what should I use for warhammer 40k?

[mc skittlez ninja master]

Hey im getting into warhammer 40k and Im not sure what race to use. I want one that fits my personality and that I could use skillfully. I am leaning towards the Tau, but I would like your feed back. My personality: I am a person who favors quick more than slow, probably because Im lazy. I like to obliterate my opponents in as little blows I need. I guess Im really looking for an assasin race sorta... Could you help me?

[Penguinizer]

If you want to use meath shield rush tactics then I recommend the Tyranids.

[mc skittlez ninja master]

what about the Necrons?

[Penguinizer]

Im not really sure about them. Im pretty sure they have a good long range firepower.

[Destro_Yersul]

Ok, veteran 40k player coming through. You want something quick, that kills whatever it fights quickly. Go with the Tyranids, probably a genestealer horde.

Genestealers are one of the best troop choices in the game. They get to ignore armour and auto wound on a 6 to hit, the can go an extra d6 inches per turn and they get two attacks each. If you take a broodlord as your HQ you can make one squad of them infiltrate in exchange for losing the d6 per turn movement. Make sure you also give them all extended carapace. 4+ armour instead of 5+ really makes a difference, especially against Space Marines, which is the highest played army.

For sneaky assassin-type fun, lictors are always good. They can show up anywhere and are more than a match for most enemy units. The Carnifex is slow, but can totally blow away the enemy army if it gets to them. Alternatively you can give it shooting weapons and have it sit back as nigh-unkillable fire support, especially if you also give it extended carapace.

Just my $0.02

[Penguinizer]

Any idea on how to get the extended carapace onto the genestealers when the back arms are raised up at a high angle, I have some problems with that. I prefer warriors for my elite choice though. But at some point I may get more zoanthropes to use as synapse creatures, then I can probably fit in a lictor.

[Selrahc]

Quick sneaky assasin types? Dark Eldar.

Barely anyone plays them, but they really are a fun army. High initiative, lots of killing power, but extremely fragile. The assasins of 40K.

(Apart from the actual assasins that can be included in Demonhunters and Witchhunters)

[Saithis Bladewing]

Quick sneaky assasin types? Dark Eldar.

Barely anyone plays them, but they really are a fun army. High initiative, lots of killing power, but extremely fragile. The assasins of 40K.

(Apart from the actual assasins that can be included in Demonhunters and Witchhunters)

That is somewhat true. Dark Eldar either win really fast, or they lose in a slow grueling and humiliating battle. Poor sods, its usually the latter though.

[DarkCorax]

Necrons are quite slow, but hard to take down.

Eldar/dark Eldar or 'nids are probably your best choice.

[Murongo]

You should play grey knights. No basic unit has more killpower than a basic grey knight. They're hyper-expensive point-wise but they make up for it. As far as speed goes they can teleport on to the battlefield anywhere, they can all take transports etc, they're a very fast army (they have to be, with the survivability of a basic marine and twice the cost of a marine, they can't afford to get shot at for long). But they're unrivaled in melee combat in terms of attacks, strength, weapon skill etc.

And as an added assassin effect, they have an ability called "the shrouding" which forces enemy units to spot them before they can shoot at them (the enemy rolls 3d6x3 and if your grey knights are beyond that number in inches they can't see them).

Not to mention you don't have to spend a fortune 'cause you can make a 1500 pt army with like 20 models...

[Selrahc]

You should play grey knights. No basic unit has more killpower than a basic grey knight. They're hyper-expensive point-wise but they make up for it. As far as speed goes they can teleport on to the battlefield anywhere, they can all take transports etc, they're a very fast army (they have to be, with the survivability of a basic marine and twice the cost of a marine, they can't afford to get shot at for long). But they're unrivaled in melee combat in terms of attacks, strength, weapon skill etc.

Ahem. Player of both maxed out Khorne berserkers, and Deathwing Terminator armies. And erstwile player of a harlequin army.

Grey Knights definitely aren't the basic troop with the most expensive cost. They definitely aren't unrivalled in terms of attacks, since they have a fairly crappy number. Beaten by Harlequins in weapon skill, since the base troop had a 6.

Deathwing terminator armies rack in at 45 points for a basic model. Khorne Berserkers can be up to 28 per model, 25 without grenades(And substantially kick the ass of Grey Knights in close combat). Harlequins cost 26 for the basic models, as do Bloodletters.

Many of them beat grey knights in one degree or another. Grey Knights just happen to be the most mainstream elite troop as strandard troop army.
:smallbiggrin:

(By the by, I don't just play elite armies, I also have one or two horde armies up my sleeves. I just enjoy the gameplay a lot with the small elite force style of play)

[Murongo]

Ahem. Player of both maxed out Khorne berserkers, and Deathwing Terminator armies. And erstwile player of a harlequin army.

Grey Knights definitely aren't the basic troop with the most expensive cost. They definitely aren't unrivalled in terms of attacks, since they have a fairly crappy number. Beaten by Harlequins in weapon skill, since the base troop had a 6.

Deathwing terminator armies rack in at 45 points for a basic model. Khorne Berserkers can be up to 28 per model, 25 without grenades(And substantially kick the ass of Grey Knights in close combat). Harlequins cost 26 for the basic models, as do Bloodletters.

Many of them beat grey knights in one degree or another. Grey Knights just happen to be the most mainstream elite troop as strandard troop army.
:smallbiggrin:

(By the by, I don't just play elite armies, I also have one or two horde armies up my sleeves. I just enjoy the gameplay a lot with the small elite force style of play)

Khorne berserkers are base 24 points and they do NOT kick the ass of grey knights in melee, rather its an even match. I'll admit I know jack about harlequin point costs but harlequins are close-range gun troops aren't they?
Deathwing, like all dark angels, are slow and heavily armored. Hardly a lot of killpower, at least compared to grey knights.

Also, in the new version there aren't harlequins or deathwing (yet) so who knows? Grey knights are still more offensively built and faster than any of aforementioned units.

Your units were only more expensive once you upgraded, and if by "crappy amount of attacks" you mean 2 or 3 for the squad leader vs a harlequin's 2, a berserk's 2 for basic unit and 2 for squad leader or a termy's 2, we're fairly even. As for the harlequin, WS 6 dosen't mean jack when you're so puny you can't wound. Grey knights have strength 6, stronger than most heavy guns!

[Penguinizer]

Genestealers get 3 attacks normally I think.

[Selrahc]

Khorne berserkers are base 24 points and they do NOT kick the ass of grey knights in melee, rather its an even match.

Khorne Berserkers=14+5 for Mark of Khorne +3 for Furious Charge +1 for Frag Grenades +2 for Krak Grenades +2 for the Khornate chainaxes, so 27 not 28. And without Krak grenades(Which are generally a stupid upgrade) they're only 25.

For that you get 3 attacks which give you only a 4+ armour save, if you charge them then you probably have the advantage, but still lose a good chunk of your unit. On the other hand if you get charged, which is the statistically more likely occurence, since Berserkers have slightly enhanced
move speed, they will rip you to bloody shreds without taking a single casualty.


I'll admit I know jack about harlequin point costs but harlequins are close-range gun troops aren't they?

Not even close. Harlequins are dedicated melee atack units, and are better at it than Grey Knights. For a start, they move faster. That gets them into combat. Secondly, if you equip the unit with all the nice weaponry it deserves, then the entire unit will either be hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's, or hitting on 3's, wounding on 5's, and ignoring armour, generally a nice miox of both.

You on the other hand, even with weaponskill 5 will be hitting on fives, since their Grav belts halve your ws and round down, and they have ws 6. Couple that with a higher initiative than you, and some nasty Eldar grenade types and you have a unit that can stomp all over Grey Knights in melee.

Their weakness is at range, since all they have to protect them is a persistent 4+ cover save.


Deathwing, like all dark angels, are slow and heavily armored. Hardly a lot of killpower, at least compared to grey knights.

Are you arguing that something worth twice the points cost is less powerful? :smallconfused:

Well they aren't slow. They move as normal infantry. Exactly the same as Grey Knights. And they do have a lot of killpower compared to grey knights, since an assault terminator squad also counts as a troop choice, or even a mixed squad.

They're also wearing terminator armour, which gives them a huge survivability boost over the Knights.


Your units were only more expensive once you upgraded, and if by "crappy amount of attacks" you mean 2 or 3 for the squad leader vs a harlequin's 2, a berserk's 2 for basic unit and 2 for squad leader or a termy's 2

Berserks get two as standard, plus one for dual close combat weapons. Same as harlequins, same as assault terminators. One more than the KNights.

A Khornate squad leader is a fearsome thing, so if you realy want to bring them into the argument, you can have a squad leader with 6 attacks, cleaving through armour, rerolling to wound. Or a squad leader with five attacks, gaining extra attacks on sixes to hit, with two rerolls. If we bring squad leaders in, a Khorne Aspiring Champion can take down a whole squad of Grey Knights on his own.



Also, in the new version there aren't harlequins or deathwing (yet) so who knows? Grey knights are still more offensively built and faster than any of aforementioned units.

The old Deathwing list is still legal to play, since its a third edition codex. Harlequins was a set of rules published in third edition, and that are still playable.

Unless you want to say that Demonhunters themselves are illegal to play.




Anyway, you said Grey Knights were the most elite force. They aren't, there are many other forces that can make that claim better than Grey Knights. Deathwing is undeniably a more elite force, with a higher base cost/model.
Arguing which troop is more effective is going off on a tangent rather.

[Destro_Yersul]

Incidentally, A unit of Genestealers can take on a unit of berserkers. They have the advantage of numbers, and enhanced movement speed, and their max save is +4 anyways, so the chainaxes are less effective as an upgrade. Grey knights, I've found, are too expensive to be worth it. I mean, if your opponent has a unit of devies with plasma cannons, that's most of your army going splat.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Incidentally, A unit of Genestealers can take on a unit of berserkers. They have the advantage of numbers, and enhanced movement speed, and their max save is +4 anyways, so the chainaxes are less effective as an upgrade. Grey knights, I've found, are too expensive to be worth it. I mean, if your opponent has a unit of devies with plasma cannons, that's most of your army going splat.

QFT, Khornate berserkers' true potential are kind of wasted against medium and light infantry, especially assault specialists, since the Chainaxes are tweaked to deal with heavy armour. They'll still perform, mind you, just not as well. You're also right about the Grey Knights, and that also applies to Deathwing and, to a slightly lesser degree (IMO), Harlequin armies. They're very elite, true, but they're also still pretty soft and without other advantages keeping them up, they're likely to go down if you sneeze on them. Elite troops are very useful, but an entire army of them doesn't have a lot of manpower and lucky rolls won't save you if the enemy starts bringing out the weapons that ignore your nice fancy saving throws.

[PokeTheBard]

No, no, no, no...

If you want to finish an army in two turns, just buy an Iron Warriors chaos army and lascannon everything to scrap before they can say anything about it.

[Bryn]

There are in fact 4th ed. rules for Harlequins in the new Eldar codex. They're just a unit now, not an entire list.

[Saithis Bladewing]

No, no, no, no...

If you want to finish an army in two turns, just buy an Iron Warriors chaos army and lascannon everything to scrap before they can say anything about it.

I highly doubt lascannon armies can kill an infantry based army in two turns. :P



There are in fact 4th ed. rules for Harlequins in the new Eldar codex. They're just a unit now, not an entire list.

Are they? That makes me very happy, actually, I never thought the Harlequins were a good choice for an entire army list. Too elite to be useful on their own.

[Dan8uillin]

eldar excel at ranged and close combat, and are hard to kill if you play mechanised. they're also player friendly in this edition. dark eldar are an insanley difficult army to play, as are grey knights, which aren't all that much harder to shoot to death than marines(once you in range). plus eldar have almost all new models right now, they look really cool.

[Murongo]

Khorne Berserkers=14+5 for Mark of Khorne +3 for Furious Charge +1 for Frag Grenades +2 for Krak Grenades +2 for the Khornate chainaxes, so 27 not 28. And without Krak grenades(Which are generally a stupid upgrade) they're only 25.

For that you get 3 attacks which give you only a 4+ armour save, if you charge them then you probably have the advantage, but still lose a good chunk of your unit. On the other hand if you get charged, which is the statistically more likely occurence, since Berserkers have slightly enhanced
move speed, they will rip you to bloody shreds without taking a single casualty.

As I said, upgrades. And unless you're playing a khorne army, keep in mind these are elite choices, not basic troops. Also keep in mind that dual close combat weapons is not basic, and if you do take it you're completely useless against guns, whereas grey knights have a tank-mounted anti-infantry gun mounted in their wrist that they weild like a pistol (gaining the same extra attack khornites get while dual weilding weapons.)

Choppaz are an annoyance but they're only reducing the GK armor save by 1, whereas S 6 against S 4 is no contest, mathematically a 4+ followed by a 4+ with a 4+ save is going to wound less often than a 3+ followed by a 2+ followed by a 3+ save. Not to mention the Justicar's power weapon, which has 3 attacks and to which there are no saves.

When you say improved move speed I assume you're talking about furious charge, another upgrade, but it gets to the point that these guys are so concentrated on melee that it becomes retarded. If you want a good melee unit you still need some kind of range, or the enemy will just backpedal and shoot. And again, unupgraded Khorne berserkers are still cheaper than grey knights.



Not even close. Harlequins are dedicated melee atack units, and are better at it than Grey Knights. For a start, they move faster. That gets them into combat. Secondly, if you equip the unit with all the nice weaponry it deserves, then the entire unit will either be hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's, or hitting on 3's, wounding on 5's, and ignoring armour, generally a nice miox of both.

I'd like to see the numbers. I'd also like to see the new eldar book stats, I can't see an eldar basic troop being that godly without some flaw, like no armor or no guns. I've yet to see an all-around godly unit for the eldar, its not their style. Not to mention if you want to play a fast, hard-hitting melee army, you wouldn't play eldar. They're fast, but they aren't hard-hitting nor are they melee-centered.


You on the other hand, even with weaponskill 5 will be hitting on fives, since their Grav belts halve your ws and round down, and they have ws 6. Couple that with a higher initiative than you, and some nasty Eldar grenade types and you have a unit that can stomp all over Grey Knights in melee.

Grey knights have an equivelant item, but like all troop choices, they don't have access to the armory to take it. Grenades are more or less useless on an unpinnable, fearless enemy, not to mention, once again, that these are all upgrades, and not basic abilities.


Their weakness is at range, since all they have to protect them is a persistent 4+ cover save.
Nooow I see, they have jack for armor. That pretty much means they have to wipe the enemy out in the first round of combat or they're dead.


Are you arguing that something worth twice the points cost is less powerful? :smallconfused:

Well they aren't slow. They move as normal infantry. Exactly the same as Grey Knights. And they do have a lot of killpower compared to grey knights, since an assault terminator squad also counts as a troop choice, or even a mixed squad.

No, and I never made the statement that GK are more powerful. I originally said that they had more hitting power than any other basic unit, which they do.

They ARE slow. They can only consolidate, they can't overrun, they can't use their heavier guns on the move. The terminator armor is a waste of points against grey knights, I have a friend who plays deathwing who repeatedly learns to respect the Justicar's 3+ to hit 2+ to wound and no saves beyond a 5+ invul.


They're also wearing terminator armour, which gives them a huge survivability boost over the Knights.
Addressed. Any way you look at it, they aren't a fast, hard-hitting team, like the OP wanted.


Berserks get two as standard, plus one for dual close combat weapons. Same as harlequins, same as assault terminators. One more than the KNights.
GK get 2 standard, justicars get 3. Nice try though.


A Khornate squad leader is a fearsome thing, so if you realy want to bring them into the argument, you can have a squad leader with 6 attacks, cleaving through armour, rerolling to wound. Or a squad leader with five attacks, gaining extra attacks on sixes to hit, with two rerolls. If we bring squad leaders in, a Khorne Aspiring Champion can take down a whole squad of Grey Knights on his own.

I don't see how you figure that, a khorn squad leader is just a regular khorne berserker with 1 more leadership and 1 extra attack. Unless you're using his 50 points of armory access, which is already somewhat consumed by his mark. In THAT case if you take a justicar's 50 points and spend it on terminator armor and a talisman... gg




The old Deathwing list is still legal to play, since its a third edition codex. Harlequins was a set of rules published in third edition, and that are still playable.

Unless you want to say that Demonhunters themselves are illegal to play.

Anyway, you said Grey Knights were the most elite force. They aren't, there are many other forces that can make that claim better than Grey Knights. Deathwing is undeniably a more elite force, with a higher base cost/model.
Arguing which troop is more effective is going off on a tangent rather.
They are the most elite force, although the only assertion I made was that basic GK have the most hitting power out of any basic unit. They're the most elite force because of their terminators and commanders. A GK Grand Master with terminator retinue can take on -anything- in the game.

My point with deathwing was that 4.0 marines have come out, and deathwing isn't present, although dark angels are, as have eldar, and yet harlequins are only one unit choice. They've been replaced, and thus aren't legal unless you're just messing around with buddies and you agree to it.

[Artanis]

I'd like to see the numbers. I'd also like to see the new eldar book stats, I can't see an eldar basic troop being that godly without some flaw, like no armor or no guns. I've yet to see an all-around godly unit for the eldar, its not their style. Not to mention if you want to play a fast, hard-hitting melee army, you wouldn't play eldar. They're fast, but they aren't hard-hitting nor are they melee-centered.
For what it's worth, Games Workshop has an updated Eldar reference sheet up on their website. It's not like having a whole Codex or anything, but there's still a whole lotta numbers on it.

[Selrahc]

You know what? I had a really long reply typed up, and then I just thought, screw it. This is a tangent, we're not really disagreing over anything major, and its not worth the time I would spend arguing it.

Suffice to say, I disagree with your original statement. But that it bears up well enough.

I am going to add this though




They ARE slow. They can only consolidate, they can't overrun, they can't use their heavier guns on the move. The terminator armor is a waste of points against grey knights, I have a friend who plays deathwing who repeatedly learns to respect the Justicar's 3+ to hit 2+ to wound and no saves beyond a 5+ invul.

Terminators can't chase down broken foes. That doesn't really make them slow, since chasing down a defeated foe doesn't impact your movement on the battlefield.

Consolidation is the movement after combat, Terminators can do that. Aside from that they move as infantry, same as Grey Knights. Neither are fast, neither are slow.

Terminators can also fire heavy weapons while they move, that being one of the big perks about being a terminator.

EDIT: Oh, and Deathwing is still a viable army. Its fine by Games Workshop, and they've given errata for the Dark Angels codex.

Of course the fact that the new Dark Angels codex is out soon could change things.

Harlequins are now a defunct choice, as of the release of the new Eldar codex. They used to be a list along the lines of Kroot Mercenaries or Tank Companies on the GW website.

[PokeTheBard]

I highly doubt lascannon armies can kill an infantry based army in two turns. :P


No you're probably right. My 'nid army WAS decimated by an Iron Warriors army with around 30 autocannons though. Not nice. :smallfrown:

[Ikkitosen]

I suggest you play Dark Angels Space Marines since I have a million if them to flog on eBay :smallbiggrin:

[Mr. Moon]

Tyranids have a lot of Fleet and wing options, which is good for getting to your enemie quickly, which sounds like what you wanted. I'd recomend Genestealers, Hormogaunts, and a Synapse Creature with a Wings biomorph, such as a Winged Hive Tyrant or (I think) winged Warriors.


Genestealers get 3 attacks normally I think.


I think you can only get that if you give them Scything Talons. Attack: 2+1, right?

[Penguinizer]

oh ok. Mine have scything talons :P thats probably where I got it.

[McDeath]

Necrons are the neener-neener race (although scarier). We'll Be Back means that a good number of your troops will stand back up after being killed. Also, Flayed ones deep striking and Wraiths give much-needed speed, and the Veil of Darkness is a useful piece of kit. Essentially, necrons are tough. Really tough, and with some great ranged firepower. Unfortunately, most of their units are pretty average in hand-to-hand.

[Ferahgo]

Tau do work for a fast, fairly hard-hitting army. Pack in lots of skimmers (Hammerheads, Devilfish with full loads of Firewarriors for Fish-of-Fury action), tons of 'Suits. Nicely manueverable, with lots of big guns.

[madfool2]

Thing is with Tau is that once something gets into combat with them, it's normally game over.

Not instant, my Tau eat grey knight and nurgle terminators for breakfast :smallbiggrin: .

But armies, fast stuff would be Tau, Dark and craftworld Eldar, you could even attempt a mechanized space marine force (lots of transport's), main problem is thats alot of steal coffins for the emperor's finest.

[Dragor]

Me? I prefer playing roleplay, rather than thinking what's going to hit hard and win battles. I know this sounds stupid, but it was rather the background and fiction of 40K that drew me in.

I used to collect Orks, but I've changed my mind and started collecting Witch Hunters. If you want assassins, go with either Witch Hunters or Daemon Hunters. However, Witch Hunters have the Adepta Sororitas, or the Sisters of Battle. I describe them as 'Nuns with Guns' but my friend, who collects Dark Eldar, calls them 'Failed Space Marines.' Call them what you like, they're very versatile and have some very interesting models.

On the painting side, you can make SoB (Sisters of Battle, not Son of a...!) look extremely good with little effort. Even with only basecoats, they look very good.

As for the Assassins, you've got the Vindicare Assassins (long range snipers) Culexus Assassins ('Soulless' anti-psyker assassins) Callidus Assassins (can use Polymorphine to morph into different races) and the Eversor assassins, who specialise in shock or horror tactics.

Well, thats my bit said and done. Just trying to get some more Hunter players :smallbiggrin: I'm the only person who plays them at my local GW store!

However, what really floats your boat from what you've said is Dark Eldar. Seemingly a neglected race, and the rulebook does seem to be anti-Dark Eldar, they are probably the closest you can get to an extremely quick victory. However, quick victories do not win wars.... and long and gruelling victories are usually better, in my opinion.

Suffer not the witch to live!