Better multiclassing rules?

[AstralFire]

So, I just came up with this on a whim, wanted to see what people thought?


Prestige Classes which advance a base class' features are mutually exclusive with the benefits granted for multiclassing here. If a majority (more than half) of the levels in that Prestige Class improve a base class feature, you may choose to use these multiclass rules instead with that Prestige Class. If half or fewer, you must obey the Prestige Class' rules.
If a Prestige Class does not advance a base class' features in any significant way, then it follows normal multiclassing rules.
Your modified class level for any base class is equal to that class + half all your other class levels.
Use your modified class level to determine the progression of all features which you already possess and are granted at a steady, discernable pattern by that class. This includes features like a Fighter's bonus feats*, a Bard's Inspire Courage, spells per day, or a Rogue's sneak attack, but does not grant you entirely new features which you didn't already possess, including a new type of Bard Song, a Monk's Abundant Step (if you did not already possess it), a Ranger's Animal Companion (if you did not already possess it) or new spells known.
Subset of the above: You determine base Power Points per day by choosing one manifesting class and using your modified class level. If the result is halfway between two levels, average the value. You continue to gain bonus power points from all your manifesting classes separately.
A level in any class which grants spells or powers known increase your caster level and manifester level for all such classes by 1. (This makes the Ranger and Paladin gain full caster level rather than half.)
A level in any other class increases your caster level and manifester level for all such classes by 0.5.
By default, all psionic classes count as Manifester classes for the previous two entries.
Initiator Classes continue to use their own multiclassing rules; however, Martial Study and Martial Stance feats gained prior to Initiator Class Levels will use the Initiator Class maneuvers readied and recovery mechanic of the first Initiator Class later gained.


* I ain't sure about this one. Thoughts?

Any obvious big problems with this? At a general level, ignoring the question of specific rules abuses for the moment.

I foresee the Psychic Warrior possibly being a problem, though I think it might be better just to cut it out since it's basically a base class approach to the Eldritch Knight/Mystic Theurge problem, rather than really representing something iconic and unique like the Ranger or Paladin.

[OldTrees1]

So remove multiclassing prestige classes (advancing class feature progression of 2 classes) and replaced it with advancing effective class level/cl/ml?

That would destroy all multiclassing that currently uses prestige classes since it removes the important part (class feature progression) and replaces it with bonuses to effective class level.

So a Rogue 5/Fighter 5/RogFtrPrC 10 would become a Rog 10/Ftr 10
Sneak Attack would drop from 15th level Rogue down to 10th level Rogue (since it is based on actual levels not effective class level)

Sure the new Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 would have a caster level of 20/20 but would be 5 levels behind the Wizard 5 / Cleric 5 /Mystic Theruge 10 (subpar build) in casting

In summary: It must progress class features(multiclass PrCs) or at least let them access higher class features(ToB).

[AstralFire]

So remove multiclassing prestige classes (advancing class feature progression of 2 classes) and replaced it with advancing effective class level/cl/ml?

That would destroy all multiclassing that currently uses prestige classes since it removes the important part (class feature progression) and replaces it with bonuses to effective class level.

So a Rogue 5/Fighter 5/RogFtrPrC 10 would become a Rog 10/Ftr 10
Sneak Attack would drop from 15th level Rogue down to 10th level Rogue (since it is based on actual levels not effective class level)

Assume for purposes of this discussion that things such as Sneak Attack, etc. which would be advanced through most PrCs and feats designed to encourage multiclassing, would be advanced in this way.

Vancian Casting's the big problem here, yes. Not sure how to simply give them additional spells.

[OldTrees1]

Assume for purposes of this discussion that things such as Sneak Attack, etc. which would be advanced through most PrCs and feats designed to encourage multiclassing, would be advanced in this way.

Ah, so which class features progress and which get forgotten? Currently multiclass prestige classes provide additional class features to make up for forgotten class features. So unless most class features are progressed, it is probably still weaker.

Disclaimer: I am still just thinking about 2 classes. More might be different.

[AstralFire]

Ah, so which class features progress and which get forgotten? Currently multiclass prestige classes provide additional class features to make up for forgotten class features. So unless most class features are progressed, it is probably still weaker.

Disclaimer: I am still just thinking about 2 classes. More might be different.

I didn't really want to list them all out. Off the top of my head, though, I'd say:

Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
Sneak Attack
Trap Sense
Smites per Day
Rages per Day/Greater Rage
Unarmed Damage/Ki Strike
Flurry of Blows
Monk AC and Speed Bonuses
Familiar level
Mount level
Animal Companion level
Wild Shape level
Progression of Bard Songs which the Bard already possesses
Bardic Lore

[OldTrees1]

So buff Barbarians, Bards and Paladins, nerf the rest (except Rogue which stays the same)

I am surprised Evasion is on the list since that does not improve by effecitive class level[Improved Evasion is a Rogue Special Ability option]. (But then neither did SA before your houserule)

[Psyren]

One outcome is that every caster ever now wants a Cloistered Cleric or Psychic Rogue dip for the skillpoints.

[OldTrees1]

One outcome is that every caster ever now wants a Cloistered Cleric or Psychic Rogue dip for the skillpoints.

Even at the lost level of spell progression?

[AstralFire]

One outcome is that every caster ever now wants a Cloistered Cleric or Psychic Rogue dip for the skillpoints.

Not worried about those, neither are allowed and are more the kind of specific issue I'm not looking for.

[Psyren]

Even at the lost level of spell progression?

The way I'm reading it there would be no lost progression - but even if I'm reading that part of it wron, the manifesters don't care since ML is their main concern. A Psyrogue 1/Shaper 2 under this system would have an Astral Construct just as powerful as that of a Shaper 3.

EDIT: I can see why you'd ban Psychic Rogue (it's effectively a multiclass) but why Cloistered Cleric?

[AstralFire]

The way I'm reading it there would be no lost progression - but even if I'm reading that part of it wron, the manifesters don't care since ML is their main concern. A Psyrogue 1/Shaper 2 under this system would have an Astral Construct just as powerful as that of a Shaper 3.

EDIT: I can see why you'd ban Psychic Rogue (it's effectively a multiclass) but why Cloistered Cleric?

They'd lose progression, just not a caster level. CC's banned for unrelated reasons.

[OldTrees1]

What is the goal of this houserule?

[Maginomicon]

Personally, in my 3.5 campaign I rip PF's multiclassing / favored class system and give everyone an extra favored class of their choice (on top of the favored class that they normally pick). Then I simply compound the XP penalty instead of adding it. That is, "80%" XP for the first multiclass penalty, "80%*80%" (64%) for the second multiclass penalty, and so on. That way, the first two picked classes are favored (and thus don't count towards multiclassing penalties), the third is the first selected class that isn't favored, the fourth reduces XP to 80% normal, the fifth to 64% normal, and so on. Most people aren't going to pick more than 5 classes anyway, and even so by the 3rd class they're probably dipping for only a level or two and thus are unaffected by multiclass penalties regardless (because none of the non-favored classes will be more than a single level apart).

[AstralFire]

What is the goal of this houserule?

I like tweaking the system to be a better system. Ideally, I'd like to finagle this into something that removes PrCs that exist to be nothing more than bland +1/1 of two classes, and penalizes dabbling into/out of casting significantly less. I consider the necessity of build planning for those elements to be a drawback.

[TuggyNE]

This has the potential to work really well, but the innumerable weird bits around the edges of the system are going to throw a lot of wrenches in it. For example, Legacy Champion, +1 CL/ML ioun stone, prayer bead of karma, Practiced Spellcaster, Archmage, and doubtless many others.

[OldTrees1]

I like tweaking the system to be a better system. Ideally, I'd like to finagle this into something that removes PrCs that exist to be nothing more than bland +1/1 of two classes, and penalizes dabbling into/out of casting significantly less. I consider the necessity of build planning for those elements to be a drawback.

Have it advance all class features (including spellcasting, bonus feats) but at Class Features = Class Level + 1/3 Non-Class Levels

Fighter 15
Rog 7/Ftr 8 = Rog 9(.67) & Ftr 10(.33) (weaker than what +1/+1 PrC do)
Rog 5/Ftr 5/Wiz 5 = Rog 8(.33) & Ftr 8(.33) & Wiz 8(.33) (slightly better than +1/+1 classes can do)
Rog 5/Wiz 10 = Rog 8(.33) & Wiz 11(.67)
Rog 1/Wiz 14 = Rog 5(.67) & Wiz 14(.33)

Then alter mundane classes so that they are less front heavy by adding more high level abilities.

[AstralFire]

This has the potential to work really well, but the innumerable weird bits around the edges of the system are going to throw a lot of wrenches in it. For example, Legacy Champion, +1 CL/ML ioun stone, prayer bead of karma, Practiced Spellcaster, Archmage, and doubtless many others.

Weird bits can be worried about later. I tend to dislike them in the first place, and it's unrealistic to try and make major changes to a core component and expect there not to be odd fallout at the edges. :smalltongue:

I'm thinking about granting a choice of an extra spell every so often (every other non-caster level?) but I'm not sure.

[Urpriest]

If you're going to use the term "effective caster level", it has to mean something different from "caster level", which means you need to define it. Otherwise, just use the term "caster level".

[TuggyNE]

Weird bits can be worried about later. I tend to dislike them in the first place, and it's unrealistic to try and make major changes to a core component and expect there not to be odd fallout at the edges. :smalltongue:

Normally, yes, but in a case like this, the weird bits are so common and so important that they deserve a very long hard look before just brushing them off.

[OldTrees1]

Normally, yes, but in a case like this, the weird bits are so common and so important that they deserve a very long hard look before just brushing them off.

Solution to those weird bits:
Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster: Ban or nerf
+1 cl effects: apply after cl calculation from multiclassing (if they still apply)

What else?

[TuggyNE]

+1 cl effects: apply after cl calculation from multiclassing (if they still apply)

How do you phrase that?

Also, Spellwarp Sniper, Swiftblade, and a whole lot of other PrCs that partially advance spellcasting and give non-casting features would need to be tweaked to keep them sane.

Most of these problems can likely be solved, of course, but not with simple "oh, well just use this broad guideline here and all will be well" glosses; they require a bit more thought, and there's a lot of them, probably more different types than I've thought of. Now, if the idea is to adopt this as a houserule for a group that can arrange for all classes and equipment and races to be checked before using and rewritten, it'd probably work, since you can be as sloppy as you like when you're hand-reviewing everything for five people, but if the idea is to make this usable in general not so much.

[Aotrs Commander]

Are you talking about just caster level or spellcaster class level?

The former means a Wiz 1/Fighter 10 would cast wizard spells as a 1st level wizard but with a caster level 6, the latter means the same would be casting spells as a 6th level wizard with a caster level of 6.

[OldTrees1]

How do you phrase that?

Also, Spellwarp Sniper, Swiftblade, and a whole lot of other PrCs that partially advance spellcasting and give non-casting features would need to be tweaked to keep them sane.

Most of these problems can likely be solved, of course, but not with simple "oh, well just use this broad guideline here and all will be well" glosses; they require a bit more thought, and there's a lot of them, probably more different types than I've thought of. Now, if the idea is to adopt this as a houserule for a group that can arrange for all classes and equipment and races to be checked before using and rewritten, it'd probably work, since you can be as sloppy as you like when you're hand-reviewing everything for five people, but if the idea is to make this usable in general not so much.

How would I phrase it?
Have effective caster level calculated based on levels in caster classes. "The effective caster level is/equals [equation using levels in caster classes]". This has 2 effects.
1) Since it is "calculated from" rather than "receiving a bonus from" it exists before any modifiers. (Same as Str exists before bonuses to Str)
2) Since it is not calculated from cl, +cl bonuses only affect the effective caster level rather than the components it is calculated from.

It is my understanding that dual progression PrCs (even +1/+0.5 classes) would be banned under this houserule. While their may still be some question about where the line between dual progression PrCs and single progression PrCs, I do not know of any other border conditions to worry about.

[AstralFire]

Okay, rather than banning, I took a mutual exclusivity approach and changed the above rules significantly. Better? Worse? Confusing?

@Aotrs: Originally the former, but I think the latter is a better approach.

[OldTrees1]

Looks fixed for non casters. You would want to advance spellcasting if you wish to maintain the status quo as far as balance is concerned.

[AstralFire]

Looks fixed for non casters. You would want to advance spellcasting if you wish to maintain the status quo as far as balance is concerned.

Spells Per Day and Power Points advance (allowing for augmentation/metamagic, as well) just not Spells Known. I feel like if Spells Known advance, then you should outright gain new class features as well, rather than merely advancing features already known.

I feel like this way encourages people to weave in caster class levels smoothly; it would for sure be problematic if someone went Sorcerer 1/Fighter 18/Sorcerer 1, though.

[OldTrees1]

Spells Per Day and Power Points advance (allowing for augmentation/metamagic, as well) just not Spells Known. I feel like if Spells Known advance, then you should outright gain new class features as well, rather than merely advancing features already known.

I feel like this way encourages people to weave in caster class levels smoothly; it would for sure be problematic if someone went Sorcerer 1/Fighter 18/Sorcerer 1, though.

Spells/Powers Known could use the ToB model
Sorcerer 1/Fighter 18/Sorcerer 1 would have the spells known that would have been gained at Sorcerer level 1 (4 0th, 2 1st) and at Sorcerer level 11 (1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th, 1 5th)

Classes without a Spells/Powers known could be a problem in comparison.

[AstralFire]

Mmm, could do that. Would need to make look-up tables for all the casting progressions, though (Spont. 9th Level, Prepared 9th Level, Duskblade, PalaRanger, Bard, UrPriest/Apostle of Peace, Holy Liberator - am I missing any?)