Holding off Bonus Feats?

[CAHaugen]

I'm not talking about the SRD: Fighter, though that could technically apply.

Let's say I'm a Rogue who has the 3/4ths BAB, so by 20th Level he has the BAB of +15/+10/+5. You naturally gain a Bonus Feat at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th Level. For the purposes of debate, let's assume you're working out your future everything, even selecting your Bonus Feats. Is it possible to hold off on taking a Bonus Feat at 1st, 3rd, and 6th Level when your BAB is quite low, take Bonus Feats at 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th, and now that your BAB is higher and now that you have certain Bonus Feats taken, use the higher BAB and Bonus Feats to meet the Prerequisites and take more advances Bonus Feats that, otherwise, would not have been available at 1st, 3rd, and 6th Level?

Here's my basic gist. Coming from all SRD Material (Various books and such), the Bonus Feats I want to take are the following:

1st - None
3rd - None
6th - None
9th - Vital Strike
12th - Improved Critical
15th - Improved Vital Strike
18th - Devastating Strike

Vital Strike, when using a single Attack, allows you to roll an extra Damage Dice. So, for instance, if your weapon normally deals 1d6, you roll 2d6.

Improved Critical doubles your CTR; A CTR of 19-20 (+2 gap) becomes 17-20 (+4 gap).

Improved Vital Strike, when using a single Attack, allows you to roll two extra Damage Dice. So, for instance, if your weapon normally deals 1d6, you roll 3d6.

Devastating Strike, when using Vital Strike or any stronger versions, grants you a +2 Damage Roll Bonus per additional Damage Dice you have gained. So, for instance, when using IVS (+2 Damage Dice), you gain a +4 Damage Bonus.

Now that I have these set up, can I fill in the Bonus Feats I acquired at 1st, 3rd, and 6th Level to get more powerful Bonus Feats instead of being stuck with crud like Weapon Focus?

Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike can be found in CRB, while Devastating Strike is in UC. Improved Critical is in CRB.

This would mean Feats such as Greater Critical are accessible, which doubles your Critical Multiplier.

I'm not asking if Bonus Feats from Flaws, nor the Bonus Feats from SRD: Fighters can be shoved off in this manner, merely the Bonus Feats you naturally gain as you level up.

[AstralFire]

No, sorry.

[CAHaugen]

Now that I have these set up, can I fill in the Bonus Feats I acquired at 1st, 3rd, and 6th Level to get more powerful Bonus Feats instead of being stuck with crud like Weapon Focus?

I should clarify, no I do not mean can I take some powerful Bonus Feat at 1st Level and automatically use it. I mean can I leave it "blank" until I meet it's Prerequisites later, even if those are not met until say 18th Level. Than, once they are met, fill it in?

Sort of hold it off until you are more flushed out to take it, rather than take something that is great at your current Level but ultimately kind of worthless at higher Levels.

[AstralFire]

I understood. But no, you can't. Sorry.

[FinnDarkblade]

I should clarify, no I do not mean can I take some powerful Bonus Feat at 1st Level and automatically use it. I mean can I leave it "blank" until I meet it's Prerequisites later, even if those are not met until say 18th Level. Than, once they are met, fill it in?

Sort of hold it off until you are more flushed out to take it, rather than take something that is great at your current Level but ultimately kind of worthless at higher Levels.

Yeah, sorry, but other than Rule 0 you can't do that. You can't put feat slots into storage and use them later.

[Jgosse]

hcould he not just retrain the feats and replace them. at the time of retraining he would qualify?

[Thanatosia]

The retraining rules specificaly state you have to qualify for the feat at the point where the feat was first obtained to retrain into it. So no, can't do it that way either.

[Lanaya]

Basically, you can't do something unless the game specifically says you can, and nowhere does it say that you can delay picking up feats. Pretty much every game works on the basis that you need to be given specific permission to do something, otherwise you get the incredibly silly 'it doesn't say I can't' defence. "It doesn't say my dwarf can't shoot lasers out of his eyes!" "It doesn't say I can't play as an UltraTarrasque with 200 hit dice and a level adjustment of -199, making it an appropriate 1st level character!"

[FinnDarkblade]

hcould he not just retrain the feats and replace them. at the time of retraining he would qualify?

Yes, he could retrain the feat but he could only retrain it another feat that he was qualified for at the time he took the original feat. So if he originally took Run at first level in a class that didn't have full BAB he could not later retrain it to Weapon Finesse, as Weapon Finesse requires a BAB of 1 and at that level he didn't have that. So he's still stuck with low-level feats.

[AstralFire]

hcould he not just retrain the feats and replace them. at the time of retraining he would qualify?


You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.

No, sorry. Chaos Soufflé is the only exception I'm aware of. But Chaos Soufflé is silly.

[Urpriest]

Another important point: the feats you get at 1,3,6,9... aren't "bonus feats", they're just feats.

[Jgosse]

I think I would let it fly as a Dm. at least untill some one gave me a reason to take it away.

[FinnDarkblade]

I think I would let it fly as a Dm. at least untill some one gave me a reason to take it away.

How about a full-caster saving up all his feats to get extra 8th-level spell slots/spells known later on? Or even for Epic feats if they want to wait even longer.

[AstralFire]

I think I would let it fly as a Dm. at least untill some one gave me a reason to take it away.

I would allow at most one level of delay, since that would remove a lot of frustration regarding Weapon Finesse etc.

[Jgosse]

I think I would let it fly as a Dm. at least untill some one gave me a reason to take it away.

I ment retraining not delay.

[TuggyNE]

I would allow at most one level of delay, since that would remove a lot of frustration regarding Weapon Finesse etc.

Me, I'd just fix Weapon Finesse. :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

Me, I'd just fix Weapon Finesse. :smalltongue:
Weapon Finesse is fine...




...the fact that every class doesn't get it automatically as a bonus feat at level 1, however, is not.

[Tvtyrant]

The retraining rules specificaly state you have to qualify for the feat at the point where the feat was first obtained to retrain into it. So no, can't do it that way either.

Well you could travel back in time using UPD and the Dorje trick all the way back to when you were level 1 as a level 20 and then swap them to whatever you want from there on, but that takes tons of money, is silly, and still requires epic levels to work.

I would just talk to your DM about getting extra feats or something CAHaugen.

[ericgrau]

Weapon Finesse is fine...




...the fact that every class doesn't get it automatically as a bonus feat at level 1, however, is not.
Serves 'em right for thinking every rogue automatically has to melee. With d6 HD and light armor it isn't even that good of an idea.

I think the issue is once you get into stronger or more interesting feats to blow your precious few slots on things as dull and weak as selecting your fighting style annoys people. I think such gaming groups should institute half feats; feats that only cost half a feat each. Either interesting but weak splatbook feats should each be half a feat, or if power creep comes in then a lot of the existing feats should become half feats while the power feats should be full feats. So you get more options for cheap but not free, so everyone isn't automatically the same. And you're still limited unlike what happens with getting a million feats of any kind.

Totally houserule territory though. The answer to the OP's question is still no.

[AstralFire]

Me, I'd just fix Weapon Finesse. :smalltongue:

That too. But there are other BAB+1 requirement feats that arguably shouldn't be.

[TuggyNE]

That too. But there are other BAB+1 requirement feats that arguably shouldn't be.

Probably at least a few, although I can't think of any off-hand.

Well, let's see. Quick Draw, maybe EWP; WF makes sense with BAB +1.

[nedz]

IMHO Weapon Finesse is fine as it is.

Classes which start out with 0 BAB have neither combat training nor any combat experience. As they gradually acquire experience they improve until it all gels (at level 3) when they take weapon finesse.

So you have two levels when you can't hit a barn door, and then you get the knack and you can.

As to the OP's question: the answer is no.

The relevant rules are not in the OGL so I can't quote them :smallsigh:
The relevant rules are on p59 of the PH.

[Der_DWSage]

IMHO Weapon Finesse is fine as it is.

Classes which start out with 0 BAB have neither combat training nor any combat experience. As they gradually acquire experience they improve until it all gels (at level 3) when they take weapon finesse..

There are some Monks that would like to speak with you about having 'no combat training.'

(Hah, as if Monks were ever a threat.)

[Jgosse]

IMHO Weapon Finesse is fine as it is.

Classes which start out with 0 BAB have neither combat training nor any combat experience. As they gradually acquire experience they improve until it all gels (at level 3) when they take weapon finesse.

So you have two levels when you can't hit a barn door, and then you get the knack and you can.

As to the OP's question: the answer is no.

The relevant rules are not in the OGL so I can't quote them :smallsigh:
The relevant rules are on p59 of the PH.

so a bard or rouge who has an 18 to dex and a 10 str goes from have a 0 atk modifier to a 5. I am starting to think maybe every one should get it for free at first level. If you can be very accurate with a bow because of your natural dexterity why not with a thrown dagger or another light weapon.

[AstralFire]

IMHO Weapon Finesse is fine as it is.

Classes which start out with 0 BAB have neither combat training nor any combat experience. As they gradually acquire experience they improve until it all gels (at level 3) when they take weapon finesse.

So you have two levels when you can't hit a barn door, and then you get the knack and you can.

As to the OP's question: the answer is no.

The relevant rules are not in the OGL so I can't quote them :smallsigh:
The relevant rules are on p59 of the PH.

The Rogue starts out with Sneak Attack. I find it hard to believe that the Rogue, Monk, Scout, Swordsage, Warmage, Soulknife and Psychic Warrior all lack both combat training and combat experience. That would make them Experts or Commoners, not their respective classes.

[Yuki Akuma]

IMHO Weapon Finesse is fine as it is.

Classes which start out with 0 BAB have neither combat training nor any combat experience.

That's not fair. 3/4 BaB represents combat training and/or combat experience, just not to the same extent as 1/1 BaB does.

Monks and Clerics (and likely Druids) are explicitly trained in combat. Rogues pick things up from experience, as they mostly come from lifestyles where having to fight is useful. Bards could be either.

Swordsages are kinda meant to be kung-fu masters, and they have 3/4 BaB, too. Warmages are trained military professionals with 3/4 BaB. Ninjas are freaking ninjas and have 3/4 BaB.


so a bard or rouge who has an 18 to dex and a 10 str goes from have a 0 atk modifier to a 5. I am starting to think maybe every one should get it for free at first level. If you can be very accurate with a bow because of your natural dexterity why not with a thrown dagger or another light weapon.

You use your Dexterity modifier on thrown attack rolls. Strength is only added to damage.

[AstralFire]

The Warmage is actually BAB 1/2, which I think especially undermines the "BAB 3/4 means no combat training" argument. They're not trained to be hitting people at melee range, but they are combat trained.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Warmages are 1/2 BaB?

Dear lord they suck harder than I thought. Why did I think they were 3/4?

Okay yeah that undermines the argument even harder. If a 1/2 BaB class can be a trained military professional...

[AstralFire]

Speaking of MiniHB classes, the Marshal is BAB 3/4 too. :smalltongue: Marshal, Swordsage, Monk, Scout, Psy Warrior seem like the biggest "whatchu talkin' 'bout Willis?" on this point.

[Zombimode]

Speaking of MiniHB classes, the Marshal is BAB 3/4 too.

As are the Divine Mind and the Soul Knife, two classes that, despite their unfortunate flaws, are clearly warrior types.

The problem with Weapon Finesse is that most of the characters that would want to have it at first level, can't take it because of BaB. Those charakters who can take it at first level, often don't want it.

Personally, I'm not a fan of giving Weapon Finesse as a "bonus" feat to every character at first level. Dex already increases to-hit with ranged attacks, initiative, reflex saves, AC, and a crapload of skills, (and can be made to apply to damage as well with a bit of through-the-hoop-jumping). Wheras Strenght improves damage with melee and thrown attacks and... carrying capacity? Yeah, paying a feat to get Dex to attack seem reasonable to me.

[nedz]

Well you guys all make a fair point, well except for Warmage, but have you considered that a better houserule is to make those classes full BAB ?

[Zombimode]

Well you guys all make a fair point, well except for Warmage, but have you considered that a better houserule is to make those classes full BAB ?

Why not simply axing the BaB +1 requirement of Weapon Finesse? Seems to be the obvious and most simple solution, really.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well you guys all make a fair point, well except for Warmage, but have you considered that a better houserule is to make those classes full BAB ?

Do we think a better houserule is to make every 3/4 BaB class a 1/1 BaB class?

No. We don't. That would be absurd.

[Zombimode]

Do we think a better houserule is to make every 3/4 BaB class a 1/1 BaB class?

No. We don't. That would be absurd.

To be fair, upping classes like the Monk, Soulknife, Divine Mind and the Marshall to full bab makes those classes quite attractive in E6 (with the unfortunate side effect that Monk 1 becomes almost a no-brainer dip for any melee character...).

[Yuki Akuma]

To be fair, upping classes like the Monk, Soulknife, Divine Mind and the Marshall to full bab makes those classes quite attractive in E6 (with the unfortunate side effect that Monk 1 becomes almost a no-brainer dip for any melee character...).

Oh, sure, increasing the BaB on some 3/4 classes would be totally fine. But every 3/4 BaB class that assumes combat training and/or experience (which is almost all of them) being bumped up to 1/1 would be kinda weird.

Why have separate BaB progressions at all in that case?

[nedz]

Do we think a better houserule is to make every 3/4 BaB class a 1/1 BaB class?

No. We don't. That would be absurd.

That's not quite what I said. I have seen repeated suggestions over the years for making most of the classes listed full BAB, especially Monk.

[AstralFire]

I would simply make any BAB +1 requirements read like so:

- Base Attack Bonus +1 or greater, or at least one martial or exotic weapon proficiency.

I believe that covers all of the classes in question.

[ericgrau]

A 7-8 hp rogue shouldn't be given a rapier for his own good. Really I'd rather make him wait until level 4. Here sir, you shall take your light crossbow and like it.

Also don't like cookie cutter characters. More feats is ok I guess or even discounted large groups of feats is ok I guess. Individual DM determined free feats is eh, even/especially if it's by class.

[AzureKnight]

One house rule I use at my games makes it so that if a player seems really bad at something, ie fighting in melee or ranged etc, I will allow the option of taking a flaw that corisponds with said skill letting them add a bonus feat. This only works as I do not allow flaws at character creation.

That allows a little more leadway to add feats they currently lack and would beniefit with.

[Nonah_Me]

Why not change it to BaB +1 or Dex bonus must > Str bonus?

[Epsilon Rose]

Why not change it to BaB +1 or Dex bonus must > Str bonus?

Why would you need it if your dex bonus is less than your str bonus? I have a feeling that your alternate requirement will cover 90% of the cases where a player wants the feat, rendering the first requirement somewhat moot.