"Unbreakable Vow" type spell

[littlebum2002]

I am in a campaign where I am trying to get information from someone, but they are not allowed to give it to me because they are afraid the information will end up in the wrong hands.

Obviously, promising them I'll be quiet isn't enough, so I need some sort of "Unbreakable Vow" spell. For those not familiar with Harry Potter, the Unbreakable Vow is here (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Unbreakable_Vow). You make a vow (in this case, I would vow not to repeat the information I have heard). If you break the vow, you die. Simple enough. Obviously, this probably won't exist as-is, but there has to be SOME sort of Vow spell in D&D, right? It seems like too common in fiction to not exist in D&D at all.

Of course, "you die if you break the vow" probably isn't very much of an incentive in D&D, because death is much less serious here than it is in Harry Potter.

[RMS Oceanic]

Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm) is the closest I can think of. You could homebrew a slightly stronger one where any deliberate attempt to not fulfil the terms of the vow results in instant death.

[Red Fel]

What about a contingent Painless Death spell, triggered upon disclosure of information? Painless Death causes one willing creature touched to die instantly. No save, no SR. In theory, if they're willing to make the vow, they're willing - at the time of casting - for Painless Death purposes.

The catch is that I'm pretty sure a contingent spell can be dispelled, or prevented by an AMF from triggering (unless being an instantaneous spell bypasses that).

[TETanglebrooke]

Craft a new spell called 'unbreakable vow' that does basically the same thing as contingency spell but can't be dispelled or disjuncted unless the holder of the vow releases you.

Or just invest in bluff and tell the person that you crafted that spell.

[Chronos]

A Mark of Justice could also serve the purpose, though the consequence is a lot less severe than death.

I imagine that any spell would be dispellable or something similar, though.

[Legendxp]

You could just have like 16 different people cast Geas on you with the same conditions.

[Fax Celestis]

The silver scimitar spell here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3661490&postcount=6) could suffice, esp. if you find a way to maximize it (metamagic rod, maybe?).

[Talya]

I think there's a spell in the BoEF that does this, but I'm at work...

[littlebum2002]

I like the Silver Scimitar, I'll base it off that one. But I'm definitely going to make it a death effect. I'm dealing with a goddess here, so I don't think she's going to reveal her secrets for a measly 11d6 damage (although that would almost certainly kill my character, but you know how deities are).

My DM approved me researching a spell! She happens to be a huge Harry Potter fan as well, so I think that may have had something to do with it. :smallwink:


Here it is! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16508178#post16508178)



I mean, Pepper is going to have to see an illusion of a noose around her neck for the rest of her life? That's pretty depressing.

[XmonkTad]

The spell you really want is Glibness. Lying is probably the best spell.

[Fax Celestis]

You should also look at infallible servant in Exemplars of Evil.

[Rubik]

Whoever casts the spell should be a StP erudite with the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat. That way, the only way to remove the spell is Mordenkainen's Disjunction, so long as it's not technically a "curse" (so that Remove Curse doesn't work). After all, supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled.

[edit] Ah. It's instantaneous.

Hmm. You could easily avoid the problems of being strangled to death through becoming undead or changing your physiology such that a broken neck and suffocation won't affect you. That, and becoming immune to mind-affecting things (such as Mind Blank). Technically not "unbreakable," though it's still quite effective most of the time.

[littlebum2002]

Wow, Infallible Servant is really...evil. Those Evil books always give me chills reading them.

Anyway, this is more of a Lawful spell than an Evil spell. Which is odd because my character is Chaotic. But anyway, I'm going to have to put a comment in there about being Raised. I wouldn't prevent the person from being Raised, again, that's pretty evil, but the spell shouldn't go away, either.


And I did steal this form the Silver Scimitar spell, but now that I think about it, both of these spells are very...dark. Having a noose around your neck, or a scimitar above your head your entire life? That's going to be very depressing.

[littlebum2002]

Whoever casts the spell should be a StP erudite with the Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) feat. That way, the only way to remove the spell is Mordenkainen's Disjunction, so long as it's not technically a "curse" (so that Remove Curse doesn't work). After all, supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled.

[edit] Ah. It's instantaneous.

Hmm. You could easily avoid the problems of being strangled to death through becoming undead or changing your physiology such that a broken neck and suffocation won't affect you. That, and becoming immune to mind-affecting things (such as Mind Blank). Technically not "unbreakable," though it's still quite effective most of the time.

That's a good point. Imagine being a Lich walking around forever with a noose tightened around your neck. Who cares?

The spell is good enough for what I need it for, but you're right, it could be bypassed by being undead. Let's hope my Gm doesn't think of that, because I'm sure the BBEG is going to try and get the information out of me in the future, and I REALLY don't want him/her to turn me undead to try and get information out of me.

[Rubik]

That's a good point. Imagine being a Lich walking around forever with a noose tightened around your neck. Who cares?

The spell is good enough for what I need it for, but you're right, it could be bypassed by being undead. Let's hope my Gm doesn't think of that, because I'm sure the BBEG is going to try and get the information out of me in the future, and I REALLY don't want him/her to turn me undead to try and get information out of me.Doesn't stop Speak With Dead, either, for that matter.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The spell you want is planar ally/binding. Arrange transportation for a kolyarut to get to you and sign a contract with the provider of the info with the kolyarut as witness and arbiter. If the wrath of mechanus isn't a sufficient deterrent to breach of contract, I don't know what is.

[Mr Adventurer]

If the secret in question relates to the Goddess' portfolio, then it's possible that in the case of your revealing it, she would already have known you were going to do that ahead of time. Being a goddess, she could therefore turn up before you reveal the secret and hit you with that Painless Death spell (or whatever godly effects she's got. Or drop a rock on you or whatever.) All you have to do is agree to let her, she's not doing anything wrong.

[lsfreak]

You're wanting an instantaneous spell that only has an effect after a certain period of time. You're not going to find one.

I'd suggest going a different route. Suggest or dominate the person into divulging the information and choose not to repeat it. Mindrape, if you have access to it, would also put them at ease of mind by making them believe it's still a secret, and in fact no one but you would ever know that someone else knows. A warlock's suggestion invocation (insidious whispers?) will make them believe it was their idea, but does nothing to stop it from driving them crazy that they told.

If you truly want an Unbreakable Vow type thing, the closest I could see would be a set of nested contingencies, CL boosted with as much cheese as you can afford (greater consumptive field, etc) to avoid dispelling. Things like Disjunction and Invoke Magic leading up to a Circle Magic-boosted Flesh to Salt.

[littlebum2002]

The spell you want is planar ally/binding. Arrange transportation for a kolyarut to get to you and sign a contract with the provider of the info with the kolyarut as witness and arbiter. If the wrath of mechanus isn't a sufficient deterrent to breach of contract, I don't know what is.

Ooh, that's a good one

[Scow2]

I reiterate Geas. The thing about its failure condition is that it only triggers if you involuntarily try to break the Geas. Otherwise, you cannot violate it at all. It's not "You can't do this or something bad will happen to you". It's flat-out "You cannot do this." If you try to do it, you don't do it. That's all there is to it.

[SiuiS]

I am in a campaign where I am trying to get information from someone, but they are not allowed to give it to me because they are afraid the information will end up in the wrong hands.

Obviously, promising them I'll be quiet isn't enough, so I need some sort of "Unbreakable Vow" spell. For those not familiar with Harry Potter, the Unbreakable Vow is here (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Unbreakable_Vow). You make a vow (in this case, I would vow not to repeat the information I have heard). If you break the vow, you die. Simple enough. Obviously, this probably won't exist as-is, but there has to be SOME sort of Vow spell in D&D, right? It seems like too common in fiction to not exist in D&D at all.

Of course, "you die if you break the vow" probably isn't very much of an incentive in D&D, because death is much less serious here than it is in Harry Potter.

Mark of Justice.

[hamishspence]

I reiterate Geas. The thing about its failure condition is that it only triggers if you involuntarily try to break the Geas. Otherwise, you cannot violate it at all. It's not "You can't do this or something bad will happen to you". It's flat-out "You cannot do this." If you try to do it, you don't do it. That's all there is to it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest.

Does that mean "does not attempt" comes with the precondition "because they are physically prevented from doing so, possibly by magic?"

[littlebum2002]

I reiterate Geas. The thing about its failure condition is that it only triggers if you involuntarily try to break the Geas. Otherwise, you cannot violate it at all. It's not "You can't do this or something bad will happen to you". It's flat-out "You cannot do this." If you try to do it, you don't do it. That's all there is to it.

I always thought geas was pretty weak. 3d6 damage per day? Even my wizard could handle that.


Mark of Justice.

Good one. Again, I would need to enhance it to increase the punishment, and reduce the things which can dispel it, which I kinda did anyway.



I made the spell, and my DM hinted that I probably went overboard. So in actuality, any of these would have worked. I totally forgot about the Mark of Justice. It's just that there are so many great spells like that in D&D, but they have such limited usage that when you actually need it you forget all about it.

[Scow2]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest.

Does that mean "does not attempt" comes with the precondition "because they are physically prevented from doing so, possibly by magic?"
Yes, in the Lesser Geas, on which Geas is based.

"The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a -2 penalty to each of its ability scores."

All the normal Geas does is change the penalty and remove the save.

The problem is it needs a self-resetting contingency to keep it from expiring.

[Talya]

I think there's a spell in the BoEF that does this, but I'm at work...

Okay, now that I'm at home, it was not a spell. It was a class feature of the "Knot-Binder" PrC, that is easily adaptable as a spell.



Inviolate Oath (Su): At 5th level, a knot binder of Kaladis gains the ability to create a mystical bond that requires the contractors to keep their word or suffer serious consequences. Once per day, a knot binder of Kaladis can cast geas/quest on all people within 30 feet who make a vow or sign some sort of contract. This can be a pledge to marriage, a legal contract or a vow of some kind. Once the vow or ritual is complete, the subjects must make a will save (DC 10 + Charisma modifier + class level of the knot binder of Kaladis). If one of the contractors ever willingly breaks the rules outlined, they are subject to a geas/quest spell until they return back to the proscribed behavior. This effect also ends if the contract is fulfilled or reaches a given period outlined in the contract or vow.

So basically it's a standard action SLA of Geas/Quest, Mass that requires the targets to agree to it.

[cakellene]

If the secret in question relates to the Goddess' portfolio, then it's possible that in the case of your revealing it, she would already have known you were going to do that ahead of time. Being a goddess, she could therefore turn up before you reveal the secret and hit you with that Painless Death spell (or whatever godly effects she's got. Or drop a rock on you or whatever.) All you have to do is agree to let her, she's not doing anything wrong.

Letting a deity do anything is amusing.

[Morithias]

Isn't there a Forbidden Speech spell in the BOVD? Level 5 corrupt spell?

[Slipperychicken]

To get the information:

1. Cast Detect Thoughts until he fails the save.

2. Ask about the information.

3. He thinks about the information in his surface thoughts (the Bluff DC to fake surface thoughts is 100, so just remind the DM of this and you should be fine).

4. You read the information off his thoughts

5. ???

6. PROFIT!!

-------------
To prevent BBEG from getting it out of you:

1. Cast Mindrape on yourself.

2. Wipe that specific information from your own memory, or replace it with something misleading to the BBEG.

3. ???

4. PROFIT!! SECRECY!!

[Morithias]

-------------
To prevent BBEG from getting it out of you:

1. Cast Mindrape on yourself.

2. Wipe that specific information from your own memory, or replace it with something misleading to the BBEG.

3. ???

4. PROFIT!! SECRECY!!

I love how this is the go-to answer for everything. "Toss a level 9 spell at it." Even if the PC is level 6 or something, some person like this will always pop in and go "Well cast Ice assassin, then cast mindrape, then etc, etc."

[Rubik]

I love how this is the go-to answer for everything. "Toss a level 9 spell at it." Even if the PC is level 6 or something, some person like this will always pop in and go "Well cast Ice assassin, then cast mindrape, then etc, etc."Scrolls without XP costs are cheap, and they're easy to use with a low level wizard. Even a firstie can use a 9th level scroll 25% of the time.

[Morithias]

Scrolls without XP costs are cheap, and they're easy to use with a low level wizard. Even a firstie can use a 9th level scroll 25% of the time.

*Sighs* Here we go again.

First off. Mindrape is a level 9 sorc/wiz spell.

Now please turn to page 139 of your DMG.

Please note the tables "Highest level locals" and "Community modifiers"

Modifier for a metropolis "+12 (roll four times)"

Highest-level locals for sorcerer and wizard "1d4 + community modifier"

It is RAW, impossible to find a wizard or sorcerer capable of casting level 9 magic in anything short of a planar metropolis.

I'm pretty sure in one of the books it even says that "finding a mage capable of casting 9th level magic should be an adventure in and of itself" or something along those lines.

Finding a level 9 spell for sale? Okay, I might be able to buy that.

Finding a scroll of MINDRAPE? One of the most immoral and possibly dangerous spells in all of existence, just for sale? Just randomly in a magic mart for you to buy?

Uh...no...not buying it.

[Rubik]

*Sighs* Here we go again.

First off. Mindrape is a level 9 sorc/wiz spell.

Now please turn to page 139 of your DMG.

Please note the tables "Highest level locals" and "Community modifiers"

Modifier for a metropolis "+12 (roll four times)"

Highest-level locals for sorcerer and wizard "1d4 + community modifier"

It is RAW, impossible to find a wizard or sorcerer capable of casting level 9 magic in anything short of a planar metropolis.

I'm pretty sure in one of the books it even says that "finding a mage capable of casting 9th level magic should be an adventure in and of itself" or something along those lines.

Finding a level 9 spell for sale? Okay, I might be able to buy that.

Finding a scroll of MINDRAPE? One of the most immoral and possibly dangerous spells in all of existence, just for sale? Just randomly in a magic mart for you to buy?

Uh...no...not buying it.With a nomad psion around, you can hit Sigil by level 5, or even earlier, and you can find nearly anything in Sigil. Mostly it's a matter of money.

And there's nothing Evil about the function of Mindrape. The alignment tag is purely arbitrary, and there are lots of Good and Neutral uses for the spell that don't harm anyone.

[Morithias]

With a nomad psion around, you can hit Sigil by level 5, or even earlier, and you can find nearly anything in Sigil. Mostly it's a matter of money.

And there's nothing Evil about the function of Mindrape. The alignment tag is purely arbitrary, and there are lots of Good and Neutral uses for the spell that don't harm anyone.

The fact that you can use it for good or neutral means doesn't stop it from being a spell that you could use to turn the princess of the country into a love-stuck, grovelling, sex-slave housewife within 6 seconds.

I mean there's probably a good use for something like a apocalypse from the sky spell, but you don't see people arguing we should be able to purchase those now do you?

It's the fact that it's such a potent spell that makes it dangerous as all hell, and therefore EXTREMELY questionable to sell.

Personally the thing I find most absurd about the "Magic-mart" isn't that the items are there, but that's there's NO REGULATION OF THEM.

Also just speaking realistically. Is his DM really going to say yes to him going "I go buy a scroll of mindrape from the shop down the street?"

[Rubik]

Two words: Dominate Person.

[Morithias]

Two words: Dominate Person.

Four words. DC 20 Sense Motive.

[Rubik]

Four words. DC 20 Sense Motive.Which has nothing at all to do with Dominating someone to keep as your sex slave, or if the Dominated person has a high Bluff or Perform: Acting skill (which you should be able to command them to use to "act normally"). Which, of course, isn't entirely RAW, but I don't see any reason whatsoever why it wouldn't work -- unless they don't have those skills, of course, which is entirely possible.

However, there are any number of ways to do horrifically evil things using Dominate, Charm Person, or even a Good-aligned Summon Monster spell which pulls in an angel of some sort. Force the angelic being of pure goodness to torture orphans, and it has no means of resisting.

Mindrape has no reason to be Evil, since it's easy to use the spell for non-Evil means. Nor is it using the Cosmic Forces of Evil to do anything. It's purely arbitrary, just like Deathwatch.

[TuggyNE]

*Sighs* Here we go again.

First off. Mindrape is a level 9 sorc/wiz spell.

Now please turn to page 139 of your DMG.

Please note the tables "Highest level locals" and "Community modifiers"

Modifier for a metropolis "+12 (roll four times)"

Highest-level locals for sorcerer and wizard "1d4 + community modifier"

It is RAW, impossible to find a wizard or sorcerer capable of casting level 9 magic in anything short of a planar metropolis.

I'm pretty sure in one of the books it even says that "finding a mage capable of casting 9th level magic should be an adventure in and of itself" or something along those lines.

All that applies to finding an NPC to cast the spell for you, which is not the same thing as finding a scroll. In fact, scrolls, even of high-level spells, should be far more common than high-level casters able to cast them, simply because (wait for it) each such caster can and reasonably might scribe many copies for sale over the years!

Not that I particularly suppose mindrape scrolls would necessarily be for sale without significant effort to find a dodgy supplier somewhere, but your line of argument is rather specious.

[cakellene]

Two words: Dominate Person.

Aren't deities outsiders and thus immune to dominate person?

[Morithias]

All that applies to finding an NPC to cast the spell for you, which is not the same thing as finding a scroll. In fact, scrolls, even of high-level spells, should be far more common than high-level casters able to cast them, simply because (wait for it) each such caster can and reasonably might scribe many copies for sale over the years!

Not that I particularly suppose mindrape scrolls would necessarily be for sale without significant effort to find a dodgy supplier somewhere, but your line of argument is rather specious.

Or less common, because they need to keep them in stock, which means keeping in stock an incredibly dangerous and probably illegal in basically every country known to man spell.

[unseenmage]

Or less common, because they need to keep them in stock, which means keeping in stock an incredibly dangerous and probably illegal in basically every country known to man spell.

Finding magic items is covered in the Magic item Compendium. It takes an hour for a Gather Info check per item. That's it. MIC page 232.

If you prefer a lower magic game that's fine. But the RAW in this instance is that magic items are necessary for the world of basic D&D to function.

That and Artificer's exist. Even without optimization they get 9th level spells way sooner than you think.


By the way there's a suggested houserule in the DMG you might like. Restricts PCs to buying no single item which costs more than 1/4 their WBL.
Sadly, it's only a suggestion, and is only called out as applying to the generation of higher level PCs.

Edit: Oh yeah, and ther is a non-evil Spell Compendium Mindrape spell called Programmed Amnesia.

[Morithias]

Edit: Oh yeah, and ther is a non-evil Spell Compendium Mindrape spell called Programmed Amnesia.

Which any logical ruler would keep just as illegal.

If anything the nobles should be more afraid of mind control and mental rewriting than death.

[Mutazoia]

All that applies to finding an NPC to cast the spell for you, which is not the same thing as finding a scroll. (snip)
Not that I particularly suppose mindrape scrolls would necessarily be for sale without significant effort to find a dodgy supplier somewhere, but your line of argument is rather specious.

So your argument that finding a scroll of Mindrape will be a lot easier than finding a guy who can cast Mindrape (and thus be able to scribe it for you) because that one guy is going to be sitting around cranking out copies of said scroll all day long is NOT specious?


Finding magic items is covered in the Magic item Compendium. It takes an hour for a Gather Info check per item. That's it. MIC page 232.

If you prefer a lower magic game that's fine. But the RAW in this instance is that magic items are necessary for the world of basic D&D to function.

That rule of for finding a magic item, of which hundreds if not thousands of copies may exist in game...kind of like hopping on the internet to find out who's selling the new Chrome Book. A +1 sword is necessary for the world of D&D to function. A scroll of Mindrape is not. A specific scroll of a rare, evil spell that can turn the King into your slave...your not going to just be able to pop down to Bob's Brau Bar and ask the local snitch who's carrying a copy.


That and Artificer's exist. Even without optimization they get 9th level spells way sooner than you think.

Sure...they exist. If your playing in Eberron. Even if you are (or they are allowed), Artificer's are a prestige class, making them as rare as some one who can just cast the spell for you. Plus you assume that Mages and Artificers have mindrape automatically pop into their heads at the necessary level...

The solution of:

1. Prestige Class appears!
2. Cheese happens!
3. PROFIT!

Seems to be rather rampant.

[jindra34]

Mutazozia: Eberon Artificers are a base class not a prestige class. So that does make them more common...

[Evandar]

This thread has been derailed so hard. Suffice it to say that Mindrape would get the job done and the availability of the scroll itself depends largely on how the DM feels magic should be regulate.

I don't like Mindrape as a solution to these questions because I feel like resorting to 9th level spells is pretty brute-forcey in many cases, but it's certainly a valid option. Silver Scimitar seems pretty good. There's nothing stopping a deity from casting a ton of Silver Scimitars, is there? One or two triggered by divulging the secret, and some others set to go off on "attempts to get the scimitars dispelled".

Someone earlier also mentioned throwing out a bunch of Geas spells. That might be weirdly appropriate in one of those stereotypical cultist rituals, with stone altars and circles of chanting people.

[hamishspence]

*Sighs* Here we go again.

First off. Mindrape is a level 9 sorc/wiz spell.

Now please turn to page 139 of your DMG.

Please note the tables "Highest level locals" and "Community modifiers"

Modifier for a metropolis "+12 (roll four times)"

Highest-level locals for sorcerer and wizard "1d4 + community modifier"

It is RAW, impossible to find a wizard or sorcerer capable of casting level 9 magic in anything short of a planar metropolis.

Actually, if you're using Planar Metropolises at all, you might also be using the Epic Handbook community modifiers. Which are somewhat higher.

+16, in the case of a metropolis.

[Slipperychicken]

I love how this is the go-to answer for everything. "Toss a level 9 spell at it." Even if the PC is level 6 or something, some person like this will always pop in and go "Well cast Ice assassin, then cast mindrape, then etc, etc."

Littlebum (the OP) didn't specify a level or a class. I regret nothing.

[Rubik]

Aren't deities outsiders and thus immune to dominate person?That was a point made against, "Mindrape is [Evil] because you can turn someone into your sex slave! It's EEEEEVIL!"

Dominate Person can do exactly that, and it's not [Evil], because you can do non-Evil things with it, and it doesn't tap into primordial Evil energies.

That's why the tag on Mindrape is stupid, because there's nothing inherently Evil about the spell. It can be used for a number of reasonable purposes, such as educating others (including transferring knowledge of spells), blunting (or erasing) life-shattering and traumatic memories at the intended target's request, repairing an abused and delicate psyche, giving someone a personality trait they've always wanted (or the converse), and so on.

Yes, it's easily abusable. I'm not refuting that. But so are most of the rest of the spells in the game, and I'm not going to try to argue that Finger of Death should be [Evil] because using it is likely to orphan someone and cause them pain.

[hamishspence]

Wasn't the nonevil version of that spell called Programmed Amnesia (in Spell Compendium)- and cost the caster XP, as well as taking much longer to do its work?

[Slipperychicken]

That's why the tag on Mindrape is stupid, because there's nothing inherently Evil about the spell. It can be used for a number of reasonable purposes, such as educating others (including transferring knowledge of spells), blunting (or erasing) life-shattering and traumatic memories at the intended target's request, repairing an abused and delicate psyche, giving someone a personality trait they've always wanted (or the converse) and so on.


I figured the liberal use of the [Evil] tag was to justify having a whole book about goodies exclusive to evil characters.

[unseenmage]

Wasn't the nonevil version of that spell called Programmed Amnesia (in Spell Compendium)- and cost the caster XP, as well as taking much longer to do its work?

I believe you're right, but it also comes with more guidelines about how it works. The Mindrape spell is woefully 3.0 and comes with fewer restrictions as such.

[TuggyNE]

So your argument that finding a scroll of Mindrape will be a lot easier than finding a guy who can cast Mindrape (and thus be able to scribe it for you) because that one guy is going to be sitting around cranking out copies of said scroll all day long is NOT specious?

No, it's pretty straightforward supply and demand. If there's anyone around in the economy capable of casting mindrape, then they will probably be selling scrolls of it, illegally if necessary (it's not as though "it's illegal!" is going to stop all trade in black magic), and at a substantial markup (though D&D does not model this well). Such scrolls, because there are far more of them (1/month, perhaps, for a couple of years, quickly adds up), because they do not inherently expose the creator to legal repercussions or risks, and because they are far more fungible, are going to be substantially easier to find.

Whether that means they are "easy" to find is an entirely different matter. Chances are they'll be quite difficult to track down. However, finding a spellcaster who can cast it would be an order of magnitude harder.

[Mutazoia]

No, it's pretty straightforward supply and demand. If there's anyone around in the economy capable of casting mindrape, then they will probably be selling scrolls of it, illegally if necessary (it's not as though "it's illegal!" is going to stop all trade in black magic), and at a substantial markup (though D&D does not model this well). Such scrolls, because there are far more of them (1/month, perhaps, for a couple of years, quickly adds up), because they do not inherently expose the creator to legal repercussions or risks, and because they are far more fungible, are going to be substantially easier to find.

Supply and Demand. You assume that there is enough of a demand for Mindrape scrolls that our hypothetical manufacturer is going to spend the time and resources making 1 Mindrape scroll per month for "a couple of years". For there to be enough of a demand to justify that kind of expense and effort, you would first have to have a large number of people that even knew the spell existed, but are unable to cast/scribe it themselves, and were solvent enough to be able to afford a scroll of that nature. After all why should Scrollbot the Magnificent spend two years turning out 24 scrolls of Mindrape if he can only expect to sell 1 scroll every decade or so?


Whether that means they are "easy" to find is an entirely different matter. Chances are they'll be quite difficult to track down. However, finding a spellcaster who can cast it would be an order of magnitude harder.

Again...this assumes mass production of a product that would be in relatively short demand. Rather like a mage in the tropics spending all his time enchanting rings of warmth.

[Traab]

Why would a wizard capable of casting/scribing these spells even need the money at that point anyways? I mean, realistically speaking, at those levels the npc is a virtual demigod, more than capable of creating anything he wants or needs and has far more effective methods of gaining obscene amounts of money than scribing random level 9 spells and hoping someone buys them.

[Rubik]

Why would a wizard capable of casting/scribing these spells even need the money at that point anyways? I mean, realistically speaking, at those levels the npc is a virtual demigod, more than capable of creating anything he wants or needs and has far more effective methods of gaining obscene amounts of money than scribing random level 9 spells and hoping someone buys them.Note that it's quite easy to use Planar Binding and an efreeti to Wish a scroll of it up any time you need one. Convincing such a being to help shouldn't be too hard either, once you offer to make one Wish on its behalf for two uncorrupted Wishes on yours.

[Morithias]

Note that it's quite easy to use Planar Binding and an efreeti to Wish a scroll of it up any time you need one. Convincing such a being to help shouldn't be too hard either, once you offer to make one Wish on its behalf for two uncorrupted Wishes on yours.

Why should it help you?

You ripped it from it's home on the basis that you can demand service from it, in-exchange for what? A power it already has?

Quite frankly the instant someone tried that in my game. I would have the wish conjour up a rival wizard with the scroll in his hand and a surprise round to use it on you.

Edit: Oh and btw

"The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier)."

"Via dimensional travel."

Uh...don't genies have plane-shift as a spell-like?

[Rubik]

Why should it help you?

You ripped it from it's home on the basis that you can demand service from it, in-exchange for what? A power it already has?

Quite frankly the instant someone tried that in my game. I would have the wish conjour up a rival wizard with the scroll in his hand and a surprise round to use it on you.Note that efreet cannot use Wishes for themselves, first off.

Second, just be polite to the efreeti that you call, say that you'll offer it the service of making a Wish on its behalf if it's amenable. Otherwise, you'll send it back immediately with a Wish barring anyone else calling or summoning it ever again (through a continuous item of Dimensional Lock, if nothing else).

If it agrees to give you two uncorrupted Wishes in exchange for a Wish for its behalf, feel free to offer to repeat the process at convenient prearranged times in the future so you both benefit. It has absolutely zero reason to screw you over, because it screws itself over by doing so, and it had the option of opting out immediately. If it does decide to be stupid and screw you over with either of the first two Wishes, feel free to apologize to the wizard it called in, then use your next Wish for the wizard to be sent back where he came from without harm. If you have a Wish left, feel free to punish the efreeti in whatever way you see fit. Otherwise, use your other spell slots to debuff the hell out of it and mind crush it using the opposed Cha check and force it to agree to your terms (which are considerably less harmless than they otherwise would be). It definitely won't like the terms you set for it then.

It really isn't difficult for any wizard worth his spell slots.

[Edit]
Edit: Oh and btw

"The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier)."

"Via dimensional travel."

Uh...don't genies have plane-shift as a spell-like?Do note that blocking planar travel is easy, and it's even called out in Lesser Planar Binding on how to make it effective. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm)

[cakellene]

Why should it help you?

You ripped it from it's home on the basis that you can demand service from it, in-exchange for what? A power it already has?

Quite frankly the instant someone tried that in my game. I would have the wish conjour up a rival wizard with the scroll in his hand and a surprise round to use it on you.

Edit: Oh and btw

"The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier)."

"Via dimensional travel."

Uh...don't genies have plane-shift as a spell-like?

In which case you should have it refuse the deal. But to give a lawful creatures word that will not corrupt the wishes and then have it corrupt them anyway is a **** DM move.

[Morithias]

Screw it. I'm done with 3.5

I'm sorry the magic abuse has gone too far and is too abused.

[Emperor Tippy]

Finding a scroll of MINDRAPE? One of the most immoral and possibly dangerous spells in all of existence, just for sale? Just randomly in a magic mart for you to buy?

Uh...no...not buying it.

A level 11 Warlock can make a scroll of any Arcane spell in the game. Including one of Mindrape.

And getting access to a Planar Metropolis is not hard. Union is just a Plane Shift away. The same with the City of Brass.

---
My preferred RAW method of binding contracts is a Craft Contingent Mind Rape set to trigger on any attempt to pass the information on to an unauthorized individual that just wipes out the information.

It's not perfect (there are a number of ways around it) but its about the best that RAW can do.

That being said, I've homebrewed a number of vow type spells over the years of varying levels, penalties, and classes.

[Sith_Happens]

Isn't there a Forbidden Speech spell in the BOVD? Level 5 corrupt spell?

Yep, and it's exactly what the OP wants, besides being dispellable.

[lsfreak]

...did I seriously just read an argument that there wouldn't be enough demand for a spell when the whole argument started with a complaint that it's the answer to everything?

[TuggyNE]

...did I seriously just read an argument that there wouldn't be enough demand for a spell when the whole argument started with a complaint that it's the answer to everything?

Probably. Don't let it get to you. :smalltongue:

[Mutazoia]

...did I seriously just read an argument that there wouldn't be enough demand for a spell when the whole argument started with a complaint that it's the answer to everything?

Not quite...you read an argument that started with a complaint that the spell is listed as EVIL and would most likely be outlawed by any sane government...which became "it's going to be hard to find some one to cast it for you....which then moved on to "hey a bunch of guys will spend 2 years to make a crap ton of the scrolls and keep them on hand"...which lead to "who the hell is going to buy enough of these scrolls to justify some shmuck (let alone a bunch of schmucks) spending 2 years making said crap ton (and little else) when said spell would be rare and relatively unheard of, and probably mean getting your hair cut just below the chin for having one, let alone USING it."

Basic argument as it stands: Finding a scroll will be easier than finding a caster because an Artificer will spend 2 years of his life cooking them up like pop corn VS. Why the hell would he think he could sell 2 years worth of rare, outlawed (EVIL) scrolls.


Screw it. I'm done with 3.5

I'm sorry the magic abuse has gone too far and is too abused.

It's not all as munchkin as you find on this Forum. 90% of what you read here is more an exercise in theory, but unless you have an extreme munchkin gaming group you probably won't see any of this total cheese in an actual game. Think of anything you read (game breaking wise) on here as a PSA on what to look out for/what not to allow if you start a campaign.

[TuggyNE]

Not quite...you read an argument that started with a complaint that the spell is listed as EVIL and would most likely be outlawed by any sane government...which became "it's going to be hard to find some one to cast it for you....which then moved on to "hey a bunch of guys will spend 2 years to make a crap ton of the scrolls and keep them on hand"...which lead to "who the hell is going to buy enough of these scrolls to justify some shmuck (let alone a bunch of schmucks) spending 2 years making said crap ton (and little else) when said spell would be rare and relatively unheard of, and probably mean getting your hair cut just below the chin for having one, let alone USING it."

Basic argument as it stands: Finding a scroll will be easier than finding a caster because an Artificer will spend 2 years of his life cooking them up like pop corn VS. Why the hell would he think he could sell 2 years worth of rare, outlawed (EVIL) scrolls.

And as we all know, there is absolutely no demand for black market horribly evil products that corrupt those who use them. So little demand that no one has ever gotten rich smuggling or dealing them, nor spent a bit of time* to build up stocks.

Oh wait.


*Initial suggestion was 4 days' work/month. And a month has, what, seven days in it or something, right? No, wait, that's something else.

[Legendxp]

Someone earlier also mentioned throwing out a bunch of Geas spells. That might be weirdly appropriate in one of those stereotypical cultist rituals, with stone altars and circles of chanting people.

Back on track, that was me!! :smalltongue:

Is there a rule somewhere that disallows spell stacking? I know there's one on the contingency spell.

[Rubik]

How about a Bestow Curse, wherein whenever the character attempts to divulge the secret, he goes mute instead? If he attempts to speak via sign language, he's paralyzed.