[3.5] Favored Soul blues

[Thurbane]

Hey, just a general observation.

In the past, I have quite vigorously defended the Favored Soul, saying it's not as bad as people say. Well, still a full caster, so not that bad, but how awful it is compared to a Cleric or Sorcerer.

Having played one for a few months now, I fully retract all my defense of this class. To be fair, some of my newfound disdain for FS is based on the fact I've never really played a character who is almost solely a Healbot and OOC bufer. This role in the party blows, hard. Closest I had come before was a Dragon Shaman, and even he had some decent offensive options compared to my FS.

We are playing in a standard (25) point buy game - this means I used Wis as a dump stat, thinking not using any spells with a DC would make this OK. It doesn't - it just means my sole offensive spell at this point is Spiritual weapon, which due to action economy of switching targets etc. tends to be fairly ineffectual. We generally roll up our stats in our games, so there was a chance I might have "lucked out" and been able to invest in Wis. In (lowish) point buy, FS sucks even harder.

Secondly, one of the other guys is playing a Cleric, meaning I'm not even the best divine caster in the party. Protip - if anyone is ever considering playing a FS, for the love of Pelor, don't do it in a party that has a Cleric. You will seriously feel like his puny, dimwitted little brother.

Third, we are playing in a game where there has been very, very little opportunity to buy magical gear, so I haven't even been able to shore up my weaknesses that way.

The DM has approached me and said he will houserule my casting stats so that it is all based off CHA. I declined, since I can't retcon my spell selection to this point, and I am also stubbornly determined to play the class as written. Who was the dimbulb at Wizards who decided this class needed dual casting stats, when considering it's amazingly underwhelming "class features". I'm just planning to play this character until it is killed, then go Sorcerer.

FWIW, my group is far from optimizers - the rest of the party is Dwarf Fighter 7 (going for Dwarven Defender), Human Barbarian 1/Warmage 6 and the aforementioned Dwarf Cleric 7. This (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=622651) is my character.

Anyway, this was pretty much just a rant, but I'm interested in hearing other people's experience with this class.

Cheers - T

[Greenish]

Hey, this is the internet, you're not supposed to change your mind just because reality doesn't conform to your expectations!

[Palanan]

As far as the Favored Soul, you can console yourself that it could be worse.

When I played my one and only Favored Soul, I thought it would be dandy to multiclass. With Swashbuckler.



Yes, I say it for all to hear. I worked up a Favored Soul/Swashbuckler...and gawd, was he terrible. It wasn't just the mechanics; I really enjoyed the character concept, his persona, the roleplaying, all of that, but he was smack dab in the wrong type of campaign, and in fact run by perhaps the worst DM I've dealt with in my adult life. (The kind who ostentatiously cackles, rubs his hands, and declares he's a "Lawful Evil" DM. Yeah.)

The real problem was that my character was stuck trying to be the party healer, when he barely had enough slots to keep himself going. I'm not as hard on swashbuckler as most folks, but even so it just wasn't working.

The DM did let me swap him out, though. For a cleric. :smallbiggrin:

[Craft (Cheese)]

I can't retcon my spell selection to this point

Why not? DM said no? Some RP reason?


Who was the dimbulb at Wizards who decided this class needed dual casting stats, when considering it's amazingly underwhelming "class features".

I can think of two explanations.

1. Overvaluing the free weapon proficiencies and energy resistances. Also, the FS gets 1 additional spell known per level when compared to a sorcerer.

2. "Woah, the Cleric is REALLY strong! Better give this class some nerfs so it doesn't end up as overpowered as the cleric." I don't disagree with this idea in principle, but if this was the case it should have been advertised as a cleric replacement rather than a new base class.

[Maginomicon]

Have you tried asking your GM for the dead levels abilities (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) for Favored Souls? They don't do a lot, but it might be enough to grant you increased versatility. Granted, for exalted presence and faith healing the target has to fit certain requirements, but if a party member doesn't fit that you can OOC try to convince them to convert to gain use of your healing abilities and IC try to actively/passively evangelize.

Additionally, realize that Favored Souls can't "fall". Falling is a paladin or cleric thing, but not you. You simply have to be within one alignment step of your deity and can't be true neutral (unless your deity is true neutral). That gives you a lot of leeway to roleplay as you see fit. You have no code of conduct lashing you down or restrictions on alignment-based spells. So long as you can keep away from forcing an alignment change (which some GMs never do anyway), you'd get away scot-free. (Basically, favored souls are souls that were determined to be favored by a god for some reason, possibly because that god "knows" that some day favoring that soul best serves or will eventually best serve that god's interests.)

[Thurbane]

This list of allowed classes for this campaign was as follows:

Barbarian
Cleric
Dragonfire Adept
Duskblade
Favored Soul
Fighter
Healer
Monk
Ninja
Paladin
Ranger * (distracting attack variant)
Rogue
Samurai
Scout
Sorcerer
Spellthief
Swashbuckler
Warlock
Warmage

...I should have gone with DFA or Sorcerer, but since I played a Dragon Shaman last time under this DM, and had been wanting to try out FS...

There's also house rules in play that character sources can only include Core plus 1 non core book (Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium are exempt from this, and can be used freely). This is a fairly common rule for our group.

[Fates]

This list of allowed classes for this campaign was as follows:

Barbarian
Cleric
Dragonfire Adept
Duskblade
Favored Soul
Fighter
Healer
Monk
Ninja
Paladin
Ranger * (distracting attack variant)
Rogue
Samurai
Scout
Sorcerer
Spellthief
Swashbuckler
Warlock
Warmage

...I should have gone with DFA or Sorcerer, but since I played a Dragon Shaman last time under this DM, and had been wanting to try out FS...

There's also house rules in play that character sources can only include Core plus 1 non core book (Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium are exempt from this, and can be used freely). This is a fairly common rule for our group.

Hmm. Honestly, I think things might have gone a lot better if 1: You hadn't used point buy (or had used a much higher point buy) and 2: Your DM banned cleric. That houserule is arguably okay so long as the powerhouse classes are right out- buy cleric is an extremely strong class even in a core-only game, and needs a lot less extra support than classes like favored soul.

[Thurbane]

Hmm. Honestly, I think things might have gone a lot better if 1: You hadn't used point buy (or had used a much higher point buy) and 2: Your DM banned cleric. That houserule is arguably okay so long as the powerhouse classes are right out- buy cleric is an extremely strong class even in a core-only game, and needs a lot less extra support than classes like favored soul.
Yeah, DM said he would prefer if some classes on the list were avoided, but if players really wanted them, he would allow it. Cleric was one of these, but one of the players had his heart set on a cleric.

This is pretty much my first point buy game, and I'm really not digging it. He thought that since 25 point buy is equal to "elite" erray, which is what the major NPCs use, it would be more than enough for us.

[Waker]

Favored Soul does have some potential, but I honestly see it as only truly shining when used in gestalt. It does have a decent spell list, but the split casting mechanic and limited spells known really hurts it. Then to compound the issue, it has limited access to most divine PrCs since so many of them require Turn Undead. Decent suggestions to for houserule fixes might include granting them the spells known mechanic that the spirit shaman uses, consolidating their casting stat and handwaving the Turn Undead requirements for PrCs (excepting those that specifically use it such as RSoP).

[Thurbane]

Not only do they lack turn undead which so many divine PrCs require, they also lack Knowledge (religion) on their class list, without ACFs.

You can get it through feats etc. but that's more resources burnt.

Their spells known number is actually not too bad - they know more than a Sorcerer at most given class levels.

But yes, bottom line is they will never shine when alongside a Cleric.

[Maginomicon]

they also lack Knowledge (religion) on their class list, without ACFs.Are you counting the dead levels article as an ACF? (it's an odd wording if so because you don't replace anything for taking it, it's just a free ability) If not, you get your choice of knowledge (religion) or knowledge (arcana) as class skills.

[Faily]

The thing I've learned with Favoured Souls is that they *can not* be super-utility as the Cleric can. The Cleric can swap their spells every day for whatever is needed, and can be whatever they want to be. Feats just make them even better.

The FS on the other hand, needs to stay wholly focused on one thing. My most preferred method for them is to go the route of DPS or Tank. With the right-selected spells, they can be decent front-liners.

Without going into super-change (or really optimize) here is some changes I would've done (keeping the same Patron):

1. Swap Strength and Dexterity. It helps your attack rolls more. If possible, lower Dexterity for more points to Strength.
2. Heavy Armor proficiency instead of Improved Initiative (frankly, I rarely see the point of high Initiative unless one has abilities like Sneak Attack to benefit from by going first, but that's my personal opinion, so YMMV).
3. Improved Toughness instead of Lightning Reflexes.
4. Extend Spell instead of Iron Will to make sure your buffs last longer.
5. New spell selection:
1st - Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Bless, Light of Lunia (Damage spell with no save), Nightshield, Conviction. Others to consider: Lesser Vigor, Protection from Evil, Cure Light Wounds.
2nd - Bull's Strength, Elation, Resist Energy, Cure Moderate Wounds.
3rd - Searing Light (damage spell with no save), Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon.


Obscuring Mist isn't bad, but I'd rather carry a scroll or two with it (you got the Haversack, so it's not a problem to bring it out) incase you need a smoke-cover to escape under. Healing Lorecall is... meh, leave that to the Cleric. :smallwink: Close Wounds is a spell I'm torn on, but it's rather something I'd again leave to the Cleric, as you're short enough on spells known as it is on this level. Lesser Restoration is again something you should carry in potions or scrolls as it's not a spell you will be casting often enough to be worthy of a spell known-slot. I agree that Spiritual Weapon is good for action-economy, but you should focus on getting off your most important buffs instead.

All in all, I think you could have more fun with your FS if you're not healing (as you got a Cleric in the party), but instead focus on going on the frontline and be a back-up healer incase things go horribly wrong.

[No brains]

Favored Soul is unfortunately another one of those classes that I really liked when I first started reading D&D stuff, but sadly turned out to be a sub par choice...

[ngilop]

I am confused here.. favored soul is one of the most powerful and veratile classes in the game. and for some odd reaosn everybody in this thread is syaing it a worhtless class and that you are making a terribly idiotc choice if you play as one.


But then agian.. im no GiTP regular. so maybe I am completely missing the mark here. sometimes i wanna dip my face in acid on why i even post in some GiTP thread.. and maybe it jut becuase im not an optimizer so I cna never get behind that logic and train of thought..


I just alwasy assumed that Favored Soul was a great class.. i guess im a failure in knwoing wtf is going on in D&D.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I am confused here.. favored soul is one of the most powerful and veratile classes in the game. and for some odd reaosn everybody in this thread is syaing it a worhtless class and that you are making a terribly idiotc choice if you play as one.

It's all about relative power. Compared to a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger? Favored Soul is an extremely powerful class that can snap campaigns in half in the hands of a player who knows what they're doing. Compared to a Cleric or a Sorcerer? It's all but strictly inferior.

[Ezekiul]

You could also cheat by adding a level of sorcerer and taking the Alternative Spell Source feat. I would like to believe this qualifies you for any prestige class that requires non prepared/spontaneous casting of arcane spells, like Fiendblooded for example (which would add spells known from the necromancy, illusion, enchantment, or those with the fire descriptor at spell levels above a cleric could get with anyspell). Another one would be the Exalted Arcanist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) which can give some free metamagic feats to spells. Im sure there are other classes you can jump into that would greatly improve your utility. Stick it to those silly clerics! :smallwink:

Also if you can find a source of turn undead (a level in sacred exorcist or cleric) you can use divine metamagic to do things like persist or quicken spells.

[ngilop]

It's all about relative power. Compared to a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger? Favored Soul is an extremely powerful class that can snap campaigns in half in the hands of a player who knows what they're doing. Compared to a Cleric or a Sorcerer? It's all but strictly inferior.

WHy thank you for enlightening me that the only way I need to be playing D&D is at the level where 'tier' 2 classes are moot.

I guess I owe you one.. imam have to spend probly a severla yeasr to get up up that style and power of play.. but at least now I know where I need to be going to be on the right track.

[Craft (Cheese)]

WHy thank you for enlightening me that the only way I need to be playing D&D is at the level where 'tier' 2 classes are moot.

What? That's not what I meant at all. Play at whatever power level you like.

[Marnath]

WHy thank you for enlightening me that the only way I need to be playing D&D is at the level where 'tier' 2 classes are moot.

I guess I owe you one.. imam have to spend probly a severla yeasr to get up up that style and power of play.. but at least now I know where I need to be going to be on the right track.

I saw it as the opposite actually. If those other classes are so much more ridiculously powerful, then they're the bad class. From a design perspective. Take Favored Soul and let your party members actually contribute instead of steamrolling everything on a God Wizard or a CoDzilla.

[Thurbane]

Unfortunately I can't retcon the character abilities, feats or spells, and my sources (for feats, classes etc.) are strictly core plus Complete Divine (with the exception of SC for spell selection, and MIC for item selection). Class dips are further restricted to the list above - not that I'd really want to dip in another base class anyway.

Speaking of which, after tonight's session, we are finally getting to a large town where we can sell and buy magical gear. Bearing in mind it must be from DMG oe MIC, and with a budget of about 7k-10k gold total to spend, what would people recommend? I'd like something to give me some offensive capabilities if at all possible.

DM reserves veto rights, and Anklet of Translocation is already on the no-go list, as are partially charged wands.

[Thanatosia]

Runestaves are a decent way to help Sorcer/FSs compete a bit more in flexability with Wizards/Clerics.

[nedz]

DM reserves veto tights,

Another typo ? :smallconfused:

Anyway, you could try grabbing some domains via PrCs, though you have left this a bit late.

FS / Stormlord is a tolerable MO build since you can at least melle with a long sparking spear or zap them with electric javelins, but you have chosen the wrong god.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I see a couple problems in your build that are making your FS feel a lot less potent than he could've been.

First and foremost, you're completely wasting spells known on cure spells with a cleric in the party and they wouldn't necessarily be all that useful even if he wasn't there.

Your feat selection is pretty rough too, even with the limited sources.

I'm honestly not sure this is salvagable. Sacred excorcist and some divine fears might help, if your skills are right. Either way you might consider just retiring the character.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I see a couple problems in your build that are making your FS feel a lot less potent than he could've been.
This. I had a player run a Favored Soul in a part with a Crusader variant (traded Steely Resolve for a paladin mount), Sorcerer, and Wildshape barbarian homebrew, and she was fine. I'd say your biggest problem is that you choose a role that's just... boring. (Defensive buffs and healing spells). That'd make anything unfun to play. Ask your DM if you can retire or respec.

[Faily]

If the character is no longer fun to play, the most sensible option does seem to be character-retirement. There's no shame in it, and it happens to us all at some point. I don't think there are any magic items you can buy at this point that would make you feel like you're being useful again...


Also, of all the spells I listed above, only Elation was outside of PHB or Spell Compendium, as it is from Book of Exalted Deeds, though it's one spell most GMs I know have never had a problem with from BoED.

It's fully possible to have fun playing a Favored Soul, but it seems that with a Cleric in the party, it's just not possible to make this heal/buff-role work as well. When my group did Red Hand of Doom, we had a Favored Soul, a Monk, a Ranger/Scout, and myself playing a Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus. And the one playing FS had plenty of space to shine as the healer, the front-line tank, and the occassional useful buff. But most of the time, he was a front-liner.

[Thurbane]

Another typo ? :smallconfused:
No no, in our group when the DM wants to veto something, he has to wear the ceremonial set of bright pink tights before he makes his announcement. :smallbiggrin:

Typo corrected.

I see a couple problems in your build that are making your FS feel a lot less potent than he could've been.

First and foremost, you're completely wasting spells known on cure spells with a cleric in the party and they wouldn't necessarily be all that useful even if he wasn't there.

Your feat selection is pretty rough too, even with the limited sources.

I'm honestly not sure this is salvagable. Sacred excorcist and some divine fears might help, if your skills are right. Either way you might consider just retiring the character.
Spell selection was mostly set before I knew there would be a Cleric in the group (character started at level 5) - after that, I didn't want to waste my Augment Healing feat.

Just curious - from just the PHB and CD, what feat selections would you have gone for?

I'll freely admit, it not the best of optimizers, and tend not to optimize that much in my group anyway, as no one else really does.

If the character is no longer fun to play, the most sensible option does seem to be character-retirement. There's no shame in it, and it happens to us all at some point. I don't think there are any magic items you can buy at this point that would make you feel like you're being useful again...
True. But I have a stubborn streak. :smallfrown:

[Firechanter]

I am confused here.. favored soul is one of the most powerful and veratile classes in the game. and for some odd reaosn everybody in this thread is syaing it a worhtless class

The problem with FS, as I see it, is twofold:
1. due to the limited Spells Known, if you want to fill the most basic Cleric niche, you have to burn so many slots on curative spells that there is very little room for anything else. (UA Spontaneous Cleric has the same problem)
2. the other class features that the FS gets are mostly chaff. They don't synergize well or are downright meaningless. It feels like the devs only added them to make the table look better.

[JeminiZero]

If you want offence without needing high spell DC, consider summoning (or summoning-like effects such as Conjure Ice Beast).

Rapid Spell is in CD right? Although I'm not sure how that interacts with spontaneous spellcasting. Otherwise it might be useful to crank out Summon Monster 2 within a full round (preventing you from being disrupted) on a level 3 slot.

Resurgence is independent of caster level. It is therefore a good option to put in a wand.

True. But I have a stubborn streak. :smallfrown:
At the very least, consider respeccing your FS then.

[nedz]

What you want, ideally, is a PrC which gives you more options — domains in this case. Obviously you needed to plan for that, and you haven't, and so now you're stuck.

[Thurbane]

What you want, ideally, is a PrC which gives you more options — domains in this case. Obviously you needed to plan for that, and you haven't, and so now you're stuck.
From the list of books there wasn't much available, and the game will only be going to level 10 or so.

2. the other class features that the FS gets are mostly chaff. They don't synergize well or are downright meaningless. It feels like the devs only added them to make the table look better.
Could not agree more. Paltry amount of energy resistance, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec at a level where it makes no difference, and wings at a level 10 or more levels after almost everyone else has some method of flight.

[nedz]

From CDiv, five levels of FS should set you up for five levels of these

Divine Oracle
Stormlord
Seeker of the Misty Isle (tricky, but possible)

[Sith_Happens]

Spell selection was mostly set before I knew there would be a Cleric in the group (character started at level 5) - after that, I didn't want to waste my Augment Healing feat.

1. Find a 7th level Psion.
2. Pay him 1155 gp.
3. Respec (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).

[Marnath]

1. Find a 7th level Psion.
2. Pay him 1155 gp.
3. Respec (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).

Or just explain to your DM that it isn't at all fair to make you keep your original character build when you made it under the assumption you'd be the only divine caster. That's like letting your player make a crit-fishing build when you know you've planned an undead campaign, and then not letting him do anything about it.

[Thurbane]

From CDiv, five levels of FS should set you up for five levels of these

Divine Oracle
Stormlord
Seeker of the Misty Isle (tricky, but possible)

Divine Oracle = Knowledge Religion 8 ranks - don't have as a class skill with the materials allowed.
Stormlord = only a certain list of deities were allowed to the players, not including Talos.
Seeker = Survival 8 ranks - don't have as a class skill with the materials allowed. Not to mention I have an almost pathological hatred of playing any type of elf.

I get that I'm a crappy optimizer, OK. You're kind of just rubbing it in at this point. :smallfrown:

1. Find a 7th level Psion.
2. Pay him 1155 gp.
3. Respec (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).
No psionics in the campaign.

Not to mention it is an "on the clock" type adventure and we can't take time out.

Or just explain to your DM that it isn't at all fair to make you keep your original character build when you made it under the assumption you'd be the only divine caster. That's like letting your player make a crit-fishing build when you know you've planned an undead campaign, and then not letting him do anything about it.
He probably would if I kicked up enough fuss.

Meh - just gonna play this guy until he dies. Almost got killed by a Greenspawn Razorfiend in last night's session...

I thought I might be able to salvage something with an upcoming magcial gear shopping trip, but apparently not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since you asked.

First and foremost this presumes that I could get the DM to add know (religion) to the FS skill list because this is an officially sanctioned move and it just doesn't make any sense that it wasn't on there in the first place. If he was absolutely adamant that it was not a class skill and I needed to suck it up, I would probably question our compatibility for gaming very seriously before I rolled up anything. That's just too uptight for my liking, really.





First feat is spontaneous healer. This way you only need cure minor wounds and you've got healing covered by conversion, albeit limited in times per day. If you have to do more healing than that you've got bigger problems than class choice. I would've left dex at 12 and dumped strength instead to keep wisdom a little higher.

Third feat is extend spell. Buffs that last twice as long are just plain better and at level 3 doubling durations of some can be the difference between the spell making it to the end of the encounter or not.

Sixth is craft wand. Wands of cure spells are immensely more useful than actually preparing the spell. A wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor only takes a day to craft and is worth its weight in platinum for keeping the party going. Wands of certain other spells can also be decent if you can arrange some more time to craft them.



If the preface is absolutely a no-go, (Gods Why?) replace spontaneous healer with maybe widen spell or eschew materials. There just aren't many good options for level one feats in just those two books.

[Thurbane]

First feat is spontaneous healer. This way you only need cure minor wounds and you've got healing covered by conversion, albeit limited in times per day. If you have to do more healing than that you've got bigger problems than class choice. I would've left dex at 12 and dumped strength instead to keep wisdom a little higher.
Good point, but I did have delusions of being a melee backup type. Not to mention that even with my current strength I was about 2 pounds from dropping into the next encumbrance bracket (before I found a mithril shirt).

Third feat is extend spell. Buffs that last twice as long are just plain better and at level 3 doubling durations of some can be the difference between the spell making it to the end of the encounter or not.
That is a good suggestion. I did consider it, but thought I would rather not waste higher level slots on lower level spells - but I can deifnitely see your point now.

Sixth is craft wand. Wands of cure spells are immensely more useful than actually preparing the spell. A wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor only takes a day to craft and is worth its weight in platinum for keeping the party going. Wands of certain other spells can also be decent if you can arrange some more time to craft them.
Current campaign/adventure is an "on the clock" type, so no downtime for crafting, unfortunately.

If the preface is absolutely a no-go, (Gods Why?) replace spontaneous healer with maybe widen spell or eschew materials. There just aren't many good options for level one feats in just those two books.
Widen, maybe. Eschew materials - I can see it as having no value so long as you have a spell component pouch. Fortunately, my DM isn't the type would would sunder it, and I can't see us being captured at any point in the near future (if the enemy had us helpless, we'd be dead).

But thank you for the suggestions - I will definitely consider Extend Spell.

[avr]

Rejecting the DM's offer to base all FS spellcasting off CHA seems unnecessary. You've both seen the problem, he's offered the beginning of a fix, there's no reason not to take it. You will get more spells as you go up levels even if you change none that you already have.

If you buy a few high-level scrolls you might be able to pull something out of the haversack in a real fix, but 7-10K won't hugely improve your routine offence.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As a -backup- melee you could've done fine with 10 base strength by boosting it with bulls strength to 14. It would've been a good support buff for your primary melee too. One more level and you could pick up divine power and be ready to make the primary melee nervous. :smallwink:

[Morphie]

Well, I don't have much to add, just a quick observation:
You can buy metamagic rods to make up for the feats you could've chosen. A metamagic rod of lesser extend is cheap (3.000 gp) and helps a lot. Memento Magica from MIC is also an option, such as the Empowered Spellshard, also from MIC.

Remember, the game is fun as long as you're having fun, so if the char doesn't work, there's no problem in changing it. Anyway, hope you find what you're looking for :smallsmile:

[TypoNinja]

I feel your pain.

I too loved the idea of the Favored Soul when I heard about it, but the class we actually got was just executed terribly. It loses so much compared to a cleric, and the abilities it does gain come too late to be useful, or are just underwhelming.

My three biggest peeves with it are the energy resistance powers, the wings and lack of turn undead.

Energy resistance, really? Cleric casting and apparently somebody thought energy resistance was something I needed. Can I trade it back for domains?

Wings, awesome! flight! Oh, 17th level... ehhh less thrilling. The party wizard has been packing a fly spell for combat for the last 11 levels. We're just a wee bit late to the party here.

And finally, turning. This offends me on a fluff level. We have here a divine sorcerer, all about naturally imbued with divine powers, and I can't channel energy? What the crap?

[Sith_Happens]

And finally, turning. This offends me on a fluff level. We have here a divine sorcerer, all about naturally imbued with divine powers, and I can't channel energy? What the crap?

It makes perfect sense. If Favored Souls could Turn Undead, then they'd actually be able to qualify for a single one of the fun feats or prestige classes that have ever been printed for Clerics before or since then.

(Sadly, that's not sarcasm. As I explained on another Favored Soul thread, the only reason I can think of for the lack of both Turn Undead and Knowledge(Religion) is that they deliberately wanted to keep Favored Souls from qualifying for any cool toys.)

[Firechanter]

What's the semantic opposite of "Favoured", anyway? ^^
Shafted Soul?

[TypoNinja]

It makes perfect sense. If Favored Souls could Turn Undead, then they'd actually be able to qualify for a single one of the fun feats or prestige classes that have ever been printed for Clerics before or since then.

(Sadly, that's not sarcasm. As I explained on another Favored Soul thread, the only reason I can think of for the lack of both Turn Undead and Knowledge(Religion) is that they deliberately wanted to keep Favored Souls from qualifying for any cool toys.)

I had thought this might be the case, just to stop them from being too much like pallies grabbing all the turn undead powered combat feats. As much as I might agree with the intent of keeping the classes distinct, like I said it offends me on a fluff level. If anything the Favored Soul should be better at turning than a cleric.

[Grod_The_Giant]

(Sadly, that's not sarcasm. As I explained on another Favored Soul thread, the only reason I can think of for the lack of both Turn Undead and Knowledge(Religion) is that they deliberately wanted to keep Favored Souls from qualifying for any cool toys.)
For Turn Undead, I'm guessing they had seen that the Sorcerer wasn't distinct enough from the Wizard, and were trying not to repeat the mistake. No Knowledge Religion is so absurd I can't believe it wasn't a typo, though.

"I am chosen of Pelor!"
"What do you stand for, then?"
"I... I have no idea!"

[Arc_knight25]

When I played my half orc Favoured Soul. I started with 1 lvl of Barb then Favoured Soul into Pious Templar. I was a frontline fighter/OOC healer.

I would learn the Cure X Wounds at each spell level as well as the restorations. And that was it. The party knew it as well.

In another campaign our Favoured Soul was a Heal bot. He took Versatile caster and Mobile Caster. He had a huge mvt speed so you were never out of his reach. But that's all he really did, well he had harm, nothing says I love you like taking a crap ton of damage. But no one could come close to the numbers he was pumping out for heals.

I personally like the Favoured Soul. They are kind of Gishy, they get the heavy armour, the casting (even with the MAD casting) they have a lot of flavour as well. Just focus on being on the frontline and forget about the rest of the party, you have a cleric let him use his spells and see how often he has the win button when he has to heal the party.

[TypoNinja]

I personally like the Favoured Soul. They are kind of Gishy, they get the heavy armour, the casting (even with the MAD casting) they have a lot of flavour as well. Just focus on being on the frontline and forget about the rest of the party, you have a cleric let him use his spells and see how often he has the win button when he has to heal the party.

They don't that's the hilarious part.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Favored souls are
proficient with all simple weapons, with light and medium
armor, and with shields (except tower shields). A favored
soul is also proficient with her deity’s favored weapon.
Although a favored soul is not proficient with heavy armor,
wearing it does not interfere with her spellcasting.

I love the Idea of the Favored Soul. Divine Sorcerer would have been awesome. I'd play one.

If you gave it back Domians, Turn Undead, and the ability to spontaneous Cure/Inflict.

Some class features that actually matter would be great too, as it is, PRC outta that sucker as fast as possible, though can't complain too much since Sorcerer is pretty much the same as far as that goes.

I would have loved a Non-terrible FS, I'm currently playing a Cleric/Sorc mystic thruge and I'd have loved to make it spontaneous casting on both sides, but FS is just so terrible I had to go Cleric.

[Valwyn]

I personally like the Favored Soul, even if I haven't played on in PnP (I did play one in NWN2). I'd focus on buffs (even the self-only ones), like Divine Power.

For feats, you could try some metamagic. Rapid Spell should help, especially is you take summons. Reach Spell keeps you away from pointy sticks and let's you heal from a distance, and Consecrate Spell can help you blast more effectively (vs evil things, at least). Silent Spell should come in handy if you cast Silence on yourself.

If you want to keep healing, Panacea might be a good choice for a 4th level spell. Ask your DM if he'll let you take Draconic Might from the Paladin, it's a nice melee buff and matches Bahamut.

You could try the retraining rules from the PHB II (I haven't really read them). Have your DM give you a personal side quest (clear a lair and recover a stolen artifact or something) to speed up the process.


Edit: here's a favored soul (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=620516) I once built but never used. Not sure if it's 100% legal, but I like him. Maybe you could get some ideas for spell selection.

[Adverb]

Thurbane, a question:

How many encounters per day does your group tend to have? I feel like the sheer spells per day that an FS gets might make them more competitive when there's 4+ encounters per day.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that the class list your DM published should exclude Cleric if he wants it to be balanced and low-power.

[TypoNinja]

Thurbane, a question:

How many encounters per day does your group tend to have? I feel like the sheer spells per day that an FS gets might make them more competitive when there's 4+ encounters per day.


Except we don't really get that many sheer spells per day from a FS

20th level is
6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
compare a cleric 20 at
6 5+1 5+1 5+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1

Compare this to the Sorcer/Wiz Where the Wizard gets 4's across the board at 20th and the Sorcerer gets 6's.

Instead of 2 at every level we only end up with one more 6 through 9. Its like the decision to take domains away from the FS was made after its spells a day were nailed down.

Not much of a a gain in spells a day to make up for the delayed progression.

I know it seems like I'm dumping on the FS, and I kinda am, but I really really do want to like the class so much, its just that it ended up being so utterly terrible and that frustrates me even more since it could have so amazing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To be fair; as bad as it is, the favored soul is still a full caster drawing from the cleric list.

It's ultimately not -that- much worse than the cleric. Yes, strictly inferior but with proper handling it can be plenty dangerous to the party's enemies. It's the second most powerful of the T2 classes for pete's sake. Only the sorcerer stands above it.

[A_S]

You think FS is scarier than Psion? I'd give the edge to Psionics for all the action economy shenanigans, which are few and far between for divine casting.

[TypoNinja]

To be fair; as bad as it is, the favored soul is still a full caster drawing from the cleric list.

It's ultimately not -that- much worse than the cleric. Yes, strictly inferior but with proper handling it can be plenty dangerous to the party's enemies. It's the second most powerful of the T2 classes for pete's sake. Only the sorcerer stands above it.

Well yes, anything with full casting is a strong option it just frustrates me that the FS seems to be an attempt by its designers to find an exception.

One thing it does have going for it in the positive column is that it does get more spells known than the sorcerer.

[AMFV]

You think FS is scarier than Psion? I'd give the edge to Psionics for all the action economy shenanigans, which are few and far between for divine casting.

Also Psions can get more bang for their buck with fewer powers known, for example a Psion might ever only need 1 direct damage power, whereas a Sorcerer would be hard-pressed to get by with only one 1st level spell. Of course this hurts in Power Points spent later, but it does make the character more versatile.

Edit: To answer the OP Favored Souls don't have nearly as many unique tricks as Sorcerers do. Clerics have their own ways to cheese out metamagic and that hurts in comparison, also the MAD really really hurts direct damage type roles.

A good bet is to take levels in Holt Warden (which grants extra domain slots) so that way you could obtain more spells, although to be honest even gaining extra domains is pretty weak if you don't know those spells for free. I would guess that you'd have an advantage if you focused mostly on a few buffs/debuffs with some metamagics attached, that way you could take advantage of the spontaneous casting, although the MAD would probably wreck that option pretty heavily.

Certainly a dip in something to gain turning is an absolute necessity, DMM tricks (particularly empower, or maximize, or fell draining type shenanigans) are extremely good on a charisma based spontaneous chassis. Since Complete Divine is kosher I'd look into Sacred Exorcist, since that loses nothing, although it is a sadly late start for that type of thing. Then you can attach DMM to some metamagics and have a pseudo-mailman type build with the right metamagics. You could use Chain (to heal if you're still wanting that) or twin (pretty baller when it's free), you have the better chassis for metamagicing that should be the direction you go with it.

[Norin]

For Turn Undead, I'm guessing they had seen that the Sorcerer wasn't distinct enough from the Wizard, and were trying not to repeat the mistake. No Knowledge Religion is so absurd I can't believe it wasn't a typo, though.

"I am chosen of Pelor!"
"What do you stand for, then?"
"I... I have no idea!"

This made me laugh. It's quite absurd indeed.
Imagine Sorcerer with no Know. (Arcana). :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

You think FS is scarier than Psion? I'd give the edge to Psionics for all the action economy shenanigans, which are few and far between for divine casting.

Actually, I don't think about psionics when I'm thinking about casters. They're just different enough mechanically that they don't occur to me in the same way.

Now that you've brought them up, you're right. Psion puts the FS at third in the tier, which still puts them in the top 10 base classes in the tier list.

[Tvtyrant]

Just wanted to point out that Conjure Ice Beast III is an amazing spell for its level, and makes you a beast. 4 wolves with over 100 HP between them and auto-damage, or 2 Hippogrifs that do roughly 30 damage a round each, or a huge centipede that eats your enemies if they fail a DC 16 reflex save.

All of the options have a tremendous amount of HP compared to normal summons of that level, and do at least marginal auto-damage.

[TypoNinja]

Just wanted to point out that Conjure Ice Beast III is an amazing spell for its level, and makes you a beast. 4 wolves with over 100 HP between them and auto-damage, or 2 Hippogrifs that do roughly 30 damage a round each, or a huge centipede that eats your enemies if they fail a DC 16 reflex save.

All of the options have a tremendous amount of HP compared to normal summons of that level, and do at least marginal auto-damage.

But cleric can do it too, and a level sooner, so its still not really a point for FS.

[Tvtyrant]

But cleric can do it too, and a level sooner, so its still not really a point for FS.

FS are spontaneous, so they can spam them without tying up their slots as a dedicated summoner.

[Thurbane]

Well, I don't have much to add, just a quick observation:
You can buy metamagic rods to make up for the feats you could've chosen. A metamagic rod of lesser extend is cheap (3.000 gp) and helps a lot. Memento Magica from MIC is also an option, such as the Empowered Spellshard, also from MIC.
Metmagic rods are a great suggestion, thanks :)

(Sadly, that's not sarcasm. As I explained on another Favored Soul thread, the only reason I can think of for the lack of both Turn Undead and Knowledge(Religion) is that they deliberately wanted to keep Favored Souls from qualifying for any cool toys.)
It certainly feels that way. That or epically bad class design by someone who barely even played the game.

For Turn Undead, I'm guessing they had seen that the Sorcerer wasn't distinct enough from the Wizard, and were trying not to repeat the mistake. No Knowledge Religion is so absurd I can't believe it wasn't a typo, though.

"I am chosen of Pelor!"
"What do you stand for, then?"
"I... I have no idea!"
Yeah, that's a running gag with my character. I know Tiamat is the enemy of my god - but who or what Tiamat is, I barely have a clue. :P

I love the Idea of the Favored Soul. Divine Sorcerer would have been awesome. I'd play one.
That's the thing - on paper, the FS looks like a decent divine sorcerer - all good saves, d8 HD, medium BAB, armored casting, and more spells known.

In practice, a lot of that gets hosed by dual casting stats. Which to be fair, the DM was eventually willing to hand-waive.

Thurbane, a question:

How many encounters per day does your group tend to have? I feel like the sheer spells per day that an FS gets might make them more competitive when there's 4+ encounters per day.

Also, I agree with the sentiment that the class list your DM published should exclude Cleric if he wants it to be balanced and low-power.
We're generally getting through 3 or so a day, before me, the Cleric and the Warmage start getting low on spells.

The DM was a little misguided - it was more about getting people to play classes we don't generally see in our games than the power curve. But why threw cleric on there, I have no idea, as we have one in almost every game we have ever played.

What I didn't show is that the list was originally broken into two sections - there was preferred classes, and a second list of classes listed as "Not encouraged, but if people really want to take them". Cleric was on this list.

I guess I'm just frustrated with low point buy, having a Cleric in the party, and limited char gen resources. If a few more books were opened up, I could have built this character better from the ground up, and managed to get him to qualify for a PrC.

Yes, the Favored Soul is Tier 2, and as a standalone character class the spell list and full casting makes him a decent class. But stand him anywhere near a Cleric and he just looks kind of pathetic.

[Grim Reader]

Unfortunately I can't retcon the character abilities, feats or spells, and my sources (for feats, classes etc.) are strictly core plus Complete Divine (with the exception of SC for spell selection, and MIC for item selection). Class dips are further restricted to the list above - not that I'd really want to dip in another base class anyway.

This hurts. I am not sure how much help I can give with this in force, but if your DM was willing to giv you Cha-only based casting, he may be willing to be flexible? I'll put in some stuff just in case he'll bend a little.


I'd like something to give me some offensive capabilities if at all possible.

There is one trick you can do with a Favored Soul, that you can't with a Cleric. If you can get a spell-like ability or Arcane spell cast at caster level 5 (Hello Practiced Spellcaster), you've cleared the big hurdle to get into Sand Shaper. Desert Insight will add a buttload of spells to your list, including direct damage, summonings and buffs.

Good PrCs for Favored Souls are Knight of the Raven, Bone Knight and dipping Prestige Paladin.

You can get Turn Undead without dipping with two feats. Necromantic Bloodline and Kin Mastery from Dragon Companion. Note that by a strict reading of the rules, you won't get the spells known bonus from the first feat, and your turning level is iffy. DM may be willing to be flexible.

[AMFV]

Metmagic rods are a great suggestion, thanks :)

It certainly feels that way. That or epically bad class design by someone who barely even played the game.

Yeah, that's a running gag with my character. I know Tiamat is the enemy of my god - but who or what Tiamat is, I barely have a clue. :P

That's the thing - on paper, the FS looks like a decent divine sorcerer - all good saves, d8 HD, medium BAB, armored casting, and more spells known.

In practice, a lot of that gets hosed by dual casting stats. Which to be fair, the DM was eventually willing to hand-waive.

We're generally getting through 3 or so a day, before me, the Cleric and the Warmage start getting low on spells.

The DM was a little misguided - it was more about getting people to play classes we don't generally see in our games than the power curve. But why threw cleric on there, I have no idea, as we have one in almost every game we have ever played.

What I didn't show is that the list was originally broken into two sections - there was preferred classes, and a second list of classes listed as "Not encouraged, but if people really want to take them". Cleric was on this list.

I guess I'm just frustrated with low point buy, having a Cleric in the party, and limited char gen resources. If a few more books were opened up, I could have built this character better from the ground up, and managed to get him to qualify for a PrC.

Yes, the Favored Soul is Tier 2, and as a standalone character class the spell list and full casting makes him a decent class. But stand him anywhere near a Cleric and he just looks kind of pathetic.

It's why you need to play to your strengths, a Favored Souladin type build does stuff a cleric can't easily replicate. A mailman type FS build does things a cleric can't easily replicate. Hell you could apply the mailman theorum to healing spells and then use DMM to reduce the costs, basically becoming a powerful enough healer to make in combat healing worth it. With Chain Spell, Occular Spell, Repeat Spell and Twin Spell, you could make it so that you could actually heal on a level where it would be cost effective to do so, particularly with DMM.