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urkthegurk
2013-11-28, 10:41 PM
This fighter fix was inspired by a homebrew I saw on the boards a few months ago. I copied the text with the intention of working on it, however, the original thread is proving difficult to find. If anyone recognizes it, I'd like to include a link to it, give credit where it is due.

This is a bit of a work in progress, but I think the core elements are almost done. I'm still polishing, and I'll be honest that some of the abilities were just off the top of my head. BUT OTHERs were very considered, ok

Feedback would be much appreciated.


The Fighter


http://i.imgur.com/XaGIDl.jpg


Fighter
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Tactics

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Strike +1d6, Grit; Adventurer’s pouch, Bonus Feat|
1

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Dungeoncrasher 1, Bonus Feat|
2

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Strike +2d6, Mage Slayer, Bonus Feat|
2

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Shock Trooper, Adventurers Satchel|
2

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Strike +3d6, Extended Intimidation, Bonus Feat|
3

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Dungeoncrasher 2, Killer's Strike|
3

7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Strike +4d6, Combat Brute, Bonus Feat|
4

8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|Elusive Target, Adventurers Greatpack|
4

9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Strike +5d6, Swift Demoralization, Bonus Feat|
4

10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Pounce, Bonus Feat|
5

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Strike +6d6, Never Outnumbered, Bonus Feat|
5

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|Armor Specialization, Adventurer's Bag of Holding I|
6

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|Strike +7d6, Warrior's Strike|
6

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|Bonus Feat, Adventurer's Bag of Holding II|
6

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Strike +8d6, Strike Magic|
7

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Bonus Feat,Adventurer's Bag of Holding III|
7

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Strike +9d6, Strike Heart|
8

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|Bonus Feat, Adventurer's Bag of Holding IV|
8

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Strike +10d6, Strike Soul|
8

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Bonus Feat, Adventurer's Portable Hole|
9

[/table]

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills:
Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, listen, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, History, Local, Nobility and royalty, Nature), Move Silently, Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Tactics: A tactic is an empty slot for feats. At any point during the day the fighter can select 1 feat he meets the prerequisites for and for the rest of the day gain access to said feat. A fighter has a number of tactics as shown on the preceding table. Filling a tactic slot with a feat is a move action. A fighter can change all of the feats gained through his tactics by spending a full round action.

In addition, the fighter may train with others, and subsequently grant them the benefits of tactics, too. A fighter may train for an hour with another character, after which the fighter may assign them feats in the same way that they do for themselves. The fighter must have line of sight or verbal contact with the target for the feat to be assigned, but afterwards the ally retains their use as long as the characters are both on the same plane, unless the Fighter re-assigns their tactics in the usual way, described above. The training lasts for 24 hours, after which the fighter must re-train their ally.

Bonus Feats: At certain levels, a fighter can select bonus feats they meet the prerequisites for, and which is noted as being a fighter bonus feat.

Grit: A fighter is particularly resistant as a person, and the longer they keep up the struggle, the tougher they get. A fighter may re-roll any saving throw. They may use this ability a number of times per day equal to their Fighter level. They can use this ability multiple times on the same roll, up to a number of times equal to their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1 time), but they must use the last result rolled.

Strike: A fighter gets a strike pool, which may be used to provide a bonus to an attack roll, or to grant bonus damage dice. For each point spent from the pool, the fighter may take a +1 to any attack, or +1d6 bonus damage. This damage is of whatever damage type (or types) of the weapon that made the attack. A fighter can choose to activate the bonus to the attack roll after the roll has been made (but before the results are announced). Similarly, they may activate their bonus damage after a hit has been confirmed. A single attack may be modified by both attack and damage bonuses, as long as the fighter has the points to spend. They can spend 1+Int Mod (min 1) in this way on each of these abilities per strike.

Strike damage is not doubled on a critical. When this ability is first gained (at 1st level) the fighter can choose to either be a melee striker or a ranged striker. A melee striker applies the full bonus damage only to melee attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a ranged attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by A ranged striker applies the full bonus damage only to ranged attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a melee attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by half. Fighters apply the full damage of their strike, regardless of whether they normally apply it to melee or ranged weapons, when wielding thrown weapons.

A fighter's strike pool completely refreshes after an short rest.

At 6th Level, the Fighter gains the ability 'Killer Stike'. They may refresh their strike pool whenever they drop an opponent. An opponent is defined as any character who is actively engaged in combat with the fighter, and whom the fighter has dealt weapon damage to this combat. The fighter may count as having dropped the opponent if they are adjacent when they drop.

At 13th Level, the Fighter gains the ability 'Warrior Strike', and can refresh their strike pool anytime they successfully confirm a critical hit.

At 15th Level, the fighter gains the ability 'Strike Magic'. They may spend dice from their strike pool to reduce the DC of any spell by 1 per dice spent, as long as the spell also targets them. They can spend 1+int modifier dice in this way per use.

At 17th level, the fighter gains the ability 'Strike Heart'. They may spend dice from their strike pool to inflict 1 point of Constitution damage on a successful hit. They can spend 1+int modifier dice in this way per use.

At 17th level, the fighter gains the ability 'Strike Soul'. They may spend dice from their strike pool to inflict 1 negative level on a successful hit. They can spend 1+int modifier dice in this way per use.

ADVENTURER’S PACK
An adventurer’s pack contains a variety of tools, implements, containers, spare coins, and even alchemical items that are of use to adventurers in the field.

Table: Adventuring Gear
{table=head]
Item|
Cost|
Weight
Adventurer’s pack||
Pouch|25 gp|5 lbs.
Satchel|125 gp|25 lbs.
Greatpack|250 gp|50 lbs.
Bag of Holding I (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|1250 gp|250 lbs.
Bag of Holding II (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|2500 gp|500 lbs.
Bag of Holding III (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|5000 gp|1000 lbs.
Bag of Holding IV (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|7500 gp|1500 lbs.
Portable Hole (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Portable_Hole_%28Wondrous_Item%29)|No Limit| Special (282 cu. ft.)|
[/table]


Table: Adventurer’s Pack
{table=head]Desired Item|DC
Mundane Item|20
Alchemical Item|25
Masterwork Item|30
Adventurer’s Satchel|-5
Adventurer’s Greatpack|-10[/table]

An adventurer’s pack contains a variety of tools, implements, containers, spare coins, and even alchemical items that are of use to adventurers in the field.
The contents of an adventurer’s pack are not specified when the pack is purchased; rather, you load the pack with a variety of goods suited to your expected travels. Later, you may attempt to withdraw any item of common adventuring gear from the pack, with success determined by a Knowledge (dungeoneering) check made to determine how well you chose the contents of the adventurer’s pack. Essentially, the pack grants you the unlimited ability to use Knowledge (dungeoneering) to Speak Authoritatively regarding its contents. When you purchase or find an adventurer’s pack, note the current gp value and weight of your pack on your character sheet, as later on you’ll be deducting the value of goods removed from the pack.

What you can pack
You may attempt to withdraw non-magical trade goods, equipment, tools, alchemical items, and any other items that your DM agrees could reasonably fit in the adventurer’s pack. You may not attempt to withdraw an item with a gp value or weight greater than the current gp value and weight of the pack, nor may you attempt to withdraw weapons, ammunition, armor, shields, spell foci, expensive spell components, poison, or any magical items. For examples of the equipment you might withdraw from an adventurer’s pack, consult Table: 7—8: Goods and Services in the Player’s Handbook, tables 4—2 through 4—6 in Complete Adventurer, Table 5—3: Alchemical Items in Complete Scoundrel, and other resources as approved by your DM.

How to withdraw an item from the pack
When you need something from the pack, make a Knowledge (dungeoneering) check as a move action to search the adventurer’s pack, with a DC determined by the type of item you are attempting to withdraw (see Table: Adventurer’s Pack, below). If you succeed, you remembered to pack the item in question and have withdrawn it from the pack. If you fail, you either didn’t think to pack that item, or you haven’t found it yet. You may not Take 10 when attempting to withdraw an item from an adventurer’s pack, as its contents represent your guesswork as to what equipment you might need. However, you may Take 20 (this takes about 2 minutes as you rummage around in the bottom of the pack searching for the item).

At the DM’s discretion, you may use a different skill when withdrawing items from the pack, so long as the skill is appropriate to the desired item. For example, you might roll Climb to draw forth a mountaineering kit or Perform (harp) to withdraw a set of harp strings.

If you are withdrawing something from an adventurer's pack that you yourself did not pack, use the Knowledge (dungeoneering) modifier of the person who originally packed it, rather than your own. You may not use alternate skills to draw forth items from a pack that you didn't pack yourself.

Emptying and filling the pack
An adventurer’s pack is not bottomless, and will eventually become depleted through use. Every time you successfully withdraw an item from the pack, reduce the pack’s gp value and weight by the gp value and weight of the withdrawn item. Once the gp value of the adventurer’s pack reaches its base value or its weight reaches the pack’s base weight, the pack is depleted and can no longer be used to withdraw items. However, a depleted pack is not empty. If the gp value is reduced to its base value, then pack contains a variety of useless junk and broken items sufficient to fill out the remaining weight within the container. If the weight is reduced to the pack’s base weight, then the pack contains a handful of coins, gems, or other valuable objects of negligible weight with value sufficient to round out the remaining gp value of the pack’s contents.

If you have access to appropriate shops or supplies (as determined by the DM), you can “recharge” a fully or partially depleted pack by spending gp equal to the difference between the pack’s initial value and its current value and repacking the pack with additional gear. “Recharging” a partially depleted pack also restores its current weight back to its initial weight.

Adventurer’s packs are available in different sizes. A belt pouch has an initial value of 26gp and initial weight of 5 ½ pounds. Its base value is 1gp and its base weight is ½ pound. A satchel has an initial value of 126gp and an initial weight of 26 pounds. Its base value is 1gp and its base weight is 1 pound. A greatpack has an initial value of 252gp and an initial weight of 52 pounds. Its base value is 2gp and its base weight is 2 pounds.

For more information on my source for the 'State Authoritively' rules, see here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11090621)

Shock Trooper: enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Directed Bull Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt as part of a charge. For every square you push your foe back, you may also push that foe one square to the left or right.
Domino Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt that forces a foe into the same square as another foe. You may make a free trip attempt against both foes at the same time, and neither foe gets a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.
Heedless Charge: To use this maneuver, you must charge and make the attack at the end of the charge using your Power Attack feat. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. In addition to normal charge modifiers (which give you a -2 penalty to AC and a +2 bonus on the attack roll), you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your Armor Class instead, up to a maximum equal to your base attack bonus.

Combat Brute: enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Advancing Blows: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt against a foe. During the next round, all your attacks against that foe gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for each square your bull rush moved that foe. For example, if you pushed an orc back 10 (2 squares) feet with a bull rush, you would gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against that orc on the following round.
Sundering Cleave: To use this maneuver, you must destroy a foe's weapon or shield with a successful sunder attempt (see page 158 of the Player's Handbook). If you do so, you gain an immediate additional melee attack against the foe. The additional attack is with the same weapon and at the same attack bonus as the attack that destroyed the weapon or shield.
Momentum Swing: To use this maneuver, you must charge a foe in the first round, and you must make an attack using your Power Attack feat in the second round. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. Your attacks during the second round gain a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x1-1/2, or x3 if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.


Mage Slayer: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saving throws. Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat.

Dungeoncrasher: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. At 2nd level, you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.
In addition, you gain a special benefi t when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).
At 6th level, the bonuses when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Elusive Target: Enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Negate Power Attack: To use this maneuver, you must designate a specific foe to be affected by your Dodge feat. If that foe uses the Power Attack feat against you, the foe gains no bonus on the damage roll but still takes the corresponding penalty on the attack roll.
Diverting Defense: To use this maneuver, you must be flanked and the attacker must be affected by your Dodge feat. If the first attack of the round from the designated attacker misses you, it may strike another flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flatfooted. You may choose the new target, however a creature cannot be caused to attack itself.
Cause Overreach: To use this maneuver, you must provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe by moving out of a threatened square. If the foe misses you, you can make a free trip attempt against this foe, and the foe does not get a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.

Pierce Magical Concealment: Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, ghostform (see page 109), and spells when used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fill a corridor with illusory fire and smoke). In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments. Your ability to ignore the miss chance granted by magical concealment doesn't grant you any ability to ignore nonmagical concealment (so you would still have a 20% miss chance against an invisible creature hiding in fog, for example).

Never Outnumbered: When you use Intimidate to demoralize and opponent (PHB 76), you can affect all enemies within 20 feet that can see you.

Armor Specialization: Choose one type of armor with which you are proficient. When wearing masterwork armor (including magic armor) of that type, you gain damage reduction 2/-. Any time you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, you lose the benefit of this feat, because you cannot properly deflect the blows of the enemy.

Extended Intimidation A target successfully intimidated by a 5th-level Fighter suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when the Fighter leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after their departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward the Fighter shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever the Fighter returns to someone he has previously intimidated, they gain a +4 bonus on their Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Swift Demoralization: A 9th-level Fighter can use the demoralize opponent aspect
of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

urkthegurk
2013-12-11, 07:45 PM
I could really use some feedback! PEACH?

Changelog:

Dec 11th
Changed name of 'mettle' ability to 'grit'. Limited uses of Grit on a single roll, based on Intelligence.
Added 'Spot' 'Listen' and 'Search' to skill list.

Dec12th

Changed warriors strike to trigger on critical hit rather than on a successful attack

anacalgion
2013-12-11, 11:36 PM
Alrighty, here I am. Let the PEACHing commence. In bold.




The Fighter


http://i.imgur.com/XaGIDl.jpg

I like that you used the picture for the Pathfinder Barbarian. It amuses me.


Fighter
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Tactics

1st|+1|+2|+2|+2|Strike +1d6, Mettle; Adventurer’s pouch, Bonus Feat|
1

2nd|+2|+3|+3|+3|Dungeoncrasher 1, Bonus Feat|
2

3rd|+3|+3|+3|+3|Strike +2d6, Mage Slayer, Bonus Feat|
2

4th|+4|+4|+4|+4|Shock Trooper, Adventurers Satchel|
2

5th|+5|+4|+4|+4|Strike +3d6, Extended Intimidation, Bonus Feat|
3

6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Dungeoncrasher 2, Killer's Strike|
3

7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Strike +4d6, Combat Brute, Bonus Feat|
4

8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|Elusive Target, Adventurers Greatpack|
4

9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Strike +5d6, Swift Demoralization, Bonus Feat|
4

10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Pounce, Bonus Feat|
5

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|Strike +6d6, Never Outnumbered, Bonus Feat|
5

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|Armor Specialization, Adventurer's Bag of Holding I|
6

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|Strike +7d6, Warrior's Strike|
6

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|Bonus Feat, Adventurer's Bag of Holding II|
6

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Strike +8d6, Strike Magic|
7

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Bonus Feat,Adventurer's Bag of Holding III|
7

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|Strike +9d6, Strike Heart|
8

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|Bonus Feat, Adventurer's Bag of Holding IV|
8

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Strike +10d6, Strike Soul|
8

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|Bonus Feat, Adventurer's Portable Hole|
9

[/table]

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

Maybe consider d12? Its job is to fight things. Having hit points generally helps.

Class Skills:
Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, History, Local, Nobility and royalty, Nature), Move Silently, Ride, Survival, Swim, Tumble.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Spot? Listen? Maybe Search? The first two for sure. If you're going to guard the party, you should be able to know when someone's sneaking up on you.

Tactics: A tactic is an empty slot for feats. At any point during the day the fighter can select 1 feat he meets the prerequisites for and for the rest of the day gain access to said feat. A fighter has a number of tactics as shown on the preceding table. Filling a tactic slot with a feat is a move action. A fighter can change all of the feats gained through his tactics by spending a full round action.

In addition, the fighter may train with others, and subsequently grant them the benefits of tactics, too. A fighter may train for an hour with another character, after which the fighter may assign them feats in the same way that they do for themselves. The fighter must have line of sight or verbal contact with the target for the feat to be assigned, but afterwards the ally retains their use as long as the characters are both on the same plane, unless the Fighter re-assigns their tactics in the usual way, described above. The training lasts for 24 hours, after which the fighter must re-train their ally.

Love these kinds of abilities. Cool.

Bonus Feats: At certain levels, a fighter can select bonus feats they meet the prerequisites for, and which is noted as being a fighter bonus feat.

Hang on. Bonus feats, and tactics? That's like 18 feats by level 20, right? Too much. It's not overpowered, its just too much. With the ability to swap around 9 feats as a full round action, you don't need 9 others that you can't. Maybe expand the tactics list, but there's no need for both.

Mettle: A fighter is particularly resistant as a person, and the longer they keep up the struggle, the tougher they get. A fighter may re-roll any saving throw a number of times per day equal to their Fighter level. They can use this ability multiple times on the same roll, but they must use the last result rolled.

Huh. So it's not the usual mettle. Still, not bad. Fighter level/day is a bit much though. That's a lot of rerolls. Maybe make it Con modifier/day instead? That way it's useful when a single arrow trap can really screw you over, and it scales, just less so.

Strike: A fighter gets a strike pool, which may be used to provide a bonus to an attack roll, or to grant bonus damage dice. For each point spent from the pool, the fighter may take a +1 to any attack, or +1d6 bonus damage. This damage is of whatever damage type (or types) of the weapon that made the attack. A fighter can choose to activate the bonus to the attack roll after the roll has been made (but before the results are announced). Similarly, they may activate their bonus damage after a hit has been confirmed. A single attack may be modified by both attack and damage bonuses, as long as the fighter has the points to spend. They can spend 1+Int Mod (min 1) in this way on each of these abilities per strike.

Strike damage is not doubled on a critical. When this ability is first gained (at 1st level) the fighter can choose to either be a melee striker or a ranged striker. A melee striker applies the full bonus damage only to melee attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a ranged attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by A ranged striker applies the full bonus damage only to ranged attacks he makes, and if he uses a strike on a melee attack, the additional damage dealt from the strike is reduced by half. Fighters apply the full damage of their strike, regardless of whether they normally apply it to melee or ranged weapons, when wielding thrown weapons.

A fighter's strike pool completely refreshes after an short rest.

At 6th Level, the Fighter gains the ability 'Killer Stike'. They may refresh their strike pool whenever they drop an opponent. An opponent is defined as any character who is actively engaged in combat with the fighter, and whom the fighter has dealt weapon damage to this combat. The fighter may count as having dropped the opponent if they are adjacent when they drop.

At 13th Level, the Fighter gains the ability 'Warrior Strike', and can refresh their strike pool anytime they successfully hit an opponent.

At 15th Level, the fighter gains the ability 'Strike Magic'. They may spend dice from their strike pool to reduce the DC of any spell by 1 per dice spent, as long as the spell also targets them. They can spend 1+int modifier dice in this way per use.

At 17th level, the fighter gains the ability 'Strike Heart'. They may spend dice from their strike pool to inflict 1 point of Constitution damage on a successful hit. They can spend 1+int modifier dice in this way per use.

At 17th level, the fighter gains the ability 'Strike Soul'. They may spend dice from their strike pool to inflict 1 negative level on a successful hit. They can spend 1+int modifier dice in this way per use.


Interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Refreshing the entire pool on a hit is probably too strong, especially because it means that as soon as you hit 17th level, you essentially do 3+ negative levels per hit. It's interesting, I'll give you that. Also, you sorta force the fighter into using int. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I've seen a lot of fixes that allow you to choose which mental attribute you use, and that feels like something that captures the core of all kinds of fighters, rather than just the smart ones. Food for thought.

ADVENTURER’S PACK[/B]
An adventurer’s pack contains a variety of tools, implements, containers, spare coins, and even alchemical items that are of use to adventurers in the field.

Table: Adventuring Gear
{table=head]
Item|
Cost|
Weight
Adventurer’s pack||
Pouch|25 gp|5 lbs.
Satchel|125 gp|25 lbs.
Greatpack|250 gp|50 lbs.
Bag of Holding I (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|1250 gp|250 lbs.
Bag of Holding II (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|2500 gp|500 lbs.
Bag of Holding III (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|5000 gp|1000 lbs.
Bag of Holding IV (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Bag_of_Holding)|7500 gp|1500 lbs.
Portable Hole (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Portable_Hole_%28Wondrous_Item%29)|No Limit| Special (282 cu. ft.)|
[/table]


Table: Adventurer’s Pack
{table=head]Desired Item|DC
Mundane Item|20
Alchemical Item|25
Masterwork Item|30
Adventurer’s Satchel|-5
Adventurer’s Greatpack|-10[/table]

An adventurer’s pack contains a variety of tools, implements, containers, spare coins, and even alchemical items that are of use to adventurers in the field.
The contents of an adventurer’s pack are not specified when the pack is purchased; rather, you load the pack with a variety of goods suited to your expected travels. Later, you may attempt to withdraw any item of common adventuring gear from the pack, with success determined by a Knowledge (dungeoneering) check made to determine how well you chose the contents of the adventurer’s pack. Essentially, the pack grants you the unlimited ability to use Knowledge (dungeoneering) to Speak Authoritatively regarding its contents. When you purchase or find an adventurer’s pack, note the current gp value and weight of your pack on your character sheet, as later on you’ll be deducting the value of goods removed from the pack.

What you can pack
You may attempt to withdraw non-magical trade goods, equipment, tools, alchemical items, and any other items that your DM agrees could reasonably fit in the adventurer’s pack. You may not attempt to withdraw an item with a gp value or weight greater than the current gp value and weight of the pack, nor may you attempt to withdraw weapons, ammunition, armor, shields, spell foci, expensive spell components, poison, or any magical items. For examples of the equipment you might withdraw from an adventurer’s pack, consult Table: 7—8: Goods and Services in the Player’s Handbook, tables 4—2 through 4—6 in Complete Adventurer, Table 5—3: Alchemical Items in Complete Scoundrel, and other resources as approved by your DM.

How to withdraw an item from the pack
When you need something from the pack, make a Knowledge (dungeoneering) check as a move action to search the adventurer’s pack, with a DC determined by the type of item you are attempting to withdraw (see Table: Adventurer’s Pack, below). If you succeed, you remembered to pack the item in question and have withdrawn it from the pack. If you fail, you either didn’t think to pack that item, or you haven’t found it yet. You may not Take 10 when attempting to withdraw an item from an adventurer’s pack, as its contents represent your guesswork as to what equipment you might need. However, you may Take 20 (this takes about 2 minutes as you rummage around in the bottom of the pack searching for the item).

At the DM’s discretion, you may use a different skill when withdrawing items from the pack, so long as the skill is appropriate to the desired item. For example, you might roll Climb to draw forth a mountaineering kit or Perform (harp) to withdraw a set of harp strings.

If you are withdrawing something from an adventurer's pack that you yourself did not pack, use the Knowledge (dungeoneering) modifier of the person who originally packed it, rather than your own. You may not use alternate skills to draw forth items from a pack that you didn't pack yourself.

Emptying and filling the pack
An adventurer’s pack is not bottomless, and will eventually become depleted through use. Every time you successfully withdraw an item from the pack, reduce the pack’s gp value and weight by the gp value and weight of the withdrawn item. Once the gp value of the adventurer’s pack reaches its base value or its weight reaches the pack’s base weight, the pack is depleted and can no longer be used to withdraw items. However, a depleted pack is not empty. If the gp value is reduced to its base value, then pack contains a variety of useless junk and broken items sufficient to fill out the remaining weight within the container. If the weight is reduced to the pack’s base weight, then the pack contains a handful of coins, gems, or other valuable objects of negligible weight with value sufficient to round out the remaining gp value of the pack’s contents.

If you have access to appropriate shops or supplies (as determined by the DM), you can “recharge” a fully or partially depleted pack by spending gp equal to the difference between the pack’s initial value and its current value and repacking the pack with additional gear. “Recharging” a partially depleted pack also restores its current weight back to its initial weight.

Adventurer’s packs are available in different sizes. A belt pouch has an initial value of 26gp and initial weight of 5 ½ pounds. Its base value is 1gp and its base weight is ½ pound. A satchel has an initial value of 126gp and an initial weight of 26 pounds. Its base value is 1gp and its base weight is 1 pound. A greatpack has an initial value of 252gp and an initial weight of 52 pounds. Its base value is 2gp and its base weight is 2 pounds.

For more information on my source for the 'State Authoritively' rules, see here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11090621)

Oh. Huh. Now this is something new. It's kinda weird the first time you see it, but it's growing on me. Cool. The jury is out on whether or not it fits, but its a neat idea.

Shock Trooper: enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Directed Bull Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt as part of a charge. For every square you push your foe back, you may also push that foe one square to the left or right.
Domino Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt that forces a foe into the same square as another foe. You may make a free trip attempt against both foes at the same time, and neither foe gets a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.
Heedless Charge: To use this maneuver, you must charge and make the attack at the end of the charge using your Power Attack feat. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. In addition to normal charge modifiers (which give you a -2 penalty to AC and a +2 bonus on the attack roll), you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your Armor Class instead, up to a maximum equal to your base attack bonus.

Combat Brute: enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Advancing Blows: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt against a foe. During the next round, all your attacks against that foe gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for each square your bull rush moved that foe. For example, if you pushed an orc back 10 (2 squares) feet with a bull rush, you would gain a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls against that orc on the following round.
Sundering Cleave: To use this maneuver, you must destroy a foe's weapon or shield with a successful sunder attempt (see page 158 of the Player's Handbook). If you do so, you gain an immediate additional melee attack against the foe. The additional attack is with the same weapon and at the same attack bonus as the attack that destroyed the weapon or shield.
Momentum Swing: To use this maneuver, you must charge a foe in the first round, and you must make an attack using your Power Attack feat in the second round. The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. Your attacks during the second round gain a bonus equal to your attack roll penalty x1-1/2, or x3 if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands. For instance, if you choose to take a -6 penalty on your attack roll, you can deal an extra 9 points of damage, or an extra 18 points if you're using a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands.

You have 18 feats. I don't think you need 2 more, especially when these were ones any fighter (who can use them) is probably going to take.


Mage Slayer: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saving throws. Spellcasters you threaten may not cast defensively (they automatically fail their Concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat.

Also a feat that could just be taken with one of the 18 feats you give them.

Dungeoncrasher: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. At 2nd level, you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.
In addition, you gain a special benefi t when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).
At 6th level, the bonuses when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Sure.

Elusive Target: Enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Negate Power Attack: To use this maneuver, you must designate a specific foe to be affected by your Dodge feat. If that foe uses the Power Attack feat against you, the foe gains no bonus on the damage roll but still takes the corresponding penalty on the attack roll.
Diverting Defense: To use this maneuver, you must be flanked and the attacker must be affected by your Dodge feat. If the first attack of the round from the designated attacker misses you, it may strike another flanking foe instead; the attacking creature makes an attack roll normally, and its ally is considered flatfooted. You may choose the new target, however a creature cannot be caused to attack itself.
Cause Overreach: To use this maneuver, you must provoke an attack of opportunity from a foe by moving out of a threatened square. If the foe misses you, you can make a free trip attempt against this foe, and the foe does not get a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.

Pierce Magical Concealment: Your fierce contempt for magic allows you to disregard the miss chance granted by spells or spell-like abilities such as darkness, blur, invisibility, obscuring mist, ghostform (see page 109), and spells when used to create concealment effects (such as a wizard using permanent image to fill a corridor with illusory fire and smoke). In addition, when facing a creature protected by mirror image, you can immediately pick out the real creature from its figments. Your ability to ignore the miss chance granted by magical concealment doesn't grant you any ability to ignore nonmagical concealment (so you would still have a 20% miss chance against an invisible creature hiding in fog, for example).

Never Outnumbered: When you use Intimidate to demoralize and opponent (PHB 76), you can affect all enemies within 20 feet that can see you.

Armor Specialization: Choose one type of armor with which you are proficient. When wearing masterwork armor (including magic armor) of that type, you gain damage reduction 2/-. Any time you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, you lose the benefit of this feat, because you cannot properly deflect the blows of the enemy.

You know by now what I think of giving them more feats.


Extended Intimidation A target successfully intimidated by a 5th-level Fighter suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when the Fighter leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after their departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward the Fighter shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever the Fighter returns to someone he has previously intimidated, they gain a +4 bonus on their Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Eh. Good if you want to use fear, not so much if you don't.

Swift Demoralization: A 9th-level Fighter can use the demoralize opponent aspect
of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Sure? I guess. See, as you have it written, the fighter needs basically every physical attribute (give or take), Int for strikes, and Cha for intimidation. You've made a very MAD fighter, and it's something to watch out for.

That's basically it. Looks good though. I'm interested in seeing how you continue this.

Just to Browse
2013-12-12, 01:15 AM
Floating bonus feats are cool, and allowing them to completely change as a full-round action makes the fighter very focused on dumpster-diving. I wouldn't like them to switch that fast (or give him access to all fighter bonus feats), but this is fine.

Bonus feats plus floating feats is probably too much.

Strike is strange--I don't know if the bonus damage is per-point or a cap on total damage the fighter is allowed to output. The points scale really weirdly too--with the refresh mechanics giving unprecedented power spikes as he levels. You should go with something more predictable, rather than giving new mechanics for refreshing. Also, define "short rest" because this is 3rd edition and not 4th or Legend.

EDIT: Yikes, you can pack a lot of negative levels into a single attack, every attack. Don't do that.

Mage Slayer should be spelled out as a feat, or you should remove the part where it calls itself a feat. I recommend the former. In addition, this bonus scales in the table but not the text.

Mettle is borked. It gives the fighter in incredible tanky ability that he can spam on effects and simultaneously puts him right into the 15-minute workday. Make this refreshable, not per-day, and put a per-effect cap on it. No doing it multiple times on the same roll.

Adventurer's Pack is uncomfortably meta (you can rummage longer to improve your chances of being smart in the past... what?), related to a weird skill (you get to make dungeoneering checks when packing things for the plane of fire or the far realms), and super DM-dependent. It's also not something I see as a "fighter" class feature, as it's very generic. And it doesn't scale well (Bag of Holding I at level 12? Wee). I don't know what to do with this, but I would replace it in lieu of something else.

The rest of this class appears to be a set of bonus feats tacked on with increasing levels. They do not make the fighter on-pair. Pierce Magical Concealment is not exciting, neither is an AoE demoralize at level 11.

Overall, you seem to be hitting the same problem a lot of people are up against. First, your fighter is very feat-bloatedd--lots and lots of options people don't want to deal with and they don't compensate for weak class features at high levels.
Second, your fighter's method of bonus damage is totally off the charts (even +10d6 per attack is too much if it can go off every round without fail).
Lastly, the fighter is not doing anything tactical. While you can dumpster dive for special items in the quantum backpack, you're really still just running towards a dude and hitting them with your sword because that's a more effective strategy. And while a wizard or sorcerer has fun by thinking up play-strategies or deciding where to drop BFC, the fighter is just moving -> attacking every round.

urkthegurk
2013-12-12, 03:51 AM
Yay! People! Thanks for posting.

I admit I've been watching a lot of adventure time lately, and this fix MAY have been influenced (at least subconsciously) by that. Basically, like Finn, what this Fighter is doing is moving and attacking. That's... that's all I wanted it to do. I just wanted it to feel more dynamic, and have more methods of doing that. I'm not trying to make the fighter the wizard, they have different design goals.

As for MAD, I am conscious of this. In my opinion, they really only need two scores: Strength and Intelligence. Charisma is good if you're going a intimidate-based build, Dex is needed instead of strength if you want to be an archer, and any character needs good Con. But those are all optional. You might say that there shouldn't be special abilities tied to tertiary ability scores. You're probably right, but I did want a way to open up those builds. I'm considering making them ACF's, as some of them originally were, or some such tweak. But is it needed?



Interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Refreshing the entire pool on a hit is probably too strong, especially because it means that as soon as you hit 17th level, you essentially do 3+ negative levels per hit. It's interesting, I'll give you that. Also, you sorta force the fighter into using int. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I've seen a lot of fixes that allow you to choose which mental attribute you use, and that feels like something that captures the core of all kinds of fighters, rather than just the smart ones. Food for thought..

I do agree about the negative levels thing but... how unbalanced IS it? They are 17th level. Maybe limiting it to one negative level per hit? What would be a better refresh mechanic? Maybe just leaving it at 'drops an opponent.'

Choosing which mental attribute... I like it, but it just feels like a cop-out. What other class has that kind of option? I mean, it isn't written in stone that you can't, but I do want the class to mesh with 3.5 tradition. Maybe giving them the ability to use Bluff and Intimidate off their Str and Int bonuses respectively, or sumsuch.



Spot? Listen? Maybe Search? The first two for sure. If you're going to guard the party, you should be able to know when someone's sneaking up on you.

Good point. Also, changed 'Mettle' to 'Grit'



Bonus feats plus floating feats is probably too much.


yeah, probably...

my logic for including the specific bonus feats, like Shock Trooper, is that, because they are basically needed for the class to function, they should just be built in to the design. Any fighter should have them. I sorta agree that the 'bonus feats' on top of that are... a little much. Too much to keep track of, at least.



Strike is strange--I don't know if the bonus damage is per-point or a cap on total damage the fighter is allowed to output. The points scale really weirdly too--with the refresh mechanics giving unprecedented power spikes as he levels. You should go with something more predictable, rather than giving new mechanics for refreshing. Also, define "short rest" because this is 3rd edition and not 4th or Legend.

short rest, right. Mixing my editions.

Hm. Is there another way to give out new mechanics... more predictably? Its based off stuff that the fighter is doing anyway. I wouldn't want to make it x/times per day or something like that.




EDIT: Yikes, you can pack a lot of negative levels into a single attack, every attack. Don't do that.

I copy that. I'll figure some way to scale it down, have it posted by tomorrow.



Mettle is borked. It gives the fighter in incredible tanky ability that he can spam on effects and simultaneously puts him right into the 15-minute workday. Make this refreshable, not per-day, and put a per-effect cap on it. No doing it multiple times on the same roll.

Maybe 1+int per effect? I think multiple times is ok, maybe some sort of limit is needed.



Adventurer's Pack is uncomfortably meta (you can rummage longer to improve your chances of being smart in the past... what?), related to a weird skill (you get to make dungeoneering checks when packing things for the plane of fire or the far realms), and super DM-dependent. It's also not something I see as a "fighter" class feature, as it's very generic. And it doesn't scale well (Bag of Holding I at level 12? Wee). I don't know what to do with this, but I would replace it in lieu of something else.

Well, its sorta supposed to be meta. I get that its not everyone's style, I guess. I think spell slots are pretty meta, myself.

What I was going for here was the idea that the fighter is always prepared. Mundane-powered characters need true grit to be able to survive. They need to have a Plan. So the idea is, the character has thought about this MORE than the player, and the character has packed what they need to survive, which the player helps determine.

There's no reason a DM couldn't say 'roll knowledge the planes' for extraplanar adventures, but it would have to be for gear specifically for dealing with that. Dungeoneering still covers buying climbing spikes, whether you're on the plane of earth or underground. The rules I'm referencing cover that, IIRC, although not this specific example.

The bag of holding isn't just a bag of holding, you can certainly get those sooner. Its an 'Adventurers Bag of Holding.' It just lets you use your 'State Authoritively' stuff with a higher volume of stuff, and provides the needed item if you don't have it.



The rest of this class appears to be a set of bonus feats tacked on with increasing levels. They do not make the fighter on-pair. Pierce Magical Concealment is not exciting, neither is an AoE demoralize at level 11.[/quotes]

Not exciting, but necessary. 'Never Outnumbered' is based on the feat, which you can't get before 11th level in any case.

[QUOTE=Just to Browse;16601024]
Overall, you seem to be hitting the same problem a lot of people are up against. First, your fighter is very feat-bloatedd--lots and lots of options people don't want to deal with and they don't compensate for weak class features at high levels.
Second, your fighter's method of bonus damage is totally off the charts (even +10d6 per attack is too much if it can go off every round without fail).
Lastly, the fighter is not doing anything tactical. While you can dumpster dive for special items in the quantum backpack, you're really still just running towards a dude and hitting them with your sword because that's a more effective strategy. And while a wizard or sorcerer has fun by thinking up play-strategies or deciding where to drop BFC, the fighter is just moving -> attacking every round.

1. true. Doesn't need some of those bonus feats
2. You may be correct, but I object. Doesn't any spellcaster have access to spells that deal more damage, to more targets, at a great range? And yet the evoker isn't the most powerful wizard build. It can't really go off 'without fail'-- they need to hit, which means they need to be in range, beat the AC, other defenses, etc. So against an unprepared enemy, I say let 'em go to town. But yeah, I'm totally down with putting 'em back 'on the charts', we just have to decide which charts, I guess. Some of the charts have 25d6 damage.
3. hitting people with your sword is. the. BEST. strategy.

D-naras
2013-12-12, 11:09 AM
I like this fix. It has character if nothing else. It makes the Fighter good at fighting and handy in adventuring. Especially the Adventurer's Pack. It's a great ability that you can give to pretty much any mundane class and help them participate in almost any situation. You can even make feats that allow you to find potions and other simple one-use magical items.

I also think that your Strike pool shouldn't feel on a successful attack. Maybe make it refresh on a critical threat. Otherwise it make's Killer Strike totally obsolete, and that is a shame since it's a pretty cool ability. Maybe allow the Fighter to spend Strike points to gain Temporary Hitpoints as well? Though that might be too much in combination with Grit.

All things said, I like your class. Nice job! :smallsmile:

urkthegurk
2013-12-12, 12:18 PM
Thanks!

Yeah, the 'pack is a school of ability that works for mundanes, but I think it suits the Fighter best. A Ranger knows what they're gonna need in the wilderness, a Barbarian feels they don't need anything much. And so on. Rogues will likely be hoarding enough items they'll have something useful for whatever situation, but it would be sweet to make a cash-based Rogue's 'Hoard' ability, less focused on items, more on money.

Fighter's scoff at the 'genius' wizard, and all the other's lack of preparedness. They know that the only way to survive a dungeon is to be totally, ridiculously prepared. Which is why one might be literally carrying 500 ft of rope.

As for the Strike ability, I like the crit-recharge idea, if for no other reason than it gives an incentive to keen yer weapons. Makes more sense than every hit.

The feedback is much appreciated, everyone!

Just to Browse
2013-12-12, 01:53 PM
my logic for including the specific bonus feats, like Shock Trooper, is that, because they are basically needed for the class to function, they should just be built in to the design. Any fighter should have them. I sorta agree that the 'bonus feats' on top of that are... a little much. Too much to keep track of, at least.I absolutely agree that stuff like Shock Trooper should just be given to the fighter. No matter how you re-do the extra bonus feats, keep good stuff like shock trooper around. Very smart move.


short rest, right. Mixing my editions.

Hm. Is there another way to give out new mechanics... more predictably? Its based off stuff that the fighter is doing anyway. I wouldn't want to make it x/times per day or something like that.Well, it would be good to write the mechanic around how you'd like to see fights going. I would personally let the fighter recharge it as a 1-round action (so all his actions, plus wait till the start of next turn) so that he basically always has it out of fights, and if he needs to he can go every other round charging/smacking.


Maybe 1+int per effect? I think multiple times is ok, maybe some sort of limit is needed.Well, multiple times means the fighter will always want to re-roll until he gets something like a 15, so (especially with 5-20 rerolls) you're basically giving him immunity to anything with a save at the beginning of the day.

To prevent the ability from falling off over the course of the day, and to discourage spamming his re-rolls, I'd recommend either putting a hard cap (like 1/minute), granting debilitating conditions for too many re-rolls (fatigue, exhaustion, staggered, slowed), and/or turning it into a straight up save boost. You could also make it an active ability (e.g. "As a swift action, the fighter can make himself durable for 1 round. You may re-roll 1 save during this time.")


Well, its sorta supposed to be meta. I get that its not everyone's style, I guess. I think spell slots are pretty meta, myself.It's not so much meta as in "weird and handwavey", but meta as in you spend 2 minutes digging now and that affects your capability to plan as of this morning. I can't even plug my ears and call it magic, because it's explicitly stated as the fighter's nonmagical ability to pack things.

It's also weird that a smarter fighter packs rarer objects. That seems like it should be a scavenging thing, or at least tied to money somehow. Of course it's decently functional so if you don't want to change the mechanic then I'm still OK with the class.


There's no reason a DM couldn't say 'roll knowledge the planes' for extraplanar adventures, but it would have to be for gear specifically for dealing with that. Dungeoneering still covers buying climbing spikes, whether you're on the plane of earth or underground. The rules I'm referencing cover that, IIRC, although not this specific example.I missed that bit in the rules. Good by me.


The bag of holding isn't just a bag of holding, you can certainly get those sooner. Its an 'Adventurers Bag of Holding.' It just lets you use your 'State Authoritively' stuff with a higher volume of stuff, and provides the needed item if you don't have it. Right, but that's not big enough for 11th level. At level 11, I need ballistaes for sieges.


Not exciting, but necessary. 'Never Outnumbered' is based on the feat, which you can't get before 11th level in any case.Never Outnumbered is available at a high level because WotC is bad at feat balance. It's level-appropriate for people around 3-5. It also directly clashes with the fighter's schtick in an unprecedented way (as in, you haven't cared about charisma until level 11. That's strange), so most players are likely to ignore it.


2. You may be correct, but I object. Doesn't any spellcaster have access to spells that deal more damage, to more targets, at a great range? And yet the evoker isn't the most powerful wizard build. It can't really go off 'without fail'-- they need to hit, which means they need to be in range, beat the AC, other defenses, etc. So against an unprepared enemy, I say let 'em go to town. But yeah, I'm totally down with putting 'em back 'on the charts', we just have to decide which charts, I guess. Some of the charts have 25d6 damage.You're severely overestimating casters and/or underestimating the potential of this class. First, hitting is super easy because AC scales atrociously and to-hit scales fantastically. Second, this is per-attack and not per-standard-action, meaning the fighter can take a 1-level dip, pick up a feat chain, or just get haste and pounce fools for 2+ attacks dealing something in the realm of 3d6 damage apiece. Here (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Barbarian,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)) is an example of a class that gets the same per-attack damage progression and similar god-mode save resilience, but it doesn't get the toolbox of dumpser-divey feats that this fighter will be able to pull out and change up every fight.


3. hitting people with your sword is. the. BEST. strategy.You can keep the class this way, because simplicity is a legitimate design philosophy, but IMO it's better to have a class that doesn't make people want to put down their character sheet and play Smash Bros.

urkthegurk
2013-12-12, 05:35 PM
I absolutely agree that stuff like Shock Trooper should just be given to the fighter. No matter how you re-do the extra bonus feats, keep good stuff like shock trooper around. Very smart move.

;)

Yeah, because I wouldnt' want you to have to use Tactics to get these, because then you'll never use tactics on anything else, and whats the point of the ability then?



Well, it would be good to write the mechanic around how you'd like to see fights going. I would personally let the fighter recharge it as a 1-round action (so all his actions, plus wait till the start of next turn) so that he basically always has it out of fights, and if he needs to he can go every other round charging/smacking.


They've already got the full-round to refresh their Tactics. Making a full-round ability for strikes would work as well. I just... I like the feel of it as a more dynamic ability, like you need to use it to get more of it (and risk using it up, and running on fumes for awhile).

Maybe 3 rounds to focus, like an assasin's death attack, but you know, not sucky. Or... a full round, and a concentration check to meditate. But that could be a feat.



Well, multiple times means the fighter will always want to re-roll until he gets something like a 15, so (especially with 5-20 rerolls) you're basically giving him immunity to anything with a save at the beginning of the day.

To prevent the ability from falling off over the course of the day, and to discourage spamming his re-rolls, I'd recommend either putting a hard cap (like 1/minute), granting debilitating conditions for too many re-rolls (fatigue, exhaustion, staggered, slowed), and/or turning it into a straight up save boost. You could also make it an active ability (e.g. "As a swift action, the fighter can make himself durable for 1 round. You may re-roll 1 save during this time.")


I don't want to completely bar spamming re-rolls. Maybe each subsequent roll is made a cumalitive -1? You can burn all of them at once looking for that natural 20, but might not make it no matter how hard you try. I want people to worry about running out of this, maybe avoid using it on certain rolls, but also be able to make saves, fairly reliably, when they really need to.



It's not so much meta as in "weird and handwavey", but meta as in you spend 2 minutes digging now and that affects your capability to plan as of this morning. I can't even plug my ears and call it magic, because it's explicitly stated as the fighter's nonmagical ability to pack things.


I think its the fighter digging through the pack to find the perfect solution they know they tucked away somewhere. So their water bottle is on top of the bag, but maybe there's something at the bottom they totally forgot about, or never thought they'd need until now... oh wait, its just moldy beef jerky.

It reflects that, the more prepared the Fighter is, the more gear they actually carry, the harder it can be to find the thing they actually need.

But yeah, its pretty meta. There may be a way to sorta smooth that out a bit



It's also weird that a smarter fighter packs rarer objects. That seems like it should be a scavenging thing, or at least tied to money somehow. Of course it's decently functional so if you don't want to change the mechanic then I'm still OK with the class.

I missed that bit in the rules. Good by me.


I imagine for some fighters it could be characterized as scavenging, some its super planning (since players aren't likely to pull totally random and useless items out of their pack and waste the gp... but of course, many will), maybe they're just really lucky and always pack the perfect gear.

Smarter fighters pack rarer gear because it takes smarts to realize you're gonna need and then track down, say, seven mummified squirrels, or an entire backpack full of alchemists fire. Most people don't carry an entire backpack full of alchemists fire, and for them, thats a 'smart' decision, but the fighter knows that sometimes you need to be a walking fireball waiting to get jostled. They have literally thought of this precise scenario with the giant troll, and they brought just the gear to deal with it... because they're Smart.




Right, but that's not big enough for 11th level. At level 11, I need ballistaes for sieges.


I was actually thinking of a tree where they got the ability to call on followers, supply armies, and command minions, all as a sort of State Authoritively mechanic. I was worried it was too much, which is probably silly. So instead of the Marshall's auras, the Fighter is just... super prepared. Ready to supply an army, work out the logistics of marching and feeding all of them, but not necessarily the best guy to be doing motivational speeches. Just: Has A Plan.

They could still have the Bag, for personal goodies.



Never Outnumbered is available at a high level because WotC is bad at feat balance. It's level-appropriate for people around 3-5. It also directly clashes with the fighter's schtick in an unprecedented way (as in, you haven't cared about charisma until level 11. That's strange), so most players are likely to ignore it.


Yeah, I'll put 'never outnumbered' at a lower level, and maybe make a special so that Intimidate and Bluff are based of Intelligence for the fighter. Makes sense?

They do get other intimidate (and thus Charisma), though. They get Extended Intimidation at 5th level, and Swift Demoralization at 9th. So its a legit (if minor) trick hidden in the fighter's build.



You're severely overestimating casters and/or underestimating the potential of this class. First, hitting is super easy because AC scales atrociously and to-hit scales fantastically. Second, this is per-attack and not per-standard-action, meaning the fighter can take a 1-level dip, pick up a feat chain, or just get haste and pounce fools for 2+ attacks dealing something in the realm of 3d6 damage apiece. Here (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Barbarian,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)) is an example of a class that gets the same per-attack damage progression and similar god-mode save resilience, but it doesn't get the toolbox of dumpser-divey feats that this fighter will be able to pull out and change up every fight.

Yeah, I see your point. However, a 1-level dip won't let you do that, because at 1st level the strike pool only refreshes per encounter. So you have 1 floating d6 of damage, or a floating +1 to attack, and that's all. It scales up, and you get new ways of recharging it (I've taken out the ridiculous per-hit and changed it to crits only), but its basically 10d6 max at a time, and that's if you don't use any of it for bonuses to hit. Which you're right, at this level you shouldn't have to, you should be hitting a lot anyway. Fighters at this level will probably be spending their to-hit points on their secondary attacks anyway, or yeah, sinking it all in damage. But remember, if you spend the dice it can be hard to get them back.

So this barbarian is actually piling on a lot more damage in a short period of time, but its less flexible in terms of when that damage can be used. Which fits the design goals of both classes.

Or, actually, I think you mean, the fighter could take a 1-level dip in another class? I'm confused. In any case, do you think the new, more limited recharge rates help deal with that? If not enough, what else could help?





You can keep the class this way, because simplicity is a legitimate design philosophy, but IMO it's better to have a class that doesn't make people want to put down their character sheet and play Smash Bros.

:)

Simplicity is a sword. The design is very sparse, but you can refine it, and it can take you crazy places.

If you want to play Smash, you know, there are other classes that can give you all the complicated choices you want. I'm not trying to clone them, although I like the design of those too.

Just to Browse
2013-12-13, 06:28 PM
Yeah, because I wouldnt' want you to have to use Tactics to get these, because then you'll never use tactics on anything else, and whats the point of the ability then?Right now, tactics just looks like "top X feats of my favored feat chain, and feats I need for martial PrCs" actually. But your reasoning is also good--again, I recommend spelling out that the player gets Shock Trooper, Elusive Target, etc. as specific bonus feats so that you don't have the shock trooper class feature and still have to pick up the shock trooper feat to qualify for prestige classes.


They've already got the full-round to refresh their Tactics. Making a full-round ability for strikes would work as well. I just... I like the feel of it as a more dynamic ability, like you need to use it to get more of it (and risk using it up, and running on fumes for awhile).

Maybe 3 rounds to focus, like an assasin's death attack, but you know, not sucky. Or... a full round, and a concentration check to meditate. But that could be a feat. A Longer refresh times means the mechanic becomes less dynamic. If you need to spend 3 full rounds charging up to get a whole +3d6 per-attack at level 5, you're never going to do that.

Of course, if you just want the crappy recharge mechanic to incentivize the fighter to stick around in fights, then you'll need to give the additional refresh mechanics a lot earlier. For example, a 3-round charge time means the fighter will never want to recharge that way in combat, but adding a standard attack focus recovery at level 1 (a la warblade) would allow the fighter to expend and recharge focus quickly in fights will still having it up outside each fight.


I don't want to completely bar spamming re-rolls. Maybe each subsequent roll is made a cumalitive -1? You can burn all of them at once looking for that natural 20, but might not make it no matter how hard you try. I want people to worry about running out of this, maybe avoid using it on certain rolls, but also be able to make saves, fairly reliably, when they really need to.Lots of re-rolls on a per-day limit is rather toxic for gameplay, so if you want the fighter to reliably make saves when he needs to, then you should do something like fighting styles (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Monk,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)#Fighting_Style) that take action economy investment and last one round. You could make it an immediate action, and then inflict fatigue later if you wanted to make it more of an Emergency Button.


Smarter fighters pack rarer gear because it takes smarts to realize you're gonna need and then track down, say, seven mummified squirrels, or an entire backpack full of alchemists fire. Most people don't carry an entire backpack full of alchemists fire, and for them, thats a 'smart' decision, but the fighter knows that sometimes you need to be a walking fireball waiting to get jostled. They have literally thought of this precise scenario with the giant troll, and they brought just the gear to deal with it... because they're Smart."I'm so trained in dungeoneering I remembered to buy a scrying orb!"
"Dude, I told you to get a scrying orb five levels ago."
"Yeah, but I wasn't high-level enough--I mean smart enough to remember to pack a scrying orb."


I was actually thinking of a tree where they got the ability to call on followers, supply armies, and command minions, all as a sort of State Authoritively mechanic. I was worried it was too much, which is probably silly. So instead of the Marshall's auras, the Fighter is just... super prepared. Ready to supply an army, work out the logistics of marching and feeding all of them, but not necessarily the best guy to be doing motivational speeches. Just: Has A Plan.That could be good as well.


Yeah, I'll put 'never outnumbered' at a lower level, and maybe make a special so that Intimidate and Bluff are based of Intelligence for the fighter. Makes sense?

They do get other intimidate (and thus Charisma), though. They get Extended Intimidation at 5th level, and Swift Demoralization at 9th. So its a legit (if minor) trick hidden in the fighter's build.It requires a separate action economy investment and isn't supported by any of the fighter's other class features--the fighter might just use it to scare goblins for funsies, but it contribute to combats about 5% as well as straight-up attacking.


Or, actually, I think you mean, the fighter could take a 1-level dip in another class? I'm confused. In any case, do you think the new, more limited recharge rates help deal with that? If not enough, what else could help?Yeah, that's what I was going for. Lion Spirit Totem barb, mulhorandi divine minion, two-weapon pounce, boots of haste, any item of that psionic pounce thing. The recharge method you choose will determine if the bonus damage is too much or too little.


If you want to play Smash, you know, there are other classes that can give you all the complicated choices you want. I'm not trying to clone them, although I like the design of those too.I'm not talking about complicated things, I'm talking about interesting things. Ideally, there should be more than 1 viable option (hopefully 2-3) for a character to do in any given round, but as-is the fighter's combat schtick looks to be the same as any other noncasting brute.

Also, I've noticed the differentiation between melee and ranged strikers. There's really no need for that, especially for a class whose defining roll is "good at fighting".

urkthegurk
2013-12-14, 06:44 PM
What if you could use the Strike Pool for different things? Like bonuses (Dice?) to movement-oriented skills for starters, and intimidate.

Actually, tying 'Grit' to the Strike pool might be a good way of providing some control over it.

D-naras
2013-12-14, 07:11 PM
Yeah, that's good. Rename Strike as Grit, because it sounds better. Grit can be used for everything the old Strike could do and refreshes the same way, but whenever you use Grit for rerolls and other similarly strong effects, reduce the Grit pool by 1 die for the rest of the day. So a level 2 Fighter that rerolls a save can't gain bonus on attack and damage for the rest of the day. A 19 level Fighter can reroll up to 10 times. Maybe make another mechanic to regain expended Grit.

Just to Browse
2013-12-14, 11:12 PM
Either way works, neither is particularly detrimental. It's all about how you want the fighter to play. Multiple class features that play of the same resource gives players a lot more combo opportunities in general, while using pure action costs or fatigue tends to make the player feel more like they're using a "toolbox" with whatever covers the situation.