping the DM from allowing it anyway.)

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, Craft's got it. Especially the part about the DM, since he's already making a large alteration. :smallsmile:

[Aotrs Commander]

Personally I like the curse system, but making it optional works just fine.

One other thing: If you're going to backport the Oracle, I strongly suggest giving it Turn Undead as a cleric, or at least making it easier for mysteries other than Life to gain Turn Undead/Channel Energy. Turning attempts to qualify for PrCs or fuel divine feats becomes more and more important the more 3.5 material you add, and thus the Cleric and Oracle grow further and further apart in terms of power and utility.

So noted and will be done.

Would you make that a straight addition, or perhaps as the class feature the optional curse replaces?



Speaking of Turn Undead: I have been considering allowing the PF Cleric's channel energy as a possible AFC for Turn/Rebuke (just generally).

(I didn't like the version presented in, Complete Divine, was it? It seemed way too good (multiple D6/level? Umm... No), but this isn't too bad.) It's not that much of a healing boost, since I have DRASTICALLY improved the healing spells, Cure/Inflict line especially, on the basis that a healing spell should be curing AT LEAST as much damage as an offensive spell should be inflicting. (CLW/ILW is now 5+D8/level (max 5D8), for example, and Lesser Vigour is up 2/rnds a level, with a max of 30 rnds, I think.)

Basically, some campaigns don't have a lot of Undead in them and the cleric players are not always that bothered about Divine feats (Sudden MM are generally popular and we play at a pace where the 15-minute adventuring day is often not only expected, but required, so it's often quite useful.)

Thoughts?

[Spore]

From what I've seen, those drawbacks are hardly minor and/or the advantages aren't anything to speak of.

The Trick is too build your character around that impairment. My buffing oracle is dual cursed with Tongues (which hardly has a drawback when the group is presented with Linguistics to learn the language) and Clouded Vision. And I don't care because the sight is enough now to cast anything on the battlefield and buffing can be centered on me and still reaches everyone.

My Haunted oracle will never be using a weapon because he just summons monsters and his animal companion to do the dirty work. And Telekinesis is a great spell with great utility. The others are mostly flavor, but Ghost Sound and Silent Image are great to open up on a fight as well.

Also this "burn victim" curse is great because fire.

You are right, the impairment is not so small as I said but your build can make it a nuissance or a hefty problem. And curse or no curse, oracle will stay t2 anyway. I would just remind you of the oracle only spells which give your mates the benefits of the curse or your enemies the drawbacks. As well as the archetypes (dual cursed will be broken without the curses).

[Craft (Cheese)]

So noted and will be done.

Would you make that a straight addition, or perhaps as the class feature the optional curse replaces?

Straight addition, definitely. A cursed oracle comes out a bit ahead of a non-cursed one for some builds designed to avoid the penalty and reap the benefits (like the barbarian multiclassing option), but otherwise they're generally balanced and the curse just adds flavor if the player wants it. No need to make it a trade, IMO.


Speaking of Turn Undead: I have been considering allowing the PF Cleric's channel energy as a possible AFC for Turn/Rebuke (just generally).

(I didn't like the version presented in, Complete Divine, was it? It seemed way too good (multiple D6/level? Umm... No), but this isn't too bad.) It's not that much of a healing boost, since I have DRASTICALLY improved the healing spells, Cure/Inflict line especially, on the basis that a healing spell should be curing AT LEAST as much damage as an offensive spell should be inflicting. (CLW/ILW is now 5+D8/level (max 5D8), for example, and Lesser Vigour is up 2/rnds a level, with a max of 30 rnds, I think.)

Basically, some campaigns don't have a lot of Undead in them and the cleric players are not always that bothered about Divine feats (Sudden MM are generally popular and we play at a pace where the 15-minute adventuring day is often not only expected, but required, so it's often quite useful.)

Thoughts?

More than fair. Though be wary that channel energy stops being relevant as a healing option for most groups around level 5: After that it suffers the same fate as turning and is either ignored or used to fuel something else.

[Aotrs Commander]

Straight addition, definitely. A cursed oracle comes out a bit ahead of a non-cursed one for some builds designed to avoid the penalty and reap the benefits (like the barbarian multiclassing option), but otherwise they're generally balanced and the curse just adds flavor if the player wants it. No need to make it a trade, IMO.

Righto.


More than fair. Though be wary that channel energy stops being relevant as a healing option for most groups around level 5: After that it suffers the same fate as turning and is either ignored or used to fuel something else.

On the other hand, in my experience, Turn quickly becomes meaningless as Turn Resistance spikes and the "half level" factor steadily scales destructable Undead out of the meaningful bottom level of threat.

I was also planning to note in the updated description that Channel would count as Turn for the purposes of all turning-related feats (e.g. Divine, Extra Turning) anyway.


Lies and slander. Spontaneous Divine Caster, UA. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) Clerics get the flavorful benefit of getting their domain spells known for free. If the oracle doesn't have the curse, don't waste your time.

UA and it's assorted contents are not on my list - I have never thought any of it's options were particularly well-balanced.

The Trick is too build your character around that impairment. My buffing oracle is dual cursed with Tongues (which hardly has a drawback when the group is presented with Linguistics to learn the language) and Clouded Vision. And I don't care because the sight is enough now to cast anything on the battlefield and buffing can be centered on me and still reaches everyone.

I just plain don't like restirctions like that. Classes should be a series of powers to allow your character to do what you want them to, and having to build them specific ways to get round disadvantages just rubs me the wrong way. (Notably, my list of approved PrC classes runs to about a third to half at best of what's in the books I use, anything with a strong world-specific flavour doesn't make the list without even batting an eyeglow.)

Also, in my games, inability to fight at range can be absolutely crippling. The PCs might get away with in inside and while playing Golarion advanture paths... But a maximum 60' vision range is just not going to cut it in wilderness or my own campaign world (especially notable for the presence of many flying enemies, which often will have ranged attacks (like the giant crow-falcons that can occasionaly breath lasers or throw razor feathers ala X-Men's Archangel and who are Smarter Than Humans). In my games you just don't not have ranged capability, on either side of the screen. (Unless you happen to have picked Warblade, and then... Well, you're gonna be screwed if it's out of javelin range...)

[Craft (Cheese)]

I was also planning to note in the updated description that Channel would count as Turn for the purposes of all turning-related feats (e.g. Divine, Extra Turning) anyway.

I approve.

[Spore]

In my games you just don't not have ranged capability, on either side of the screen. (Unless you happen to have picked Warblade, and then... Well, you're gonna be screwed if it's out of javelin range...)

It is one thing disliking a class feature as mixed as curses but it is an entirely different thing to talk about capabilities without thinking about the options

1) A bralani azata/wind elemental is very capable of ranged fighting or fighting while flying.

2) You have ALLIES. You can buff up even the sluggish Dex 10 Barbarian to be a nimble bow master in a couple of rounds.

3) You have disabling spells. Command them to land. Make them blind. Cast up a wind wall. Dispel debuffs. Counter magic.

An oracle can contribute to the fight in various better ways than: "Shoot it with your crossbow." I wouldn't condemn a curse because it sucks between the levels 1-5. Most curses do. That's the blind spot of the oracles class.

[Aotrs Commander]

3) You have disabling spells. Command them to land. Make them blind. Cast up a wind wall. Dispel debuffs. Counter magic.

Which you can't target because beyond an exceptional listen perception check, you don't know where the target is you're casting at. You might be able land area-effect stuff in the vicinity - maybe - but even then you have to have rough idea of where the vicinity is.

(As flying and invisible creatures are something of a particular menace, our group is very hot on the rules for same. So there would be no glossing over the fact. And if you can't see something, it is, sort of by definition, invisible. In fact, PF's own rules on invisibilty mean you can't try and pin-point it outside 30', and I doubt 3.5's (as I can't be bothered to dig out my rules Compendium just at the moment) are any different. Even if you do allow that (and I generally do), the difficulty will be going right up because of the distance.)

So you're limited to summoning (which in the niche case of my camapign world does NOT give you access to the 3.5 or PF bestiary, but the worl's own, so your choices are much more limited at the moment, though that's, as I say, more a niche case: nevertheless one that I , at least, must consider if I'm to open Oracle out as a normal class, as opposed to being A Thing Only NPCs Have on PF Adventure Paths) or buffs (which, because 3.5 Dispel Magic is virtually mandatory for every caster can have it's own problems.)


An oracle can contribute to the fight in various better ways than: "Shoot it with your crossbow." I wouldn't condemn a curse because it sucks between the levels 1-5. Most curses do. That's the blind spot of the oracles class.

I was generously considering the upper 60' visual range, not the 30' of lower level, which is a crippling hinderance even in regular play. Especially since Perception is not a class skill. (3.Aotrs uses the way PF skills are gained, if basically on top of 3.5 skill list with a couple of skills folded in.)

Granted, Clouded Vision is probably in the running for most cripplingly bad curse along with Wolfscarred, but the point remains.

(It also does not help my first experience with an oracle was a pregen the one time I played ar a PFS game (as it was at an RPG convention, of which I've been to all of, what two, of, and m and my mate had not thought that far ahead) was a with one of same: a pregen so staggeringly poorly built she was better at range than in melee and couldn't do anything beyond 30. That sort of thing does REALLY not endear you.)

That and the fact that I believe that no character class should suck at any point, especially in the lowest and most vulnerable (and availed of least options) levels.

(And before anyone comments, at our play paradigm and houserules, we've had fighters and monks cheerfully contributing - considerably - all the way up to Epic before now...!

The only base class I have outright banned (as opoosed to upgrading) was CW samurai, because unlike the other "weaker" classes there was absolutely nothing worth salvaging that couldn't be done by single-class fighter (given Aotrs-Fighters get a Feat every level.))

[Karoht]

In looking at oracle, in preparation for doing so, I am decidedly unimpressed with the Oracle's curse, which appears to mainly grant a fairly severe non-removable penalty for a pretty insipid bonus.Check out the Legalistic curse. It is a curse in name only. All you have to do is not break promises, and you will never deal with the penalty if you never promise to do anything.
In addition, you can get a +4 morale bonus once to one roll that day, as long as it pertains to a promise that you make. A great example is, you tell your adventuring buddy "I promise I'm going to survive to the next sunrise." In the event your life is threatened, you have a critical save to make, invoke your bonus to the roll, hope you make the save.
This in addition to some other perks at higher levels.

Haunted I wouldn't really call a curse either. My DM banned Dual-Cursed Legalistic/Haunted for pretty much these reasons.


So. I am therefore wondering whether simply removing the whole thing wholesale (or perhaps regulating it to an optional class feature) would be reasonable (given that otherwise, the niche of "spontaneous divine caster" is inexpertly filled by the solidly mediocre Favoured Soul).
I'm not in the least bit concerned about the loss of flavour (though I don't consider it to be poarticularly good flavour to start with), since I mandate that classes are strictly metagmae concepts whose flavour is entirely mutable.
To put it more briefly, then: if I removed Oracle's Curse, would it make the class too powerful, considering it's other nominal 3.5 tier 1 stablemates?Not at all. Spontaneous full progression divine casting is still pretty awesome with or without the curse. The only curses that take the class (for example sake only) from T2 to T3 would probably be the blind or mute curses, and even those are iffy. Losing the curse and keeping the Mystery/Revelations in addition to spontaneous divine is quite potent.

This is before we get into Paragon Surge shenanigans.