PrC for adding spell lists.

[Rebel7284]

On these boards I mentioned recently remembering a Prestige Class in, I believe, Dragon Magazine that allowed you to add a whole spell list to your spell list every 4 levels (and I think some bonus spell slots on other levels.)

However, I can no longer find this class even after a lot of googling.

This is bothering me.

Can anyone assist?

[Kelb_Panthera]

That may be the most horribly overpowered, broken PrC I've ever heard of.

Have you looked through the dnd wikis for it?

[Sgt. Cookie]

Well, arguably the Prestige Bard/Paladin/Ranger add their entire respective spell lists to fixed list casters, such as Beguiler or Healer. So, there's that, I guess.

[Vaz]

There is the Rainbow Servant which grants additional Domains and eventually the Cleric List.

[Rebel7284]

That may be the most horribly overpowered, broken PrC I've ever heard of.

Have you looked through the dnd wikis for it?

It doesn't actually progress casting, so taking it on a wizard would leave you 4 levels behind.

However, fast progression PrCs would work. I did not specifically check DnD wiki. What string would I be looking for?

[ShurikVch]

It's Eldritch Master, from Dragon #280

(Also, if you need one more extra list, no need to take 4 more levels of EM. Uncanny Trickster can give it for only 2 levels)

[Rebel7284]

It's Eldritch Master, from Dragon #280

(Also, if you need one more extra list, no need to take 4 more levels of EM. Uncanny Trickster can give it for only 2 levels)

Thank you!

Also, explain the parenthetical please. How does advancing the class 2 levels allow you to gain the level 8 feature?

[Carth]

Wyrm wizard (Dragon Magic) allows you to poach individual spells from any list that you want.

[HaikenEdge]

(Also, if you need one more extra list, no need to take 4 more levels of EM. Uncanny Trickster can give it for only 2 levels)

Could you expand on this?

[ShurikVch]

Thank you!

Also, explain the parenthetical please. How does advancing the class 2 levels allow you to gain the level 8 feature?
The Uncanny Trickster is a 3-level PrC from the Complete Scoundrel.
On 2nd and 3rd levels he get "+1 level of existing class features"

At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Spell Dilettante is definitely a class feature, so you can get it at 2nd level, and if you want it, one more time at 3rd level.

Legacy Champion from Weapons of Legacy have similar feature on all levels except 1st and 7th, but often banned...

[Zombulian]

The Uncanny Trickster is a 3-level PrC from the Complete Scoundrel.
On 2nd and 3rd levels he get "+1 level of existing class features"


Spell Dilettante is definitely a class feature, so you can get it at 2nd level, and if you want it, one more time at 3rd level.

Legacy Champion from Weapons of Legacy have similar feature on all levels except 1st and 7th, but often banned...

Ah yes but it only advances you as though you were taking levels in the class. You still need the 4 levels to get the next spell list.

[ShurikVch]

Ah yes but it only advances you as though you were taking levels in the class. You still need the 4 levels to get the next spell list.

Nope.
It specifically advance Class Feature, not a class itself.
Advance with it rogue's Sneak Attack, will get +1d6 at 2nd and +1d6 more at 3rd.
Advance with it ranger's spellcasting, and will get +1 CL by level (not by 2 levels, like regular ranger)

[Zombulian]

Nope.
It specifically advance Class Feature, not a class itself.
Advance with it rogue's Sneak Attack, will get +1d6 at 2nd and +1d6 more at 3rd.
Advance with it ranger's spellcasting, and will get +1 CL by level (not by 2 levels, like regular ranger)

I disagree completely.

At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

It increases as if you had more levels in the class. It doesn't just straight up add progression.

[Carth]

Nope.
It specifically advance Class Feature, not a class itself.
Advance with it rogue's Sneak Attack, will get +1d6 at 2nd and +1d6 more at 3rd.
Advance with it ranger's spellcasting, and will get +1 CL by level (not by 2 levels, like regular ranger)

I have a hard time believing you'll find many DMs that accept that. That interpretation is torturous enough that the Hague should be on alert.

[ShurikVch]

I disagree completely.
So what?
I don't see how your quote disprove my words.

[Zombulian]

So what?
I don't see how your quote disprove my words.

It does because it says specifically it advances as if you had a level in the past class.

[ShurikVch]

I have a hard time believing you'll find many DMs that accept that. That interpretation is torturous enough that the Hague should be on alert.
Legacy Champion got banned precisely because of this feature. (Except when he banned with all book :smallsmile: )

Uncanny Trickster get through because hey, it's just a 2 levels (and you get a dead level before them)

[Zombulian]

Legacy Champion got banned precisely because of this feature. (Except when he banned with all book :smallsmile: )

Uncanny Trickster get through because hey, it's just a 2 levels (and you get a dead level before them)

The more I look at your quote the more ridiculous I find the way you read that...

[ShurikVch]

Come on, people! :smallmad:

1) This trick is really really old. UT (or LC) dip used to grab extra CFs which you otherwise will get later (probably, much later :smallwink: ), or even not get at all, such as one more Favored Enemy. I personally seen it was used (on forum) in conjunction with Eldritch Master to get third extra spell list! And nobody objected! :smallcool:

2) Let's take fullcasting PrC with separate spell list.
This PrC cast spells just as base class (say, cleric or sorcerer), but progression stopped at 5th level spells, because PrC have only 10 levels.
Say, I use UT's CF to get extra CL. What will be happen?
By your interpretation: nothing. Class have only 10 levels, and all of them already taken. You get CFs "as if you had also gained a level in a class", and you can't take 11 levels in 10-level class. :smallsigh:
By my interpretation: you will get +2 CL and access to spells of 6th level... (At ECL 19! Big deal! :smallannoyed: )
Which interpretation is more logical for you?

3) Majority of CFs are either not stacks with itself (no point to take Divine Grace second time), or progress smoothly enough to make such shenanigans needless at best and counter-productive at worst (bonus feats, Sneak Attack, caster/manifester/binder/initiator level and so on)

4) Neither Eldritch Master, nor Uncanny Trickster by itself progress spellcasting. Using this combo, your character will lose at least 6 caster levels, which mean at ECL 20 barely able to cast a 7th level spells. Is it really so broken?

[Vaz]

So what?
I don't see how your quote disprove my words.

You count as having gain 2 levels in a class from before. So you gain 2 levels of the class.

I could sort of excuse your antagonism if you were correct. As it stands, your trick relies on deliberately misinterpreting the wording

[Zombulian]

Come on, people! :smallmad:

1) This trick is really really old. UT (or LC) dip used to grab extra CFs which you otherwise will get later (probably, much later :smallwink: ), or even not get at all, such as one more Favored Enemy. I personally seen it was used (on forum) in conjunction with Eldritch Master to get third extra spell list! And nobody objected! :smallcool:

2) Let's take fullcasting PrC with separate spell list.
This PrC cast spells just as base class (say, cleric or sorcerer), but progression stopped at 5th level spells, because PrC have only 10 levels.
Say, I use UT's CF to get extra CL. What will be happen?
By your interpretation: nothing. Class have only 10 levels, and all of them already taken. You get CFs "as if you had also gained a level in a class", and you can't take 11 levels in 10-level class. :smallsigh:
By my interpretation: you will get +2 CL and access to spells of 6th level... (At ECL 19! Big deal! :smallannoyed: )
Which interpretation is more logical for you?

3) Majority of CFs are either not stacks with itself (no point to take Divine Grace second time), or progress smoothly enough to make such shenanigans needless at best and counter-productive at worst (bonus feats, Sneak Attack, caster/manifester/binder/initiator level and so on)

4) Neither Eldritch Master, nor Uncanny Trickster by itself progress spellcasting. Using this combo, your character will lose at least 6 caster levels, which mean at ECL 20 barely able to cast a 7th level spells. Is it really so broken?

That... isn't a trick. You can't use those classes to get features earlier than you would've been able to before. What most people use those classes for is for progressing class features that explicitly improve after every single level (ie: a Hellfire Warlock's Hellfire Blast), and therefore you can add more effective class levels even after the class has run out (Hellfire Warlock is a 3 lvl PrC).

What I have a feeling happened here is that you read about the trick I just described and misunderstood.

[ShurikVch]

That... isn't a trick. You can't use those classes to get features earlier than you would've been able to before.
Yes, but after you already get em, nothing (but DM :smallamused: ) can stop you from getting them one more time. RAW there are absolutely no difference between Spell Dilettante at level 4 and Spell Dilettante at level 8.


What I have a feeling happened here is that you read about the trick I just described and misunderstood. No, I explicitly seen it was used to get third extra spell list via Eldritch Master. (One on 4th level, one on 8th level, and one via UT's +1 CF) It was on the forum. None disagreed

[holywhippet]

Access to every spell list is pretty much built into the archivist. Any spell they can get as a divine scroll they can scribe into their spells book. As I understand it, the magical item creation rules allow you to work with anyone when making magical items and dividing up the required feats, spells, xp and gold costs etc. So you just sit down with anyone who can cast a spell you want and scribe it as a divine spell. Then scribe it into your spell book.

Even ignoring that, a lot of arcane spells are available as cleric domain spells which can be scribed as divine scrolls.

For added fun, you get the spell at the level of the original class you got it from. So you can use a level 4 spell slot to cast break enchantment if you acquired it from a paladin rather than a cleric.

[Thurbane]

You count as having gain 2 levels in a class from before. So you gain 2 levels of the class.
This is exactly how I read the ability as well.

If ShurikVch's reading is correct (which I personally do not believe), then literally everyone I have ever seen use Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion in a build on this and other boards has been wrong.

[jindra34]

ShurikVch's interpretation is almost certainly wrong.
The ability states that you
A. Gain class features and effective level
in B. Another Class
as if C. You gained levels in that class
in addition to the benefits of UC.
All as one statement, which has pretty obvious implications. Namely you only gain the class features of the next level that you haven't taken (either truly or by proxy from an ability like that). Proper Parsing, ITS USEFUL.

[ShurikVch]

At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.
Fortunately, nowhere in the RAW it say "next level".
After getting CF on it's respective level, you can take it again from the very same level.

[HaikenEdge]

Fortunately, nowhere in the RAW it say "next level".
After getting CF on it's respective level, you can take it again from the very same level.

By that logic, a character can keep gaining level 1 every level, since when you level up, you gain a level, and nowhere in RAW (that I'm aware of) does it say it has to be the "next" level.

[ShurikVch]

By that logic, a character can keep gaining level 1 every level, since when you level up, you gain a level, and nowhere in RAW (that I'm aware of) does it say it has to be the "next" level.
Just why? You will miss all class features beyond the 1st level.
But yes, you can. Not directly, but via UT or LC.

[jindra34]

Fortunately, nowhere in the RAW it say "next level".
After getting CF on it's respective level, you can take it again from the very same level.

Then by that definition when I gain a level in a prestige class I can take whatever level I haven't already gained. Meaning your (for the most part, other than current uses) not short cutting anything really.

[Stegyre]

By that logic, a character can keep gaining level 1 every level, since when you level up, you gain a level, and nowhere in RAW (that I'm aware of) does it say it has to be the "next" level.
No, no, no. By SV's logic, you would take Wizard 20, and suddenly have spells per day of 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 –– at character level 7 (let's say, Wiz 5 / UT 2).

To state this is to highlight the absurdity of SV's reading.

[ShurikVch]

No, no, no. By SV's logic, you would take Wizard 20, and suddenly have spells per day of 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 –– at character level 7 (let's say, Wiz 5 / UT 2).

To state this is to highlight the absurdity of SV's reading.
Nope, it's impossible.
Spells per day depend on caster level, and wizard 20 don't have hard-coded CL 20
Wizard 20 can be of any CL
And Uncanny Trickster give you only +1 CF, not +arbitrary number
Still, you can get a bonus feats from W20, if you want so

[Stegyre]

Au contraire! Spells are expressly identified as a "class feature" of wizards. Nothing says that spells per day are determined by caster level – as near as I can tell, that is a limitation you are making up out of whole cloth. Rather, caster level is generally – but not always – determined by class level in the casting class.

Many things – feats, items, racial abilities – increase caster level, and none of these, so far as I am aware, are understood to increase spells per day. They simply increase the effectiveness of the spells the character has by virtue of his class feature and class level.

Your position really is insupportable.

[Carth]

It was on the forum. None disagreed

So, nobody else has showed up in this thread that agrees with your interpretation. Plus...


If ShurikVch's reading is correct (which I personally do not believe), then literally everyone I have ever seen use Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion in a build on this and other boards has been wrong.

This is my experience as well. Not only can I not recall anyone supporting ShurikVch's position at any table or forum, I'm fairly certain I've never even seen anyone suggest this type of interpretation before.

[Zombulian]

I repeat my previous theory: he saw the build that we the forumites know, but only glancingly. Took the idea that he found in his own misguided reading to be what we were saying.

[A_S]

+1 for "this interpretation of UT/LC is incoherent and nobody on these forums has ever suggested it works that way."

"As if you had gained a level" is pretty clear. If you were a Wizard 4 and you gained a level in Wizard, you would become a Wizard 5, getting access to 3rd level spells and a bonus feat, so that's what happens if you advance Wizard 5 with UT or LC. Done and done.

[Jack_Simth]

It's Eldritch Master, from Dragon #280Checking... great class for Gestalt, especially with something like a Warmage, Beguiler, or Dread Necromancer on the other side (who knows their entire spell list - means you get full spontaneous access to one poor list and two good lists) - also great for an Epic campaign, as it progresses caster level and you don't get more spells per day at Epic anyway. It is a funky 2/3rds progression class (it gives a new level of spells at 3, 6, and 9, but only a single slot - in Epic, those could be used for metamagic'd lower level spells easily).