A Just Curious Gestalt Question

[Houndour]

What are the best Gestalt combinations in 3.5 and PF and you can mix for 3.P fun.

List your considered best Gestalts for the following:
Melee build

Gish Build

Spellcaster Build

Party Face

Skill Monkey

Most Unique (Like Cleric Bard, a singing Cleric in battle is oddly amusing)

[AstralFire]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Psion//Wilder/Anarchic Initiate is criminally underrated in its simplicity and power: decide which stat you wish to dump, use the associated side only for powers where you don't need good save DCs or high level powers, Wild Surge nearly at your leisure.

Most of the time, you can play with basically no prep time and ease back on your powers. When it's necessary, you go supernova with the action economy.

You can also do this with Psion//Psychic Warrior instead, for less Nova shenanigans (though still a good amount) and huge power flexibility thanks to all those feats.

[Kaje]

Melee: Hulkbuster
Warforged Charger War Hulk 9 / Hulking Hurler 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 2 // SLT Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Warblade 1 / Warforged Juggernaut 5 / Frenzied Berserker 10

Gish: FIREBALL STAB ATTACK!
Dwarf Rogue 1 / Monk 1 / Duskblade 13 / Warblade 3 / Bloodstorm Blade 2 // Wizard 5 / Runesmith 1 / Enlightened Fist 7 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Wizard 2

[AmberVael]

For skill monkey, I'd definitely say Archivist//Factotum.

Factotum is well... obvious. All class skills, cunning knowledge, good skill points, int focused. It is the definitive skill monkey class.

I'd say Archivist on the other side not only because the two mesh well together (Int focus, gives you a decent chassis overall, and the fluff is frankly perfect), but because divine spellcasting is really nice for skill boosting. Divine Insight is a great spell for skill monkeys, and you can also make use of Surge of Fortune and eventually even Moment of Prescience. And spellcasting in general can supplement your power and skills nicely.

Together, it gives you a class that is a master of skills and knowledge, and even has a more cryptic lore feel to it- it just works out from every angle.

[Mr Adventurer]

Wizard|Warblade.

[Houndour]

Mr A why is that? Some of the others have either given full builds or explained their answer. I am just curious.

[AstralFire]

Mr A why is that? Some of the others have either given full builds or explained their answer. I am just curious.

Warblade covers the other most important save (other two, really, given Int to Reflex), gives you a great hit dice, and strong BAB; it's basically the "classic" good gestalt, in that it shores up all of your weaknesses on either side, matching survivability to utility.

But IMO, it's not that good of a Gestalt; from an optimal standpoint, you'll strictly prefer either hitting people or casting at them, and the two sides are at odds. If I was playing someone who wanted to cast a lot, I'd rather do Monk//Wizard with Kung Fu Genius (Int for Wis on Monk things) to pick up survivability, or if I was playing a melee and wanted significant self-buffage and utility I'd rather go Warblade//Psion, since Psions get more ways to natively improve their action economy and allow you to cast while hitting people in the same round.

[Houndour]

So what are good offsides classes?
I heard Dragon Shaman is good and so is Monk because they have a lot of passive effects.

What other ones?

[Mr Adventurer]

Warblade covers the other most important save (other two, really, given Int to Reflex), gives you a great hit dice, and strong BAB; it's basically the "classic" good gestalt, in that it shores up all of your weaknesses on either side, matching survivability to utility.

But IMO, it's not that good of a Gestalt; from an optimal standpoint, you'll strictly prefer either hitting people or casting at them, and the two sides are at odds. If I was playing someone who wanted to cast a lot, I'd rather do Monk//Wizard with Kung Fu Genius (Int for Wis on Monk things) to pick up survivability, or if I was playing a melee and wanted significant self-buffage and utility I'd rather go Warblade//Psion, since Psions get more ways to natively improve their action economy and allow you to cast while hitting people in the same round.

Except a Warblade can easily take nothing but Counters and Boosts to preserve their action economy, while also giving you the baseline stuff and alternative options that a double caster doesn't.

[Kennisiou]

Really Factotum|Any int-based class is super good. Factotum|Warblade gives skill points and SLAs to let them have out-of-combat utility and cunning surge + maneuvers is kinda nuts. Maybe dip 3 levels swashbuckler for even more int to damage.

Factotum|Wizard is more health, more BaB, more skill points, an improved reflex save, and cunning surge lets them dish out spells everywhere.

Factotum|Artificer is easily the best craftsman in the game... well, aside from Factotum|Psi-Artificer.

Factotum|Duskblade's a pretty nice build, don't need full attack channeling to channel more than one spell a turn. Swap out duskblade or factotum levels with other solid gish classes to season to taste.

Factotum|Ranger/Scout is a seriously great archery build. You get the best of Factotum archery and Swift Hunter archery, keep pumping out standard actions to Greater Manyshot tons of arrows with lots of +d6s of damage attached. Consider picking up some kung-fu genius monk levels on the factotum side for Tippy archer monk movement speed shenanigans.

There are definitely some redundant ones, though. Factotum|other skill monkey class is a pretty bad choice. You gain nothing from Fact|Rogue, Fact|Psi-Rogue, or Fact|Beguiler, really. Fact|Bard could be interesting, but I just can't see it doing anything really new.

There's also just good gestalts with Factotum that involve not int, but rather one of the factotum's other core stats (dex or Cha). Factotum|Warlock with a gnomish quickrazor can channel eldritch blast through a weapon attack as a standard action. Get your foes flatfooted and you get iajutsu focus on top of it. The damage output is pretty great, although the downside is your hitdie's only a d8 and this is a melee build.

Factotum|Hexblade (with the fix) gets perfect saves, full BaB, good out of combat utility from Factotum SLAs and skills, and a ton of ability to debuff and dish out melee damage between Factotum's sneak attacks and Hexblade's hexbladyness.

Crusader and Swordsage can also gestalt with Factotum well, although are probably just worse Warblades. Still, powering through all your Crusader maneuvers in a single turn to refresh them next turn seems like it could be a funny strategy, and a dex-based tripping swordsage has a lot to gain from factotum's class features.

[Houndour]

Very nice thanks for all the info.

Can you explain the Crusader one a little better? How does it power through all of its maneuvers in a single turn? You mean IP noving?

Fact/Warblade actually sounds kinda awesome to be honest.

Any other classes as sweet at the Factotum?

[AstralFire]

Except a Warblade can easily take nothing but Counters and Boosts to preserve their action economy, while also giving you the baseline stuff and alternative options that a double caster doesn't.

I'm AFB, what boost maneuvers does a Wizard benefit from? Can't think of any besides Moment of Alacrity. The Diamond Counters are pretty good synergy with a caster, though, you have a point there.


Very nice thanks for all the info.

Can you explain the Crusader one a little better? How does it power through all of its maneuvers in a single turn? You mean IP noving?

Fact/Warblade actually sounds kinda awesome to be honest.

Any other classes as sweet at the Factotum?

The Factotum is arguably the most powerful non-T1 class in the game, due to its sheer versatility. I think it's incredibly boring and has no identity, personally (nor can I make much sense of it), but it makes almost every gestalt better in a way that you can't say about any other class I can think of.

[Houndour]

It would seem so, I do like the functionality it gives.
btw which book is the Swashbuckler from? The D&D tools site is down and I wanted to see if I owned it.

[AmberVael]

So what are good offsides classes?
I heard Dragon Shaman is good and so is Monk because they have a lot of passive effects.

What other ones?

I probably wouldn't go for either of those- dragon shaman doesn't give a lot, and monk is... monk. A couple levels of monk can be beneficial, admittedly, but you don't want to invest heavily in it.

Here are the "offside" classes I like:

Factotum. For one, it boosts your skills, which is good. For another, spending inspiration isn't an action, so you can get most of the factotum boosts without taking up precious actions. For another, Cunning Surge. Instead of losing actions, you actually gain actions- and that can be even more amazing when you have more options than the default factotum has to draw from.

Incarnate or Totemist. While I love incarnum, it rarely gives you any new options in how to use your actions- it mostly just buffs old actions, which can be kinda boring. In gestalt though, you can really turn that to your advantage. At most an incarnum class requires you to use your swift action to change around essentia, and in return gives you tons of powers that you can switch around as you desire.

Warlock. Warlock gets a lot of all day buffs that can be nice to have, and since everything you get from warlock is at will, it means you always have something to do. It isn't super powerful, but it can work with a lot of builds and if done right, gives a decent amount for next to no investment.

Binder. Binder is similar to Warlock- it doesn't take a lot of investment, its powers are largely at will, and there is a lot of passive stuff it can add. Another bonus is that, unlike Warlock, you can swap out your powers as you need them. Not a bad pick overall.

[AstralFire]

It would seem so, I do like the functionality it gives.
btw which book is the Swashbuckler from? The D&D tools site is down and I wanted to see if I owned it.

Complete Warrior.

[Rebel7284]

Melee build
Cloistered Cleric // Factotum/Warblade

Gish Build
Wizard/Swiftblade // Factotum/Wizard

Spellcaster Build
Wizard/Incantatrix // Factotum/Chameleon

Party Face
Factotum/Exemplar // Anything

Skill Monkey
Factotum/Exemplar // Anything

Most Unique (Like Cleric Bard, a singing Cleric in battle is oddly amusing)
Spellthief 1/spellcasting class 1 [repeat] // Wizard + PrCs

Use Master Spellthief + http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Theurgic_Specialist

For caster level in the hundreds in one school. :)

Edit: and yes, factotum 8 fits into nearly any gestalt build.

[Houndour]

I am curious how the Warblade//Factotum would work with the Swashbuckler? Should it be on the Factotum side or shared between the sides?

Lets use level 5 to show it so I can figure out a cool build off that.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm AFB, what boost maneuvers does a Wizard benefit from? Can't think of any besides Moment of Alacrity. The Diamond Counters are pretty good synergy with a caster, though, you have a point there.



The Factotum is arguably the most powerful non-T1 class in the game, due to its sheer versatility. I think it's incredibly boring and has no identity, personally (nor can I make much sense of it), but it makes almost every gestalt better in a way that you can't say about any other class I can think of.

Ignoring Diamond Mind and looking at counters and boosts... basically every counter and boost. You're a gish after all.

[Kennisiou]

Melee build
Cloistered Cleric // Factotum/Warblade

Gish Build
Wizard/Swiftblade // Factotum/Wizard

Spellcaster Build
Wizard/Incantatrix // Factotum/Chameleon

Party Face
Factotum/Exemplar // Anything

Skill Monkey
Factotum/Exemplar // Anything

Most Unique (Like Cleric Bard, a singing Cleric in battle is oddly amusing)
Spellthief 1/spellcasting class 1 [repeat] // Wizard + PrCs

Use Master Spellthief + http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Theurgic_Specialist

For caster level in the hundreds in one school. :)

Edit: and yes, factotum 8 fits into nearly any gestalt build.


Just a note: under standard gestalt rules you can't take levels in two prestige classes at once, so the Factotum/chameleon|Wizard/Incantatrix doesn't let you get full cham/incant levels (and same for your other multiprestige builds). This rule and its spotty enforcement is why I tend not to recommend prestiging on more than one side much gestalt, because I don't know whether the DM will enforce that rule.


I am curious how the Warblade//Factotum would work with the Swashbuckler? Should it be on the Factotum side or shared between the sides?

Lets use level 5 to show it so I can figure out a cool build off that.

It depends what you want in the long run. If you want to be a jack of all trades skill monkey more than a combatant or to take levels in a common factotum prestige class (like Chameleon or Exemplar) then you'll want to take swashbuckler on the warblade side, since all you really miss out on is the dual stance capstone. If you like dual stance and don't mind losing skill points and access to the factotum capstone Cunning Brilliance (actually level 19 but whatever) or if you plan to take a tome of battle prestige class like Bloodstorm Blade (or any other classes if you can find some way to get access into them, I guess) then swashbuckler goes on the factotum side. If you level swashbuckler on the warblade side, take it early (maybe even right away) since warblades continue to get better at their maneuvers even if you don't level it, meaning waiting to level in warblade is not a bad idea. If you're doing it on the factotum side, wait until you have 8 levels of factotum, then grab 3 swashbuckler levels and take the final nine levels in prestige classes or other base classes.

So your level 5 will probably either look like

Factotum 1|Swashbuckler 1
Factotum 2|Swashbuckler 2
Factotum 3|Swashbuckler 3
Factotum 4|Warblade 1
Factotum 5|Warblade 2

As for what this lets you do... All skills are class skills, once a day on any skill roll for a skill you have at least one rank in you can add your factotum level to the roll, int to damage on anything with discernible anatomy with your melee attacks, access to 2nd level maneuvers (3rd level initiator). Because of how initiator level growth works, you can even take another level in a non-initiator class and still reach the same level (18), so you can dip for a level of fighter for a bonus feat to take, like, weapon specialization or something that isn't on the warblade's list instead of taking the warblade's level 17 bonus feat. Or early on grab a ranger level for free TWF since int to damage and two weapon fighting work nicely together (going swashbuckler 3, ranger 1, warblade 1 still gives you the same initiator level at every level and thus the same maneuver access), although it will be a bit feat taxing if you want to progress with it past just the first extra attack (and stat taxing since you will need the 17 dex for the next two feats). Still, TWF Warblade isn't a bad build and factotum and swashbuckler improve it nicely, since you can full attack for TWF damage then extra standard action to move or extra standard action to initiate a maneuver.

The other option is just take factotum and warblade levels until level 8. This means you'll always have full initiator levels (level 3 maneuver access at level 5), more health, and means you'll eventually get the awesome dual stance warblade capstone at level 20 (or the capstone of whatever tome of battle prestige class you choose).

Also, as was mentioned earlier feel free to stop leveling as a factotum past level 8. More skill points, inspiration points, and SLAs/day are definitely nice, but if you think you'd get something better from a prestige class like chameleon then go for it (especially if you're not heading to l19 factotum for their "capstone").

[Houndour]

Thanks for the input there and build advice. It is very helpful.

Though I must ask Swashbucker uses weapon finesse to make the Swashbuckler use their Dex to damage rather then there strength. Is this a good idea for a Warblade//Factotum designed build? I mean you are adding INT to damage but should a build be focused on Dex or Str.

[Kennisiou]

You don't actually get dex to damage with weapon finesse, just on the hit. Str is still a stat you care about, but you don't need it as much thanks to int to damage and dex to hit and the fact that int and dex both provide you with more than str. Stat priority for a build like this looks something like:

Int>Dex/Con>Dex/Con>Str/Cha>/Str/Cha>Wis, depending on how much you want damage vs social skills. Given a 32 point buy (usually pretty standard), I'd go with something like 14 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 10 Cha if I really just wanted to put out damage and be a melee threat, with most of my stat points/gear going towards int and dex. You could theoretically also drop str to 10 to gain +2 dex, but all that means is +1 AC and +1 to hit at the loss of +2 to damage and some carrying capacity, so in my eyes it's not really worth it. If you went 10 str 14 Cha instead you'd get a lot better social skills and if you wanted to do an iaijutsu focus-based build that's definitely the way I'd go, since you could take levels in iaijutsu master to get cha to damage as well making str pretty much worthless to you, but I feel like overall if you wanted to do iaijutsu focus shenanigans factotum/warlock does it better than factotum/warblade ever will.

Also, a note on my previous post: level 1 ranger doesn't give two weapon fighting, so if you did something like that it would take a fighter level. My bad.

[thethird]

I like the wisdom / archery focused: Psy warr 4 / Slayer 10 / Psy warr +6 // Ranger 4 / Scout 3 / Ranger +13. Specially if mystic star and arcane order and available.

[Epsilon Rose]

You don't actually get dex to damage with weapon finesse, just on the hit. Str is still a stat you care about, but you don't need it as much thanks to int to damage and dex to hit and the fact that int and dex both provide you with more than str. Stat priority for a build like this looks something like:

Int>Dex/Con>Dex/Con>Str/Cha>/Str/Cha>Wis, depending on how much you want damage vs social skills. Given a 32 point buy (usually pretty standard), I'd go with something like 14 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 16 int, 10 wis, 10 Cha if I really just wanted to put out damage and be a melee threat, with most of my stat points/gear going towards int and dex. You could theoretically also drop str to 10 to gain +2 dex, but all that means is +1 AC and +1 to hit at the loss of +2 to damage and some carrying capacity, so in my eyes it's not really worth it. If you went 10 str 14 Cha instead you'd get a lot better social skills and if you wanted to do an iaijutsu focus-based build that's definitely the way I'd go, since you could take levels in iaijutsu master to get cha to damage as well making str pretty much worthless to you, but I feel like overall if you wanted to do iaijutsu focus shenanigans factotum/warlock does it better than factotum/warblade ever will.

Also, a note on my previous post: level 1 ranger doesn't give two weapon fighting, so if you did something like that it would take a fighter level. My bad.

It's worth noting that there's a ToB feat that will give you +dex to damage with some weapons (I think it's called Shadow blade).

[Kennisiou]

It's worth noting that there's a ToB feat that will give you +dex to damage with some weapons (I think it's called Shadow blade).

It requires access to a shadow hand stance and that you wield a shadow hand weapon (short sword, dagger, spiked chain, unarmed iirc). Sadly, warblades don't get shadow hand as a school, but a one-level swordsage dip can fix that. Either that or you have to take two feats (one to gain a maneuver, one to gain a stance) and if you do the latter I suggest nabbing shadow hand then waiting until initiator level 5 (so level 7 for the build if you put the swashbuckler on the warblade side and level 5 if you go straight factotum|blade) and then taking the gain stance feat to gain assassin stance, which is a super good stance. If you're doing it at level seven on the Factotum|buckler/warblade route, you can just take one level of fighter and use the bonus feat to nab the stance, that way at level nine you can have dex > damage. Going that route your feat build would probably look something like...

Level 1 - Filler (two weapon fighting, weapon focus short sword and weapon prof spked chain all stand out, or you use the feat/feats at this level for meeting prestige requirements)
Level 3 - Martial Study: Shadow Garotte (gives you the shadow garotte maneuver from the shadow hand school)
Level 6 - filler (imp. two weapon fighting, weapon focus spiked chain, or taking weapon prof spiked chain and retraining a prior weapon focus could all work here)
Level 7 (fighter bonus) - Martial Stance (assassin's stance)
Level 9 - Shadow Blade

This would mean at level 9 as long as you're in assassin's stance you have on each attack melee attack with a shadow hand weapon:

Str to damage, dex to damage, int to damage (discernable anatomy only), +2d6 sneak attack damage (normal sneak attack qualifications apply). This would indeed apply to any maneuvers and if you did go iaijutsu focus and start taking iaijutsu master prestige on your other side then as long as the foe is flat-footed you can add iaijutsu focus damage dice based on your skill roll AND +charisma modifier on each individually-rolled iaijutsu focus die starting at around level 14 if you use your filler feats and warblade bonus feats to qualify for the class (you'd qualify at level 9 and get the class capstone at level 14 after 5 levels). And it's not like the iaijutsu focus thing spreads the build all that thin, either, since you can use shadow garotte to make foes flatfooted then follow-up with iaijutsu focus attacks. If you went this route, I'd definitely go 14 cha and 10 str.

In short, with a build like this there's potential for some serious damage output without investing anything at all in strength, but remember: strength is still added to your damage so free strength sources are always a plus and strength penalties always a problem, it's just that you care even more about dex, int, and possibly cha than strength, so str boosts are good and str penalties are bad, but dex/int boosts are amazing and dex/int penalties are terrible.

[Manly Man]

I'm primarily a meleer, so there's a lot of builds I've experimented with, and can really appreciate. One of my favorites, if I roll high enough, is Warblade//Psychic Warrior, although Swordsage//Psychic Warrior has better synergy. I utilize the Hell out of the bonus fighter/psionic feats, and just straight go to town if I'm using the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) of the class. Diamond Nightmare Blade + Deep Impact = DELICIOUSNESS, even as a Swordsage.

[Houndour]

Wow really liking this build.
I am gonna have to look into this even for my single level build. Any advice there? I am really liking this class but never enough levels in the day it seems.

I am probably gonna go that route to have a less uber strength build but it will work out.
Iaijutsu Master before Chameleon or after? I like the floating Feat thing it gives its users.

And in this game either Point Buy or Roll is a choice.

[Glimbur]

The Incarnum classes (all two of them, Soulborn never happened) gestalt pretty well. Yes, they can have soulmelds with active abilities, but they can also give you pretty nice passive defenses. Incarnate can give a pile of HP via Vitality Belt, fortification, DR, immunity to dominate, and a bunch of other stuff. Totemist can give flight at level 2, a pile of natural attacks, or some other passive stuff.

[Sception]

It's not optimized or even even decent really mechanically, having the usual sort of caster//caster issues, but I enjoy dread necromancer//bard (with the requiem feat). Cha synergy, complimentary spell lists (DN handles damage, debuffing, manipulation of undead; bard covers healing, buffing, manipulation of the living), get some undead minions and buff them up to competence.

[Kennisiou]

I'd go Iaijutsu Master and then Chameleon. A tentative build is something like...

Factotum 1|Swashbuckler 1
Factotum 2|Swashbuckler 2
Factotum 3|Swashbuckler 3
Factotum 4|Warblade 1
Factotum 5|Warblade 2
Factotum 6|Warblade 3
Factotum 7|Warblade 4
Factotum 8|Warblade 5
Chameleon 1|Swordsage 1
Iaijutsu Master 1|Warblade 6
Iaijutsu Master 2|Warblade 7
Iaijutsu Master 3|Warblade 8
Iaijutsu Master 4|Warblade 9
Iaijutsu Master 5|Warblade 10
Chameleon 2|Warblade 11
Chameleon 3|Warblade 12
Chameleon 4|Warblade 13
Chameleon 5|Warblade 14
Chameleon 6|Warblade 15
Chameleon 7|Warblade 16



The one swordsage level lets you meet the prereqs to get shadow blade at level 9 without the two-feat tax. It does mess up your BaB progression, but since you can count the factotum levels for initiator level you're a 5th level initiator on swordsage letting you nab assassin's stance and shadow garotte right away. Also, discipline focus (weapon focus) claims to give you weapon focus as the feat, meaning you can use it to meet prerequisites for weapon specialization or for entry into iaijutsu master (but you can't retrain it as a warblade since it's a grouped weapon focus). This build doesn't include suggested feats, but generally you take shadow blade at level 9 and make sure to nab improved initiative as your first warblade bonus feat at Warblade 5 (Which you should probably do anyways) and able learner at level one (again a good idea for any build that starts factotum but classes out eventually). This build gets you level 5 chameleon casting, +4 ability boon, and double +4 aptitude, but misses out on rapid refocus which I consider a rather important chameleon ability. Still gives you tons of versatility and a free +4 to one stat so there's really no room to complain. You have +dex to damage as long as you stay in assassin stance and wield a shadowhand weapon, +cha to damage on iaiajutsu focus attacks, +str to damage always, and +int to damage on foes not immune to crits.

With a build like this, I think you should go with point buy. At a 32 point buy you can grab this spread: 12 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 14 Cha. That gets you a really solid set-up for damage and the like later. You could roll to see if you'd get better, though, but I feel like if you have two results less than ten you'll be in a pretty bad spot (but if you have a really strong rolling method like 5d6 drop two or something then go for it!).

Edit: Also, I completely forgot that iaijutsu focus requiring you to draw your weapon every time you use it means you're likely going to have trouble using normal weapons with it more than once a round. Your +cha to damage isn't going to be all that impressive unless you can convince the GM to houserule gnomish quickrazor as a shadow hand weapon (which thematically makes some sense at the very least) so you can still get your dex to damage and IF every attack.

[Houndour]

Quick Draw Feat plus Two Weapon Fighting feat should give me some advantage if I draw my first Kukri and attack with it then draw my second during my full attack action I should be able to use Iaijutsu twice in a round or at least every other round.

I do like your full run build I will likely use that build myself with some minor tweeks for personal preference.

Could you should a single class rundown of this? I am currently playing in a game and would love to make a back up character based on this premise to try it out if I have to before our first Gestalt session.

[Vortenger]

My first gestalt character was a wizard/archivist, and thats how I learned to wizard. At level 15 when the group 'sploded, my daily buff list required a full page (All the Hear of X, Unicorn Blood, Elemental Body, you know the ones). Combats? All the BFC, debuffs, buffs,and control you could eat. Utility? You haz it. ALL of it. Class Features? Sure, you get those too (Spontaneous Divination is amazing). Add in knowledge devotion if you ever do damage, or shoot rays.

For that matter, Archivist adds as much as factotum to most Int focused builds. You serve more as support than a one-man multi-tool, but you gain all divine spells as knowable spells. Divine Insight paired with Guidance of the Avatar makes you better at a skill that the factotum (+35 to almost any skill check from lvl 10 on), albeit only once or twice a day. You have Divine Power and the like, if melee is your thing today. You have Divine Agility if you feel like archery today. And you have all the goodies a T1 provides along side a (whatever you feel like)

Adding 3d6 damage to each attack an ally makes (Foe Dark Knowledge) after hasting them(replaced later by Righteous Wrath, because you can), and having the familiar fly around spamming mass snake's swiftness (wands and cross class ranks in UMD) while you...do your thing. That was my favorite past time in that campaign.

[Vortenger]

Also, you can use gestalt as a fun way to play up SAD synergy on one side, and use the other for more active powers.

For example: Cha melee guy! (Slapped together, not optimized)

Synergy Side: Battle Dancer 1/ Hexblade 4(w/ fix)/Human Paragon 3/ Paladin of Slaughter 2/ Blackguard 2/ Iaijutsu Master 8

Alongside:

Bard or Gish Sorcerer 20.

Similar things can be done with any one stat, if you're willing to specialize in it. It may not be the most 'optimized' way to play gestalt, but it is sure a lot of fun.

[Kennisiou]

Could you should a single class rundown of this? I am currently playing in a game and would love to make a back up character based on this premise to try it out if I have to before our first Gestalt session.

I feel like this build is almost impossible to do with only single classing, but I've seen builds somewhere that do get +int, dex, wis, str, and cha to damage on melee attacks. You go with 3 levels swashbuckler, some swordsage levels for dex and wis to damage, str is just always there, and I think you do nab factotum levels early on to make sure you can +cha to damage on Iaijutsu focus attacks. I think the build may look something like this:

Factotum 8/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 4/Iaiajutsu Master 5. It gets +wis to damage when using strikes of your chosen discipline, +cha to damage on iaijutsu focus hits, +dex to damage while in a shadowhand stance, +int to damage on enemies not crit-immune, and +str to damage on melee always. Factotum 8 for more standard actions, iaijutsu focus as a class skill, and a few other features, the other classes you literally just gain levels in until you have the feature for the stat to damage. Total BaB is 18, you gain access to a few maneuvers, you have some factotum SLAs, and you can take Able Learner level one to continue having all skills as class skills. Not sure how good this build actually is, but it's got all stats but con to damage on melee maneuvers so that's kinda neat.

[Vortenger]

Factotum 1|Swashbuckler 1
Factotum 2|Swashbuckler 2
Factotum 3|Swashbuckler 3
Factotum 4|Warblade 1
Factotum 5|Warblade 2
Factotum 6|Warblade 3
Factotum 7|Warblade 4
Factotum 8|Warblade 5
Chameleon 1|Swordsage 1
Iaijutsu Master 1|Warblade 6
Iaijutsu Master 2|Warblade 7
Iaijutsu Master 3|Warblade 8
Iaijutsu Master 4|Warblade 9
Iaijutsu Master 5|Warblade 10
Chameleon 2|Warblade 11
Chameleon 3|Warblade 12
Chameleon 4|Warblade 13
Chameleon 5|Warblade 14
Chameleon 6|Warblade 15
Chameleon 7|Warblade 16



A Dm might rule that Chameleon runs afoul of the dual progression clause, but its such a unique PrC, ymmv. (has for me)

[DwarfInTheFlask]

I have a question how many uses of Quick Draw can you use each round? I know you can draw your sheathed weapon as a free action with it, but can you place it back at the end of the first attack and keep repeating it for each following attack that round from High BAB or IP usage.

[Kennisiou]

A Dm might rule that Chameleon runs afoul of the dual progression clause, but its such a unique PrC, ymmv. (has for me)

It doesn't progress any class features, so I wouldn't see why. All of its features are its own. I mean they're its own class features that are taken from other clas lists but it's not dual progression. It's not like its spell progression says "+1 divine" or "+1 arcane" or anything.


I have a question how many uses of Quick Draw can you use each round? I know you can draw your sheathed weapon as a free action with it, but can you place it back at the end of the first attack and keep repeating it for each following attack that round from High BAB or IP usage.

Sheathing a weapon is a move action, so you can't really quick draw like that. Basically if you're going to quick draw to attack repeatedly with IF you have to drop your weapons after each attack and draw new ones as a free action (dropping a weapon is a free action).

[DwarfInTheFlask]

So you would need something like the Quickrazor which states that stowing the weapon is a free action.

[Vortenger]

It doesn't progress any class features, so I wouldn't see why. All of its features are its own. I mean they're its own class features that are taken from other clas lists but it's not dual progression. It's not like its spell progression says "+1 divine" or "+1 arcane" or anything.



Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

Quite right, Chameleon does not advance classes features. It is, however, a combination of classes. All of the main ones in fact, thats why we love it. It also gives access to both arcane and divine spells at an accelerated rate compared to other classes and from any spell list to boot, which is also why we love it . It lets you have both arcane and divine active at the same time, post Chameleon 7. Just like a theurge, but from 1 class. That is the very quintessence of dual progression.... which is exactly what you're not supposed to do...

There are only other two classes that offer both divine and arcane casting and they are unallowed. Some Dm's may find that limiting a chameleon (ostensibly, I hope you're not pushing for dual 9's on this) to 6th level spells may be a sufficient payment for their unique double progression, paired with a second class altogether. I did say your mileage may vary.

Your example is simultaneously gaining arcane spells, divine spells (many at reduced level), and maneuvers. Though this may smack of RAI vs RAW, I rather expect that's the kind of thing that the dual progression clause was attempting to dissuade. More power to you if your DM gives the okay. Mine never did.