How to help this player?

[killem2]

Ok, this player, is a level 6 Fighter (we call it a marksman for fluff) who uses the targeteer variant from dragon mag.

If you don't know what that is, it's basically a fighter, who gets bonus EWP, and got to trade a bonus fighter feat for a sniper ability (trade extra attacks for an increased threat range)

and level 2 warrior.

(so level 6 fighter/level 2 warrior)


Well, he really wanted to use guns. The DM allowed the rapid reload feat to apply to the dmg guns, but only dropping it to a move action from a standard action.

So unless he drops his rifle and uses his pistol he's got to use a move action or similar to reload, and thus breaking him from using his iteratives for his BAB.

Is there any items/spells/other classes that can help.


:smallfrown: No pathfinder :smallfrown:

[Maginomicon]

There are guns IIRC in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, so any feats that enhance those weapons (proficiencies, weapon focus, etc.) would help.

Personally, I don't use those in my main campaign. I use guns as a template for wands and dorjes with special restrictions. The end result is that I can convert a small subset of wands/dorjes into simple weapons that require no UMD/UPD check. I can disclose the full details if you like but you're probably better off with the DMG/FR versions because they're official sources (although those weapons suuuuuck).

Anywho, there's the Ghostly Reload spell and the Quick Loading weapon enhancement, but those as-written apply only to crossbows, so you'd have to get your GM's approval to let them apply to guns.

[bekeleven]

Apply crossbow WSAs to them and make them reload themselves?

[killem2]

Apply crossbow WSAs to them and make them reload themselves?

what is WSA?:smallconfused:

[Toliudar]

Perhaps the DM would consider allowing this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crossbow-mastery-combat) from Pathfinder to apply to guns?

Sorry, just saw the 'no pathfinder' part of your original post. It does seem like the obvious solution, though.

[holywhippet]

What about sourcing from d20 modern or Iron Heroes?

[killem2]

No go on the modern or the ghostly reload.

Isn't there a spell that gives you extra arms, but they can't be used for attacking?

We just need something to reload for him.

[Deaxsa]

No go on the modern or the ghostly reload.

Isn't there a spell that gives you extra arms, but they can't be used for attacking?

We just need something to reload for him.

unseen servant?

[Epsilon Rose]

Questions 5:

Is there a reason he's taken levels in warrior? Unless I've missed something, it seems to be an npc class with no features.
Is your DM at all open to homebrew? There are some classes and martial schools that could really help your friend?
How wedded to being mundane is your friend? something like arcane Archer, that let's your shots count for significantly more, might be helpful, as might something that gives you more actions.
Could a totemist bind or an aberrant feat (I think there's one that gives you a prehensile tale and I know there's one that gives you tentacles) help with reloading?
Carry lots of single shot guns, ala Meryl from trigun?

[Anxe]

WSA would be weapon special ability. I'd also consider the carrying of multiple rifles.

[killem2]

warrior was for bonus feats and keeping BAB nothing more.

[Eldest]

warrior was for bonus feats and keeping BAB nothing more.

Warrior gives no bonus feats, though.

[killem2]

:smallconfused:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm

That's the one I was using.

[Ralcos]

I think he means the Fighter.

And to answer the question, you could ask the DM to make a make a gun that auto-reloads every few rounds instead of having a lot of guns to carry around.

Edit: didnt know that you were using generic classes. carry on.

[killem2]

Edit: didnt know that you were using generic classes. carry on.

I honestly didn't realize there was more than one warrior lol :P

That unseen servant seems like the best solution. That works right?

[Wings of Peace]

If he crafts, purchases, or finds a fire-arm with the Aptitude property from Tome of Battle he could then take the Hand Crossbow Focus feat from Drow of the Underdark to reload the weapon for free.

Person however, I would recommend talking with the dm to make a custom feat that improves on the reloading situation. Anything more than a feat tax seems like too much.

[Epsilon Rose]

I honestly didn't realize there was more than one warrior lol :P

That unseen servant seems like the best solution. That works right?

Technically, you're not supposed to mix generic classes (like the version of warrior you're using) aren't supposed to be mixed with normal classes (like fighter).

[Pickford]

:smallconfused:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm

That's the one I was using.

Those are only for use when you aren't using the base classes. It's an entire system replacement, like prestige bards, rangers, and paladins. If you use them, you cut out other things by definition.

edit: bah interrupted.

[Wings of Peace]

Those are only for use when you aren't using the base classes. It's an entire system replacement, like prestige bards, rangers, and paladins. If you use them, you cut out other things by definition.

edit: bah interrupted.

I wouldn't make it sound so black and white. The most definitive language on that page says that the two "shouldn't" be mixed together not that they can't.

[bekeleven]

WSA would be weapon special ability. I'd also consider the carrying of multiple rifles.

Exactly. Magic Item Compendium has Quick-Loading, a +1 WSA which gives basically quick-draw (hand and light bows = free reload, heavy=move reload).

Houserule it to +2 and say that it stacks with the feat, meaning standard -> move -> free.

Money solves all problems.

[fluke1993]

While it never says they can't, I would add that they made the shouldn't about the most emphatic shouldn't they could. Pickford is right, generic classes are not intended to be used with base classes.

On a slightly more helpful note, assuming you don't mind skipping out on enchanted weapons, a couple of unseen servants would help with the iterative problem, but as he gets more itteratives, he is going to need more servants. 2 per itterative if he wants to keep the cycle going perpetually.

[Pickford]

I wouldn't make it sound so black and white. The most definitive language on that page says that the two "shouldn't" be mixed together not that they can't.

Fair enough, I do agree with the general precept that a group 'can' do whatever they want. I would say I don't think they ought to mix those things as it is not intended.

[Wings of Peace]

Fair enough, I do agree with the general precept that a group 'can' do whatever they want. I would say I don't think they ought to mix those things as it is not intended.

Definitely agree they shouldn't be mixed in most cases (on the grounds that Generic Warrior tends to be better than the fighter imo). Mainly nitpicked so that in case OP didn't read the links he'd know to consult his dm for their stance.

[Epsilon Rose]

Killem2, you never answered about the homebrew or the magic. That's probably where your best solution would come from, so it would be good to know.

[killem2]

Homebrew is out, magic is in, but it's basically gotta make sense with out any fluffing :(. I thought for sure Ghostly reload would work, but this is what he told me:

I am going to say no… all it does is pull the string back and allows the user to just put the bolt in… for the muskets, it would just pull the hammer back – and he would have to put the ammo in




For reference this is the player I'm dealing with.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307472

And for the record, he LOVES this class as it is, he loves the sniping ability of the marksman aka fighter with a name change. However, He does have anything else to do but take one shot and move.

The DM is more about getting him to just us pistols and drop them as free actions and get quick draw.

[Epsilon Rose]

Ah. I remember that.

You could try getting him to multiclass into Factotum or Swift blade, so he can get some extra actions each round. Factotum is probably the best for that.

Alternatively, you could get him to take levels in a casting class and go into arcane Archer. That way he could do cool things like imbue his bullets with fireball, so only getting a single shot a round won't be a problem. That said, you'll have to talk to the DM about modifying the prerequisites. At a minimum, you'll need to get the base race changed and switch from bows to guns. While you're at it, you might want to consider trying to get the spell casting requirements changed to work with warlock.

The biggest problem with these solutions is they actually require the player to think about his character's actions. The warlock-arcane archer would probably be the simplest to play (he just needs to pick what type of explosion he wants and he doesn't need to worry about running out), followed by a Factotum dip.

[AstralFire]

I gotta say, not allowing Quick Loading because it's crossbow specific when he's already bent on another point of similarity seems like your DM is being arbitrary and giving the player a hard time for no particular reason.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Things ive done to make Firearms usable in my campaign

1 Allow all crossbow feats and enchantments to be usable on firearms
2 Find a copy of the 2nd edition "Combat and Tactics" book.It has the best rules for weapons in D&D history and is easy to mod for 3rd ed.Just use the Flintlocks and the ignoring armor ability easily converts to hitting touch AC
3 Look into some PF stuff but dont get married to it as alot of it isnt that good [Looking at you Gunslinger]

and For the love of god drop the "not a fighter" class and let him just use the ACF for Fighters.Warrior is nothing but a crappy version of Fighter for non-PCs anyways

[Grod_The_Giant]

I am going to say no… all it does is pull the string back and allows the user to just put the bolt in… for the muskets, it would just pull the hammer back – and he would have to put the ammo in
If the normal version "only works for crossbows," ask if you can find/research a variant that "only works for guns"? (It does explicitly allow you to full attack, so I'm not sure what he's talking about there)

[killem2]

and For the love of god drop the "not a fighter" class and let him just use the ACF for Fighters.Warrior is nothing but a crappy version of Fighter for non-PCs anyways

I'm not sure what you mean, he is a level 6 fighter (we just call it marksman), and level 2 warrior for bonus feats. :smallconfused:



I gotta say, not allowing Quick Loading because it's crossbow specific when he's already bent on another point of similarity seems like your DM is being arbitrary and giving the player a hard time for no particular reason.

Its a fair point, but he's not actively trying to give a hard time, he just has things he allows and things he doesn't. I mean, he let met at ECL 8 buy a warbeast dire elephant and pick four of the feats.

He is letting me be a planar sheperd.

He allowed one of our paladins who had leadship as a bonus feat (dragon variant), to switch it for a mount from any plane that matches his alignment and let him have a sweet clockwork steed.

He let me be be a beguiler (creature), and incantrix, and he let another one of our people be a petal.

He's always all over the place.

[Pesimismrocks]

I'm not sure what you mean, he is a level 6 fighter (we just call it marksman), and level 2 warrior for bonus feats. :smallconfused: .
.

In 3.5 standard warriors are NPC classes that grant no bonus feats and nothing except BaB
The warrior you are talking about is part of a system overhaul if classes in unearthed arcana which are not supposed to be played with normal classes as they are far superior to their derivatives.

[killem2]

In 3.5 standard warriors are NPC classes that grant no bonus feats and nothing except BaB
The warrior you are talking about is part of a system overhaul if classes in unearthed arcana which are not supposed to be played with normal classes as they are far superior to their derivatives.

Well, we are using it as such, because the DM said it was fine.

So, he's a level 6 fighter level 2 warrior (UA version) :smallcool:.


(I also allow it, (in the sessions that I DM) because, I think they are cool)






What about this:

Take a level of Cleric (cloistered of course), Travel Devotion (yes I will sadly have to remind him to friggin use it), and perhaps a belt of battle.

All we really need to do, is get him extra move actions, to burn to reload.

Right? Then that would free up his full round attack options.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe a Quiver of Ehlonna, only fill it with guns? So instead of reloading guns you just have a *lot* of loaded guns you draw and drop, draw and drop, etc.?

[Averis Vol]

Gonna have to agree that an aptitude gun with hand crossbow focus is gonna be the only way this is working. 3.5 isn't designed for guns to actually be useful, they're a half assed set of rules which almost explicitly say that they need work.

Also seconding that your dm is being a little petty not allowing the more common options to also affect bows, seeing as he's allowing things like planar shepherd. (Not even really an issue of balance, it's more an issue of letting the PC's have fun.)

[killem2]

Gonna have to agree that an aptitude gun with hand crossbow focus is gonna be the only way this is working. 3.5 isn't designed for guns to actually be useful, they're a half assed set of rules which almost explicitly say that they need work.

Also seconding that your dm is being a little petty not allowing the more common options to also affect bows, seeing as he's allowing things like planar shepherd. (Not even really an issue of balance, it's more an issue of letting the PC's have fun.)

That's brillant! :)

[Averis Vol]

That's brillant! :)

Credit goes to wings of peace for that one, he brought it up last page, I was just seconding.