Why are wizards Tier 1

[kpumphre]

So I've been asked to become a wizard in my current game because that's what the group felt was missing. I volunteered to be the one to change since mine was more support role, entangling the bad guys and giving them -6 to strength, with my only magic out side of combat identifying magic items for free.

Now I read through the Tier system and I guess I can understand it but I can't see it. I'm creating a 5th level wizard, so 1 third level, 2 second level, 3 first level, and 4 0 level spells. I look at it and see a maximum of 10 spells per day, before taking in to account race or stats. I was suggested Elf with the racial substitution level for the +1 spell per class level giving me 2 level 3, 4 second level, and 5 first level spells = 15 spells plus any bonus from stats.

But I'm staring at this and seeing well in one day I can do up to 15 things that I have to prepare before hand, and once those are all used up. I have very limited skill points so I wont really be able to do anything else.

I'm looking through the spells and I'm not seeing it. I see a lot of buffs to other people, or negatives. But what am I supposed to do during combat shoot off 6 magic missiles? Just go through and buff other players till bad guys are all dead and it has all worn off in between then and the next combat?

Wizards are supposed to be able to do grand things, I just can't see it and I need to be fair to the party I said if they felt they needed a wizard (still not sure why they felt that way) that I would do it. But I need someone to explain to me what as a 5th level wizard I can do that is so grand to make it worth it. Cause I need to believe in the character a little bit.

Warlocks are what I know best which are limited in what they can do, but by god they do it well. Shatter at will is so nice, and keep blasting no matter how many combats in one day. I just need this pitched to me.

[Greenish]

You, my friend, are obviously in need of a Wizard Handbook! Luckily, there are several of those. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) how you foresee everything, here's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) how you play nice with others, and here's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wizards'_Handbook_by_Dictum_Mortuum_(3.5e_Optimize d_Character_Build)), well, one more.

Those should get you started on the Arcane Arts.

[Karnith]

And, for completion's sake, the Why Each Class Is In Its Tier thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269440) also has a pretty good explanation for why the Wizard class is tier 1.

[eggynack]

Have you checked out Treantmonk's guide to wizards (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876)? It's pretty much the main resource we have on such things. Anyway, the main point is that each of those spells is often extraordinarily powerful, completely altering the face of a given encounter or situation. Imagine shooting something like color spray at a group of enemies, maybe taking them out for a round, or maybe the whole encounter. Consider the potential of something like alter self or web, allowing you utility in most situations, or splitting up an entire encounter respectively. Imagine stinking cloud or sleet storm's effect on some monsters, or consider the potential value of something as simple as fly, or haste. It's a lot of stuff.

[AstralFire]

First of all, you're not really at the level yet where Wizards play God all the time, though you're almost at the cusp of it. (Level 6 or 7).

Second of all, yeah, pretty much. Your power is less about how much you can bring to bear to directly destroy someone in a personal confrontation, and more about how you can meticulously prepare for a variety of circumstances and shape a battlefield. Psionics or being a Druid is really better for bringing the hurt spontaneously.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8043#msg8043 <--- should help.

[TETanglebrooke]

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876

That will tell you everything you need to know, but the biggest things are

1) Wizards are back loaded, meaning the get really good at later levels.
2) Dealing damage is one of the worst things you could use your turn doing in combat.
3) Wizards are really hard for new players to run.

Your fighter can hurt your opponents, your rogue can hurt them a lot, your wizard can stop them completely and render them helpless.

[AstralFire]

I like how, as a community, our response to this kind of question has become nearly automatic.

[KillianHawkeye]

The point of the tier system is that it ranks classes according to versatility. So, yeah, even though spells per day are limited, you can prepare a completely different set tomorrow, especially since the Wizard has no limit on the number of spells they can learn. Also, the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is one of the most versatile in the game, capable of blasting or buffing or controlling, charming or shapechanging, flying or teleporting, and it has loads of entirely utilitarian spells such as Tenser's floating disk or unseen servant.

The actual problem you are seeing is that you are only level 5, and magic is not as all-powerful as you were expecting yet. At your current level, you're actually the closest to equal with other classes as you're probably going to get. At lower levels, you depend on the Fighters and Clerics to get you through the day, but in just a few more levels you will start seeing the power you've imagined.

EDIT: Holy leaping ninjas! :smalleek:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A well prepared wizard should never find himself in a situation or against an obstacle that he doesn't have a means of overcoming.

Additionally, it's possible to build a wizard to fill any one of the party roles, without hindering his ability to be the party's wizard.

Finally, he's capable of performing combos that just break the game and outright win, regardless of what he's facing, especially in the higher levels.


Classes that can accomplish the third one plus either of the first two are Tier 2. Classes that can accomplish the first two (maybe not any party role, but two roles simultaneously) are Tier 3.

[kpumphre]

2) Dealing damage is one of the worst things you could use your turn doing in combat.


So what should I be doing during combat? I've been playing for years but never as a true magic user

[eggynack]

I like how, as a community, our response to this kind of question has become nearly automatic.
Yeah, this stuff comes up a lot, and the answer is pretty basic. I just can't give as sexy and individualized a response for wizards as I could for druids, and clerics are even worse. Thus, the answer is just, "Look at these here handbooks, and things other people have written on the topic, for they shall guide you to the truth." Fortunately, it's usually enough to get us somewhere, and then more questions sometimes come, and those can merit unique answers, and then someone asks how wizards could be tier one, when monks are all the way down at tier five, and someone suggests an arena fight, and things go horribly wrong. It'll be a good run until that point though.

[Karnith]

I like how, as a community, our response to this kind of question has become nearly automatic.
Well, it does tend to come up. A lot.
Whether we want it to or not.
Now just wait for someone to start talking about how Wizards are actually really weak when you don't let them use splatbook cheese or Wish-loops. Then the fun will really start.

[Kennisiou]

One of the other things to remember is the tier list ranks not just on combat utility, but on how much the class gives you the tools to be useful in ANY situation. A wizard with the properly selected spells should never lack for a solution to a problem. Need to sneak? Invisibility + Fly is perfect hide and move silently unless there's someone with true seeing or see invisibility around. Need an answer to a social situation? Charm person or charm monster can both solve these kinds of encounters. A door is locked? Knock. Need to deal damage? Orb of energy. Necromantic minionmancy, simulacrums, gate and ice assassins can be used to make a makeshift army to singlehandedly win wars.

Meanwhile how many of these situations is a figher useful? Hide and move silently are cross-class and they have armor check penalties, so sneaking isn't happening. Unless you spec'd for intimidate you're not likely to handle social situations well. Locked door? You can bash it, but it's bound to draw attention. You need to singlehandedly create an army? Fighter doesn't really have tools to do that at all.

[KillianHawkeye]

2) Dealing damage is one of the worst things you could use your turn doing in combat.


So what should I be doing during combat? I've been playing for years but never as a true magic user

Find ways to win the battle without dealing damage. Control battlefield or control the enemies. Or take the opposite approach and buff your teammates. Either way, the point is that dealing damage is the Fighter's job. Your job is to make the Fighter's job easier.

[AstralFire]

Yeah, this stuff comes up a lot, and the answer is pretty basic. I just can't give as sexy and individualized a response for wizards as I could for druids, and clerics are even worse. Thus, the answer is just, "Look at these here handbooks, and things other people have written on the topic, for they shall guide you to the truth." Fortunately, it's usually enough to get us somewhere, and then more questions sometimes come, and those can merit unique answers, and then someone asks how wizards could be tier one, when monks are all the way down at tier five, and someone suggests an arena fight, and things go horribly wrong. It'll be a good run until that point though.

Pretty much. I'm not much of an optimizer compared to a lot around here, so I just google for handbooks after giving a few basic responses.


2) Dealing damage is one of the worst things you could use your turn doing in combat.


So what should I be doing during combat? I've been playing for years but never as a true magic user

Debuffing enemies, buffing friends, controlling access to terrain, creating walls or clouds, etc. Without major optimization to that end, Wizard is a strong class that is very ill-suited to direct damage.


Well, it does tend to come up. A lot.
Whether we want it to or not.
Now just wait for someone to start talking about how Wizards are actually really weak when you don't let them use splatbook cheese or Wish-loops. Then the fun will really start.

I've been watching this stuff since 2000, I don't even get directly involved in that stuff anymore if I can help it. It's just too old-hat at this point.

[kpumphre]

Well, it does tend to come up. A lot.
Whether we want it to or not.
Now just wait for someone to start talking about how Wizards are actually really weak when you don't let them use splatbook cheese or Wish-loops. Then the fun will really start.

See that's been my opinion that they are weak (most games I played in have gone up to level 12 max) because they have a limit on what they can do but a fighter can swing his sword as many times as he needs to and a rouge can keep talking his way out of the situation. I know that wizards have some spells to do the same thing. I just don't know what to do with it. A lot of the guides talk about them as high level,but lower level what am I supposed to do?

[eggynack]

See that's been my opinion that they are weak (most games I played in have gone up to level 12 max) because they have a limit on what they can do but a fighter can swing his sword as many times as he needs to and a rouge can keep talking his way out of the situation. I know that wizards have some spells to do the same thing. I just don't know what to do with it. A lot of the guides talk about them as high level,but lower level what am I supposed to do?
Didya check out that treantmonk handbook? It covers the low level stuff pretty well. Just ask yourself, what can't you do with silent image? Then, ask yourself, what can't you do with a swung sword? Compare and contrast the two lists of things, and it should reveal some stuff about the game.

[kpumphre]

Debuffing enemies, buffing friends, controlling access to terrain, creating walls or clouds, etc. Without major optimization to that end, Wizard is a strong class that is very ill-suited to direct damage.



MY DFA was all ready debuffing and controlling the battlefield. -6 to the bad guy str, and keeping them all entangled.

[Nerd-o-rama]

2) Dealing damage is one of the worst things you could use your turn doing in combat.


So what should I be doing during combat? I've been playing for years but never as a true magic user

At your current level, mostly making yourself or your allies unhittable with buffs like Mirror Image, Fly, and Blur, negating enemy combatants with Save-or-Suck spells like Glitterdust, Shivering Touch, or Blindness, or negating encounters entirely with spells like Rope Trick, Invisibility, or Fly (again). Even Color Spray at this level is still a respectable "Save or lose your turn" against a group of enemies with mediocre Will saves.

Basically what you want to do as a 5th level combat-wombat Wizard is either buff the crap out of your party (which uses up your spells pretty fast, I admit) or find the baddest enemy dude in the encounter and lock down his ability to act or deal damage while your plebeian meatshields party takes out his friends the old-fashioned way.

You'll have to wait for higher levels for the points where Wizards start one-shotting everything and treating the Divination school like a Game Genie. Unless you're a kobold with a Candle of Invocation and a death wish, anyway.

[Eldariel]

Gray Elf Wizard would get you up to 20 Int on level 1. This would be 21 on this level, and you can afford a +2 item too by now. This gives you two bonus spells on levels 1 and 2, and one on level 3. Thus your whole spell load would be:
Level 3: 2
Level 2: 4
Level 1: 5

Now, that's not all. If you go Elf Generalist [Races of the Wild], you get one more spell on your highest level This would put you at 3/4/5 (we're ignoring Cantrips for now).. While it's kinda broken, Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) would stack with Elf Generalist for extra spell on each level but that might be a bit too much.

Alternatively, you can specialize (Conjuration, Transmutation or Divination are the best options) and get bonus spells on all levels for 3/5/6 slots total.


And yeah, it's a low level game so you definitely want bonus slots. Hell, it might be worth it to be Middle-Aged to start with (+1 all mentals, -1 all physicals), which would get you to 24 Int, which grants you another bonus 3rd level slot.

Now, remember, on average you don't need more than 1-2 spells per encounter. Sure, you won't spam Shatter all day but you do have pretty good precision solutions in spells like Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Slow, Haste, Ray of Stupidity [Spell Compendium], Grease & of course, backup like Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image (insanely useful against mindless enemies, quite useful in general) and maybe even Color Spray (see the Handbooks for details on which spells are awesome). All of these spells work against a wide variety of opponents and many are capable of defeating even multiple opponents at a single casting. When you're looking at 7-8 level 2-3 spells, well, suffice to say you'll be more than fine most days.

Further, to enhance your endurance you want some scrolls on your person (spells you don't usually need but that are insanely good or crucial sometimes, and ones that don't need high save DC or caster level to be efficient; Wind Wall, Magic Weapon, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion and such are good options) and for when you need to deal damage, a package of Alchemist's Fires is pretty reasonable. It's a Touch Attack for effectively 2d6, good for mopping up. You can even take Craft: Alchemy as a caster with massive Int-bonus and make them yourself if you feel like it. Final line of "stuff to do" is a Crossbow or something similar.

[eggynack]

MY DFA was all ready debuffing and controlling the battlefield. -6 to the bad guy str, and keeping them all entangled.
It's a good ability, but that's one of the few things you can do. Wizards can do things that are completely different from that, and they can do things that are far more powerful than that, even at a reasonably low level.

[AstralFire]

See that's been my opinion that they are weak (most games I played in have gone up to level 12 max) because they have a limit on what they can do but a fighter can swing his sword as many times as he needs to and a rouge can keep talking his way out of the situation. I know that wizards have some spells to do the same thing. I just don't know what to do with it. A lot of the guides talk about them as high level,but lower level what am I supposed to do?

Well. Rope Trick allows you to hide the party safely for a significant amount of time. With Extend Spell, you can guarantee the party's safety overnight, and Extend Spell is one of the better metamagics in core, so it's worth taking. That's a pretty big deal.

Mirror Image and Blur are fantastic defensive buff spells, while Glitterdust significantly impairs most enemies on a commonly weak save at that level, as well as doubling as a good way to flush out invisible opponents should you face any.

Think laterally.

[13_CBS]

See that's been my opinion that they are weak (most games I played in have gone up to level 12 max) because they have a limit on what they can do but a fighter can swing his sword as many times as he needs to and a rouge can keep talking his way out of the situation.


While this is true, it is also true that (in combat at least) melee characters like Fighters and Sneak Attack Rogues are also in danger of losing Hit Points; Wizards may have limited spells, but Fighters and Rogues have limited HP. Because of this, Fighters and Rogues aren't as long-running as you might think.



I know that wizards have some spells to do the same thing. I just don't know what to do with it. A lot of the guides talk about them as high level,but lower level what am I supposed to do?

At lower levels...

Charm Person can help out in social situations.

Alter Self plus good knowledge of the various critters you can turn into in the game can be very flexible; you can get better at swimming, get flying, etc. At the very least, it's handy as a disguise spell.

Color Spray can neutralize large chunks of the enemy party, if not the entire enemy party, in one shot.

Enlarge Person is very useful for buffing the party Fighter.

The Summon Monster spells, even low-level ones, have their uses, often as expendable trap-triggerers.

Granted, playing a low-level Wizard still isn't easy; you really have to know your spells, what you're going up against, and how to use your spells. Wizards also benefit the most from you being good at planning.

[Greenish]

How many encounters do you normally run into in a single adventuring day? If your DM is inordinately fond of long gauntlets, wizards have to be quite stingy with their spells (at low levels), while duracel-bunny classes like, say, Crusader, Warlock, or DFA (Fighters and other front-liners without self-healing don't count) shine pretty bright.

But if there are less encounters (the standard guidelines expect 4/day), well, the theoretical possibility that you could run out of spells given time doesn't really make you any weaker in practise.

[Bucky]

Buy some scrolls and wands for emergencies. I can't stress that enough.

[kpumphre]

The most combats in a single day have been about three but they are all over in less than a minute. So the spells just seem to me like they will be wasted. Do I actually need to pay any attention in combat right now if I'm just buffing? wont it be better to get leadership at level 6 and have a wizard to he just cast buffs on people.

[kpumphre]

Buy some scrolls and wands for emergencies.

I've never used one before even when I had wands it always felt like was it really worth the cost of it to use. scrolls are one shot, seems like a waste of gold or xp if I make it my self

[SinsI]

The point of the tier system is that it ranks classes according to versatility. So, yeah, even though spells per day are limited, you can prepare a completely different set tomorrow, especially since the Wizard has no limit on the number of spells they can learn.

Money is a pretty hard limit. With 3rd level spells costing 675 gold, his 5th level Wizard with 9000 gp will have a pretty limited selection after taking into account other necessary equipment.

Same question arises for all other levels - if money is no problem wizard can have unlimited spell selection, but in that case a rogue can have unlimited spell selection too with his UMD.

Take a reserve feat so that you can do something outside casting 15 times a day.

[eggynack]

The most combats in a single day have been about three but they are all over in less than a minute. So the spells just seem to me like they will be wasted. Do I actually need to pay any attention in combat right now if I'm just buffing? wont it be better to get leadership at level 6 and have a wizard to he just cast buffs on people.
You only really need one or two spells to deal with a given encounter, because spells are crazy powerful like that. You shouldn't be casting one every round anyway. As for leadership, leadership is pretty much always the best option, no matter what, because it's a crazy feat. Kinda broken, and kinda not worth mentioning most of the time for that reason.

[MirddinEmris]

2) Dealing damage is one of the worst things you could use your turn doing in combat.


So what should I be doing during combat? I've been playing for years but never as a true magic user

In a combat you should cast 1-3 spells that completely alter the situation on-hand. Direct damage is bad because: a) it can be done by other party members without spending much resources b) it require to spend much more spells than other, more effective tactics.

For example - there are group of archers in a fortified position raining fire on your group and some mooks near you to slow down your movements and give archers time to kill your group. What Would Treantmonk Wizard Do? Cast on Obscuring Mist/Sleet Storm/Wind wall, so the archers can't shoot at your group, while you finishing the melee mooks and closing the distance to the archer's position.

One spell - completely different combat.

You should look at the spells and think about what can you do with them. Ignore damage spell completely (they have their uses, but they are mostly obvious) and look at the spell that shape battlefield and combat in what you want. Buffing spells also good - when our allies can attack twice as much (Haste on 5 level basically is this), it means that you can increase the whole damage output twofold, or when your party goes against evil creatures with mind-affecting abilities, you can protect them with just one spell (Protection from evil/Magic Circle against Evil), decreasing danger of your party fighter with his abysmal will save slaughtering your teammates. Debufing is also good, but a little more situational, yet Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion will turn combat against Big and Strong BBEG into crub-stomp battle.

You also posses unique abilities to help your allies outside of combat - Extended Rope Trick will allow your entire party to rest safely (at least on your levels) even inside zones of danger, like that dungeon you are clearing.

Being wizard is hard, the mistakes can get you a big punishment, because unlike cleric or druid you have much less survivability at low levels, but it's also a very rewarding for a smart and cautious player, because of many ways your spells can affect your game.

P.S. For an novice apprentice, i can advise going Dwarf and making your Con almost as high as your Int (14-16 before racial adjustment) to increase your survivability and looking into Reserve feats from Complete Mage so you'll have some all-day long options

[kpumphre]

Money is a pretty hard limit. With 3rd level spells costing 675 gold, his 5th level Wizard with 9000 gp will have a pretty limited selection after taking into account other necessary equipment.

Same question arises for all other levels - if money is no problem wizard can have unlimited spell selection, but in that case a rogue can have unlimited spell selection too with his UMD.

Money has been pretty sparse up to this point. right now I have 9k with a limit of no one item costing more than 2250gp

[Incanur]

Focused-specialist conjurers strike me as about the best build for the lower levels, but that can get pretty highly optimized. (Cloudy Conjuration is awesome here.) Generalist wizards have more issue early on, though they're still plenty powerful. Since you're level 5, you've got access to all sorts of potent spells. Haste rocks if your other party members like attacking. Fly almost never goes to waste, though be careful in very tight dungeons. Obscuring mist, fog cloud, and company let you control line of sight, protecting yourself and your party and splitting up enemies. That's just the beginning of what a 5th-level wizard can do. Honestly, casting haste and then plunking away with a crossbow would plenty in many encounters. Same goes for glitterdust.


Money has been pretty sparse up to this point. right now I have 9k with a limit of no one item costing more than 2250gp

That's exactly right for 5th level in a standard game. :smallsmile:

[ryu]

The most combats in a single day have been about three but they are all over in less than a minute. So the spells just seem to me like they will be wasted. Do I actually need to pay any attention in combat right now if I'm just buffing? wont it be better to get leadership at level 6 and have a wizard to he just cast buffs on people.

Buffing is a route you can take at low level. I prefer to be the guy who simply tells people no at that point. What do I mean? Battlefield control spells and mass debuffing are the name of the game at these levels. Think of it in terms like: So I can render how much of this encounter helpless with this spell?

A personal alternative I break out for campaigns starting at level one involves focused specializing conjuration, taking abrupt jaunt ACF to say no to multiple attacks per day, and using precocious apprentice to get fiery burst online early just in case we're likely to have a long day at any point. Was your build capable of being party tank, damage dealer, battlefield controller, AND debuffer from level one? That's what happens when you optimize wizard for low levels.

People have already thrown guides at you with plenty of tasty options. As for compared to what you could do before? This is when you're at your relative weakest point. Later on you literally shatter the fabric of reality on a whim using the almighty power of the wizard spell list.

[kpumphre]

You only really need one or two spells to deal with a given encounter, because spells are crazy powerful like that. You shouldn't be casting one every round anyway.

So what should I do during the other 4 rounds of combat? My group has a couple newbs who are playing fighters and a cleric so combat is a big chunk of our gaming time. It takes a while. So say I cast the obscuring mist and then sit back and wait while they go in and finish off the archers? that's going to take them a couple rounds. I just can't figure out what to have him doing the rest of the time

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, come to think of it, unless you have enough Rings of Wizardry to qualify as Bling of Wizardry, at this point you're going to want to budget your spells to a few at the start of combat (the first three rounds is probably a good suggestion, though obviously adapt to individual encounters) to tilt the battle in your favor and spend any subsequent turns picking off stragglers with your crossbow. If combats aren't lasting more than 5-10 rounds anyway this shouldn't be an issue.

[olentu]

So what should I do during the other 4 rounds of combat? My group has a couple newbs who are playing fighters and a cleric so combat is a big chunk of our gaming time. It takes a while. So say I cast the obscuring mist and then sit back and wait while they go in and finish off the archers? that's going to take them a couple rounds. I just can't figure out what to have him doing the rest of the time

Crossbow spam.

But if your problem is not having stuff to do during combat you could pick up a reserve feat for unlimited blasting fun times. Or you could see if you can change to a summoning focused build and run your minions around during combat.

[kpumphre]

We all ready have a druid doing summon nature ally every time and a rouge shooting arrows. I don't know fly just seems so limited when it last what 5 minutes?

[MirddinEmris]

The most combats in a single day have been about three but they are all over in less than a minute. So the spells just seem to me like they will be wasted. Do I actually need to pay any attention in combat right now if I'm just buffing? wont it be better to get leadership at level 6 and have a wizard to he just cast buffs on people.

Prepare spells that you can use outside of combat, like Fly (ignore most obstacles, can be used to obsolete flying archers), Shatter (it can be used to destroy many obstacles that you can't bypass, can be used for combat damage), Rope Trick (pocket dimension for resting), Clairvoyance (for scouting), Invisibility (also for scouting) etc.

[eggynack]

So what should I do during the other 4 rounds of combat? My group has a couple newbs who are playing fighters and a cleric so combat is a big chunk of our gaming time. It takes a while. So say I cast the obscuring mist and then sit back and wait while they go in and finish off the archers? that's going to take them a couple rounds. I just can't figure out what to have him doing the rest of the time
Probably a crossbow. That's pretty standard operating procedure for finishing off enemies who you've procured inevitable death for. Alternatively, pick up a reserve feat from complete mage, like fiery burst. That way, actions every round.

[MirddinEmris]

So what should I do during the other 4 rounds of combat? My group has a couple newbs who are playing fighters and a cleric so combat is a big chunk of our gaming time. It takes a while. So say I cast the obscuring mist and then sit back and wait while they go in and finish off the archers? that's going to take them a couple rounds. I just can't figure out what to have him doing the rest of the time

Like a said, use Reserve feats from Complete Mage if you want to do something every round of combat. Or just take a different class, like Warlock)

[Rebel7284]

Int elf Focused Specialist Conjurers with Abrupt Jaunt get enough spell slots to significantly change 4 encounters and immediate action teleportation int times a day to become nearly unhittable.

As people pointed out, you do need to plan and scroll access can be a problem.

[kpumphre]

No I have to be taking wizard because that is what the party asks for, I'm just trying to figure out what to play what they felt we needed when I don't really see a need for them.

ALACRITOUS COGITATION Could I use this and just have all my slots open for which ever spell I want to use?

[Incanur]

As an elf, a longbow become worthwhile if your Str is 10 or higher.

[TETanglebrooke]

Alchemical Items are also a godsend for low level wizards, especially if you work out a long range delivery method. There is a cantrip in the SpC that I believe will be able to help with that. Launch Item I think.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also, the answer to the original question is that Wizards can do literally anything and can do most things better than every other class (healing is the only obvious exception), given enough levels and the right spell selection.

The flaws they have are in endurance (although starting from level 3 they can easily control the number of encounters per day they have, and they only get more tricks as they level) and having to pick the right spells (which is why you have to play them very, very smart to get the most out of them. It's not a class for everyone).

[TETanglebrooke]

ALACRITOUS COGITATION Could I use this and just have all my slots open for which ever spell I want to use?

IT'S A TRAP!

[MirddinEmris]

No I have to be taking wizard because that is what the party asks for, I'm just trying to figure out what to play what they felt we needed when I don't really see a need for them.

ALACRITOUS COGITATION Could I use this and just have all my slots open for which ever spell I want to use?

First, ask them why exactly they want a wizard. If it's just for a magic artillery, there are better and ore simple classes for that. Second, there was tons of advices about reserve feats, look them up.

[kpumphre]

IT'S A TRAP!

ok why is it a trap?

Reserve feats seem they open some ideas.


I'm very careful when I have items that are limited uses per day. I feel like I'm going to waste it.

[Incanur]

Being a god wizard does take considerable skill. I've never seen a player do it, actually, though I had a necromancer, an unseen seer, and an ur-priest that made that made impressive use of their spells. However, even a caster who selects semi-random spells and casts them impulsively still contributes in my experience.

[TETanglebrooke]

Well, there are classes that are spontaneous casters, if you want to do that be one of those.

It's bad for wizards though because it turns all of their spells into full round actions, which means the effects won't start until the start of your next turn. That also means that anyone who hits you during that turn can disrupt your spell. You'll also be more tempted to be wasteful with your spells like that.

Edit: I forgot it was only usable 1/day, which makes it even worse because then you would want to leave one of your highest level slots opened to maybe be used for a lower level spell.

[eggynack]

ok why is it a trap?

It's likely a not-trap. Alacritous cogitation is a pretty powerful feat. Go for the rhetorical gusto.

[kpumphre]

Ok well thanks for the advice I'll try and work on getting an open mind. I'll be looking in to reserve feats.

[Greenish]

It's bad for wizards though because it turns all of their spells into full round actions, which means the effects won't start until the start of your next turn.You're confusing full round action with one round action. Full round action spell happens on the same round it's started at.

But since Alacritous Cogitation is 1/day, no, you shouldn't leave all of your slots open.

[TETanglebrooke]

Just use scribe scroll that you get for free for any spell that you don't know you'll need, any spell you do know you'll need should already be prepared.

[TETanglebrooke]

You're confusing full round action with one round action. Full round action spell happens on the same round it's started at.

But since Alacritous Cogitation is 1/day, no, you shouldn't leave all of your slots open.

"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Full-Round_Actions

[ScionoftheVoid]

Well, there are classes that are spontaneous casters, if you want to do that be one of those.

It's bad for wizards though because it turns all of their spells into full round actions, which means the effects won't start until the start of your next turn. That also means that anyone who hits you during that turn can disrupt your spell. You'll also be more tempted to be wasteful with your spells like that.

Edit: I forgot it was only usable 1/day, which makes it even worse because then you would want to leave one of your highest level slots opened to maybe be used for a lower level spell.

A full-round action ends on your turn, which doesn't give anyone any more opportunity to counter it than a standard action casting time. A one round action loops around to your next turn in the way you describe. Yes, this was not the most clear rule in the world.

[eggynack]

Just use scribe scroll that you get for free for any spell that you don't know you'll need, any spell you do know you'll need should already be prepared.
It's pretty difficult, sometimes, to know in advance exactly what you'll need, or even exactly what you won't necessarily need, and fit them into those two groups. Alacritous cogitation is pretty powerful on occasion, especially if you pack your book deep with spells. It's not like casting a spell spontaneously will spontaneously turn you into a sorcerer.

[ryu]

Ok well thanks for the advice I'll try and work on getting an open mind. I'll be looking in to reserve feats.

I also recognize the instinctual dislike of using your spells or the thought of wasting them. As such look up spontaneous divination and remember this simple mantra: A wizard who never casts his spells has wasted them far more than the one that used them all for some effect. He is basically a commoner with knowledge skills.

[Optimator]

I've never used one before even when I had wands it always felt like was it really worth the cost of it to use. scrolls are one shot, seems like a waste of gold or xp if I make it my self

Self-made scrolls are practically free, considering their great worth.

[TETanglebrooke]

A full-round action ends on your turn, which doesn't give anyone any more opportunity to counter it than a standard action casting time. A one round action loops around to your next turn in the way you describe. Yes, this was not the most clear rule in the world.

Cite it or you're wrong.


It's pretty difficult, sometimes, to know in advance exactly what you'll need, or even exactly what you won't necessarily need, and fit them into those two groups.

Not really. Count up how many ways you can use a spell, list them in order, then scribe scrolls of all the ones at the bottom and memorize the ones at the top.

[Deophaun]

As such look up spontaneous divination...
Generally overrated (unless you're cheesing for some Cleric divinations). Wizards don't have to fill all their spell slots at the start of the day. By leaving a few empty, they're always 15 minutes away from having the perfect spell. As the corner-case divinations that you'd need to spontaneously call upon are generally not used in time-sensitive situations, the feat doesn't do a whole lot.

[eggynack]

Not really. Count up how many ways you can use a spell, list them in order, then scribe scrolls of all the ones at the bottom and memorize the ones at the top.
That's a lot of scrolls you're scribing, to the point where the cost is no longer minor, and the effect still isn't really better. I'd probably rather just take the feat. It's not the best thing that can be done, but it's pretty powerful.

[MirddinEmris]

Generally overrated (unless you're cheesing for some Cleric divinations). Wizards don't have to fill all their spell slots at the start of the day. By leaving a few empty, they're always 15 minutes away from having the perfect spell. As the corner-case divinations that you'd need to spontaneously call upon are generally not used in time-sensitive situations, the feat doesn't do a whole lot.

Well, there are many useful divinations that has in-combat use, like Unluck. And there is a problem with leaving the slot open - it means that you wouldn't be able to use it in combat without preparation.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Cite it or you're wrong.

Hm, well, there's definitely a distinction between casting a spell with a casting time of one round (such as Sleep) and casting a spell as a full-round action (as a Sorcerer does using a standard action spell with a metamagic feat).


...If the spell's normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time, as described under Cast a Spell, page 143.)

Since the feat says full-round, rather than 1-round, I would group it with the sorcerer and bard's metamagic casting time and not with the likes of Summon Monster, but I can't seem to find a better quote.

EDIT: Right, okay, I was wondering why the entry on page 143 was worded as it was. There are no spells (in Core, at the very least) which can be cast as a full-round action (apart from the noted case of sorcerers and bards with metamagic), there's just 1-round casting times. A 1-round casting time uses a full-round action and goes off before your next turn. A full-round casting time, when one exists, has no such qualifier and goes off at the end of your the action used to cast it like any other spell.
EDIT 2: Rather, I assume it would go off at the end of the full-round action used to cast it rather than before your next turn because 1-round spells have a passage specifically stating they work like that and full-round spells aren't addressed in the same way. But we do know that they're not supposed to work in the same way, and there's nothing to suggest they'd need the extra time that 1-round spells need.

[TheIronGolem]

kpumphre:

The advice you've received so far is not wrong. However, there's something else that I think is worth pointing out here.

Your questions have generally been about what you "should" do, how you "should" play, how you "should" play a wizard because that's what the party "needs".

What you should be doing is what sounds fun to you. This may or may not align with 1)what the tactically and strategically optimal thing to do is and 2)what the other players think you should do. Do not worry about that. If your DM is even halfway competent, he'll be able to create adventures that appropriate challenge your party even if it doesn't have all the usual expected class types. I mention this because I'm getting the impression that you're being pressured to play a wizard, and to play it as the "artillery mage" that is commonly seen. If I'm wrong about that, disregard this.

In any case, I do advise you to first pick a theme or concept for your character (whatever class you play) that sounds fun to play, and then re-frame your question here in terms of how you can best express that concept. You will get tons of useful advice on how to do that.

[Greenish]

"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Full-Round_ActionsYes, that is the definition of 1 round casting time.

Alacritous Cogitation (and metamagic'ed sorcerer spells) specify that they take a full-round action to cast.

[kpumphre]

Couple questions to clear up

1. I can use a wand with no roll as long as I have the spell in my spell book correct?
2. How many spells should I have in my spell book at level 5?
3. How much does it cost to add more spells?
4. Magic compents to cast spells, like everlasting flame costs 50 gp, how do you deal with stuff like that?

[Pickford]

kpumphre:

See that's been my opinion that they are weak (most games I played in have gone up to level 12 max) because they have a limit on what they can do but a fighter can swing his sword as many times as he needs to and a rouge can keep talking his way out of the situation. I know that wizards have some spells to do the same thing. I just don't know what to do with it. A lot of the guides talk about them as high level,but lower level what am I supposed to do?


Perhaps a good place to start would be with two things:
1) What kind of wizard do you 'want' to be? (What's your vision of you being an effective teammate?)
2) What books do you have access to? If it's only convenient to work with the PHB, we can do that.

Boiled down, here's the wizard strengths and weaknesses
Strengths:
A wide variety of potential effects.

Weaknesses:
Limited use of any given effect.

I think, based on your comments about being able to debuff all day, you're getting hung up on the limited uses per day. Since you haven't said what race you're picking, or that you want to be a specialist, I'll be working off the baseline of human, regular wizard (No ACFs) and see if we can work out something with an easy theme.

Assuming starting int of 18, and possibly a +2 enhancement item for 20, you can prepare these number of spells each day (this could be more, but let's keep expectations low):
0th - 4; 1st - 5; 2nd - 3; 3rd - 2
And assuming only base spells known (remember, this can be increased by spending some money and time):
0th - all; 1st - 9; 2nd - 4; 3rd - 2

So...limited options right? Well, those can be supplemented:
Scrolls, Wands, Staves.

You can scribe (or purchase) scrolls that aren't likely to be used often.
Wands are best for non-CL dependent effects you want to use regularly.
Staves, which work off your CL, are best for effects which actually benefit from this (typically something offensive).

By 5th level you can craft your own wand, if you want to. So it might be worth taking this feat and making something like a wand of Acid Arrow, and saving your spell slots for aoe effects, like web or mirror image.

There are alot of great utility spells, but it takes research (reading each and every one in the PHB that you can access is a good start) to know how you can have an impact.

[kpumphre]

kpumphre:



Perhaps a good place to start would be with two things:
1) What kind of wizard do you 'want' to be? (What's your vision of you being an effective teammate?)
2) What books do you have access to? If it's only convenient to work with the PHB, we can do that.



1. I don't know what types their are. I'm getting some idea now as I'm reading the guides but I've never even read the class description in my 8 years of playing 3.5
2. Basically any book but no dragon magazine

[MirddinEmris]

Couple questions to clear up

1. I can use a wand with no roll as long as I have the spell in my spell book correct?
2. How many spells should I have in my spell book at level 5?
3. How much does it cost to add more spells?
4. Magic compents to cast spells, like everlasting flame costs 50 gp, how do you deal with stuff like that?

1. Yes, you can use any spell-trigger item if you have level in class that has this spell on class list (even if this class cannot cast spells at this level, like ranger 1 is able to use wands of Cure Light Wounds despite not having caster level before 4th)
3. Buy a scroll and write it in a spellbook. Price-list for scrolls is in DMG
4. Components that doesn't have a price usually can be found in your magic pouch (it's by the rules) and those that have it...cast them if they worth it. Everlasting flame basically gives you an everburning torch (it's retail price is 120gp).

[TETanglebrooke]

Couple questions to clear up

1. I can use a wand with no roll as long as I have the spell in my spell book correct?
No, it just has to be on your list and not from a prohibited school. You can use a scroll/wand of fireball even if you never learned it but haven't banned evocation.


2. How many spells should I have in my spell book at level 5? 3+int Mod at first level then two more automatically every level up. You know all of the cantrips and you can scribe more spells from scrolls, so it really depends.


3. How much does it cost to add more spells? (100gp[magic ink] + 1 page in your spell book + 1 day) per spell level.


4. Magic compents to cast spells, like everlasting flame costs 50 gp, how do you deal with stuff like that? For continual flame, before you cast it you have to go find, possibly buy, a ruby of at least 50gp value. Material Components get used up when you cast the spell and can't be used again (such as in continual flame) but arcane focuses do not (magic jar for instance) but you still have to get the focus first.

[Greenish]

Couple questions to clear up

1. I can use a wand with no roll as long as I have the spell in my spell book correct?
2. How many spells should I have in my spell book at level 5?
3. How much does it cost to add more spells?
4. Magic compents to cast spells, like everlasting flame costs 50 gp, how do you deal with stuff like that?1. You can use spells that are on the Wizard spell list without rolling for UMD, whether said spells are in your spellbook or not.
2. As many as you can afford (without totally neglecting other important gear).
3. 100 gp per spell level (cantrips also take 100 gp) for writing it down. You need access to the spell to write it to your spellbook, either from the spellbook of another wizard, or from a scroll. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings) for details.
4. You buy the components that cost money (a spell component pouch contains all components with negligible money). A kind DM might let you say you buy spell components worth of X gp, but that'd be a houserule.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Couple questions to clear up

1. I can use a wand with no roll as long as I have the spell in my spell book correct?
2. How many spells should I have in my spell book at level 5?
3. How much does it cost to add more spells?
4. Magic compents to cast spells, like everlasting flame costs 50 gp, how do you deal with stuff like that?

1) You can use a wand with no roll as long as it's a Sorcerer/Wizard spell at all, in fact.
2) I honestly have not played enough Wizards to be able to tell you. You can probably afford to spend at least 2k of your starting wealth on scribing spells since you don't need to buy a magical weapon, though.
3) Comprehensive Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings)


Materials and Costs

Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.

Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.


In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.

You can also copy off of purchased or acquired Scrolls (only recommended for first-level spells unless it's a rare spell that no other wizard in the area happens to have written down).

4) Most DMs who like some verisimilitude will tell you to buy expensive material components at Ye Olde Wizard Shoppe in town and then not worry about where you're carrying them because no one does that for anything in D&D. Lazy DMs will just let you subtract the appropriate amount of gold from your pockets whenever you cast the spell.

[ryu]

Generally overrated (unless you're cheesing for some Cleric divinations). Wizards don't have to fill all their spell slots at the start of the day. By leaving a few empty, they're always 15 minutes away from having the perfect spell. As the corner-case divinations that you'd need to spontaneously call upon are generally not used in time-sensitive situations, the feat doesn't do a whole lot.

You don't seem to realize why this feat is good. All those leftover spells that didn't have a use for today? Just before setting up camp for the night in your rope trick they're all divinations that will help you plan for tomorrow. Thus no wasted slots. EVER.

[Greenish]

For the record, Spontaneous Divination is an ACF (from Complete Champion), not a feat.

[TETanglebrooke]

*snip*

Okay, I see where you're coming from. That is really confusingly worded.

That makes the feat slightly better, but scrolls still trump it. Gold is cheaper than feats are. There will also be many days when you'd just fill that slot with what you would have prepared there anyway and n that case you're just wasting a feat and actions for the day.

My list for prioritization is a bit over simplified, but it really is just a common sense type thing.

Read your spells, know what they do, prepare intelligently and you will never have problems.

[eggynack]

For the record, Spontaneous Divination is an ACF (from Complete Champion), not a feat.
I guess, except for the fact that spontaneous divination replaces the wizard's feats, and that the lack of future feats makes PrC'ing out even more of a no brainer than usual. You end up with an ACF that's basically a feat, though I suppose it removes your ability to trade your feats out again. Still, those usages would basically just be different uses of the same feat.

[ryu]

For the record, Spontaneous Divination is an ACF (from Complete Champion), not a feat.

It mas as well be. It goes where I put a wizard bonus feat as I level up, and the only requirement is giving up the bonus and that I'm a particular level of wizard progression. I mean granted I can't chaos shuffle it, but it's not significantly different in any other way.

[kpumphre]

Do wizards get air spells?

[Greenish]

I put the correction there because it might frustrate someone to look for a feat that doesn't exist (from, say, DnDtools).

And since we're laboring on the obvious, ACF is different from a feat in that other classes can't take it. :smallamused:

[eggynack]

Do wizards get air spells?
Sure, I don't see why not. Gust of wind and wind wall are two that I can think of offhand, and there are definitely others.

[MirddinEmris]

Do wizards get air spells?

Ah, i see you finally got to the reserve feats, young apprentice :). Yes, we they do.

This (http://dndtools.eu/spells/) is a good source for finding spells. You can select descriptor, school, class and level to find the one you need

[kpumphre]

Ok, wanted to make sure I saw the feat WIND-GUIDED ARROWS [RESERVE] that looked helpful

[Zanos]

Generally overrated (unless you're cheesing for some Cleric divinations). Wizards don't have to fill all their spell slots at the start of the day. By leaving a few empty, they're always 15 minutes away from having the perfect spell. As the corner-case divinations that you'd need to spontaneously call upon are generally not used in time-sensitive situations, the feat doesn't do a whole lot.
Spontaneous Alter Fortune would like a word. It also lets you qualify for spontaneous casting stuff with just wizard levels, such as versatile spellcaster.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ok, wanted to make sure I saw the feat WIND-GUIDED ARROWS [RESERVE] that looked helpful

A lot of spells will have descriptors in [Brackets] in their entry - things like [Evil] or [Fire]. When a feat or ability or whatever references those descriptors you wanna find spells that say the word in question inside [Brackets]. So, for example, Wind Wall is an [Air] spell.

[TETanglebrooke]

Wind wall is also a great spell and exactly the kind you should be looking to cast.

[eggynack]

Wind wall is also a great spell and exactly the kind you should be looking to cast.
It's better on druids though. It's always nice to have access to spontaneous conversion when you want to prep highly situational spells. Druids get all the best wind and air spells. Like, 10-15 of them, I think. I wonder how many I can name without checking my list. Lessee: Darrson's cooling breeze, gust of wind, favorable wind, wind's favor, wind wall, eye of the hurricane, boreal wind, control winds, sandstorm, passage of the shifting sands, and wingblast. Not bad. Ya gotta love random wind spells.

[Ramza00]

ALACRITOUS COGITATION Could I use this and just have all my slots open for which ever spell I want to use?

There is a much better feat called Uncanny Forethought. It does require spell mastery (which you can take as any hd releated feat such as levels 1, 3, 6, etc , or as a wizard bonus feat). Uncanny Forethought allows you to reserve a number of spell slots equal to your int modifier. You can than as a full round action and a loss of 2 caster level (practiced spellcaster fixes that) cast any spell you know spontaneously with that slot, or if you know that spell via spell mastery any spell you know as a standard action with no caster level loss.

Remember Full Round Actions (such as a sorcerer using metamagic, uncanny forethought, or a full attack) end during your turn and thus affect the battle immediately. Thus the only downside of full round actions is losing your move action (which if you are mounted is not a big deal.) 1 Round Actions (such as using summon monster) don't occur until the next round allowing your opponent to do stuff and possibly cause you to take enough damage to force a concentration check.

---------------

Elven Generalist Wizard 5/Paragnostic Apostle 1/Urban Savant 10/Paragnostic Apostle 4
(A Gandalf Knockoff)

Race Grey Elf (Can take elven substitution options, and you get +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Strength, –2 Constitution for ability modifiers.)

Assumming 32 Point Buy your starting stats after racials.
8 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 20 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha

Feats
1 Spell Mastery (SRD)
Flaw Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil book, but this is not an evil feat)
Flaw Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane)
3 Favored (League of Eyes) (Dungeonscape)
Wizard 5 Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion)
6 Wild Cohort (Online, Dire Eagle) or Leadership (if your DM allows it)
9 Open
12 Open
15 Open
18 Open


Main trick, you are a more spontaneous than a sorcerer. You can cast any divination spell spontaneously without repercussion. In addition you can reserve a total number of spell slots equal to your int modifier (thus 5 spell slots at level 5) and cast any spell you know as a full round action, if the spell is one you selected spell mastery on (you can choose any 5 1st level spell slots) you can do this spell as a standard action. For level 5 to 7 you use a heavy war horse as your mount, thus you can spellcast as a full round action and still get move actions. At level 7 use wild cohort to get a Dire Eagle as amount.

21 Int at Level 5. Thus your save dc for spells is 15+Spell Level

Base Level of Spells
1 3rd Level, 2 2nd Level, 3 3rd Level
Bonus Spells due to 21 Int
1 3rd Level, 1 2nd Level, 2 1st Level
Elven Wizard Generalist
1 3rd Level
Total Spells
3 3rd Level, 3 2nd Level, 5 1st Level

You prepare only 6 spells per day. (5 1st Level and 1 2nd Level). The rest you reserve and use Uncanny Forethought to cast spontaneously as a full round action.

Raven Familiar since it can always talk without spells or magic items. A Hummingbird familiar may be more optimal but a raven is more versatile.

Since you have practiced spellcaster wizard anyway, I recommend doing a custom weapon of legacy if your DM allows it. Here is a sample staff that would greatly enhance your initiative.

If your DM allows you to create your own weapon of legacy, you can create a really nice item that will greatly help you be more specialized. These weapons have costs, but they can be mitigated with other abilities such as feats or spells. If your DM lets you create your own weapon of legacy this is the maximium cost for the wizard (uses table 4-6 on page 186)

Level 20
-2 to all Skill Checks
-1 to all Saves
-2 to Caster Level
Lose 1 8th level Slot
59,500 GP Total Ritual Cost

Well practiced spellcaster fixes the caster level loss, you can live with the other costs.

What you get in return.

The Quarterstaff of Initiative, I Always Go First.

Starting Magic Item: A Magic Masterwork Quarterstaff that has a wand chamber in each side. This masterwork quarterstaff has been enchanted so each side is +1 magical.

A quarterstaff is used since it is a double weapon and you can enchant both sides with a weapon of legacy, but it is single weapon for the purposes of wielding it

Takes 2 Least slots upgrading +1 to a +2
Takes 1 Lesser slots upgrading a +2 to a 3
Takes 3 Lesser slots or 1 Greater slot slot upgrading a +3 to a +5

Least Abilities (you get a total of 6 of these from Level 5 to Level 10)
5 +1 Weapon Ability part 1 of 2
6 +1 Weapon Ability part 2 of 2 (Warning)
7 +1 Weapon Ability part 1 of 2
8 +1 Weapon Ability part 2 of 2 (Eager)
9 Protection from Evil 24/7
10 Open pick one Least Ability

So at level 10 you get
+1 Quarterstaff of Warning (Top)
+1 Quarterstaff of Eager (Bottom)
Granting a +7 to Initiative (Warning +5, Eager +2), Protection from Evil 24/7, and One Least Ability
In exchange for -1 to all skills, -1 to all saves, -1 to caster level, one less 3rd level spell, 3,500 gp

Lesser Abilities (you get a total of 6 of these from Levels 11 to 16)
11 Cunning (never flat footed)
12 Wolf’s Cunning (+5 to Initiative)
13 +1 Weapon Ability part 1 of 1 (Flaming)
14 +1 Weapon Ability part 1 of 1 (Upgrade Flaming to Burning, same effect as Flaming but you also get a +2 bonus to Initiative)
15 Shield 24/7
16 Protection from Arrows 24/7

So at level 15 you get
+1 Quarterstaff of Warning and Eager (Top)
+1 Quarterstaff of Burning (Bottom)
Granting a +14 to Initiative (Warning +5, Eager +2, Wolf’s Cunning +5, Burning +2), Protection from Evil 24/7, Shield 24/7, Protection from Arrows 24/7, and one Least Ability
In exchange for -2 to all skills, -1 to all saves, -2 to caster level, one less 5th level spell, 17,000 gp

Greater Abilities (You get a total of 4 of these from Levels 17 to 20
17 Open pick one Greater Ability
18 Open pick one Greater Ability
19 Open pick one Greater Ability
20 Open pick one Greater Ability
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11532.0


Now Urban Savant is awesome, it may not be the most optimal, but is one of the most versatile classes. Effectively it allows you to cause your DM to hand over the character sheet for most monsters due to knowledge checks. (note you can make an urban savvy check as a move action, and a full round action uncanny forethought during the same round, unless you use a magic item to give you an extra move action such as a belt of battle)

Why Urban Savant is so good.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10725.0

Don't forget to get some scrolls of ray of stupidity. Most animals have an int of 1 or 2. DM doesn't like your party so he used a dire tiger as a hard encounter (16 HD animal, CR 8), such a creature can seriously injure, knock out, or kill a single party member quite easily with a full attack (which it will get due to pounce), thankfully your scroll of ray of stupidity did 2 to 5 int damage, knocking the kitty unconscious, allowing you to obtain a very pretty cloak after you cut the kitty's head off :smallwink:

[Pickford]

1. I don't know what types their are. I'm getting some idea now as I'm reading the guides but I've never even read the class description in my 8 years of playing 3.5
2. Basically any book but no dragon magazine

Ok, I meant as a party role.

i.e.
Do you want to be more utility focused? (Oh, the bridge is out? Well I have a spell to get us across!)
A Blaster (a.k.a Burn my pretties!)
Crowd Control Expert (Throwing up walls, making life difficult for groups of enemies: Debuffing the enemy as a group)
Denialist ('No Big Bad Evil Guy, you can't do that, dispelled!')


You can mix and match these things as much as you want really. There's nothing to say you can't pick up Grease or Web or Solid Fog and consider that to be your panic button to block enemies, while otherwise focusing on utility or abjuration spells or blasting.

Some will rate others more highly (i.e. conceptually everyone can do damage, so why bother focusing on that when you get other tricks) but at the end of the day it's a question of what you consider important.

[Eldariel]

Generally overrated (unless you're cheesing for some Cleric divinations). Wizards don't have to fill all their spell slots at the start of the day. By leaving a few empty, they're always 15 minutes away from having the perfect spell. As the corner-case divinations that you'd need to spontaneously call upon are generally not used in time-sensitive situations, the feat doesn't do a whole lot.

It's great for stuff like See Invisibility when faced by Air Elemental/Invisible Stalker/etc., to keep True Strike & al. handy at all times and so on. Technically an alternative class feature, not a feat. Very useful anyways.


"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Full-Round_Actions

That tells you how long a spell with casting time entry "1 round" takes to cast. They take a full-round action and also your next turn. Spells that just take a full-round action take, well, full-round action. It's in there alongside full attacks and what have you.

This isn't spelled out for spells anywhere since it's basic action economy; you have one full-round action each turn that you can use on your turn to do stuff.


The most combats in a single day have been about three but they are all over in less than a minute. So the spells just seem to me like they will be wasted. Do I actually need to pay any attention in combat right now if I'm just buffing? wont it be better to get leadership at level 6 and have a wizard to he just cast buffs on people.

See now, if you only have three encounters per day maximum, the fact that Rogues/Fighters can swing a sword all day while you have a limited number of spells doesn't matter. Why? Well, naturally because you only need enough spells to fight those 3-4 encounters and a bit leftover (again, Scrolls & such can help there).

On level 1, Wizard needs to cast on average 1 first level spell to win an encounter. On this level, two level 2-3 spells should be enough most of the time. As such, you will never run out of spells as an Elf Generalist with 20-22 Int. In other words, you'll be able to win an encounter by making the enemy team useless and then you can help in clean-up with a weapon to conserve spell slots.


So what should I do during the other 4 rounds of combat? My group has a couple newbs who are playing fighters and a cleric so combat is a big chunk of our gaming time. It takes a while. So say I cast the obscuring mist and then sit back and wait while they go in and finish off the archers? that's going to take them a couple rounds. I just can't figure out what to have him doing the rest of the time

Alchemist's Fire is pretty good, as I mentioned earlier. Touch attack for decent damage. Light Crossbow is the ultimate fallback for Elves with under 10 Strength. Honestly though, on these levels I'd just have some all-day defensive buffs (Mage Armor, False Life), and have all the rest be Area of Effect or single target disabling spells (first level slots are kinda limited so use them for what they can do; Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Enlarge Person and such).

You'd be surprised how fast blind/immobile/nauseated/whatever enemies die. Cast Glitterdust/Web/Stinking Cloud (based on enemy's worst save; Knowledge-skills are godsent here) and enjoy the fireworks. Haste is a good party buff though I wouldn't bother with Mirror Images & al. most of the time as they're purely defensive.

A reserve feat can indeed work if you want the ability to be a Warlock and a Wizard, but if you don't have days where you need to beat up 6+ encounter, you don't need them. Still, no harm in picking one up.

[Deophaun]

You don't seem to realize why this feat is good. All those leftover spells that didn't have a use for today? Just before setting up camp for the night in your rope trick they're all divinations that will help you plan for tomorrow. Thus no wasted slots. EVER.
Except for pretty much all slots under level 5, when you get contact other plane. Scrying is useful if you know who you'll be facing, but its long casting time precludes spamming it after the sun goes down. It's a trick that generally doesn't come online until most campaigns are largely over and the DM wants you rolling new characters.

[Raezeman]

Is seem to notice that a lot of the concerns are about the fact that the wizard is a prepared caster. So have you thought about the sorcerer? i know you said 'has to be a wizard', but i seem to get the feeling that your group just needs an arcane caster and people have told you wizard is the better one, but sorcerer can get stuff done too!

If you ask me -->
The downside of the sorcerer compared to wizard are:
-access to new level of spells one character level later
-a lot less spells known
The upside of the sorcerer compared to wizard are:
-spontaneous casting, no more deciding beforehand
-more spells per day!

You can always have a look at warmage, beguiler and dread necromancer, that have the same spell level progression as the sorcerer, but know all spells of the appropriate level of their (albeit smaller more specialised) spell lists.

[TETanglebrooke]

Erm, technically Focused Specialists have the same number of spells/day as Sorcerer.

[Raezeman]

Erm, technically Focused Specialists have the same number of spells/day as Sorcerer.

really? huh, did not know that...

[Ramza00]

If you do the math, a specialist wizard has more high level spells per day on odd levels and equal number of high level spells on even levels due to the faster spell progression, you get your spells one class level earlier after all. A Focused specialist wizard has more high levels spells per day than a sorcerer at all times.

[Ansem]

Wizards are tier 1 for the sake that newbs can do shenanigans with them due to the simple fact that high lvl spells get insane, then again tier-list argumentation is highly amaturistic anyway and worshipped by those incapable of making productive characters on their own besides a 20 lvl base class, in that case wizards make a good chance of survival over the rest yes, because they can get through a lot more situations with their spells known, which in practise is kind of obsolete since you will never be able to prepare the right spells every time and specialization is more a cost than a virtue, but rewards the pain of a prepared caster. I would rank them tier 2 or perhaps 3 if I were to make my own class indexation on power basis.

[eggynack]

Wizards are tier 1 for the sake that newbs can do shenanigans with them due to the simple fact that high lvl spells get insane, then again tier-list argumentation is highly amaturistic anyway and worshipped by those incapable of making productive characters on their own besides a 20 lvl base class, in that case wizards make a good chance of survival over the rest yes.
I don't see why you have to be incredibly dismissive of a viewpoint you don't hold. You're not even properly representing it. Wizards are tier one because they can solve a massive variety of problems, and find those solutions over their entire career. If wizards only started their spell progression with 7th's at level 13, they wouldn't be tier one's. Wizards being tier one does not rely on shenanigans at all, but rather on spells with a high degree of versatility and power being used as intended. The shenanigans are definitely helpful, but they are not strictly necessary.

[Ansem]

I don't see why you have to be incredibly dismissive of a viewpoint you don't hold. You're not even properly representing it. Wizards are tier one because they can solve a massive variety of problems, and find those solutions over their entire career. If wizards only started their spell progression with 7th's at level 13, they wouldn't be tier one's. Wizards being tier one does not rely on shenanigans at all, but rather on spells with a high degree of versatility and power being used as intended. The shenanigans are definitely helpful, but they are not strictly necessary.

You answered your own question, in D&D efficiency always wins over versatility.

[eggynack]

You answered your own question, in D&D efficiency always wins over versatility.
And wizard spells are also highly efficient. They can often solve entire encounters and challenges in a single spell, and in a single standard action. As for your contention that wizards won't always prepare "the right spells", that becomes a lot less true when one spell can solve so many problems. Anyone can prepare the right spell if the right spell is almost always polymorph.

[Ansem]

And wizard spells are also highly efficient. They can often solve entire encounters and challenges in a single spell, and in a single standard action. As for your contention that wizards won't always prepare "the right spells", that becomes a lot less true when one spell can solve so many problems. Anyone can prepare the right spell if the right spell is almost always polymorph.
By your argumentation, every caster capable of Polymorph should be tier 1 then.

[eggynack]

By your argumentation, every caster capable of Polymorph should be tier 1 then.
It's just an example of a highly versatile spell that can be applied in an efficient manner to a large variety of circumstances. Polymorph isn't always the best solution, but it is often a good one, and that is often good enough. So, you prepare one or two of those, and when polymorph isn't the right choice, you have other options. Wizards are good because they have many polymorphs. However, it is notable that most classes with polymorph are tier one or tier two, with the outliers getting the spell later than normal.

[Ansem]

It's just an example of a highly versatile spell that can be applied in an efficient manner to a large variety of circumstances. Polymorph isn't always the best solution, but it is often a good one, and that is often good enough. So, you prepare one or two of those, and when polymorph isn't the right choice, you have other options. Wizards are good because they have many polymorphs. However, it is notable that most classes with polymorph are tier one or tier two, with the outliers getting the spell later than normal.

A Sorcerer is tier 1 and a Wizard would be tier 2 by your definition, with a Wizard being dependant on preparing it with less slots a day and a Sorcerer instantaneously casting it more times a day with more slots (4/5 v 6).

[Endarire]

Intro
As a newbie Wizard, your choice of spells and prestige classes and everything else can get overwhelming. Wizards, in general, are powerful because of their spells, but Wizards are also rewarded for mastering the game. Wizards are generally complex, but worth it.

Basics and Wizard Role
As a general guide, focus on casting spells from the Conjuration and Transmutation schools. These spells generally give you the most bang for your buck (or power for your spell slot).

As a Wizard, you're the Special Effects Department. At your level, you have enough of a budget (spell slots) to cast about 15 spells per day. This means you can afford to cast 2 or 3 spells per combat with the extra spells left over for misc. purposes.

Unlike a Dragonfire Adept, a Wizard need not be casting something every round to be effective. Also, as a Wizard, you're more... indirect with how your best abilities work.

Buffing
Consider haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), a level 3 Transmutation spell. It does little if you only cast it on yourself, but you said your Druid friend intends to summon a bunch of critters. Well, consider having Druid summon things, then cast haste on him, his summonlings, and your Fighter and Cleric friends. (Haste can affect 1 target per caster level.) Suddenly, your party becomes much more brutal!

Generally, buffs are spiffy ways to make your spell slots last longer. Since buffs at this level tend to last at least 5 rounds (and many last 5 minutes, 50 minutes, or even more!), then each of these spell slots can affect an entire fight, or more than one fight!

Buffs are also useful when not fighting. Consider fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm). This spell lasts 5 minutes at your level, but that's still quite some time! Each round is 6 seconds, meaning fly's 5 minute duration would last 50 rounds. It's useful for scouting, or escaping, or moving really fast, or moving in 3 dimensions, or moving fast underwater (since you need not flap your wings and fly gives you an additional movement speed of 60' flight).

Crowd Control
Consider also crowd control spells. Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) is but a level 1 Conjuration spell, but with a 5 round duration, that's basically a fight where a 10'x10' patch of ground/bridge (or an item) gets slippery, and those in the area need to make a Reflex save every round or fall over. If your GM lets you set the grease on fire (which is not officially stated in the spell description, but is a reasonable house rule), then that's even better!

Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm) is another crowd control spell; it's a level 2 Conjuration spell for Wizards. Web lasts a mighty 10 minutes per caster level and can act as a trap for multiple fights if done right. Even if someone in the web makes his save, he's still penalized and pretty much stuck unless he can teleport out or outright escape the web.

Summons
Summoned creatures are an extra layer of complexity. As a first-time Wizard (and especially with a summoning Druid in your party) you can safely ignore them until you feel ready. Summon monster spells get spiffy around summon monster V, and that requires at least 9 Wizard levels (or the equivalent). If you do decide to go the summoning focused route, read Treantmonk's Mastering the Malconvoker (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=289.0). If you're feeling overwhelmed already, again, I advise you hold off on learning about summoned creatures.

Build
Build-wise, as a Wizard, your INT is your power, your DEX is your ability to go first, and your CON is your lifeblood. Your INT determines how many bonus spells per day you get, as well as how hard each spell is to resist. (There are many spells, like buffs and summons, that have no saves. This is handy.)

This means an ideal Wizard race is one that boosts your INT, and perhaps also your CON and DEX as well. I consider Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves) to be the best in this regard: +2 INT, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 CHA. You get bonuses to stats that matter and penalties to stats that don't matter as much.

Since you're new at being a Wizard, I recommend going generalist. This allows you to try out a buncha spells and leaves all your spell schools open. This generalist synergizes well with being a Fire Elf, since you can take the Elf Wizard substitution level (Races of the Wild 157). This means you get an extra spell slot of the highest level you can cast (which is spell level 3 at this point), and you get an extra free Wizard spell known per Wizard level. Pretty cool, eh?

This Elf Wizard substitution level combos with the Domain Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) variant to give you extra free spells known from your domain, and additional spell slots. (I prefer the Conjuration domain.)

You can take prestige classes (PrCs) that advance your spellcasting, but plain ol' Wizard is plenty powerful. If you want to keep things simple, you can outright ignore PrCs until you feel ready. If you want to muck around, consider...

-Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerun 61). You oppose one school of magic at Incantatrix1 (I recommend Enchantment), but you get 4 metamagic feats over 10 levels. And you can apply Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell) and Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) to your allies' and your spells with a high enough Spellcraft check. Incantatrix lets you spontaneously apply metamagic to certain spells, and has a glorious capstone of Improved Metamagic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic).

Just take Iron Will (or pay 3000G for being affected by a wondrous location called an Otyugh Hole - Complete Scoundrel 152) and any metamagic feat (like Extend Spell) and you're set feat-wise. Talk with your GM if you plan to pay 3000G for the Otyugh Hole. It isn't an item, but it can be purchased like one.

NOTE: The Incantatrix from Player's Guide to Faerun is NOT the same Incantatrix as from the Wizards.com website. That version is 3.0 from Magic of Faerun.

-Escalation Mage (Faiths of Eberron 52). Take the feat Arcane Mastery (Complete Arcane 73, Complete Arcane Errata (http://www.robsworld.org/dndcampaign/3.5%20Errata/CompArcaneErrata03162005.pdf)) so you can take 10 on the Escalation Mage class features. Shadow Haste is the star here, allowing you to spontaneously Quicken spells with no slot level increase if you pass a difficult caster level check. In general, stick with Quickening lower level spells (like grease or glitterdust or web) and using your standard actions for your higher level spells.

[TuggyNE]

A Sorcerer is tier 1 and a Wizard would be tier 2 by your definition, with a Wizard being dependant on preparing it with less slots a day and a Sorcerer instantaneously casting it more times a day with more slots (4/5 v 6).

Eggy meant, I think, that Wizards have a lot of polymorph-style spells to choose from, each of which is capable of that sort of flexibility, and most of which can be traded out with only the vaguest of ideas of what a day might entail, or 15 minutes warning to prepare in an empty slot. This is especially useful given that some of them (planar binding, animate dead, explosive runes, wall of stone) are best cast on a non-combat day.

[Spuddles]

As a low lvl wizard, you arent going to be casting ten spell in a row in combat. You simply dont get enough spells per day. Get used to this- you're not a DFA or warloc anymore. Ignore weaksauce spells like magic missile or orb of fire- leave those for sorcerers.

You want spells that can shut down an encounter- command undead works automatically vs. any mindless undead. A CR6 megaraptor skeleton? Now it's your pet for the next 5 days, no save.

Ray of stupidity does 1d4+1 int damage. Any animal and many magical beasts lose to this spell automatically. As long as you go first, you can shut down gorgons and battletitans. Just dont flub that ranged touch attack.

For crowds of weak monsters, web is a great way to lock them up. With a druod in the party, only prep this one when you'll be indoors.

Glitterdust is immensely powerful- it reduces enemy damage by 50%. With a rogue in th party, your damage will be through the roof. Also helps allies see invisible/hidden things.

Grease is very powerful vs. most targets, especially giant type monsters. How many ogres and hill giants have ranks in balance? Grease also fills up 4 squares- the same area as a hill giant fills. This means you put it on an ogre who slips and falls, then your whole party can swarm him.

Slow is a great debuff, haste a great buff. Fly is good to have if your DM plays intelligent flying monsters, like demons, devils, or dragons, at all intelligently.

Lastly, shrink item OP. Works best if you can use it on a dungeon hazard like lava or acid, but even a fire will work. Turn the fire or barrel of lantern oil or puddle of lava into a small fabric shrunken item. It is inert, harmless, and lasts 5 days at this level. On your off time you can shrink a lot of barrels of lantern oil.

In combat, use the launch item level 0 spell to fling lava/acid/barrel of oil at your enemy.

You can also keep a bunch of useful, but large, items on hand. Like take a wagon apart, shrink each piece. Then when you need a wagon, you have magical lego wagon.

Or maybe you want to unshrink a forge to take advantage of the fires of mount doom in the field.

Or shrink all the pieces of a house. Instant fortification!

The only limit is creativity.


I guess, except for the fact that spontaneous divination replaces the wizard's feats, and that the lack of future feats makes PrC'ing out even more of a no brainer than usual. You end up with an ACF that's basically a feat, though I suppose it removes your ability to trade your feats out again. Still, those usages would basically just be different uses of the same feat.


It mas as well be. It goes where I put a wizard bonus feat as I level up, and the only requirement is giving up the bonus and that I'm a particular level of wizard progression. I mean granted I can't chaos shuffle it, but it's not significantly different in any other way.

What? Wizard bonus feats generally suck, but more importantly, it requires 5 levels of wizard to obtain. It's actually pretty important difference that it is an ACF, and thus only available to characters with at least 5 levels of wizard, and not a feat.

[morkendi]

At low level, scribe scroll is your best friend and continues to be good forever. I carry tons of scrolls with all my buff and utility spells and a few direct damage just in case I need them. Things like mage armor, rope trick, identify, heart of water, summon monster, summon undead, inviso, etc. The party even buys pearls before the loot split so I can create identify scrolls . I never run out of spells or things to do. Just look at what you do the most, and create scrolls to let you do more of it.

[kpumphre]

There is a much better feat called Uncanny Forethought. It does require spell mastery (which you can take as any hd releated feat such as levels 1, 3, 6, etc , or as a wizard bonus feat). Uncanny Forethought allows you to reserve a number of spell slots equal to your int modifier. You can than as a full round action and a loss of 2 caster level (practiced spellcaster fixes that) cast any spell you know spontaneously with that slot, or if you know that spell via spell mastery any spell you know as a standard action with no caster level loss.


Can someone explain this so me. So I have a 3level spell slot open can you explain this for me?

How would this work with reserve feats. So if I have a 3rd level spell slot open can I use WIND-GUIDED ARROWS [RESERVE]?

[Aliek]

You should keep in mind you don't have to prepare all your spell slots at once. It might be wise to keep a couple unprepared so you can get that one spell you need in 15 mins.

[Sam K]

Wizards are tier 1 for the sake that newbs can do shenanigans with them due to the simple fact that high lvl spells get insane, then again tier-list argumentation is highly amaturistic anyway and worshipped by those incapable of making productive characters on their own besides a 20 lvl base class, in that case wizards make a good chance of survival over the rest yes, because they can get through a lot more situations with their spells known, which in practise is kind of obsolete since you will never be able to prepare the right spells every time and specialization is more a cost than a virtue, but rewards the pain of a prepared caster. I would rank them tier 2 or perhaps 3 if I were to make my own class indexation on power basis.

The tier system IS based on single base classes though, isn't it? I don't think anyone (in their right mind) would argue that single class wizards rule supreme once you factor in splatbooks and level dips used to minmax for the hell of it.

[DEMON]

Can someone explain this so me. So I have a 3level spell slot open can you explain this for me?

How would this work with reserve feats. So if I have a 3rd level spell slot open can I use WIND-GUIDED ARROWS [RESERVE]?

Technically, you could, but your DM might have a different opinion. That depends on how he reads the "available to cast" part.

Anyways, Wind-guided arrows is not the kind of reserve feat I would aim for, if I was aiming for one.

Pretty much everything has already been said, but I don't think I have seen these feats suggested, so here goes:

Firs of all I second the Spell Mastery + Uncanny forethought combo.

If, for some reason, you have trouble acquiring new spells (scrolls/other spellbooks are unavailable, you have very limited source of money...) Collegiate Wizard feat gives you plenty of spells per level. Normally, this is not that important though, since learning new spells from scrolls should not be much of a problem.

As suggested, scrolls and wands are your good friends and Residual Magic feat can help with their caster level. Has a secondary benefit with metamagic.

Metamagic feats are also your good friends, pick some and also stock up on metamagic rods (extend for the win!).

If you decide to take a reserve feat, Fiery Burst, Storm Bolt and Winter's Blast mimic a weaker Fireball, Lightning Bolt and Cone of Cold. Neither of these requires an attack roll, so it's probably the best option for you (also better than missing with your crossbow).

[Sception]

Find ways to win the battle without dealing damage. Control battlefield or control the enemies. Or take the opposite approach and buff your teammates. Either way, the point is that dealing damage is the Fighter's job. Your job is to make the Fighter's job so easy that even a Fighter could do it.

fixed that for you ;)

[Story]

The tier system IS based on single base classes though, isn't it? I don't think anyone (in their right mind) would argue that single class wizards rule supreme once you factor in splatbooks and level dips used to minmax for the hell of it.

That depends. A single classed Wizard is still going to be more versatile and useful than say a Ninja/Rogue/Master Thrower or a Totemist/Barbarian/Warblade/Warshaper or whatever. Against an Anima Mage or Incantrix, obviously not.

A minmaxed mundane combatant is still mostly going to be focused on just damage. Even if they win every combat on the first round, they'll still be reliant on the Wizard to teleport them everywhere, scry beforehand, detect magical traps with Peramancied Arcane Sight, and so on.

[Talya]

The tier system IS based on single base classes though, isn't it? I don't think anyone (in their right mind) would argue that single class wizards rule supreme once you factor in splatbooks and level dips used to minmax for the hell of it.

Agreed. The tier system does not take multiclassing into account, you are correct. I would argue that with effective optimization, a sorcerer can equal or surpass the versatility of a single-classed wizard without any ACFs or high levels of optimization. However, once the wizard starts optimizing, they pretty much maintain the same distance.

There is an exception, though. Single class druids can still "rule supreme once you factor in splatbooks and level dips blah blah blah." While there are two decent druid PrCs of note, the only reason they are good choices is that the druid remains 100% druid by going into them, advancing all three of their primary class features.

[TETanglebrooke]

While there are two decent druid PrCs of note, the only reason they are good choices is that the druid remains 100% druid by going into them, advancing all three of their primary class features. [/COLOR]

Planar Shepard and Moonspeaker for those who don't know.


If you do the math, a specialist wizard has more high level spells per day on odd levels and equal number of high level spells on even levels due to the faster spell progression, you get your spells one class level earlier after all. A Focused specialist wizard has more high levels spells per day than a sorcerer at all times.

You're right, I was just looking quickly and scanned across the 20th level sp/day.

[kpumphre]

How does uncanny forethought and and practiced spell caster together work?

[Stux]

2) Dealing damage is one of the worst things you could use your turn doing in combat.


So what should I be doing during combat? I've been playing for years but never as a true magic user

Look at it this way: Say it is level 1. You have an option to prepare Magic Missile or Color Spray. You can either use magic missile and deal 1d4 damage to 1 target (likely not killing them) and then you are done. Or you can use Color Spray and potentially shut down every enemy you are facing for a turn, and give them penalties for long after that, allowing the rest of your party to easily take them out with impunity.

This is obviously a simplified explanation, but I hope it illustrates how getting the most out of a wizard is all about spell selection, and why simple damage spells are rarely the best option.

[TETanglebrooke]

How does uncanny forethought and and practiced spell caster together work?

Uncanny Forethought lowers your caster level by 2 for that spell.
Practiced Spellcaster raises your caster level by 4 but not above your HD.

CL-2+(<=4)=CL

[Talya]

Planar Shepard and Moonspeaker for those who don't know.


...

THREE! there are THREE decent PRCs for a druid! 'Ah 'ah 'ah!
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/image.php?u=44447&dateline=1260293732

I was thinking Lion of Talisid.

I question Moonspeaker. Its wildshape continuity is hobbled slightly (-4 levles) and it doesn't advance your animal companion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt though, because I've not looked into it in detail.

[nedz]

I also recognize the instinctual dislike of using your spells or the thought of wasting them. As such look up spontaneous divination and remember this simple mantra: A wizard who never casts his spells has wasted them far more than the one that used them all for some effect. He is basically a commoner with knowledge skills.
Conversely: A Wizard who still has spells left is more powerful than one who has cast them all already.
Synergy: It's about resource management really.


Wizards are tier 1 for the sake that newbs can do shenanigans with them due to the simple fact that high lvl spells get insane, then again tier-list argumentation is highly amaturistic anyway and worshipped by those incapable of making productive characters on their own besides a 20 lvl base class, in that case wizards make a good chance of survival over the rest yes, because they can get through a lot more situations with their spells known, which in practise is kind of obsolete since you will never be able to prepare the right spells every time and specialization is more a cost than a virtue, but rewards the pain of a prepared caster. I would rank them tier 2 or perhaps 3 if I were to make my own class indexation on power basis.

Try looking at the problem from the other side of the screen.

I was running a game for a 5th level party, so I thought some aquatic challenges might be in order. They were tasked with exploring an underground canal and were given a barge and a mule with which to tow it.

The party contained 2 clerics. These each prepared Water Walking a couple of times and spread it out among the party, even including the stupid mule.

Had they been spontaneous casters it would be very unlikely for them to have known this spell because it's so situational, but because they were prepared casters they were able to prepare it easily.

This completely trivialised the nature of the challenge.

This is the difference between T1 and T2.

[TETanglebrooke]

...

THREE! there are THREE decent PRCs for a druid! 'Ah 'ah 'ah!
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/image.php?u=44447&dateline=1260293732

I was thinking Lion of Talisid.

I question Moonspeaker. Its wildshape continuity is hobbled slightly (-4 levles) and it doesn't advance your animal companion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt though, because I've not looked into it in detail.

Ah, I'd forgotten about Lion, I rarely look through BoED because I never play good characters.

[eggynack]

What? Wizard bonus feats generally suck, but more importantly, it requires 5 levels of wizard to obtain. It's actually pretty important difference that it is an ACF, and thus only available to characters with at least 5 levels of wizard, and not a feat.
So, it's basically a wizard bonus feat, rather than a regular feat. Still kinda a feat. I don't see the issue.



I question Moonspeaker. Its wildshape continuity is hobbled slightly (-4 levles) and it doesn't advance your animal companion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt though, because I've not looked into it in detail.
Moonspeaker is a very interesting option, and one I've never evaluated to the extent that I'd like to. It's a class that offers, not mere copies of druid class features, but instead a set of new class features that may be of equivalent or greater value. In essence, the moonspeaker trades away AC and wild shape advancement for a great increase in spell casting ability, granting both augment summoning, and doubling the duration of summons, and adding pretty critical spells and summons to the list at 4th and 12th.You get invisibility and crap-gate for crissakes (haven't yet found out how good the moonspeaker minionmancy options are in comparison to the broader list).

Besides that, all of the class features on the moonspeaker list, and there's one or more at every level, are reasonably powerful. On the wild shape front, you don't necessarily need the best advancement available if you're focused on spells. Moonspeaker is unique among good druid PrC's for being rather different from a straight druid, and that may be a good thing. I'm not too doubtful that what you get from the class can bring you to parity.

[Icewraith]

If you're used to warlocks, splitting the difference with a Wizard ends up with a sorcerer. Not as much versatility, but if you need to spam spells, you can.

For instance, a Wizard has one Glitterdust spell prepared. The party runs into a large group of individually weak monsters. This is a great time for Glitterdust. The Wizard casts Glitterdust, but the DM's dice are on fire so most of the monsters save.

The Wizard in this example has to fall back on a spell that might not be as useful for this situation, or make do with his crossbow or reserve feats, depending on how big a deal all the monsters saving is. Note however, that if there were any hidden or invisible monsters in the spell's area they're still exposed, and it's unlikely that ALL of the monsters saved against blindness even if your DM is rolling well, so the Wizard probably got good use out of the spell.

The sorcerer just Glitterdusts the whole group again on the next round, if he thinks the party's in significant danger without a bunch of the opponents blinded. The other nice thing about the sorcerer is that if he has a reserve feat and heighten spell, he always has a [type] spell available of the maximum level he can cast until he runs out of maximum-level spell slots. (A Wizard packing the Flaming Burst reserve feat and one Fireball can't use the reserve feat if he casts the Fireball and has no other [fire] spells prepared)

The only thing with Sorcerers (aside from getting access to the next level of spells a level after Wizards) is that, even with Runestaff and Knowstone tricks, it's less likely that you have exactly the right spell for the job than a Wizard. You're mostly stuck with the spells you learn, so you need to make sure you're learning good spells!

[Ansem]

Add to the fact Sorcerers dont get free metamagic feats, which is bull**** imho...

[Icewraith]

One free metamagic feat, since you should PRC out asap. The main point is that if you know what spells you want to cast, but not sure you know how many of each you'll want to cast, Sorcerer is a good choice.

[Talya]

One free metamagic feat, since you should PRC out asap. The main point is that if you know what spells you want to cast, but not sure you know how many of each you'll want to cast, Sorcerer is a good choice.

One free metamagic feat and one free item creation feat, you mean. :smallwink:

[Icewraith]

Scribe scroll isn't as big a deal on a sorcerer as it is on a wizard. If you want a scroll of it to increase your versatility, the reason is that it's not on your spells known list in the first place.

Craft Staff, on the other hand, combined with access to scrolls of whatever it is you might want to cast out of combat once or twice a day, results in a very versatile sorcerer with a couple tricked-out runestaves.

[Incanur]

Scribe Scroll can also become the fighter bonus feat of your choice with the Unearthed Arcana variant. Improved Initiative can be a better, depending on the campaign and character design.

[Ivanhoe]

Maybe if the OP is uncertain about the capabiity of a 5th level wizard he can try to do some test runs vs CR 3-7 creatures of the SRD (picking randomly for 3-4 encounters in a row).
In each such test, the wizard could try doing it by himself (to get a feeling for any vulnerabilities), or, more importantly, imagine how he could contribute in the party.
If he gets through with the spells available, it should be fine. If not, probably different spell choices will be the answer.