Mechanics Exercise: Escaping a buried coffin through brute force.

[Isamu Dyson]

What rolls, and what DC(s) would you require if a character wanted to successfully bash open a buried coffin and push through six feet of good old dirt?

[Evandar]

A quick Google led me to this (http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/7916/could-someone-dig-themselves-out-of-a-grave):

"This feat is only feasible if the victim can apply more pressure to the soil than the soil can apply back. Otherwise, they are helpless to move the soil.

If we take the density of soil to be uniformly 1 g cm^-3 (a conservative estimate), then the pressure from the mass of soil would be 98 Pa / cm (using 9.8 as acceleration due to gravity).

Under 4 inches of soil (10cm), that amounts to 980 Pa.

NASA studies showed that a person can exert 818 N of force Figure 4.9.3-6. This force is spread over both hands, which are - on average - 18.9cm x 8.4cm Tables 1 and 2, for a total area of 0.032 m^2. This gives a pressure exerted of 25.8 kPa - easily enough to dig away from 4 inches of soil. (Solving this actually would allow someone - under ideal conditions, to push through 2.6m of soil!)

Unfortunately in most cases conditions won't be ideal for pushing, so the force exerted is somewhat smaller. Furthermore, to push further than an arm's span you need to clear space to sit up. Time taken to escape before asphyxiating would become a limiting factor.

Finally, I want to mention that Mythbuster's tried it, and found that they could escape from two feet with effort. At six feet, there was no chance."

This bit seems particularly relevant:

"Finally, I want to mention that Mythbuster's tried it, and found that they could escape from two feet with effort. At six feet, there was no chance. "

I'm not sure how scientifically rigorous the Mythbusters are (probably not very) but assuming they have a strength of ten and that there is no way for them to open a coffin buried six feet deep (i.e: taking twenty is insufficient), we can safely assume that opening a coffin that's two feet deep has a DC no higher than 20. (maybe)

I'd watch the video that was linked there to figure out how hard it was for them to open the coffin, but I moved back to Malaysia for the holidays and I have to wait for things to stream at 144p (that option isn't even available in Melbourne).

I don't know exactly how the DC will stack. I don't think you'd just do 20*3 and achieve a DC of 60 because the implications for strength there would be just plain silly. I guess I'd do another +2 for the DC for every two feet of dirt?

So something like: 10 (base DC) + 10 (lid and two feet of dirt) + 2 per 2 ft. of dirt. (So every person aiding you could help you shift another two feet).

That's like a DC of 26 for six feet of dirt. Which seems too low now.

I GIVE UP.

[Spuddles]

DC26 seems actually pretty reasonable for 6ft of fresh grave dirt.

[only1doug]

Breaking the coffin lid can be handled with the breaking and entering rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#breakingAndEntering)

As a wooden object the coffin has hardness 5 (subtract 5 damage from each attack) and I'd say 20 hps needed to get through (about the same as a tower shield). this would result in some wooden shards, which could be used to help dig.

Weapons: I'd rule that being in a coffin is much like being in a grapple, light weapons or unarmed attacks only.

Digging out is more tricky, I haven't found anything official that covers it but this suggestion (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?166537-Any-rules-for-digging-in-dirt-and-stone) from enworld makes good sense:


Profession (Miner):
This skill gives you the knowledge of digging holes in the ground, shoring up tunnel shafts, and other related subjects.

Digging holes: For this skill check, you can use either INT or STR as a modifier. Each point you surpass the DC reduces the time by 1 hour.

DC 10, excavate 5' cube of dirt in 20 hours
+2 DC for difficult soil or sandstone
+4 DC for Stone or root entangled soil
+6 DC for Granite or Kalichi (a hard clay layer such as found in the Arizona deserts)
+4 DC for improvised implements (Swords, Military Picks, etc..)

And in keeping with Sean Reynolds’s recent rant on avoiding absolutes, +5 DC for untrained use.

Characters with Stone-Cunning get a +4 to their check.


I'd guess a DC 10 check to tunnel out in time would be appropriate, add the following modifiers:
bare hands +8 DC
Improvised Tools +4 DC (Bits of splintered coffin lid)
Untrained +5 DC

This gives DC 23 str or int test to tunnel out (untrained with bare hands),
DC 19 if they use the bits of coffin lid.
DC 14 if trained and using coffin lid.

All of which presumes that they can break their way out of the coffin in the first place, which is impossible for anyone with a strength penalty.

(unless they have an adamantine dagger)

[Spuddles]

If the wood really had a hardness of 5, there's no way anyone with less than 14 str can break through it making unarmed attacks. At least, not with non-proficient unarmed strikes.

Probably better to use str check to burst.

[only1doug]

I guess you could use a softwood coffin (shields tend to be hardwood or soft / hard laminates) and houserule the hardnesss down to the right level to make it difficult but not impossible for the PC to be able to beat.

I think that the burst DC should be ridiculously high, you are effectively breaking the coffin lid and the 6' of earth on top of it in one blow, that shouldn't be achievable by normal people. Break DC 40+

[Evandar]

I think the character here is actually going to have to outright push the lid and dirty off them, rather than dig through it slowly. Once they broke the lid open, they'd be at serious risk of suffocation.

But yeah, that's how I interpreted the question. Breaking the hinges or whatnot on the lid, then just heaving the entire thing, dirt and all, straight up.

That is, one check to break the lid then another strength check to lift the lid + the relevant amount of dirt.

[Spuddles]

I think that the burst DC should be ridiculously high, you are effectively breaking the coffin lid and the 6' of earth on top of it in one blow, that shouldn't be achievable by normal people. Break DC 40+

Only of the earth above it is packed hard as a single column, which isnt the case with a freshly dug grave. The soil will actually be quite loose, effectively making much of the volume air. After a heavy rain, a recently filled hole can collapse down by 40% or more.

Though I suppose that will mostly be the case with light, loamy soils with a deep organic layer. Denser clays with gravel will put much more pressure on the coffin.

[Der_DWSage]

Well...I'll start with the Mythbusters example.

Jamie's a pretty healthy guy, so let's be a little on the generous side and give him 14 Strength for a +2 modifier.

With two feet of dirt on him, he had some difficulty lifting the coffin lid. I'd say that's the point where he had to do more than take 10 on the Strength check, making the DC somewhere between 15 and 18. Let's call it 17, for brevity's sake. Something that your average person could accomplish, or even a moderately weak person if they were desperate enough.

With six feet of dirt, the DC might not have gone past 22. The real problem was that the coffin was starting to collapse in on him, and they had to stop the experiment for safety reasons. With that in mind, and also keeping in mind that STR 18 is supposed to be an olympic strongman, I wouldn't say it's unreasonable that the full 'six feet of softly packed dirt' DC is somewhere around DC 23-25, depending on other circumstances. (How tight the coffin is for leverage's sake, how long they've been unconscious inside, how low the oxygen levels are...) Something that a very strong man could accomplish, barely, if he was lucky and got every circumstance just right. Taking 10 is right out, but a few good bursts of strength might get the result he's looking for. (Of course, once he has the lid open, he has other issues.)

The idea of breaking the lid and using it as a shovel is...uh. Interesting, but it forgets the fact that the main issue with being buried alive isn't actually strength or tools, but leverage. You have no space to dig with. You'd be just as boned if they buried you with a shovel, since you couldn't point it upwards before the dirt came crashing down. You might manage something with a hand shovel, but only if you actually went out the side of the coffin and carefully dug your way up before you suffocated, probably requiring one heck of an improvised series of checks. (Survival for proper direction, Knowledge(Architecture) for keeping your tunnel from collapsing on you, constitution to make it before your air ran out, strength to actually shift the dirt...) Going straight up is really only an option for mages and those that are, for some reason, buried vertically.

[Mutazoia]

First find this guy:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110306233742/killbill/images/c/c0/PaiMeiPromo.jpg

Have him teach you to do this:

http://www.moviesera.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Pai-mei-kill-bill.jpg

Practice until you can do:

this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8y9US7ajWo)

Profit!

BTW the Mythbusters video can be found here: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zYVybHyNbI) Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtoESNtZtD8)

[only1doug]

That's certainly the technique for escaping that I was thinking of, even if it isn't the most realistic it probably fits best into the fantasy genre.

I guess it depends on which approach the Player wants to take and we have offered some relevant DCs for each approach.

[Eldan]

Actually, I think by D&D rules it should be possible to just destroy the earth above you by dealing enough damage to it, instead of pushing it up. If it's a five foot cube, just attack it.

Now, the next question is what hardness and hit points loose earth has.

[Greenish]

Jamie's a pretty healthy guy, so let's be a little on the generous side and give him 14 Strength for a +2 modifier.Jamie's a cool guy and all, but really, he isn't all that buff. 18 might be the peak human achievement, but even 14 takes rather serious chops over the human average of 10-11.


I mean, for most characters over level 5, getting buried alive should be a hinderance, a speed bump, not an actually life-threatening situation.

[Mutazoia]

Honestly, unless you have some form of innate digging ability, or can summon a monster to do it for you getting buried alive IS going to be a major event for anybody, I don't care what your level or Str score is.

We can assume that Arnold Schwarzenegger at the height of his career (circa "Conan the Barbarian") had the equivalent of an 18 strength. Not even he could get enough force behind a punch at 3 inches to bust through a buried coffin lid.

For the record, the amount of dirt that is taken out of the ground to make the hole for an average coffin is 6 x 6 x 4 = 144 ft3.

A cubic foot of dirt weighs approximately 75-100 pounds. Since there are 27 cubic feet in one cubic yard, a cubic yard of dirt will weigh between 2025 and 2700 pounds....which is actually more weight than the max load of a character with 29 strength. (And that's just the weight for ONE cubic yard) Divide 144 by 27 and we get 5.3 cubic yards of dirt on top of the coffin. Taking the low end of the weight scale 2025 x 5.3 = 10,732 lbs of dirt (rounded down) re-enforcing the coffin lid. (FYI the old flat topped coffins collapsed almost instantly under the weight, which is why modern coffins have arched lids to help distribute the weight. If your character is in the old "pine box" he's dead already.)

THEN you have the issue of actually moving through all that earth with out being able to breath...you have to some how scoop the earth from on top of you, get it under you and move up. Heavy exertion..and that's being VERY generous, not to mention finding a way to get the earth past you with out it all caving in and pinning you completely holding your breath the whole time. Keep in mind you are starting from a laying position and there is more earth on top of you than there is room in the coffin (with or with out you in it) to put it in. Before you could even shift enough earth (and pieces of broken coffin lid) to sit up, your coffin is going to be filled completely.

I'm not even going to go into calculating the amount of oxygen (http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/how_much_oxygen_for_a_person.htm) that will be in the coffin. Suffice to say that on average there would be approximately 60 minutes of air. 60 minutes if you stay perfectly calm and do not exert yourself at all. If you can lower your respiration rate (by sleeping for example) you can stretch that some (so if your unconscious when your put in there you are slightly better off, but the panic after wake up will probably make up for the difference).

Assuming a normal casket is 31.3 cu ft when empty...

Most likely a person would consume 1 cu ft of air per minute according to scuba diving statistics... and their consumption rate will probably be increased from stress of being buried alive (so let's say 2 cu ft/min)... but they will most likely be breathing in 21% oxygen and breathing out 16% oxygen... so the reduction per breath is 5%... the only other aspect to worry about is CO2 poisoning... so 7.5 mins with total consumption... but about 20 times longer before all the O2 is depleted (maybe only 8 or so times before the CO2 becomes a factor)...

Sorry...your character is going to have to wait to be rescued. Either that or his friends are saved the cost of a funeral.

[only1doug]

Having watched the myth busters video I question their science, there are so many things wrong with their experiment that its almost funny:

Within 3 punches the machine had cracked the lid but after 600 it hadn't broken through:
The machines arm had insufficient extension, it wasn't able to extend further to take advantage of the cracks.
The machine hit the exact same spot each time without variation, b changing the location struck you would have more cracks and be able to free a section of the lid.
The machine's fist didn't appear to have any skeletal structure, making it much more cushioned than a real fist.
the martial artist chosen to provide the sample punch was wearing a boxing glove for the punch.
The martial artist chosen for the sample punch isn't an expert at the inch punch type of technique (which they sort of claimed he was).

I'll watch more of the video later, for the digging out bit but it looks to me like they set the experiment up designed to fail.

[Mutazoia]

Having watched the myth busters video I question their science, there are so many things wrong with their experiment that its almost funny:

Within 3 punches the machine had cracked the lid but after 600 it hadn't broken through:
The machines arm had insufficient extension, it wasn't able to extend further to take advantage of the cracks.
The machine hit the exact same spot each time without variation, b changing the location struck you would have more cracks and be able to free a section of the lid.
The machine's fist didn't appear to have any skeletal structure, making it much more cushioned than a real fist.
the martial artist chosen to provide the sample punch was wearing a boxing glove for the punch.
The martial artist chosen for the sample punch isn't an expert at the inch punch type of technique (which they sort of claimed he was).

I'll watch more of the video later, for the digging out bit but it looks to me like they set the experiment up designed to fail.

Keep in mind, with all that dirt on top of the coffin you are not going to be able to extend a punch past the lid any way, nor are you going to be able to vary the angle of attack.

A 3 inch punch is basically a really short jab...a strike that comes in straight at the target. With no room to reposition yourself any variance on the angle of the punch will negate any power behind it...it's going to be a glancing blow that will do more damage to you than your target. (When throwing any jab in martial arts you want to line your knuckles up with the bone in your fore-arm.)

Also the technique requires you to put your entire body weight behind the punch..it's not a punch thrown with just your fist. If you watch Bruce Lee doing his 1 inch punch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_LCs1eTZ9I) you can see he uses his legs and hips. Something you can't do laying flat on your back in a coffin. (You may get a little hip movement in there..but not much.)

[only1doug]

The "dirt" used for their escape route seemed very fine and dense, with no real surface to surface adhesion, given a different soil type I think the results might have been different.

There should be some possibility of attacking a different section of coffin lid, if only by using your other fist, although I'd expect a small amount of wriggle room to be available and varying the target point by even a couple of inches should give enough variation to create a second crack in the lid.

Regardless, RL impossibility or not, the OP was asking for a way to make it work in game, the options seem to be:

1. break a small section then dig up

2. lift entire lid and all the earth on top at once.

[Mutazoia]

The "dirt" used for their escape route seemed very fine and dense, with no real surface to surface adhesion, given a different soil type I think the results might have been different.

There should be some possibility of attacking a different section of coffin lid, if only by using your other fist, although I'd expect a small amount of wriggle room to be available and varying the target point by even a couple of inches should give enough variation to create a second crack in the lid.

Regardless, RL impossibility or not, the OP was asking for a way to make it work in game, the options seem to be:

1. break a small section then dig up

2. lift entire lid and all the earth on top at once.

Well as a DM he can make it work any way he want's to ...but the math just doesn't support any hope for the poor entombed PC. :smallbiggrin:

[awa]

it sorta depends do you want a hyper realistic game or just a plausible one.

In regards to there test yes i think a real puncher might be a bit more effective but i think that would be evened out by the fact of injury and using up your air faster. And as soon as you put the first big hole in the coffin now you have dirt starting to fall in your eyes and mouth and your still not done punching.

that said if you are playing a heroic fantasy game with merely plausible physics i would likely allow your average midlevel fighter type to break free.
And a monk definitely probably even at level 1 if they had a decent strength

[Isamu Dyson]

Here's the million GP question: can the average zombie or even vampire bust out through sheer undead might alone (even factoring enough Natural 20s into the equation)?

[awa]

well they do have the advantage of not needing air or getting tired the things that are the real limits. also vampires can turn gaseous which has got to give them an edge.

[Eldan]

And they don't need to breathe. Also, vampires should have it way easier than zombies, they are not only quite a bit stronger, they are also faster.

[Michellus]

Clearly being undead is an advantage when you are buried alive. As most people said they can keep hitting it untill they crit it enough to destroy the lid. Not to mention that they have all the time in the world. But what about freedom of movement? Lets say your undead character is wearing a ring of continous freedom of movement. I am guessing the lid wont magically open. But after you destroy it would you be able to just glide out through the dirt?

And what about spell casting? Can you cast spells in the coffin? Disintegrate seems like an easy way to remove the dirt but what about other spells? Like casting a fireball inside the coffin and taking damage yourself but would that be enough force to blow open the hole?

[limejuicepowder]

Fireball specifically creates no pressure when it goes off, so it definitely won't blow the coffin or dirt away. It would set the inside of the coffin on fire though, which is pretty much the only way this situation gets worse for the poor PC.

How many teleportation effects are tied to sight? Could a swordsage trivialize this plight with shadow jaunt, or does he need to see where he's going? What about DD?

[Michellus]

Fireball specifically creates no pressure when it goes off, so it definitely won't blow the coffin or dirt away. It would set the inside of the coffin on fire though, which is pretty much the only way this situation gets worse for the poor PC.

How many teleportation effects are tied to sight? Could a swordsage trivialize this plight with shadow jaunt, or does he need to see where he's going? What about DD?

But the coffin will probably be destroyed right? So after that he can start digging. Also since a fireball is magical fire does that mean it consumes no oxygen?

[Chen]

How many teleportation effects are tied to sight? Could a swordsage trivialize this plight with shadow jaunt, or does he need to see where he's going? What about DD?

Shadow Jaunt (and that line of techniques) I believe require line of effect and line of sight to your location. I don't believe that is a requirement for Dimension door though.

[Spuddles]

Unless a lot of tamping takes place while filling in the grave, digging out wont be that hard. You are all seriously overestimating the density of loose earth. If you had enough lung capacity you could pretty much wriggle through it like some sort of reverse dive.

Now an old grave with a zombie in it, you couldnt punch your way out or wriggle out, but dead hands have a lot of time to claw their way up.

[Ohiohi]

A wizard can just Shout! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shout.htm) or Passwall! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passwall.htm) or Dimesion Door! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm) or Teleport! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) or Creatively use magic jar! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) or Push with the forceful hand! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcefulHand.htm) or Shadow walk! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowWalk.htm) or summon monsters... all these things with 6/7th level spells listed in the SRD... i'm sure that someone more experienced than me can find other ways

[Ravens_cry]

Jamie's a cool guy and all, but really, he isn't all that buff. 18 might be the peak human achievement, but even 14 takes rather serious chops over the human average of 10-11.

Actually, 22 is closer to peak human achievement. 18 base, +4 from levelling.

[Flickerdart]

Peak human achievement in D&D is actually a lot higher than that - in a previous thread we were able to use things like the Prodigy template to get a regular non-magical human up to I think 26 with +4 to Strength checks.

[awa]

that's a can of worms because a lot of people my self included don't believe real people can get to level 16. level 6 is often cited as the very best in the real world.

[anacalgion]

Actually, 22 is closer to peak human achievement. 18 base, +4 from levelling.

Except no one in real life gets past like level 3 in order for the system to work. So yeah, 18 tops.

[Flickerdart]

Louis Cyr (Canada represent!) is considered to have been the strongest man in the world, historically. This is important because rather than referring to any one record, we can test his general strength.

His most impressive feat is said to be lifting 18 men (4,337 pounds). A character can lift up to twice their maximum load. For sanity reasons, we can assume he has the Natural Heavyweight feat that doubles his carrying capacity, meaning he must have a heavy load of 1084.25 pounds. This puts his strength at 28.

He also resisted the pull of four heavy horses. A heavy horse has a Strength check of +3, and each subsequent horse would add a +2 for Aid Another, for a total of +9. Therefore, his modifier is at least a +9 - which coincidentally happens to be 28 strength!

A natural 18, then an effective +10 from Prodigy, would put us exactly there - a Strength score of 20, and a +4 on all Strength checks, for a total modifier of 9.

[Isamu Dyson]

How much does "lack of leverage" impose on Strength rolls?

---


A wizard can...

Magic is easy. We're working with brute (muscular) force, be it via attacks or slower applications of pressure.

[Der_DWSage]

Jamie's a cool guy and all, but really, he isn't all that buff. 18 might be the peak human achievement, but even 14 takes rather serious chops over the human average of 10-11.

I dunno. Basing it on what he can lift, 117-175 pounds doesn't seem out of the question. I'm pretty sure he's lifted things weighing 100 pounds on the show before, and I did say I was being slightly generous in order to get him to that 'average adventurer that has anything to do with fighting' level.

[Ravens_cry]

I dunno. Basing it on what he can lift, 117-175 pounds doesn't seem out of the question. I'm pretty sure he's lifted things weighing 100 pounds on the show before, and I did say I was being slightly generous in order to get him to that 'average adventurer that has anything to do with fighting' level.
For this myth the created a robot to do the punching anyway, based on the power of an MMA fighter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7zYVybHyNbI#t=193). Jamie is pretty strong, in a power-lifter kind of way though. There may be some padding, but if you see him without his shirt on (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PxB5CseJqDg#t=157), you can tell there is some obvious muscle under there as well.

[Spuddles]

Is jamie the walrus looking mother****er?

[Eldan]

How much does "lack of leverage" impose on Strength rolls?

I'd say just use the general rules for "Unfavourable conditions". -2 on the roll. -5 if it's really bad.

[Evandar]

Is jamie the walrus looking mother****er?

Ayup. That'd be him. Walrus-looking is weirdly apt.

[limejuicepowder]

Louis Cyr (Canada represent!) is considered to have been the strongest man in the world, historically. This is important because rather than referring to any one record, we can test his general strength.

His most impressive feat is said to be lifting 18 men (4,337 pounds). A character can lift up to twice their maximum load. For sanity reasons, we can assume he has the Natural Heavyweight feat that doubles his carrying capacity, meaning he must have a heavy load of 1084.25 pounds. This puts his strength at 28.

He also resisted the pull of four heavy horses. A heavy horse has a Strength check of +3, and each subsequent horse would add a +2 for Aid Another, for a total of +9. Therefore, his modifier is at least a +9 - which coincidentally happens to be 28 strength!

A natural 18, then an effective +10 from Prodigy, would put us exactly there - a Strength score of 20, and a +4 on all Strength checks, for a total modifier of 9.

What a boss - I've never heard of this guy, thanks for the info :)

Before I went to wikipedia to read about him, I was about to post something about PED's easily being able to boost a natural 18, which would explain higher than 18 scores in people with only a few levels. But Louis is pre-PED, which makes him that much more awesome.

[Ravens_cry]

What a boss - I've never heard of this guy, thanks for the info :)

Yeah, he's pretty famous up in Canada. It shows that someone super strong is less likely to look like Superman than well, basically a barrel of muscles with some extra padding. Certainly not the sculpted Conan look.


Before I went to wikipedia to read about him, I was about to post something about PED's easily being able to boost a natural 18, which would explain higher than 18 scores in people with only a few levels. But Louis is pre-PED, which makes him that much more awesome.
I think the scores, given how common they will come up in, even in conservative rolling methods like 3d6 or low point buy, are meant to represent a somewhat restricted range, just like no one can be a little person if they roll for their height and weight.

[limejuicepowder]

I think the scores, given how common they will come up in, even in conservative rolling methods like 3d6 or low point buy, are meant to represent a somewhat restricted range, just like no one can be a little person if they roll for their height and weight.

Yeah I've thought the same thing before. The range is reflective of the "average" pool, roughly 98% of the population. Within that pool there are select few with exceptional ability, but it doesn't include true outliers created by growth or brain abnormalities.

[Thrair]

We can assume that Arnold Schwarzenegger at the height of his career (circa "Conan the Barbarian") had the equivalent of an 18 strength. Not even he could get enough force behind a punch at 3 inches to bust through a buried coffin lid.

Ok, it's a minor pet peeve, but:

Bodybuilders, like Arnold, are nowhere near top-level strength. That muscle is for show, and much of their regimen involves bulking up muscles that look good, but don't serve much practical purpose. Then they starve themselves to increase muscle definition, weakening the muscles in the process.

Took me a while to find it again, but this (http://coelasquid.deviantart.com/art/Abdomination-How-to-draw-beef-132538271) link shows a good example of realistic-strong musculature vs faux-strong musculature. Turns out it was drawn by the same artist at that makes the webcomic MGDMT.


Anywho, Arnold was probably stronger than average, but by no means near the limit of "18 as max for mundane schmuck in real world".



Sorry, that's just a personal pet peeve of mine. I felt this OCD need to comment on it.

[Ravens_cry]

Schwarzenegger is (or was) strong. I think he was the only person on-set who could lift the the Minigun from Terminator 2, but, yes, body-builders and power lifters have different goals, and the latter will be stronger than the former. Olympic weightlifters, for example, looking nothing like Conan.
It's actually very fascinating to watch these people move. You can see a layer of fat, but underneath? That's steel. It's such a complex motion that can be really hard to get right in animation as different parts accelerate and decelerate differently in subtle ways.

[Averis Vol]

A note on the undead thing. While a zombie does have all the time in the world to break out, if he gets the lid broken and the dirt starts to fill in the coffin, his ass is staying there for quite some time. A vampire on the other hand has no such trouble, as he can just use gaseous form his way through the loose soul (As long as there is some sort of allowed airflow)

[Ravens_cry]

A note on the undead thing. While a zombie does have all the time in the world to break out, if he gets the lid broken and the dirt starts to fill in the coffin, his ass is staying there for quite some time. A vampire on the other hand has no such trouble, as he can just use gaseous form his way through the loose soul (As long as there is some sort of allowed airflow)
I think you are forgetting how much that dirt would be compressed under about six feet more on top of it. And if it gets wet . . . heaven help our vampire coffin escapee if it has been raining or if the water table is super high.

[limejuicepowder]

I think you are forgetting how much that dirt would be compressed under about six feet more on top of it.

Yeah, I agree with this. Think about making a snow fort by burrowing in to a snow bank: it's easy to dig away at first, but once you get several inches in it's really hard-packed. This problem is exacerbated by not having any leverage, or space to put the dirt. I think it much more likely that the zombie would dig enough to collapse the dirt on top of him and he'd be unable to move in the slightest. The vampire would suffer a similar fate, unless the dirt was light-packed enough to use gaseous form.

[Averis Vol]

I think you are forgetting how much that dirt would be compressed under about six feet more on top of it. And if it gets wet . . . heaven help our vampire coffin escapee if it has been raining or if the water table is super high.

Not sure I can agree. As long as there is any air left, a vampire can slowly but surely drift himself out into the night sky. There is no fear of suffocating, nor any of the other rational human fears; just waiting (and maybe a little annoyance at having to wait.)

Granted, if it is completely packed solid so there is no air whatsoever, yea he's boned.

EDIT: Ohh, theres also that thing about vampires in moving water, so if theres a bit of a flood, he's dead there too.

[Ravens_cry]

Not sure I can agree. As long as there is any air left, a vampire can slowly but surely drift himself out into the night sky. There is no fear of suffocating, nor any of the other rational human fears; just waiting (and maybe a little annoyance at having to wait.)

Granted, if it is completely packed solid so there is no air whatsoever, yea he's boned.

Like in wet earth. Even dry, compacted Earth is really pushing the limits of gaseous form. It says small holes and cracks, nothing about getting through loose soil, let alone compacted dirt.


EDIT: Ohh, theres also that thing about vampires in moving water, so if theres a bit of a flood, he's dead there too.
True.

[Spuddles]

Ok, it's a minor pet peeve, but:

Bodybuilders, like Arnold, are nowhere near top-level strength. That muscle is for show, and much of their regimen involves bulking up muscles that look good, but don't serve much practical purpose. Then they starve themselves to increase muscle definition, weakening the muscles in the process.

Took me a while to find it again, but this (http://coelasquid.deviantart.com/art/Abdomination-How-to-draw-beef-132538271) link shows a good example of realistic-strong musculature vs faux-strong musculature. Turns out it was drawn by the same artist at that makes the webcomic MGDMT.


Anywho, Arnold was probably stronger than average, but by no means near the limit of "18 as max for mundane schmuck in real world".



Sorry, that's just a personal pet peeve of mine. I felt this OCD need to comment on it.

Arnold was definitely an 18. I'm not sure why people think 18s are rare- they show up in a little less than 1 in 200 people. That's a rate of 0.5%. Cystic fibrosis is less common. Domestic abuse is about as frequent.

[Averis Vol]

What if a vampire kept switching between his various form choices? a Dire wolf is incredibly strong, but its also a large creature which means as it grows in size, it would displace the dirt in the path of least resistance (Up towards the open sky.) Being a quadruped it has a higher lifting capacity, so it would have a much better chance of getting out. He could also just use children of the night, but that breaks the spirit of the contest.

[Coidzor]

Simply put, I don't really see Zombies rising from their graves in a timely manner if they can at all, especially considering their single action only limitation.

A Human zombie is going to have a 12 strength though, given a 10 to start with, so their slam attack is dealing 1d6+1 to the coffin to start with, so on a roll of 5 or 6, or 1/3 of the time they hit, they'll do damage to it. That seems like it might just end up being faster than trying to burst through it, but come time to dig out... if it's slow going for a person to do it, it'd be like watching paint dry for a zombie, if they can do it at all.

Even without the strength increase, I'd say skeletons should probably get out sooner myself, though it'd take them longer to get out of the coffin, due to having to make do with bursting it with a strength check as its claws aren't strong enough to damage the coffin due to not being able to crit on objects.

[Michellus]

But if the dirt collapses isnt it more loose then because it moved? Thus allowing you to slowly dig out. It might take a few days but i think it is possible. Then again i have never been buried alive. So what do i know.

Also would freedom of movement be usefull in this situation? Since i don't quite know if being pinned by dirt qualifies for the freedom.