Reliving my gish dreams

[Sam K]

So, I was talking to a friend the other day about the first 3.5 D&D campaign we played in together. It was a horrible mess of DM playing favs, and bad optimization on our part. We tried to build hybrids (that we didn't even know were called 'gish' back then).

It did not go well.

Still, this got me toying with gish builds again, and I decided to see if I could do better this time. More specifically, I decided to see how much melee power I could squeeze out of a character while still getting 9th level spells. I only got my concept to lvl 12 before reality set in and I had to get some sleep before work(also before I ran out of easy options), though, but what I came up with was the following:

Duskblade 3/Wizard 3 (domain wizard)/Spellsword 1/Abjurant champion 5. At this point the character had 10 BAB and cast spells as a 9th level wizard (plus the amazing arcane might of a 3rd level duskblade, but hey, extra spells...)

Anyway, that's just my chassis, if someone has a better way to do those first 12 levels I'm willing to listen :)

Goal: The character should be able to cast 9th level arcane spells while maintaining as much melee power as possible (mainly as a damage dealer, but obviously being able to take a hit isn't a bad thing). For simplicity I'm using BAB as the main measure of melee ability: preferably the character should get 16 BAB for 4 attacks on full attack.

I'm looking more for a chassis of race/class and some suggested feats, with some room to customize, than a detailed build of every feat, skillpoint and WBL selected. Although since this is mostly for fun (though if I ever play in another campaign, I'll be likely to use this char – still, big “if” right now), I'll happily discuss more detailed builds as well.

Rules:

The character should be a gish from level 1 to 20, all day long. What I mean is, no taking the first 10 levels as caster to unlock a single buff/class ability that makes me a melee monster. No, not even if you persist it. Obviously access to buffs is a major part of being a gish, but the gish nature shouldn't hinge on a single spell, or be unavailable for half of the characters life cycle.

Min maxing is expected and encouraged, cheese should be minimized. I realize this is a fine line. Using a combination of powers like they were expected to be used, in order to get the most out of them, is min maxing (and that's fine). Using poorly written spell descriptions and lack of defined limitations to break the universe is cheesy, and I try to keep it to a minimum. For example: persisting holy power with DMM is min maxing. It's obvious what persist does. It's obvious that people can get lots of meta magic use out of DMM. It's obvious enough that people will try to persist the most powerful buffs in the game. Anything that involves “It doesn't actually specifically say that you cant do this” is probably cheese. That said, if you can come up with some really good cheddar I wont set the internet police on you.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, playing the character should make for a good story. I know 9th level spells can break the gaming world pretty badly. And that's fine, as long as it's done in a cool way. Gandalf fighting the Balrog is a good story. Gandalf plane shifting to his personal demi plane, researching “Gandalfs ultimate Balrog destroyer” for a 1000 years (while no time passes due to different laws of physics on that plane), then nuking the Balrog from orbit without ever facing it, is pretty dull. To me. Even if it IS smarter. Destroying the orc army is a good story. Revising reality so orcs start worshiping Moradin and become a race of gruff, hard working blacksmiths is... well, pretty funny actually, but not what I'm looking for.

And holy crap, my boss complains that my work emails are too wordy, he should see what I do in my spare time!

[Lord Haart]

In before: cleric. 'Cause reality.

[Harbinger]

In before: cleric. 'Cause reality.

Or druid, or favored soul, or wizard with shapechange, but somehow I don't think that's what he was looking for. :smalltongue:

[Sam K]

Even I can solve it with a cleric. Hell, cleric 20 is already a gish! DMM: Holy power is just a bonus.

[Dusk Eclipse]

(Elven)Wizard 6/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/Abjurant Champion 5

17 BAB & Casts as a level 17th wizard (which means 9th level spells), it takes a while to get going, but since you are starting at level 12 (from the look of things) it doesn't really matter. At that level you cast as a 10th level Wizard and have 9 BAB which is ok, specially since you have access to a huge variety of buffs to compensate.

Other option is the classic Sorcadin:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/ Spell Sword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 which gets you 16th BAB, 18 Sorcerer casting (9th level spells) with amazing Charisma synergy.

By level 12 you cast as level 10 sorcer and have 10 BAB with all the amazing abilities from Abjurant champion

[Urpriest]

Here's the issue: you've already sacrificed three caster levels, so you can't lose any more. You can only lose two more points of BAB. You aren't going to qualify for anything more that has full BAB and full caster level, so your remaining levels should be 3/4 BAB and full casting. Basically, this means Sacred Exorcist 8, though there are a few obscure other options from some FR books.

Are you aware of the various standard gish builds, like Paladin 2/Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8, or Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5, and the like?

[Sam K]

Good stuff!

I wasn't actually starting at 12, 12 was just as far as I got in my own experiment. Preferably the build should be usable from lvl 1 (or as early as possible).

I discounted sorcadin because of the "must be LG", but I suppose there's nothing stoping me from doing it with one of the alternative paladins. Sorcadin of slaughter!

[Madwand99]

There are a lot of good gish builds. You've seen a few already. My current favorite starts Human Paragon 1/Focused Martial Transmuter 1/Human Paragon 2/Crusader 1/Wizard +1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5.

Crusader can optionally be swapped for Fighter. After Abj Champ, you have a few options. Sacred Exorcist 8 gives you 16 BAB and 9th level spells. For quite a bit more power, take Incantatrix 4/Jade Pheonix Mage 4. Persist your best buffs all day long.

Using Human Paragon has a lot of advantages. The main one is what you stated you wanted: You are a gish from very early levels, and don't have to wait a long time for a prestige class to kick in.

As for feats, there are a lot of good options. My current favorite build mixes in tripping-focused feats, currently Knowledge Devotion, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Improved Trip, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Craft Wondrous Items, Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Invisible Spell, Iron Will (via Otyugh Hole), Standstill, and Knock-down. There are lots of other good choices, though. Have fun and hope that helps.

[pilvento]

My personal favourite, played it from 1 to 20, 4 year campaign.

Monk1/Sorcerer4/Enlightned fist6/swiftblade10

asetic mage for CHA to AC

It wont get you 9 lvl spells but is a diferent aproach.

You can also grab kung-fu genius and use Int instead of cha:

Monk/wizard4/Enlightned fist10/abjurant champion5

9lvl spells, 14bab, and you can channel touch spells and rays.
And mighty wallop of course, that flurry will hurt a lot.

[Faily]

I wanted to take a build akin to this to the table at one point, but that GM shot it down. XD Not complaining though, as my "infamous spell-tank" would've been a one-hit wonder.

Human
Warblade 2/Wizard (Abjurer) 7/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1


(Wizard 7 because I couldn't think of anything else at the moment. Character was level 11).


Feats:
Mind Over Body
Improved Toughness (granted GM allows you to use this in place of Toughness for requirements)
Arcane Toughness
Combat Casting
Battle Casting
Practised Spellcaster
Arcane Strike
Combat Expertise (could easily be replaced by something else. was on my original build to pump AC even further)
Scribe Scroll
Extend Spell


Could of course be more optimized. ^_~

It was a fun idea. An arcane spellcaster that had better HP, saves and AC than anyone else in the party... and even a little bit of self-sufficiency with Arcane Toughness and some silly spells like Synostodweomer.

9th level spells, effectively CL 21 when in Mystic Phoenix Stance, BAB +16.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1 is the ideal start. You can substitute the first six levels for anything that gets 4/6 spellcasting and 4/6 BAB with the proficiencies to qualify for Spellsword. Examples include Human or Elf Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2, or Warblade 1/ Crusader 1/ Wizard 4, or even Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1. You basically want to be only two levels of spellcasting and two points of BAB behind when you hit 7th level, so you can go into Abjurant Champion with as little opportunity cost as possible.

I'd personally prefer Fighter 2/ Wizard 4 with the Dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighter. Human Paragon is decidedly better for skill points and stats, and Elf Paragon isn't all that great IMO unless you actually would have taken Weapon Focus for one of those, and/or you really want that base Reflex save. In the early levels you should get Combat Reflexes and use a reach weapon with armor spikes, since a gish plays smart even when his spells make him the strongest combatant in the party. Dungeoncrasher can be used when you Polymorph into a physically powerful form such as a War Troll, and you can also use it with Melf's Unicorn Arrow, especially since it doesn't say the arrows have to originate from you so they can force opponents into the ground.

With a Wizard-based Gish you can lose two more BAB and one more spellcasting level in your last thirteen levels after the Spellsword dip. Of course you're going to take Abjurant Champion 5, so those last eight levels can be something like Incantatrix 4/ Eldritch Knight 4. This leaves you with 17th level spellcasting and +16 BAB at 20th level, and you can persist plenty of buffs with Incantatrix. I'd actually take the first two or three Incantatrix levels before Abjurant Champion, considering you can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells outside of combat as the action economy system only exists during initiative. If you use fractional BAB from UA you can actually make it something like Fighter 2/ Wizard 3/ Mindbender* 1/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 3/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 1/ Eldritch Knight 4 instead. Knight Phantom can be substituted for Eldritch Knight, but I don't find the prerequisite cost to be worth using it over EK. *Only use Mindbender if you wouldn't be allowed to use (Greater) Luminous Armor, which requires a good alignment (not an exalted status) to cast and it's the only armor bonus spell that benefits from Abjurant Armor.

If using the Paladin/Sorcerer start, go Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. That gets 18th level spellcasting and +16 BAB at 20th level, and has a lot of Cha synergy. You can make him an Illumian with the Naenhoon runeword to use Sacred Exorcist turning to persist two spells per day, and/or get Divine Might to add your Cha bonus to damage. You'll want Arcane Preparation to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor, and use Ancestral Relic for a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) to trivialize the limited number of spells known. Also remember that you can use wands of any Paladin spell as long as you have at least one level in it.

Necessary feats include Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Minor Shapeshift, and Power Attack, plus Combat Reflexes is extremely useful if you'll be Polymorphing into large or bigger forms.

[Talionis]

Warblade, Wu Jen into Jade Phoenix mage into your choice of Archmage from original DMs guide for tons of clones who can't cast spells, but can attack with maneuvers. Abjurant Champion if Archmage is too cheesy for you. Still tons of interesting things you can do.

[Vincent Dragon]

Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 5/Runesmith 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1

BAB +16, Casts as/Spells per day as Wizard 17, can cast into Full Plate even with Tower Shield due to Rune Magic (replaces Somatic), can channel spells through your weapon better than a Duskblade since this works with any spell not only with touch range (but really limited uses per day, it's there just for coolness), and a lot of other abilities.

Basically you got the minimum BAB and Casting of a Meele/Caster level 20 should have, and got the "bound" between those two worlds: Cast + Full Attack with Spell Channel, and casts without Arcane Spell Failure while armored.

In another case, levels of Fighter, Spellsword and the like could be replaced with some Initiator Class + Jade Phoenix Mage, so you get Maneuvers too.

[Raezeman]

how about unearthed arcana battle sorcerer variant?

[A_S]

A build I've had sitting around for a while:

Human

Stats (28 point buy):
Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Abjurant Champion 2
8 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Cha 16
9 - Warrior Skald 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sublime Chord), Channel Legacy (b)
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19

ACF: Skilled City-Dweller (Ride > Tumble)

Skills:

1 (24) - Knowledge (arcana) 4, Knowledge (history) 4, Knowledge (nature) 4, Perform (poetry) 4, Perform (sing) 4, Spellcraft 4
2 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 5, Knowledge (history) 5, Listen .5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 5, Perform (sing) 5, Spellcraft 5
3 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 6, Listen 1.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 6, Perform (sing) 6, Spellcraft 6
4 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 7, Listen 3 (cc), Perform (poetry) 7, Perform (sing) 7
5 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 8, Listen 4 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8, Perform (sing) 8, Profession (astrologer) .5
6 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 9, Listen 4.5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 8.5 (cc), Perform (sing) 9 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1 (cc)
7 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 10, Listen 5 (cc), Perform (poetry) 9 (cc), Perform (sing) 10 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 1.5 (cc)
8 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 11, Profession (astrologer) 4 (cc)
9 (8) - Listen 12, Profession (astrologer) 5
10 (6) - Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13 (cc), Profession (astrologer) 6 (cc)
11 (8) - Concentration 8
12 (6) - Spellcraft 12
13 (6) - Concentration 14
14 (6) - Balance 1.5 (cc), Concentration 17
15 (8) - Balance 5 (cc), Concentration 18
16 (8) - Concentration 19, Spellcraft 18, Tumble 1
17 (8) - Concentration 20, Listen 18, Spellcraft 20
18 (8) - Concentration 21, Listen 21, Spellcraft 21, Tumble 4
19 (8) - Concentration 22, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 1, Listen 22, Spellcraft 22, Tumble 5, Use Magic Device 1, SKILL TRICK: Collector of Stories
20 (8) - Autohypnosis 1 (cc), Concentration 23, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 1, Listen 23, Spellcraft 23, SKILL TRICK: Twisted Charge
A gish right from level 1: Your first five levels are Duskblade 1-5 (when it's extremely powerful), and then at level 11, when Duskblade casting has started to lag behind full casters and feel wimpy, you make the transition into Sublime Chord for some real magic.
Melee power: 16 BAB, 2H Power Attack, Arcane Strike, and Duskblade channeling, which works great with Sublime Chord's early access to Irresistable Dance (one of the best spells to channel in the game).
No cheese: Nothing in the build requires any ambiguous interpretations to work.
Cool party-friendly defensive abilities at high levels, thanks to all seven levels of Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil class features (advanced via Legacy Champion).
Plenty of story hooks in the build: What's the deal with your legacy weapon? How did you move beyond the petty battle magic you started out with and learn true power?

[Eldariel]

If you need to be a gish from level 1, you have to start with Wizard. Wizard with good Strength is a viable warrior on level 1, Fighter with good Int still casts no spells. Duskblade is just wasted progression; you can't afford that. Or well, you can but it's mostly just worse than other full BAB classes.

I'll use Warrior as a stand-in for any full BAB class:
1. Warrior 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 would be a quintessential martial Wizard. Gets spellcasting plus armor on level 7, only 2 levels behind a full caster and 2 BAB behind a full warrior.

2. Wizard 6/Swiftblade 6 is a solid alternative if you want to move the lost caster levels a bit higher. Loses 3 BAB but no casting for the early career; loses 2 caster levels higher up.

3. Warrior 1/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5 is like the Spellsword-build except loses 1 more BAB, 1 less casting level. Loses Spellsword but c'est la vie.

4. Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight -> loses 3 BAB but only 1 level of casting ever. For reference, the Abjurant Champion build above would lose an extra level of casting on 13 to enter Eldritch Knight/Knight Phantom (or more BAB to use Sacred Exorcist instead). This uses Militia [Player's Guide to Faerun]-feat to qualify for "all martial weapons"-prerequisite.


Warrior can be Fighter, Crusader, Ranger, Barbarian, Warblade, Paladin, Duskblade. Note that builds incorporating Spellsword need Heavy Armor proficiency which means at least one of the Warrior levels needs to be Fighter, Crusader or Paladin for heavy armor (or medium armor class + feat).

I'm personally partial to Rangers as my first level due to the combination of 6+Int (on an Int-based caster) skills on the first level (*4) from a good list, ability to use Ranger-wands without UMD, Trapfinding or Tracking depending on which you prefer & either Wild Empathy or spell-likes from an ACF. Oh, and a Favored Enemy.

Ranger 2 isn't bad either since Combat Style circumvents prerequisites so you can e.g. pick up Rapid Shot (casters can actually make archery work higher up) and skip all the archery nonsense and be a solid archer in addition to being a melee beast with just that investment. Of course, Ranger 2 means you can't use Spellsword which is kind of a pity.

Other frontloaded classes, Fighter with the Drow of the Underdark Hit'n'Run Fighter Variant gets a pretty decent setup but again give up Heavy Armor. Normal Fighter or Exoticist/Targeteer [Dragon Magazine #310] are also decent alternatives.

Barbarian is obviously cool; you get Pounce without spells. It does lack heavy armor tho and Rage does not go well with spellcasting so you better save it for when you know you don't need/can't use magic.

Warblade and Crusader are obviously extremely solid even if you're limited to low level maneuvers and stances (up to 3rd if you take a bunch of Wizard-levels before taking the martial adept level). Getting only one stance has the advantage of you not having to worry about switching 'em; your spells will consume most of your actions anyways.

[Andezzar]

If you use Abjurant Champion in your build you would not need armor or the negation of ASF. With 5 levels of Abjurant Champion Greater Luminous Armor will give you a weightless +5 Full plate without a maximum DEX bonus to AC. I don't think you can easily top that with an item.

If you are an outsider or take either the Militia Feat or the Otherworldly feat you can end up with 17 BAB and level 19 Wizard casting:
Wizard 5/Knight Phantom (or Eldritch Knight) 10/Abjurant Champion 5

Eldritch Knight is pretty mediocre but does not require semi useless entry feats and is not tied to Eberron.

[Stux]

One of my favourite fighter/caster gishes is Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator

Gets level 9 spells if you take the rest of your levels in Cleric, and has an initiator level of 15, so you get a level 8 maneuver if you delay your last Vindicator level.

[Snowbluff]

(Elven)Wizard 6/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/Abjurant Champion 5

17 BAB & Casts as a level 17th wizard (which means 9th level spells), it takes a while to get going, but since you are starting at level 12 (from the look of things) it doesn't really matter. At that level you cast as a 10th level Wizard and have 9 BAB which is ok, specially since you have access to a huge variety of buffs to compensate.

The new thing to do is to grab a level of Battle Dancer for added Persistomancy. Drop the last level of Abjurant Champion.
IIRC, the feats should add up like this:
F: Extend
F: Persist
Wiz(Fighter): Dodge
Wiz5 (Fighter): Power Attack
1: Combat Casting
3: Mobility
6: Endurance
9: Arcane Strike
12: Occular Spell (Use this to make Haste an acceptable Persist target)
15: Practiced Spellcaster
18: Travel/Knowledge/Trickery Devotion

The biggest advantage is Swiftblades undispellable haste and the accompanying buffs. When you add a 24 hour duration, it's pretty crazy. Normally Spelldancer is pretty mediocre due to the prereqs, but they match up with the prereqs of Swiftblade (Mobility and Dodge, and SB has tumble as a skill) and Abjurant Champion (Combat Casting). SWIFTBLADE SUPREMACY! :3

[Talionis]

Another good Gish is Duskblade 13 Chameleon 7. You suffer Duskblade for a lot of levels, but at 13 you have 13 BAB and can now copy your spell to each of your attacks for the round. Chameleon 7 allows you eventually both divine and arcane focus at the same time and you can cast any spell level 5 or lower. Look for the really powerful spells you can get at much lower levels such as Trapsmith Haste as a level one spell.

[gorfnab]

Bards make interesting gishes. Bard 8/ Paladin of Freedom 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3. 16BAB, 9th level spells at 18 CL, casts in armor, and can seriously buff the party if you optimize Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0).

[Sam K]

Some awesome stuff here, thanks everyone. Never really considered the sublime chord; can you advance sublime chord spell progression through another prestige class (so abjurant champ gives you sublime chord spell progression), or is it only base classes?

Damn, I'm gonna have to find myself a campaign and try some of this stuff out...

[Urpriest]

Some awesome stuff here, thanks everyone. Never really considered the sublime chord; can you advance sublime chord spell progression through another prestige class (so abjurant champ gives you sublime chord spell progression), or is it only base classes?



Abjurant Champion just says it progresses casting from classes. It doesn't specify base classes, so it applies to PrCs too.

[Andezzar]

Some awesome stuff here, thanks everyone. Never really considered the sublime chord; can you advance sublime chord spell progression through another prestige class (so abjurant champ gives you sublime chord spell progression), or is it only base classes?
This works because sublime chord is a spellcasting class in its own right. It does not advance another class's spellcasting.