Sub levels, ACFs, Flaws and oh my.

[Ethelesin]

So, after a long while of searching, I finally got my hands on copies of both Races of the Wild and Unearthed Arcana, and as I sit here thumbing through both I am to put it mildly, overwhelmed. So I ask humbly of the people of this forum, would anyone sit down and clarify the following for me:

1. Substitute levels, how "exactly" do they work.
2. Flaws, is there anything to them other than "trade one penalty for a feat".
3. Alternative Class Features, as 1, how exactly do they work, and, second could you take an alternative class feature instead of a feature gained from a substitute level for example?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Substitution levels and Alternate Class Features are essentially the same. You give up a certain feature of a class (when you would normally grant it) for the listed benefits of the Sub Level or Alt Class Feature. You cannot trade away the same thing twice though, so if a Sub Level and Alt Class Feature trade away a Rogue's Evasion, you can't take both, for example. The only real difference between the two is Sub levels also have a Racial requirement (and usually trade away different things than Alt Class Features).

Flaws are very much simply take the penalty, get a Feat. The only limitation is if the DM allows them, you can only take 2 and they must be taken at level 1 (and thus the granted feats can only be taken at level 1).


EDIT: I forgot to say on Substitution Levels. You can take all, none or some of them, as you desire. When you gain the class level of a Substitution Level, you may choose to take it right then. If you don't, you loose your opportunity. Alt Class Features are the same, you only take the ones you want, when you gain the level the traded feature comes online.

[Curmudgeon]

1. Racial substitution levels are explained in Races of the Wild on pages 154-155. The important gotcha is that it replaces the full characteristics of the base class with whatever is listed for the sub. level. If you've chosen a variant class or used an ACF instead of the normal base class, then you can only use substitution levels where what you're swapping out still matches exactly the normal class features at the particular level. (Basically, you can't substitute out a class feature more than once.)

2. If you've got a canny DM, expect the flaw you pick to matter for your character more than a token amount. For instance, if you pick Shaky, don't complain if ranged combat occurs whenever it's tactically advantageous for your enemies.

3. ACFs generally swap features which appear at multiple levels for the class, as opposed to substitution levels being just at specified levels. You must take an ACF or not; you can't pick just some parts of an ACF the way you can choose 1-3 sub. levels. Otherwise, see #1.

[Greenish]

The difference between substitution levels and alternative class features is that the former can potentially change great many things (like HD, skill points, class skills, etc.) while the latter only swaps out a given class feature.

Also, many nifty things in UA (such as Wolf Totem Barbarian) are Variant Classes. Unlike sub levels or ACFs, if you take a variant class, you don't have the option not to swap features.

[Ethelesin]

So for example i could snatch the first level of Elf Wizard for the generalist wizardry feature, trade away the familiar class feature for the Arcane Reabsorption ACF (Dragon Magazine 348 page 81 iirc) and then not have to worry about the then useless natural link (su) gained at level 3 or the (in my opinion) gimped bonus feat selection at level 5 because those would just be "regular" wizard levels and not "Elf Wizard" levels?

"Edit" Wow, got ninjaed with replies that just create a few more questions. Variant classes? anyone mind giving me the details on that?

[OldTrees1]

@Ethelesin

Yes that is correct

Variant classes are found in Unearthed Arcana. They are like Alternate class features except that you can only use 1 of them per base class. (They can be altered with alternate class features as normal provided they still have what the alternate class feature trades away)

[Ethelesin]

So variant classes and substitute levels are mutually exclusive?

[Greenish]

So for example i could snatch the first level of Elf Wizard for the generalist wizardry feature, trade away the familiar class feature for the Arcane Reabsorption ACF (Dragon Magazine 348 page 81 iirc) and then not have to worry about the then useless natural link (su) gained at level 3 or the (in my opinion) gimped bonus feat selection at level 5 because those would just be "regular" wizard levels and not "Elf Wizard" levels?Yes, you can take just the sub levels you want and skip others.


"Edit" Wow, got ninjaed with replies that just create a few more questions. Variant classes? anyone mind giving me the details on that?Variant classes basically change the base class in the listed ways, so that the "natural" class features are different. UA variant classes can be seen here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm).


So to summarize:


Variant class changes the whole class.
Substitution level changes a given level of the class.
Alternative class feature changes a given feature of the class.

[OldTrees1]

So variant classes and substitute levels are mutually exclusive?

It is unclear.
One way to make them compatible is to ask for the substitution level to be treated as an alternate class feature.

Example
The Cloistered Cleric variant class has a d6 Hit Dice and 1/2 BAB progression (unlike the normal Cleric's d8 HD and 3/4 BAB). A Cleric subsitution level that does not change the normal Cleric HD(d8) or BAB(3/4) could be considered an alternate class feature for that level. The resulting level would use the Cloistered Cleric HD and BAB.

[Ethelesin]

@Oldtrees1 I can see how that makes sense yeah.

On a side note, the Arcane Reabsorption ACF allows you to retain a spell (or spell slot) that fails to take effect due to a targets SR by way of a spellcraft check. The thing is, (i know this is cheesy, still, im curious) despite being called "Arcane" Reabsorption, it never specifies that it only works for Arcane spells. What do you guys make of that? Would i be able to, in theory retain a "wasted" divine spell/spellslot in the same was as an arcane by way of this feature?

[OldTrees1]

If Arcane Reabsorption does not specify the type of spell it can work on, then the Arcane in its name must refer to the technique being developed from Arcane lore (aka "Arcane" was merely a flavorful name)

So yes in theory (provided you did not misread it, always double check things that sound exciting).

[Ethelesin]

Since im not entirely clear on the forum rules regarding divulging information that isn`t accesible from the SRD when describing DnD stuff im staying on the safe side. But as far as i can tell, no mention of it only being arcane spells/spellslots that can be reabsorbed, if anyone wants to take a look at this with me (would be much appreciated!) i can provide a link to a scribd.com page that has Dragon 348 in it.

[Greenish]

Mind, ACFs are class-specific, so even if you found a divine caster with Familiar (or whatever you trade for the trick), you couldn't just swap it.

[OldTrees1]

Just checked

Arcane Reabsorption does mention "reabsorb the Arcane energies you just spent" however it does not specify the spell cast needs to be arcane.

Conclusion
The author forgot to specify about multiclassing Divine/Arcane. The text seems to indicate that it might have been intended for Arcane only but the author might have just forgotten about multiclassing. The Rules as Written allow the retaining of Divine slots. Your Mileage May Vary if your DM does has a specific differentiation between Arcane and Divine energies)

[Ethelesin]

So basically, RAW has my back, nice. But if we go by RAI i may be in trouble? Cause y`know despite the forum repedeatly telling me "dont" i sorta have a thing for mystic theurge builds, and going elven generalist, and substituting my familiar for this as my arcane side entry? seems VERY tempting.

[Greenish]

So basically, RAW has my back, nice. But if we go by RAI i may be in trouble? Cause y`know despite the forum repedeatly telling me "dont" i sorta have a thing for mystic theurge builds, and going elven generalist, and substituting my familiar for this as my arcane side entry? seems VERY tempting.You'll have to run it by your DM, obviously. Though the assumed entry to MT means running out of spells is a much lesser worry than not doing anything (which is what happens if your spell fails to pierce SR, even if you reabsorb it).

[OldTrees1]

So basically, RAW has my back, nice. But if we go by RAI i may be in trouble? Cause y`know despite the forum repedeatly telling me "dont" i sorta have a thing for mystic theurge builds, and going elven generalist, and substituting my familiar for this as my arcane side entry? seems VERY tempting.

RAW has your back
RAI might be against you
Balance probably has your back (it is a minor boost and requires losing caster levels)
Your DM trumps all 3. But since most play with friends, I assume they will have your back

[Ethelesin]

Well, at this point in time, due to the unexpected amount of support this thread has gathered (im blown away, thanks guys this is helping me alot!) i might aswell explain what i need all this information for; i am statting out an OC of mine.

Suffice to say, i have alot of spare time and i write alot, and like a day or so ago a friend of mine asked me the "obvious" question about a favorite character of mine; "Whats his stats like" and with this in mind i`ve set out to recreate him as "accurately" as possible, and seeing as the build currently looks like this Wizard9/Ur-Priest1/Wizard+1/MT9. (Wich unless i botched my math completely, a distinct possibility, should make him a 19/19 caster with double 9s) im looking for more options by way of, feats, flaws, ACFs whatever to expand upon him.

Hes not exactly the social sort, and has basically this deeper attunement (read, Mary Sue) to magic and so the ACF makes alot of sense for him, just interested in if it works for his pilfered divine power too. The flaws, Sub levels and the ACF are just for accuracy, but i want him to be as RAW legal as possible, hence, the thread and call for help.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You need another level of Ur-Priest in there before you can take Mystic Theurge. You need 2nd level Divine spells.

[Ethelesin]

@MesiDoomstalker
"Facepalm" My bad, i forgot to mention i take Alternative Source Spell as my Wizard10 bonus feat. And that pretty much overs the whole 2nd level arcane/divine thing.

Anyways, thanks alot for all the help its really great that you guys would come swoop to my aid, if anyone would be interested in lending a hand with the build itself that`d be cool (mostly cherry picking feats here though, suggestions welcome) send me a PM but y`know if not then i guess this wraps up the thread. again, thanks ALOT for the support, peace out :smile: