scrolls and caster level

[Raezeman]

I know what the DMG says about casting a spell from a scroll, but last session, there was something that made me wonder.

So let's say, you have a normal scroll of dispel magic, aka made by wizard level 5 and thus caster level 5th. According to the rules, an arcane caster with caster level 5 that has dispel magic on his spell list can cast it without troubles. But what if a duskblade tried to use that scroll? Dispel magic is a level 4 spell for duskblades, meaning they get access to dispell magic at level 13.
So would a duskblade of level 5 be able to use the scroll without problems, or should he succeed on a caster level check?

[jokeaccount]

I might be wrong here but i think each class can freely cast only from scrolls that have that class's version of the spell. I.E a duskblade can freely cast a scroll of dispel magic (duskblade version). Not sure if he can cast from wizard arcane scrolls. Note that wizards and sorcerers share the same spell category but the rest of the modified arcane casters dont

[supermonkeyjoe]

You need to meet three prerequisites to cast from a scroll



The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.



Additionally:


If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

The scroll of dispel magic made by a level 5 wizard which is is a third level spell with caster level 5 would need:
Arcane caster
With Dispel Magic on their class spell list
An intelligence of at least 13
Caster level 5

to cast successfully with no check, all of the prerequisites are based off spell on the scroll, spell level, caster level, arcane or divine.

The scroll doesn't care at what level you would normally be able to cast the spell, in effect the scrolls creator has already done all of the hard work.

[TuggyNE]

I know what the DMG says about casting a spell from a scroll, but last session, there was something that made me wonder.

So let's say, you have a normal scroll of dispel magic, aka made by wizard level 5 and thus caster level 5th. According to the rules, an arcane caster with caster level 5 that has dispel magic on his spell list can cast it without troubles. But what if a duskblade tried to use that scroll? Dispel magic is a level 4 spell for duskblades, meaning they get access to dispell magic at level 13.
So would a duskblade of level 5 be able to use the scroll without problems, or should he succeed on a caster level check?


To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake.

Scrolls are spell completion, so they'd need to be level 13 to cast without a CL check.


I might be wrong here but i think each class can freely cast only from scrolls that have that class's version of the spell. I.E a duskblade can freely cast a scroll of dispel magic (duskblade version). Not sure if he can cast from wizard arcane scrolls. Note that wizards and sorcerers share the same spell category but the rest of the modified arcane casters dont

The only distinction for activation is a) arcane or divine and b) whether or not the character has the spell on their class list. Scrolls do not have a class of their own as such.

[jokeaccount]

Well then why would a wand of haste (random class that has haste as lvl 1 spell) be cheaper than a wizard's haste wand? I think it matters what level the spell is in your spell list

[TuggyNE]

Well then why would a wand of haste (random class that has haste as lvl 1 spell) be cheaper than a wizard's haste wand? I think it matters what level the spell is in your spell list

a) Wands and scrolls are not the same thing, using different activation methods; b) spell lists are used for cost calculations and CL/DC calculations, but not for activation; and c) who says, RAW-wise, that Trapsmith haste would be cheaper, or even available?

[DEMON]

who says, RAW-wise, that Trapsmith haste would be cheaper, or even available?

As far as price is concerned, the rules are pretty straightforward, I believe.
As far as availability... Warlock? :smalltongue: And a Trapsmith with Scribe Scroll feat, obviously.

[TuggyNE]

As far as price is concerned, the rules are pretty straightforward, I believe.

So they are.
Several arcane spells are different in level for sorcerers and wizards than they are for bards [and presumably other such partial casters]. Such spells appear on the table [of market price] at the level appropriate to a sorcerer or wizard (considered the default because bards typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

Therefore, scrolls of haste are sold at the price a Wizard would charge. Even if they were not scribed by a Wizard. Even if they were scribed much cheaper.

[DEMON]

So they are.

Therefore, scrolls of haste are sold at the price a Wizard would charge. Even if they were not scribed by a Wizard. Even if they were scribed much cheaper.

I think you are reading too much into the RAW here.

They are on the table, because they are considered the default. A Bard, however, can scribe the scroll himself, as can a Trapsmith and as eventually can a Warlock.

The table assumes the scrolls you usually get to buy were created by a Wizard, since he's the de facto go to guy for item creation (in core, that is).


While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

You can create a scroll of particular spell level at any CL between your current CL and the lowest CL possible to cast it.


Scrolls: Base price = spell level × caster level × 25 gp.

And the pricing formula is here.

So if a Trapsmith can cast a CL1 haste, he can scribe a scroll of a 1st level Haste spell at CL1 for a market price of 25 gp and a cost to create it at half that amount (plus the XP).

[TuggyNE]

I think you are reading too much into the RAW here.

They are on the table, because they are considered the default. A Bard, however, can scribe the scroll himself, as can a Trapsmith and as eventually can a Warlock.

The table assumes the scrolls you usually get to buy were created by a Wizard, since he's the de facto go to guy for item creation (in core, that is).

Let me clarify, then. Anyone can scribe scrolls if they have the feat and spellcasting, and their cost to do so depends on standard magic item creation rules. That much is clear, and that means that a Trapsmith scribing haste would do so rather cheaper than a Wizard.

However, it is also RAW, as noted, that scrolls actually available on the open market are priced by Wizard/Cleric standards, whatever their source. Is this wholly logical? No. Is it wholly illogical and bogus? Not quite. Is it RAW? Yes. :smallwink:

[DEMON]

Oh you were referring to the general market prices. Then yes, we are in agreement.

You could probably always hire a Warlock shopkeeper or some such to scribe and sell you some of these scrolls at their lowest available spell and caster levels (and thus a "discounted" price), but generally, you get to buy the Wizard version.

[Curmudgeon]

You could probably always hire a Warlock shopkeeper or some such to scribe and sell you some of these scrolls at their lowest available spell and caster levels (and thus a "discounted" price), but ...
I'm not sure why you would think that. The Warlock knows the market prices, so why would they work for you at less than what they can earn elsewhere?

Back on the original topic, if you're using Use Magic Device to activate a scroll, you've got some options not available to spellcasters.

When it comes to the ability score, the scroll doesn't "record" the information about what ability was used when it was scribed. (Scrolls only have arcane/divine types, and caster level; nothing else from the person who scribed it is retained.) So any ability score which could have been used to scribe the scroll is adequate for activation purposes. If it's a divine scroll it could have been crafted by a Cleric or Favored Soul — and if you've got a lower WIS than CHA, you can proceed with activation using the latter.
If you want to use Emulate an Ability Score instead, you make an extra check — and you get to use that ability score when the spell activates instead of the minimum score normally used for scroll activation. (The down side is that, if you do make that check, you're stuck with it even if the result isn't high enough to activate the scroll; you fail, and suffer any mishap consequences.)

[cakellene]

I'm not sure why you would think that. The Warlock knows the market prices, so why would they work for you at less than what they can earn elsewhere?


So they won't have to deal with hassles and expenses of being a merchant themselvees?

[DEMON]

I'm not sure why you would think that. The Warlock knows the market prices, so why would they work for you at less than what they can earn elsewhere?

Because they are providing you a different product - lower CL than what the Wizard is selling. And the costs to create it would also be lower, so he gets to keep his margin.

Why would he charge you for a 3rd level spell at CL5, when he's providing you a lvl 1 spell at CL1?

[KillianHawkeye]

I think the better question is "Why would anybody even WANT a scroll of haste that only lasts one round?" :smallconfused:

[DEMON]

I think the better question is "Why would anybody even WANT a scroll of haste that only lasts one round?" :smallconfused:

Haste is just an example, since it's one of the spells, that a Trapsmith gets as a 1st level spell, but it's a higher level spell for other classes.

Feel free to substitute with Cat's Grace, or any other spell that comes at various spell and caster levels for different classes, for the sake of this discussion :smallamused:

Dispel Magic, Knock might be better candidates.