[PF] Most annoying Spells for DMs

[Zeromage1]

What spells in Pathfinder do you other DMs find annoying? I'm talking about the ones that almost instantly end encounters that you spent lots of time planning for? What spells are ridiculously overpowered? And how do you cope with them?

[BWR]

Mostly the same ones that were a problem in 3.5. Some of them have been toned down a bit, but that's it. Mostly, recently Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic. A couple of my buffed bosses have been seriously debuffed by a string lucky DM/GDM rolls, making them go down a lot easier than intended. Yes, turnabout is fair play and I have done so but I haven't been quite so lucky with my rolls.

[Thrair]

While still fairly new to long-term DMing, I can say as a player that a well-aimed Black Tentacles can utterly demolish some encounters on the first round, and is available fairly early (4th level spell).

Main ways to avoid that are:
A) Giving the BBEG high initiative.
B) Monsters with high CMD.
C) At higher levels, contingency spells to teleport/dimension door out if incapacitated by hostile actions.
D) Not clumping up bad guys right before combat begins, and having some threats get close to the party to make friendly fire a concern.

These are generally good things to do, anyways.




On another note, while it's not strictly a combat spell, Scrying spells can bypass a lot of things and allow people to "peek behind the curtain", as it were. However, there are lots of ways to avoid it. Mage's Private Sanctum, Non-Detection, Mind Blank, etc.

Speaking of which, Mind Blank is an extremely useful spell, and I'd highly recommend it on any high-level Big Bad. Aside from making him hard to detect and scry/fry, it also provides a big bonus to saves against pesky save-or-lose spells (which, while inefficient overall, can make for an anti-climatic finish if you botch the save).



Oh, and that reminds me: Terrible Remorse can be frickin' abused like no other spell in the game, and is one of the few spells in the game where succeeding on the save is arguably worse than failing it. (If you fail, you deal a bit of damage to yourself at the start of your turn. If you make the save, you are staggered and take a -2 penalty to AC for that round.)

It can be spammed to really lock down a boss, especially since a higher level baddy will probably have good saves that'll nearly always beat a 4th-level spell's DC. Only ways to really prevent it are spell resistance, or to just be flat-out immune to it.

[Zeromage1]

I've heard black tentacles are a nightmare for GMs. I was sending a hoard of zombies against some PCs and they were utterly stopped by entangle.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'm not terribly fond of Find the Path. Perhaps a small complaint, but I rather not use it anymore as a player or as a DM.

[Khanjar]

*arches eyebrows* What party with 4th level spells is going to be seriously threatened by zombies?

Worst case scenario is to just walk away, since zombies are basically perma-slowed. I suppose you could use some corpsecrafting feats and a faster base chasis to get their speed up to maybe 50ft, but still, most characters can still out-walk them and dictate the terms of engagement.

[Faily]

Common complaints I've heard are:

Wind Walk - Traverse huge distances without the risk of running into "random" encounters, and quickly bypassing dangers.

Black Tentacles - Above-mentioned reasons. It just messes up so many encounters. But turn-about is fair play. ;)

Confusion - Oh, ok, it might be more of a case that I really disliked this as a player when the rest of the group had horrid Will saves because for some reason, Wisdom is a dump-stat. *rolls eyes* It's no fun being surrounded by a Confused-party, though the same can go for the GM's mooks as well.

[watchwood]

Glibness comes to mind pretty damned quick. The bluff bonus was 'nerfed' in pathfinder to a mere +20, but that's still enough to badly break most social encounters.

If I were writing it, I'd either make it a flat +10 or a +CL bonus (and the same with most other +skill check spells)

[Keneth]

I've never really had a problem with any spell. I've come into the habit of nerfing some of them for the purposes of balance, but even at their worst, none of the spell ever caused any issues for my encounters. If anything, it's the players that suffer from being unprepared for a well placed confusion or a massive swarm of magic missiles.

[RustyArmor]

I'm often one of the ones defending wizards minus a few dirt bag spells. But luckily our group also tend to play our games at around 1-15 level. So the big ones like gate/shapechange rarely become an issue. But entangle and black tentacles become a problem at times.

A game we played a while ago the DM took pride in making this group of five NPCs who were two levels higher then us that were going to give us a run for our money. We bumped into them in town and the sorcerer cast black tentacles it was over. Keep in mind the sorcerers player rolls so damn high all time that he can make a tier6 destroy a tier1. This party that was suppose to kick our butts was helpless as the DM simply could not beat the sorcerers rolls. Even their group wizard kept failing his concentration checks due to poor rolls. The sorcerer player with the biggest s*** eating grin on his face saying "Oh I feel so bad casting that spell" while nuking the party with scorching rays and elemental orbs. The rest of the six party members? We all went to the tavern and drank.

Grease is also a pretty bad one for its level to point when I DM I give all the BBEG "No slick" shoes.

[Greenish]

Wind Walk - Traverse huge distances without the risk of running into "random" encounters, and quickly bypassing dangers.Teleport similarly removes many travel-based storylines. There's a reason it's listed as a Story-Breaker Power (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoryBreakerPower) (warning, TV Tropes link).


Grease is also a pretty bad one for its level to point when I DM I give all the BBEG "No slick" shoes.There was a (WotC published) encounter somewhere where the enemies, even the mooks, had "special shoes" that made them immune to Grease and caltrops (both of which naturally featured prominently).

[yougi]

At low-levels, I've grown to hate Web and Entangle with a burning passion. DC20 Strength check? Well, this thing has 16 Str, so that's only going to take an average of 6 rounds before I make it.

[Azernak0]

*arches eyebrows* What party with 4th level spells is going to be seriously threatened by zombies?

I think it was two separate thoughts. "I have heard Black Tentacles is annoying for DM's." *pause* "I recently had a horde of zombies stopped by the spell Entangle."

[Deaxsa]

not a spell, but when the entire party rolls high on initiative(and the opponents roll low), i basically give the boss an extra 100 hp or something.. it's not even a challenge otherwise.

[Thurbane]

Detect Evil.

Makes having intrigue type adventures difficult, right from 1st level. No save.
"Hmm, who could have commited this dastardly deed - oh wait, all of the suspects are here, and this one is evil."
"Hassan chop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMJfX_V6Ic)!"

And depending if PCs are HG (Homicidal Good), can be used to justify slaughtering certain peasants and other noncombatants left, right and centre.

[Deaxsa]

Detect Evil.

Makes having intrigue type adventures difficult, right from 1st level.
"Hmm, who could have commited this dastardly deed - oh wait, all of the suspects are here, and this one is evil."
"Hassan chop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMJfX_V6Ic)!"

And depending if PCs are HG (Homicidal Good), can be used to justify slaughtering certain peasants and other noncombatants left, right and centre.

you can easily subvert this by making the real culprit right in his crime, or making all the culprits evil, or mixing+matching to your preference, though.

[Novawurmson]

Magic Jar, especially against normally mindless targets (who often have next to nothing for a Will save).

[Thurbane]

you can easily subvert this by making the real culprit right in his crime, or making all the culprits evil, or mixing+matching to your preference, though.
Yeah, requires a fair bit of DM tinkering, especially if you are running a prepublished adventure.

And that's far from the only secnario where it can cause issues - random stranger you meet in the road and offers you advice on which route to take? Oh, he's evil. Kill him and take his stuff, and ignore his advice because it was obviously a trap.

Couple with the fact it's no save, and that Paladin's get it at will right out of the box.

Sure, at higher levels characters can defend against it, but unless you get a false neagtive, lack of a result is instantly going to raise suspicion anyway.

It's a spell I have had headaches with for years. We used to houserule you only got a reading if the target (other than a demon etc.) actively had evil intentions at the moment of scanning.

[Keneth]

Sure, at higher levels characters can defend against it

Actually, any 3rd level spellcaster, or a 1st level bard can defend against it. Undetectable alignment is easy to come by, and a continuous magic item of undetectable alignment would only set you back 1,000 gp (or 6,000 gp if bards never thought of making them). A potion brewed by a bard would likewise only cost 50 gp.

And that's before you consider that NPCs with less than 4 HD don't even register as blip, and that evil creatures aren't always the culprit of whatever is going on, more so if evil alignments are common in the region.

[Thurbane]

I'm not saying that Detect Evil is unbeatable, but I am saying it is annoying. I consider any spell, class feature, feat etc. where the DM has to load opponents up with certain spells or items as a defense to be problematic.

For me, arms races of this kind break verisimilitude.

[Greenish]

I seem to recall Dread Necromancers also get Undetectable Alignment as a 1st level spell. Still, it often does require tweaking premade adventures.

[Squirrel_Dude]

For me it's spells with that have one or more of these features.

1. They force me into making a bunch of rolls every round (black tentacles)
2. They trivialize combats to being who runs out of ways to escape/wars of attrition (teleports)
3. They end nearly any chance of mystery (very high level divination)

There are spells that are hard to deal with, but are constants so it kind of becomes routine.

[Keneth]

For me, arms races of this kind break verisimilitude.

So... you don't want to put any effort into countering a common player tactic? Do you also not equip armor on your NPCs? :smallconfused:

D&D settings are worlds filled with magic. It stands to reason that anyone living in them, especially villains, would take steps to protect their weaknesses.

As for premade adventures, there's simply no way to ensure that the adventure accounts for every possibility ever. You're not supposed run the thing as written to the letter; It is assumed that GMs will take liberties to adjust the adventure in order to appropriately challenge their players. Unless you're playing PFS, but then you've got bigger problems.

[TETanglebrooke]

This is starting to just sound like a list of spells that are actually useful.

[Psyren]

For me, arms races of this kind break verisimilitude.

Detectable alignment is a common part of most D&D settings. The key is to turn it to your advantage - remember that people who detect as not evil, or who speak in a zone of truth etc. tend to be automatically trusted, which can actually be more dangerous than simply mistrusting everyone.

[icefractal]

I don't mind most of these; the game changes at higher levels, and that's a good thing - else why even go through the leveling-up process?

However, there are a few which annoy me.
* The Orb series. Not because they're powerful. That's fine, and it's not even like they're uncounterable. But a "non-magic" orb of force energy?! Just stupid. And their placement gives Evocation another kick in the junk.

* Shivering Touch. Actually is pretty broken. You can deal with it, but the effort required is out of line for a 3rd-level spell.

* Astral Projection. Having a fairly risk free chance to try something, I'm fine with - it is a 9th level spell, and prepared foes can certainly deal with it. Duplicating all your limited-use items and abilities - nope!

* Glibness - The fact that Bluff goes way off the RNG means you have to either:
A) Stealth-nerf it by not letting it do anything that good.
B) Make anyone important take anti-Bluff measures that also prevent normal conversation.
C) Have the world ruled by charlatans, always.

* Identify / Very high Spellcraft - Ok, this is just a personal one, there's nothing objectively wrong or broken about knowing what stuff does. But - I really like the occasional mysterious / deceptive item that isn't necessarily an artifact, and it just doesn't work well. I wish there was more granularity, where you could find out some of the item's information without knowing everything.

[Psyren]

I've said this before, but my explanation for the orbs is that they are volatile, low-sentience elementals created on the spot, that do nothing but kamikaze charge whoever you point at and transfer all their energy on impact. This explains how they can be "non-magical" but still scale in damage, why they persist in AMF and ignore SR, why they are ranged touch attacks instead of ranged attacks (you aren't throwing them), and why the energy or material dissipates upon impact (or missing.)

[Thurbane]

So... you don't want to put any effort into countering a common player tactic? Do you also not equip armor on your NPCs? :smallconfused:
Snark aside (or is that included) you seem to have grossly exaggerated my point.

When I do DM, of course I do have important encounters have some counters to common PC tactics.

Moving on from my simple annoyance with the Detect Evil spell, as a more general point, too often on the boards I see answers like "Oh if a Beguiler PC is beating down enemies with mind-affecting save or sucks, throw hordes of mindless undead or golems at the party".

In either a pre-written of homebrewed campaign, this type of heavy handed and obvious tactic would break verisimilitude for me, from either side of the DM screen. The campaign would start to feel more like some sort of level based side scrolling beat-em-up video game than a living, breathing world. This is purely a personal opinion, and I realize that I am in the minority feeling this way.

I'd rather address problematic issues with a gentleman's agreement or a houserule, than get in to some kind of whacky arms race where I am (again, moving beyond simple Detect Evil) throwing farcically well prepared or hand chosen monsters at the party to counter problematic spells or other abilities.

[Aotrs Commander]

I've said this before, but my explanation for the orbs is that they are volatile, low-sentience elementals created on the spot, that do nothing but kamikaze charge whoever you point at and transfer all their energy on impact. This explains how they can be "non-magical" but still scale in damage, why they persist in AMF and ignore SR, why they are ranged touch attacks instead of ranged attacks (you aren't throwing them), and why the energy or material dissipates upon impact (or missing.)

I just call 'em the magic equivilent of a blasters or sonic cannons or electroblasters or zats or flamers or something. It makes the neem bolt shoot by magic means rather than technological ones, but attack itself is still no more magic than your average PPG, phaser or DH-17.

[Barstro]

...I see answers like "Oh if a Beguiler PC is beating down enemies with mind-affecting save or sucks, throw hordes of mindless undead or golems at the party".

In either a pre-written of homebrewed campaign, this type of heavy handed and obvious tactic would break verisimilitude for me,...

I've always thought that BBEGs managed to hold their position because they have at least limited access to augury or scry. If they can see how PCs are beating their minions, then BBEG can prepare.

To the left, I fully agree with your refusal to change battles "just because the PCs keeping winning". But augury/scry is a good in-character reason for enemy types to change.

[Ravens_cry]

Detect Evil.

Makes having intrigue type adventures difficult, right from 1st level. No save.
"Hmm, who could have commited this dastardly deed - oh wait, all of the suspects are here, and this one is evil."
"Hassan chop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlMJfX_V6Ic)!"

Yeah, that's just not being creative. Maybe they are all evil, or maybe they are too low level for them to detect as evil. And even if they are evil, that doesn't mean they did it, and even if they are evil and did it, that doesn't mean they don't have political connections that make them untouchable. Maybe a good or neutral person (or even evil) did it, but had a reason that isn't apparent, that makes the deed less dastardly; say, manslaughter, not murder. Or maybe it is murder or similar crime, but one act isn't enough to push them from good to outright evil.
Seriously, there is so many ways to play this, even with Detect Evil.
Awesome Looney Tunes reference though.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Yeah, that's just not being creative. Maybe they are all evil, or maybe they are too low level for them to detect as evil. And even if they are evil, that doesn't mean they did it, and even if they are evil and did it, that doesn't mean they don't have political connections that make them untouchable. Maybe a good or neutral person (or even evil) did it, but had a reason that isn't apparent, that makes the deed less dastardly; say, manslaughter, not murder. Or maybe it is murder or similar crime, but one act isn't enough to push them from good to outright evil.
Seriously, there is so many ways to play this, even with Detect Evil.
Awesome Looney Tunes reference though.Or, since Detect Evil doesn't show what everyone's alignment is, and only highlights evil creatures, undetectable alignment or misdirection ought to do it, too.

[Ravens_cry]

Or, since Detect Evil doesn't show what everyone's alignment is, and only highlights evil creatures, undetectable alignment or misdirection ought to do it, too.
Furthermore, it can add yet another depth of intrigue to the case when someone has a legitimate reason why they hide their alignment unrelated to the issue at hand.

[Slipperychicken]

I've seen at least 3 bossfights go down in the first two rounds to enchantment save/lose. Sleep and Hold Person are the bane of unbuffed beefcake bosses.


I've heard black tentacles are a nightmare for GMs. I was sending a hoard of zombies against some PCs and they were utterly stopped by entangle.

Zombies really aren't much of a threat when PCs can run away or outsmart them. Also, their reflex and will saves are garbage. They're like lobotomized fighters with broken legs and no weapons. It seems like they need to be combined with something else, which forces the PCs to fight on their terms (like a lack of escape routes) to be a real danger even at low levels.

[nedz]

In the first 3.5 game I ran we hadn't read Plane Shift properly and missed the accuracy limitation. Queue the party adventuring mainly on the Ethereal where, at their level, there were very few suitable encounters. So the challenges are either bypassed or predicable. When they did go up a few levels, and more ethereal encounters were possible, they stop using this trick. Only later did we read the spell properly.

[Fooliscious]

At lower levels(like, sub 10)...scratch that, all levels I absolutely HATE Invisibility. It trivializes so many things, and characters at low level aren't going to have access to 24/7 see invis. By the time the baddies cast a See Invis(if they are lucky enough to have it) it's usually too late.

Fly would be up there too, but most higher level critters can fly. Low levels? Why bother having enemies at all.

[watchwood]

There are a number of simple, cheap, nonmagical counters to invisibility that intelligent creatures can take. Dangling strings from the ceiling with beads on them, and having them happen every few inches comes to mind pretty quick. Especially if they're all long enough to reach the floor.

You could also cover the floor with flour or something. Invisibility doesn't stop you from leaving footprints.

[Slipperychicken]

There are a number of simple, cheap, nonmagical counters to invisibility that intelligent creatures can take. Dangling strings from the ceiling with beads on them, and having them happen every few inches comes to mind pretty quick. Especially if they're all long enough to reach the floor.

You could also cover the floor with flour or something. Invisibility doesn't stop you from leaving footprints.

Guard dogs are another cheap defense. They can simply smell/hear the invisible creature and bark/point it out. And they're used in the real world, so you can hardly argue that it's unrealistic. (Edit: You could totally train them to sniff out spell components too. All that bat guano, body parts, insects, and demon blood would have a serious odor)

Trained bees are a possibility, but they might not fit in most scenarios.

Keeping your doors closed/locked is another one. An invisible creature still needs to get doors open, unless they've got something like a burrow speed. Then you see the door opening seemingly on its own and get ready to rock.

[Novawurmson]

Trained bees are a possibility, but they might not fit in most scenarios.

I vote bees (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3BDeDdkObY/UGNgOCyhs5I/AAAAAAAADQw/bXDbsZbJxDU/s1600/oprah-bees.gif).

Also, See Invisibility isn't that difficult to get. I'd image the heads of most serious guard organizations would have it placed on them permanently.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I vote bees (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3BDeDdkObY/UGNgOCyhs5I/AAAAAAAADQw/bXDbsZbJxDU/s1600/oprah-bees.gif).Obvious response. (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/601/623/361.gif)



Also, See Invisibility isn't that difficult to get. I'd image the heads of most serious guard organizations would have it placed on them permanently.Probably not standard city guards, but top-level palace guards or serious mercenary organizations should be expected to have quite a few pieces of detection-type gear.

Detect Evil/Chaos/etc.
Detect Magic/Arcane Sight
See Invisibility/Invisibility Purge.

Stuff along those lines.

[Slipperychicken]

Probably not standard city guards, but top-level palace guards or serious mercenary organizations should be expected to have quite a few pieces of detection-type gear.

Detect Evil/Chaos/etc.
Detect Magic/Arcane Sight
See Invisibility/Invisibility Purge.

Stuff along those lines.

I imagine a palace would try to keep a Paladin by the gates to scan visitors prior to entry. If we're talking Pathfinder, then an Inquisitor, since he can scan each alignment.

Detect Thoughts would be a nice one, if you could keep it up. That might get pulled out during a state of emergency to weed out impostors.

[nedz]

There are a number of simple, cheap, nonmagical counters to invisibility that intelligent creatures can take. Dangling strings from the ceiling with beads on them, and having them happen every few inches comes to mind pretty quick. Especially if they're all long enough to reach the floor.

You could also cover the floor with flour or something. Invisibility doesn't stop you from leaving footprints.

Snow, sand, even wet weather can all cause foot prints to be left.

But the real killer to invisibility is it's short duration.

[Fooliscious]

Most of those options only work if your baddies are entrenched somewhere and have time/free access/movement etc. That generally doesn't happen in my games. Scent generally only works out to 30 feet if I recall.

In theory its easy. In practice? PC's find ways to abuse invis that borders on obsessive.

[Barstro]

Obvious response. (http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/601/623/361.gif)


And I thought the obvious response was;
Homer: Oh, yeah, what are you gonna do? Release the dogs? Or the bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark, they shoot bees at you?

Not that I'm a DM, but I would rule that invisibility makes you more likely to be heard, since you have a bit of trouble putting your feet in just the right spot to stay quiet. That's assuming I'd even allow someone in armor on a stone floor to be anything other than alarmingly noisy in the first place.

In combat, people might be so distracted that they do not notice an invisible person. Outside of combat; invisibility itself shouldn't be too damaging. I expect most BBEG to have decent ability (in some way, shape, or form) of detecting invisibility. They got to be BB by surviving dangers for a long time. If they are E, then they probably survived assassination attempts by some of their "friends", by some means beyond luck. The G part is just chromosomal.

[Ravens_cry]

Snow, sand, even wet weather can all cause foot prints to be left.

But the real killer to invisibility is it's short duration.
A minute per level is good if you use it in conjunction with an already good Stealth build. Hide in shadows normally and use it when you need to get across barriers that you can't sneak across mundanely. Oh, and for a way around footprint leaving, Fly wands should also be part of your repertoire. Doesn't stop the stringed beads, but those would be so annoying in typical use (imagine having to constantly untangle the strings in high traffic areas) that I imagine them only really seeing use at choke points.
Of course, sometimes the best stealth isn't stealth at all but a good Disguise check.
People beneath notice tend to not be noticed.:smallamused:
In the right campaign, Linguistics is an awesome skill. Not only can you understand people who might not want to be understood, but forging papers is an awesome skill in the right campaign.

[Zeromage1]

Do any of your other GM's nerf spells at all? Or do you think most players would get mad?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Do any of your other GM's nerf spells at all? Or do you think most players would get mad?Yes they do, but it's most often been a case where it's been kind of a reactionary, "but you forgot about this thing I never told you that you would now need to consider, so the spell has these problems all of a sudden."

Do I get angry about that? Meh. I'm a wizard, and normally if it can't be solved the one perfect way, I can solve it another way close to that.

[Zeromage1]

Well, I'm thinking about before my campaign starts to make a list of Wizard/cleric spells that need to be slightly nerfed and warn the players before hand. Like maybe tweak things like black tentacles A LITTLE...make a master list in my campaign notebook and make sure the players know ahead of time. I hate overpowered characters.

[Aotrs Commander]

Do any of your other GM's nerf spells at all? Or do you think most players would get mad?

Yes (or rather I errata some spells, sometimes up as well as down) or more over, simply not allow spells (e.g. Shivering Touch).

To say "ban" would be to give the impression that everything is allowed except when otherwise stated, which is the opposite of the way I run things. I run on the policy of "here is a ginormous list of the things you can have, compiled from all the source material we use; if it's not the list, you can't." This attitude is a hold-over from Rolemaster, in which you literally couldn't allow everything from every source book, since much of the material was mutally exclusive, so you picked and chose what you used on a case-by-case basis. I have thus carried the same on to everything else I run.

I am also largely the main rules-smith of the group, so generally even the other DMs tend to follow my lead on what we use or don't, so I have no problems from my players in that regard. (Especially as we tend to agree on what's ridiculous or not, regardless of which side of the screen we're on a the time.)

(There have even been occasions where I've errated a spell as a player, noting that it was really way too powerful and causing the DM far too much hassle (to be fair, the spell in question was from the very early 3rd party Relics & Rituals, the spells in which could be a little... Swingy in balance occasionally. But dammit, I bought that book we're gonna use it!)

[nedz]

A minute per level is good if you use it in conjunction with an already good Stealth build. Hide in shadows normally and use it when you need to get across barriers that you can't sneak across mundanely. Oh, and for a way around footprint leaving, Fly wands should also be part of your repertoire. Doesn't stop the stringed beads, but those would be so annoying in typical use (imagine having to constantly untangle the strings in high traffic areas) that I imagine them only really seeing use at choke points.
Of course, sometimes the best stealth isn't stealth at all but a good Disguise check.
People beneath notice tend to not be noticed.:smallamused:
In the right campaign, Linguistics is an awesome skill. Not only can you understand people who might not want to be understood, but forging papers is an awesome skill in the right campaign.

Yes exactly
Stealth skill > Invisibility spell, though the latter has it's uses.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Yes exactly
Stealth skill > Invisibility spell, though the latter has it's uses.I disagree, if only because without certain class abilities, stealth's usefullness is entirely dependent on the terrain and natural senses of the opponent. While certainly invisibility can be purged, it's not as though it's entirely defeated when there is an orc in the dark room.

[Fooliscious]

The Invis spell gives a flat +20 to stealth, wrecking any chance at hearing anything for the most part.

[RFLS]

I've said this before, but my explanation for the orbs is that they are volatile, low-sentience elementals created on the spot, that do nothing but kamikaze charge whoever you point at and transfer all their energy on impact. This explains how they can be "non-magical" but still scale in damage, why they persist in AMF and ignore SR, why they are ranged touch attacks instead of ranged attacks (you aren't throwing them), and why the energy or material dissipates upon impact (or missing.)

(High-pitched) "Geeeeeronimo!" *boom*

My players will thank you.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, I'm thinking about before my campaign starts to make a list of Wizard/cleric spells that need to be slightly nerfed and warn the players before hand. Like maybe tweak things like black tentacles A LITTLE...make a master list in my campaign notebook and make sure the players know ahead of time. I hate overpowered characters.

I think you should wait to see how your group uses magic, and just let them know that they should use their heads, but try not to be abusive. Most of the time it isn't an issue, and sometimes a GM will overreact (i.e. like when someone scores a x4 critical hit with a firearm, or gets a TWF sneak-attack routine off). Just let them know that you reserve the right to curb severe shenanigans, but at the same time try to keep some sense of perspective.

[Zeromage1]

I think you should wait to see how your group uses magic, and just let them know that they should use their heads, but try not to be abusive. Most of the time it isn't an issue, and sometimes a GM will overreact (i.e. like when someone scores a x4 critical hit with a firearm, or gets a TWF sneak-attack routine off). Just let them know that you reserve the right to curb severe shenanigans, but at the same time try to keep some sense of perspective.

I'm afraid not telling them which spells are tweaked beforehand would seem unfair. I can see someone saying "i wouldn't have taken that spell if I had known"

[Zeromage1]

Yes (or rather I errata some spells, sometimes up as well as down) or more over, simply not allow spells (e.g. Shivering Touch).

To say "ban" would be to give the impression that everything is allowed except when otherwise stated, which is the opposite of the way I run things. I run on the policy of "here is a ginormous list of the things you can have, compiled from all the source material we use; if it's not the list, you can't." This attitude is a hold-over from Rolemaster, in which you literally couldn't allow everything from every source book, since much of the material was mutally exclusive, so you picked and chose what you used on a case-by-case basis. I have thus carried the same on to everything else I run.

I am also largely the main rules-smith of the group, so generally even the other DMs tend to follow my lead on what we use or don't, so I have no problems from my players in that regard. (Especially as we tend to agree on what's ridiculous or not, regardless of which side of the screen we're on a the time.)

(There have even been occasions where I've errated a spell as a player, noting that it was really way too powerful and causing the DM far too much hassle (to be fair, the spell in question was from the very early 3rd party Relics & Rituals, the spells in which could be a little... Swingy in balance occasionally. But dammit, I bought that book we're gonna use it!)


Can you give me some examples of PF spells you've done this to?

[Zeromage1]

I'm thinking about minor tweaks. Like black tentacles maybe decreasing the radius to 10 feet, or the range to 50 feet, or the duration 1/2 round per level...

[Slipperychicken]

I'm afraid not telling them which spells are tweaked beforehand would seem unfair. I can see someone saying "i wouldn't have taken that spell if I had known"

If you nerf an option (be it a feat, class, skill, race, etc.) which someone has already taken, then let him retcon it.

[nedz]

I disagree, if only because without certain class abilities, stealth's usefullness is entirely dependent on the terrain and natural senses of the opponent. While certainly invisibility can be purged, it's not as though it's entirely defeated when there is an orc in the dark room.

Well you're right: it does depend upon those things. But invisibility has more holes, and it's usually the more dangerous opponents who can counter it.

YMMV depending upon the game I guess.

[Novawurmson]

Zeromage1, just as a heads-up: The forum rules discourage double-posting. If you have further thoughts on a subject, add them as an edit or wait for someone else to post.

[Aotrs Commander]

Can you give me some examples of PF spells you've done this to?

Ah yes, sorry, forgot for a moment this was PF (I use a system that is basically 3.5, but cribs a lot from PF, so I tend to look at both).

So technically, either none at all, or all of them, depending on perspective. Though I'd say the fact I still stick with 3.5 primarily tacitly says the latter.

Failing that, if they haven't changed much from 3.5, Disjunction (errata'd to only temporarily suppress, not destroy, magic item), Holy Word et al (errata'd to "save negates") and the Cure/Inflict line (boosted in power considerably, CLW/ILW is now 5+D8/level (max 5D8) for example.)

[Karoht]

The spells that annoy me the most and why.

Most spells that annoy me tend to meet one or more criteria:
-Bookkeeping/auditing. This is part of why I never enjoyed building a city or anything resembling it. Same thing with tracking armies and cohorts and equipment. Sometimes the polymorph/wildshape spells can be a bit book keeping heavy. IMO Pathfinder improved on this.
-Armies. I get that playing an army is a totally valid playstyle choice. However, I am of the opinion that after a certain amount of minions, the game either breaks down or bogs down. This impacts the other players at the table. They came to play their characters, not watch another player control his army for the day.
Cohorts are fine, but some days they push it a little.
Planar Binding occasionally pushes this a little.
-Spells that screw people even if they save. Staggered if you save? Boo. Stunned if you save? Double boo. Damage is fine, partial damage is fine, but being completely screwed even though you in theory resisted the effect? I don't ban them, but I definitely dislike them. Makes the saving throw (and all the work a player might put into beefing up their saves) feel like a waste of time.
-Debuffs which require fairly high magic to remove, yet are available on low CR creatures. Especially when these effects can happen at a point where WBL says the players can't afford removing the effect without selling everything they own.

That right there is most of it.
I don't ban these things at my table, but when they come up they tend to have impact and annoy myself and often a player or two.

[Azif13]

I recently started a campaign and I decided to play a Sorcerer. My first level spell was Color Spray. We're level 4 and almost all encounters we've found so far have been solved by casting it (I have 20 Cha, 21 at 4, and spell focus(illusion).

[Kid Jake]

Trained bees are a possibility, but they might not fit in most scenarios.


All I can think of is this. (http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtXuBN1Hvc&t=1m10s)

[Bhaakon]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned summoning spells. Aside from being powerful, they're a prime cause of PC role infringement, and quickly turn into a bookkeeping nightmare.

[Zeromage1]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned summoning spells. Aside from being powerful, they're a prime cause of PC role infringement, and quickly turn into a bookkeeping nightmare.


Yeah those can be extremely annoying, even if you're another player watching it and it's helping your team.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned summoning spells. Aside from being powerful, they're a prime cause of PC role infringement, and quickly turn into a bookkeeping nightmare.

Summon Earth Elemental -> Burrow through dungeon walls.

[Zeromage1]

I just don't like summoning spells because then the summoner's turn ends up lasting forever.

[Ravens_cry]

I've seen one player use them well, with the stats for every creature he could summon all written up ahead of time, and yes, it still dragged. Still, as a player, I was grateful for them, as even the weak critters made for good hit soaks and charge lane blockers.

[Novawurmson]

Can't believe I forgot: Death effects. They suck on both sides of the DM screen.

[Karoht]

Can't believe I forgot: Death effects. They suck on both sides of the DM screen.Insta-Death effects are very much not fun. Pay some money and take some downtime to fix.

In the Reign of Winter campaign, we often need the downtime to get things sorted out, so when a Death effect hits one of us, we generally aren't too worried unless we're low on money. Which that campaign starves you of from time to time.